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Ross
09-22-2004, 04:03 PM
With the latest Detroit convictions overturned, Ashcroft has not convicted a single person of terrorism since 9/11.

On Sept. 2 a federal judge in Detroit threw out the only jury conviction the Justice Department has obtained on a terrorism charge since 9/11.
...
Until that reversal, the Detroit case had marked the only terrorist conviction obtained from the Justice Department's detention of more than 5,000 foreign nationals in anti-terrorism sweeps since 9/11. So Ashcroft's record is 0 for 5,000. When the attorney general was locking these men up in the immediate wake of the attacks, he held almost daily press conferences to announce how many "suspected terrorists" had been detained. No press conference has been forthcoming to announce that exactly none of them have turned out to be actual terrorists.

From http://www.alternet.org/rights/19948/

Qtec
09-22-2004, 04:46 PM
"The Detroit case was extremely weak from the outset. The government could never specify exactly what terrorist activity was allegedly being planned and never offered any evidence linking the defendants to al Qaeda. Its case consisted almost entirely of a pair of sketches and a videotape, described by an FBI agent as "casing materials" for a terrorist plot, and the testimony of a witness of highly dubious reliability seeking a generous plea deal. It now turns out that the prosecution failed to disclose to the defense evidence that other government experts did not consider the sketches and videotape to be terrorist casing materials at all and that the government's key witness had admitted to lying."

Makes you wonder how this ever got to trial, never mind how they got a conviction!

Q

Qtec
09-22-2004, 05:12 PM
Just in,

"SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The military on Wednesday dropped an espionage charge against a Muslim interpreter accused of spying at the camp for terror detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The development marks the third Guantanamo spy case to fall apart this year, despite vows by Attorney General John Ashcroft and military officials to prosecute the alleged threats to the nation's security.

The charge against Senior Airman Ahmad Al Halabi was dropped in exchange for his guilty plea to four ``minor infractions,'' said defense lawyer Donald Rehkopf Jr.

Specifically, he admitted to taking two photos of his workplace and lying about taking those pictures. He also brought a classified document home without locking it up, which led to a guilty plea to a charge of ``conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline.''

Kevin Barry, a former military judge, says the government overreacted in all four cases.

``They saw a conspiracy, they saw spying, treason virtually, when most of what was going on was apparently quite innocent,'' Barry said. ``Some of those law enforcement folks can see a conspiracy if two people are talking on the phone.'' "

Q

Cueless Joey
09-22-2004, 06:20 PM
Well, at least we're showing the world our courts are not biased. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Joey~Wonders where else in the world does the government get clobbered in court~

Ross
09-22-2004, 09:53 PM
I agree. We have pretty damn good courts compared to most of the rest of the world. Still have a way to go though. I know from personal experience.

But if the courts are fair and none of the 5000 people Ashcroft detained were found guilty what does that say for this administrations ability to actually recognize real terrorists? And if many of them were actually guilty, then what does this say about this administrations ability to get the bad guys? Either way, Bush's chosen man Ashcroft comes across as pretty incompetent.

eg8r
09-23-2004, 07:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I agree. We have pretty damn good courts compared to most of the rest of the world. Still have a way to go though. I know from personal experience.

But if the courts are fair and none of the 5000 people Ashcroft detained were found guilty what does that say for this administrations ability to actually recognize real terrorists? And if many of them were actually guilty, then what does this say about this administrations ability to get the bad guys? Either way, Bush's chosen man Ashcroft comes across as pretty incompetent. <hr /></blockquote> I will you what this means...It means we have spent a boatload of money and still have not caught the bad guys. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

eg8r

highsea
09-23-2004, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>I will you what this means...It means we have spent a boatload of money and still have not caught the bad guys. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>Oh, we've caught a bunch of'em, we just haven't convicted them yet. Moussaoui, The Shoe Bomber, the guy who had the dirty bomb plot, the money launderers in Texas, Martha Stewart, etc. Oh wait, Martha Stewart was convicted. The soldier from Fort Lewis was just convicted a couple days ago. The FBI shares intel with Pakistan, the UK, France, Spain, Germany, Indonesia, etc. There have been arrests and convictions in most, if not all of those countries, with assistance from the FBI.

The flaky cases get most of the attention, of course. The media loves to criticize. How do you get a terrorist conviction from a videotape of a bridge or a building? You can't. So those cases get the spotlight. And cases like the one in the OP, that were just flubbed, well they really get attention.

You know what standard of proof is needed in the US courts. Have you ever known someone who got away with something because it couldn't be proven? Most of the people detained were held as material witnesses, and not charged with a crime anyway. We just wanted to know what they knew.

There is no way to measure how effective the FBI has been in disrupting plots. When they're abandoned, you're never going to hear about them. But there was the guy that the customs agent caught smuggling the bomb in from Canada, he was convicted.

So there have been convictions, and there will be more, it just takes time. The legal system moves very slowly, with motion after motion, and a couple months between each one. Hell, the guy who stole my truck last January is still walking around, he hasn't been to trial yet. And that's an open and shut case, the guy was pulled over in my truck with stolen plates on it!

-CM

Ross
09-23-2004, 04:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>I will you what this means...It means we have spent a boatload of money and still have not caught the bad guys. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>Oh, we've caught a bunch of'em, we just haven't convicted them yet. Moussaoui, The Shoe Bomber,... -CM <hr /></blockquote>

Actually I think a stewardess caught the Shoe Bomber. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec
09-24-2004, 03:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The soldier from Fort Lewis was just convicted a couple days ago. <hr /></blockquote>
That was surely a massive blow to Al Q.!??????

[ QUOTE ]
SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- Military prosecutors agreed to drop an espionage charge against a Muslim interpreter accused of spying at the camp for terror detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, his defense attorney said Wednesday.

Senior Airman Ahmad Al Halabi has pleaded guilty to four "minor infractions," his attorney, Donald Rehkopf Jr., said. Halabi admitted to taking two photos of his workplace and lying about taking those pictures.

He also brought a classified document home without locking it up, which led to a fourth guilty plea, to a charge of "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline."
<hr /></blockquote>


"Oh, we've caught a bunch of'em, we just haven't convicted them yet. Moussaoui, The Shoe Bomber, the guy who had the dirty bomb plot,"

[ QUOTE ]
Mukasey set a hearing for 3:15 p.m. Wednesday to consider Newman's motion.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said earlier Tuesday that Padilla -- who also goes by the name of Abdullah Al Muhajir -- may never face trial.

"Our interest is not in trying him and punishing him," Rumsfeld said. "Our interest is in finding out what he knows."

U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft said Padilla would be treated as an "enemy combatant" of the United States, a move that means he has fewer legal rights than an ordinary defendant in a criminal case. As an "enemy combatant," Padilla can be held indefinitely by the military. (Full story)

U.S. officials said the primary information about Padilla came from Abu Zubaydah, the most senior al Qaeda figure captured by U.S. authorities. (Full story)

Newman said that source was troubling.

"A person is being detained on information -- the value of which, the credibility of which, and the reliability of which, we don't know," Newman told reporters after a hearing in federal court.

But Rumsfeld, speaking during a stopover in Qatar on his way to India, said Padilla "was unquestionably involved in terrorist activities."

President Bush branded Padilla a "bad guy" on Tuesday, saying he was one of many "would-be killers" in custody as part of the war against terrorism.

"This guy, Padilla, is a bad guy," Bush said as he met with lawmakers at the White House to discuss his proposal for a Department of Homeland Security. "And he is where he needs to be -- detained." (Full story)

Padilla is being held at the Consolidated Naval Brig in Charleston, South Carolina, apart from the regular brig population.

Officials said the plot had not advanced beyond the discussion stage, and he has not been charged with any crime.
<font color="blue"> "It certainly wasn't at the point of having a specific target," Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said. "He had indicated some knowledge of the Washington, D.C., area, but I want to emphasize again there was not an actual plan. We stopped this man in the initial planning stages."</font color>

<hr /></blockquote>


So, basically, an American citizen is thrown in jail, kept in solitary and denied his rights because a captured terrorist says he was THINKING about maybe doing something that would be illegal!!!!!!



Q.

highsea
09-24-2004, 07:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> The soldier from Fort Lewis was just convicted a couple days ago. <hr /></blockquote>
That was surely a massive blow to Al Q.!??????

SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- Military prosecutors agreed to drop an espionage charge against a Muslim interpreter accused of spying at the camp for terror detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, his defense attorney said Wednesday.

Senior Airman Ahmad Al Halabi has pleaded guilty to four "minor infractions," his attorney, Donald Rehkopf Jr., said. Halabi admitted to taking two photos of his workplace and lying about taking those pictures.

He also brought a classified document home without locking it up, which led to a fourth guilty plea, to a charge of "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline."
<hr /></blockquote>
Q.<hr /></blockquote> you got the wrong story here Q. This guy is from gitmo

Qtec
09-24-2004, 08:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
accused of spying at the camp for terror detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, <hr /></blockquote>

?????

Q

highsea
09-24-2004, 08:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>?????

Q <hr /></blockquote>SEATTLE (Reuters) - A U.S. soldier was sentenced to life in prison on Friday after his conviction on charges he tried to aid al Qaeda by detailing ways to destroy U.S. weapons and kill soldiers to undercover agents, the Army said.

National guardsman Spc. Ryan Anderson, 27, was convicted on all five counts of attempted treason and related charges by nine officers in a court-martial that ended late on Thursday.

"He was sentenced to confinement for life with possibility of parole and a dishonorable discharge, with reduction to the rank of private," the Army said in a statement on Friday.

Defense attorneys had argued at the start of the court martial, which began on Monday in Fort Lewis, 50 miles south of Seattle, that Anderson suffered from a mental disorder that gave him grand visions of his own importance that led him to lie and seek out representatives of al Qaeda, blamed for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

Anderson, a tank loader, was scheduled to ship out to Iraq in February when he began posting messages on extremist Muslim Web sites seeking to contact al Qaeda, prosecutors said.

He was caught after undercover agents posing as al Qaeda operatives contacted Anderson, who passed on diagrams of M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams battle tanks with instructions on their vulnerabilities.

Anderson, who also called himself Amir Abdul Rashid, did not testify in the court-martial, but asked for mercy and apologized to his family and his country in pre-sentencing testimony, Army officials said.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&amp;storyID=6148899&amp;src =rss/topNews&amp;section=news

Qtec
09-24-2004, 09:12 AM
The guy is obviously mentaly ill.

The next line in the article [ which you left out] was this;
" In earlier hearings, Anderson's lawyer insisted much of the technical information the enlisted man provided was unclassified and relatively easy to find. "

Just do a google on -M1A2 Abrams battle tanks , or check out http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm.
The article on 'Lessons learned from the Gulf war'is very interesting. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/abrams-oif.ppt [ PP presentation]

Another major blow for Al Q?
I dont think so.

Q [ from the PP.]
NO catastrophic losses due to Iraqi direct or indirect fire weapons
Several tanks were destroyed due to secondary effects attributed to enemy weapon systems
Majority of losses attributed to mechanical breakdown and vehicle either being stripped for parts or severely vandalized by Iraqi people
No reported case of an AGTM ever being fired at any U.S. Army vehicle
No Kornet missiles found in country

Frontal turret and hull armor continues to provide excellent crew protection. Top, side, and rear armor remains susceptible to penetration
Documented instances where 25mm AP-DU and above ammunition disabled a tank from the rear
Left and right side non-ballistic skirts repeatedly penetrated by anti-armor RPG fire
Cosmetic damage only when struck by anti-personnel RPG rounds
No reported hits on ballistic skirts
No reported instance of tank hitting an anti-tank mine

etc,etc,..............

highsea
09-24-2004, 09:42 AM
I don't need to google the Abrams, Q.

The guy was a tanker. You don't know what information he tried to pass on, and you know nothing about his mental state. I also don't care what his defense lawyer says, his job is to try to get the guy off. The mentally ill claim is just a legal tactic, until proven otherwise.

Prosecutors make their claims, the defense makes theirs. The court determines the truth, based on the evidence presented by both sides.

Obviously the court-martial disagreed with the defense lawyers, or they wouldn't have given him life on 5 counts.