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05-14-2002, 09:25 PM
Savers

This weekend F1 driver Michael Schumacher was booed to kingdom com because his team (Ferrari) decided that it would be a good idea to have their other driver move out of the way so their golden child could get the W. Ferrari defiantly underestimated what the reaction would be, so far their stock prices have dropped, sponsors are talking about pulling out of the team, F1 is talking about suspensions and Schumacher is being raked over the coals by fans and non-fans alike. Predetermined, just like WWF.
Yet this same event happens all the time at pool tournaments. Why actually play for the money when you can just split it up and go play an exhibition, why give the paying fans the show they deserve when you can just go knock balls around the table for a few hours. If I paid to get in I'd be pretty PO'd. Stuff like this happens even at small local tourneys, two buddies have to play each other early, What happens? Player A says to Player B I'll let you win if you give me 25% of your action. How is this fair to the other people in the tournament? Now it even gets worse if there is a Calcutta involved, Player A has part of Player B. I own Player A. The two play, what happens? I get screwed is what happens. This isn't something that happens once in a while. This happens all the time. It's not just shortstops and unknown pros that this goes on with, many well known players have savers going on all over the place. Betting on other players, dumping so they can make a few dollars. These same people dumped an entire tourney just so they could make some money. Sickening,.And this is just the stuff that we see. I don't even want to know what happens at those $50,000 winner take all deals, I wouldn't be surprised if all the players are just splitting and taking an appearance fee. Pool = WWF
There is a reason that all other sports have rules in place about gambling. It's so when Phil Mickelson hits it into the water on the 18th you know it's because he made a mistake, not because he has $100,000 riding on Tiger Woods to win the tournament.
And these same players have the nerve to wonder why they have such a shoddy image. Perhaps they need to look in the mirror.

Krusty

05-14-2002, 09:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Krusty:</font><hr> Savers
Krusty
<hr></blockquote>

i agree with every word. any ideas on cures??

dan

05-14-2002, 09:32 PM
Okay. I'm not sure we've reached WWF staus yet (don't get me started) but I agree with the theory. Gambling should definately be a no-no for the pros, but I'm not sure that it applies to the locals. After all, sometimes the finalists 'do business' just because they're tired and need to go to work the next day.

05-14-2002, 10:50 PM
In the pro ranks, money is the answer, but it doesn't really matter. There's not enough of it around, and not much more in sight. Pool has a bad reputation that it has pretty well earned, and good sponsors - in general - are not going to touch it. How many men are making a good living playing pool? Maybe twenty in the whole world. I fly to Louisville to see a top tournament in a great facility, and about half the players there are not able to support themselves (and their habits). If the stakehorse dies during the night, they will have to leave the motel by the window. If you devote your life to playing pool, poverty is a good bet unless you are one of the very best. Gambling is going to happen and 'business' will be done. Let's note that the pro golfers, tennis players and even the bowlers no longer butt heads privately for their cash. They get it from the prize lists. Pool players can't do it that way. The money is not there, and we seem to be stuck with it. A successful pro tour needs at least sixty good players, and at least thirty of them good enough to have a chance to win a tournament. With the purses available, there's not a chance.

On the local level the picture is similar. Calcuttas are a crap shoot, but at least you know it when you sign up. Not many Boy Scouts in most of our poolrooms. Here's something to think about - if the proprietors would admit it, they are usually hoping that the ten best players in town never show up. Pool is a great game with a lot of great people in it. But it's not much of an occupation.

Rod
05-15-2002, 01:12 AM
Quote Lorri, After all, sometimes the finalists 'do business' just because they're tired and need to go to work the next day."

Yes they do Lorri and I've done it at times, split that is. Some rooms decide they want to keep everyone there. There's one place here that makes a habit of keeping people very late. That is BS and should I be there at the end it's a split. There isn't a calcutta.

cueball1950
05-15-2002, 07:48 AM
i like this post...reminds me of a story that floated around a few years back..now remember..it was just a story.....they had a $50,000 winner take all some place in nevada.either reno or vegas. the casino even set odds. was suppose to be 8 of the top players in the country. Spanish Mike Lebron was the longest shot on the board. Guess who won the tournament. Mike Lebron....Makes you wonder does'nt it, just some random thoughts.....mike

heater451
05-15-2002, 09:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Krusty:</font><hr> Savers

This weekend F1 driver Michael Schumacher was booed to kingdom com because his team (Ferrari) decided that it would be a good idea to have their other driver move out of the way so their golden child could get the W. Ferrari defiantly underestimated what the reaction would be, so far their stock prices have dropped, sponsors are talking about pulling out of the team, F1 is talking about suspensions and Schumacher is being raked over the coals by fans and non-fans alike. Predetermined, just like WWF.

Krusty<hr></blockquote>

I don't know what the points standings were for the F1 season, but please note that the occasional jockeying of position in auto (and motorcycle) racing is necessary.

Sometimes, a racer in winning position will allow his teammate to pass, if that person requires the extra position points, in order to win a series/season. This is done with the welfare of the TEAM in mind, and not for 'glory-hogging'.

I can't remember the details, but I do recall an event in which a racer did the exact opposite of what you described. Instead of allowing his teammate to pass, a he took a checkered flag in a race, which cost the team dearly, because his teammate was high enough in the points standings to possibly take the season. By taking the points away from his teammate, the driver made it harder for his teammate to (possibly) win the season.

The phrase "taking one for the team" applies here.

Ross
05-15-2002, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Krusty:</font><hr> Savers

Stuff like this happens even at small local tourneys, two buddies have to play each other early, What happens? Player A says to Player B I'll let you win if you give me 25% of your action. How is this fair to the other people in the tournament?
Krusty
<hr></blockquote>
How is this particular behavior unfair to the other players? With or without the "fix" either player A or B would advance, so it doesn't give the pair an overall advantage against the rest of the field. If they play their match straight up, the player who is playing better that night is likely to win. If the fix is on, it is 50-50 the weaker player that night will advance. Which would you rather play if you are the next opponent? I guess you could argue that the "fix" would allow them to rest since they don't have to concentrate, but the probably stronger counterpoint to that is that they don't get the competitive warmup they would have if they played straight up. The only "unfairness" in this scenario is that the winner of the match would be playing to win 25% less than everyone else thought he/she was playing for. That's hardly worth thinking about.
Note that I'm not debating the point of your post. But I think worrying about this particular non-scam "scam" is a bit paranoid.

PoolFan
05-15-2002, 12:49 PM
Right, that was the first Challenge of Champions and you are exactly right, Lebron won and the fix was believed to be in place.

I do agree that at a Pro level, the "Saver" is cheating the spectators of a true match. At a lesser level, I hate seeing these types of deals when the better player is trying to avoid being promoted out of his/her class such as a "C" avoiding being moved to a "B". But there are times where I feel a "Saver" is OK and I have participated in them. For instance, two players in the finals split the pot to end a long day.

The real issue is, as houstondan mentions, how do you resolve this problem. It's very difficult. Who's to say a player dumpped on purpose or not. Let's face it, this does happen in all individual sports at one time or another.

As for the scenario of the auto racing, what is the purpose of having racing TEAMS, if a team member can't let another team member win. Isn't this the idea of a team, to better the team, not just the individual?

heater451
05-15-2002, 01:19 PM
I believe that you are right, about it being kinda paranoid.

However, with a "fix" on, I believe that it would be in the better players favor most of the time, so it would remove the 'luck' factor, from getting to match up against the weaker player. Of course, you are still correct, in that it would still come down to how good you are anyway.

I also think that there would be a greater effect from dumped games in a round-robin style of tournament, where total number of games won contributes to advancement, rather than winner-of-match.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-15-2002, 04:44 PM
This is so common place its almost accepted practice. There aren't any rules against it... but if there were a bookie present and they had the inside dope.. really bad things could happen..

You got the symtom down.. now what do you propose for the cure?

Harold Acosta
05-15-2002, 07:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Krusty:</font><hr> Savers

There is a reason that all other sports have rules in place about gambling. It's so when Phil Mickelson hits it into the water on the 18th you know it's because he made a mistake, not because he has $100,000 riding on Tiger Woods to win the tournament.
And these same players have the nerve to wonder why they have such a shoddy image. Perhaps they need to look in the mirror.

Krusty
<hr></blockquote>

Krusty, what makes you think that Mikelson made a mistake and did not really have some action on Tiger?

You gotta be naive, man.....

Harold

cheesemouse
05-15-2002, 08:46 PM
Krusty,
If the highest paid athlete in the world, Michael Schumacher, can justify chopping the money or trophy why can't a couple lowly pool players who are probably sharing a cheap room and splitting gas money share their winnings. If the best case scenario is they play for the one and two spots and get to play for the trophy the spectators most likey are in for a treat: two good pool players letting out their strokes and enjoying the game for the love of the game. I have seen this and I have participated in this situation and it is my belief that the winner is not predetermined but they play it out with no cash pressure. There is honor for the game but the money is a different story.
When you bring Calcutta action into the equation your in a whole other ball game. This definitely is buyer beware time and if you don't know that going in I'll direct you to the kiddie petting zoo for your entertainment. Calcutta action is for grown-ups who like the action. Most malcontents involved in the Calcutta were the same guys who thought they bought a ringer cheap and then found out their boy couldn't produce at crunch time. Sorry about your luck. Next time step up and buy the pick of the litter for the big dollars and see how you like that action. If you like a good grinding sweat, there you go.
Those $50K winner takes all made for TV joke pool matches are what they are no more no less. The only close comparison I can think of is a prostitute sliding a few crisp $20 away so her pimp doesn't take all her hard earned $$$. You should be mad at the pimp.
Krusty, don't kid yourself about the pro golfers. They bet high and often but know how to keep it amongst themselves. Action is action and it don't discriminate between games. by the way the top golfers have taken the prize money out of play as they have their familys &amp; careers taken care of with the side deals. The ones that don't have their tour cards are down and dirty. It's not just pool that has bad actors but pool as a sport or industry doesn't have 100's of millions of dollars to create a glowing wonderful image for it's top players.
One day I walked into a bathroom and there stood Buddy Hall talking to the mirror and the mirror answered him back "Buddy you could stand to lose a few pounds but I gotta hand it to ya, today you are the best in the world and that young buff athlete your playing can't touch your game, he has too much to learn" Buddy just smiled, cut the cheese and left with a grin on his face.

05-15-2002, 09:02 PM
The Mike Lebron instance was what I was referring to when I said they dumped a whole tournament. It just seems too convenient that the first time that a casino laid odds on a pool tournament that the longest shot would win. Also something to note is no Casino in the U.S. has ever laid odds on a pool event ever again, makes you think that they knew they got burned and it wasn't going to happen again. Once again with the WPC in Cardiff having a round robin at the start with odds being laid on all those matches, I would love to be a fly on the wall in hotel rooms of some of the players. What harm would it do to dump your last 2 or 3 matches if you have already won your first 4 or 5. In a race to five at that level dumping would be as easy as letting the cueball drift out of position once or twice, the opponent will do the rest. A guy could make a few grand easy without anyone ever knowing, just have to give a friend %25 to lay the bet for you. Something though that sickened me even more about the Lebron case. Was at the U.S. Open a couple of years ago one of the high profile players who was involved in the Lebron tourney was complaining to a small group of people that none of the bookies would take bets from him, or any of his friends trying to bet on him or his opponent. There is an old saying in the casino industry, if you want to find out the real story, go see the bookies, they know what is happening in everything. I think this is a case where the bookies knew what went down.

Krusty

05-15-2002, 09:06 PM
Your right K-Y, golf cut out the practice of splitting money along time ago so the competition would exist in its purest form No doubt players will lay off a bet to hegde a loss. It is done all the time by investors, except for the fact that pool is not played at CitiBank or on Wall Street but by a subculture, that is the professional men, that rival a crap game on a blanket in an alley way. Sorry, but pools image is no better than its most unsophisitcated player. Max Factor can not hide its blemishes.

05-15-2002, 09:14 PM
Harold said,

Krusty, what makes you think that Mikelson made a mistake and did not really have
some action on Tiger?

You gotta be naive, man.....

Harold

So let me get this strait. I'm supposed to believe that golfers are possibly throwing away championships to make a few bucks gambling. A few points to ponder.
Why haven't any of the countless golf magazines, newspapers or news shows picked up on this. Why haven't Sports Illustrated that took less than a month to uncover points shaving in college basketball, managed to find out Pete Rose was gambling on baseball and unearthed that the Williams sisters were possibly deciding who would win tournaments found this out.
An organization such as the PGA who in the past have fined and suspended golfers, including Mickelson, for gambling with each other during tournaments have never found any evidence that this is going on.
Are we to believe that players who are making millions would risk throwing it all away to make a few dollars gambling. Don't forget that the PGA has severe punishment in place if they were caught(never being allowed to golf with them again) Remember this is the PGA, not the IOC, they don't let you keep your gold medals when you get caught breaking the rules.
I'm supposed to believe that the PGA, who spend millions of dollars a year promoting it's Image of being good guys, who play for charity don't police themselves.
I'm supposed to believe that that a tour that is almost funded completely by sponsors, sponsors who want to be associated with the PGA tours image would get involved if they even smelled a scandal.
But lastly, I'm supposed to believe that in the last 50 years pro golfers have managed to keep all this a big secret. I believe that the saying is, you can only keep a secret between 3 people if two of them are dead.

Who's being na´ve.

I have no doubt when golfers get together on their days off they probably gamble all night long, I got no problem with that. But once my money, as a spectator, and sponsors money is involved all bets are off.


Krusty

05-15-2002, 09:15 PM
Ross

Perhaps it is being paranoid to want tourneys to be on the up and up from start to finish. It still seems somewhat underhanded to be giving step aside money to people, hate to be challenged. There was a time that I would split with someone in the final but I have new rules for myself that I adopted. No Deals Ever. When do I make a deal. If a guy who I haven't lost to in five years wants to split, do I split with him? What about the guy who I haven't beat in five years. Do I split with him? Do I only split with people that I have little chance of beating. Do I only split with people who are close friends? What if I split one week am I not inclined to split the next week. Seems a lot easier to just play out everything and live with how the chips fall. What is more satisfying, going home and telling the wife that you won a tourney. Or going home and telling the wife that you made the final but you didn't want to gamble that $50 to find out who would win the tournament. If you never put yourself in pressure situations than you will never excel under pressure. And ending a long day, I'll go to work a little tired happier than a pig in filth if a win a tournament. Sure if you lose, the extra fifty bucks might be nice, but not as nice as the feeling of winning would have been. The original post was more about professional pool, but to me this is a much more interesting subject. Who do you make deals with?

Krusty

05-16-2002, 12:18 AM
I agree with every word of this post. As long as savers are considered routine and acceptable, this sport can not succeed. As long as the players don't see that the spectators are being cheated when they are playing for fun instead of for real, there is little hope for this game to become a bigger draw. Of course there are a lot of other things that need to be fixed too.

05-16-2002, 12:51 AM
Cheesemouse said

If the best case scenario is they play for the one and two spots and get to play for the trophy the spectators most likey are in for a treat: two good pool players letting out their strokes and enjoying the game for the love of the game. I have seen this and I have participated in this situation and it is my belief that the winner is not predetermined but they play it out with no cash pressure. There is honor for the game but the money is a
different story.

Is watching two pro pool players play without any pressure on them really that exciting. So they get to let their strokes out, big deal. 9-ball is boring enough to watch as is without taking the pressure off. Now it is just an exhibition of how to run out. I watched some of that snooker final that someone posted a link too. What was more exciting, the first few frames where both players didn't miss a shot. Or the last few frames where both players games broke down under the pressure. Just watch the crowd, the first few frames their sort of into it. The last few frames though they are on the edge of their seat. The fans didn't know when the guys would miss or who would win, suspenseful.

And then Cheesemouse said

When you bring Calcutta action into the equation your in a whole other ball game.
This definitely is buyer beware time and if you don't know that going in I'll direct you
to the kiddie petting zoo for your entertainment. Calcutta action is for grown-ups
who like the action. Most malcontents involved in the Calcutta were the same guys who thought they bought a ringer cheap and then found out their boy couldn't
produce at crunch time. Sorry about your luck. Next time step up and buy the pick of the litter for the big dollars and see how you like that action. If you like a good
grinding sweat, there you go.

I like action, but I like action that is fair. According to you it doesn't matter if people get cheated as long as its not you getting screwed. What about the person who paid big bucks for Strickland only to lose his money when Strickland didn't like the rules of the tournament and decided to leave, does he belong on the kiddie farm. How many people have bought Cliff J in a Calcutta only to soon find out that Cliff owns parts of other people and none of himself. I hope you have a lot of animals in your zoo because it will be full by the time everyone who has been screwed in a Calcutta gets there. The moment players start to own other players in the tournament it becomes a gangsters paradise. If you consider this just part of the game I really don't know what to say.

Krusty

Rod
05-16-2002, 01:18 AM
Krusty what position was the other driver in? It only makes sense that you let your team mate win. F1 is not the only auto sport that this happens. In F1 however the team stands to win millions of dollars. In auto racing drivers protect their position and their team mate. Blocking any others is standard. Nothing new here. It's the same game except F1 is on a much higher level.

cheesemouse
05-16-2002, 05:06 AM
Krusty,
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>9-ball is boring enough to watch as is without taking the pressure off. Now it is just an exhibition of how to run out. I watched some of that snooker final that someone posted a link too.<hr></blockquote> So your solution is.............we convert American pool to snooker???
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>I like action, but I like action that is fair. According to you it doesn't matter if people get cheated as long as its not you getting screwed. What about the person who paid big bucks for Strickland only to lose his money when Strickland didn't like the rules of the tournament and decided to leave, does he belong on the kiddie farm.<hr></blockquote> As a matter of fact Earl does belong on a petting farm and the price you pay for Earl should have that fact figured in to your bid on him. Like in all betting someone thinks they know something the other guy doesn't and they are willing to place $$$ on it that my friend will never change, you may convert American to snookers, and good luck on that, but you ain't gonna change the reason people put there money down. Given that you have this info about Cliff Joyner it should lead you to deal with him accordingly...Like I said "if you don't like Calcutta action stay away from it". Bookies and Odds makers use inside info to lay their odds you should use your seemingly inside pool knowledge to your advantage be that what it may.

P.S. I think Earl is on his way to the Zoo now after getting thumped by my buddy Lee H.

05-16-2002, 05:25 AM
Cheesemouse said:

Those $50K winner takes all made for TV joke pool matches are what they are no
more no less. The only close comparison I can think of is a prostitute sliding a few
crisp $20 away so her pimp doesn't take all her hard earned $$$. You should be mad
at the pimp.

Interesting comparison, let's look into this some more. 50k matches are a joke. Did you watch the final of Chao-Bustamante? That was quite possibly the best televised pool match in U.S.(ESPN anyways) history. You compare the promoters of this event to a pimp. You must know some very generous pimps. Here is a promotion that is willing to give 50k to a select pool player. Remember now that since Camel has left the pool world no one has exactly been banging down the door to give sponsorship of any kind to pool. 1 in 8 odds of a player walking out with 50k, wow hookers do have it good. But of course the players must have be forced to attend this event, Right? The promoters went to all their houses and held a gun to their heads. Must have, why else would they even get out of bed for that type of chicken feed. Don't kid yourself, most pool players like their lives. They enjoy waking up at noon, gambling all night and then doing again the next day. If they want to piss and moan because a promoter is only willing to give 50k to them they should go get jobs like the rest of us, or promote their own tournaments and find their own sponsors. The promoter who put on this event deserves an honest effort from the players involved, that is what they are paying for.

For a person who is so interested in starting his own pro tour I'm somewhat interested in where you plan on finding your 50k added money, since you make it sound like it is so easy.

Krusty

cheesemouse
05-16-2002, 10:06 AM
Krusty,
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Interesting comparison, let's look into this some more. 50k matches are a joke. Did you watch the final of Chao-Bustamante?<hr></blockquote> Yes I did and will probably watch it 14 more times before the next two years are up. It is a joke in respect that they could gather eight top pool players from around the world for an outside chance at the the $50K. $50K won't get you one tour card holding PGA golfer to come and hit a bucket of balls at your member/guest at the local Country Club let alone eight top PGA golfers.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Don't kid yourself, most pool players like their lives. They enjoy waking up at noon, gambling all night and then doing again the next day. If they want to piss and moan because a promoter is only willing to give 50k to them they should go get jobs like the rest of us, or promote their own tournaments and find their own sponsors.<hr></blockquote>
Krusty, are you trying to say that world class pool players are not worthy because they are world class??? Just because they don't have full time jobs at IBM they have character flaws???... If one has a passion for a game and wishs to be good at it, he/she must go to the training grounds and take the lumps; pools training grounds are 40 miles of bad road before you come out the other side as a champion. Sad as that maybe for the image of the game that is where you get your tour card. You can't get there by playing in your rec/room and then coming out a few times a year and playing in events that require participants to have notes from their bosses to prove that they have real jobs before they can enter.
Maybe when you start 'your' tour you can name it THE NOT SO GOOD POOL PLAYERS CAUSE THEY HAVE REAL JOBS AND CAN PROVE IT TOUR. The promo's can read NO RACKS RUN HERE.

Troy
05-16-2002, 05:33 PM
What Pro Pool, or ANY Pool for that matter, really needs to be rid of the likes of Strickland. His childish temper trantrums and exhibitions of extremely poor sportmanship is a disgrace.

To even consider Strickland for the Hall of Fame, now or in the foreseeable future, is a travesty and an insult to all those with respect for this sport.

There has been discussion of a "Code of Ethics". A good start would be to deal with Strickland.

What is really needed is a TD with the guts and backing to throw the bum out.

Troy

Tom_In_Cincy
05-16-2002, 05:57 PM
Troy,
I think you need to let it all out.. don't hold it back.. tell us exactly what you feel.. about EArl.

I have seen Earl play lots of times in the last 25 years.. up close and personal.. sitting right next to him on a few occasions.

Earl isn't as bad as other Pro Players.. its just that Earl is the highest ranked, and better skilled and has won more tournaments than the other jerks that are even worse than what you think about Earl.

When Earl is in the tournament.. TD's can smile and know that the audience will be there to see HIM.. PLAY.. and be a jerk..

Earl is the draw.. all TD's want..

And.. Earl will be in the Hall Of Fame.. regardless what you or I think about him as a person.. the HOF is for great pool players.. and that, by any measure, is where Earl Strickland is headed.

05-16-2002, 05:58 PM
I think all pool needs to get rid of is all the critics. People that make themselfs feel better by joking people like Earl Strickland. He is a very good thing for pool. People that critize people for making a few mistakes in there life. So thats what pool needs to get rid of.

05-16-2002, 06:28 PM
It's the color, taste, and smell of mulah,man. How are you going to cure it? Gimme' a break. Enron, Reliant, Dynergy and so on and so on. Cooking the books. Pool players have been doing the Enron boogie since its inception. Like it or leave it. I don't like it but it comes with the territory.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-16-2002, 06:39 PM
Like it or leave it... ?

I am probably the only one in this forum that doesn't want pool to become an other NFL, MLB, NBA, NASCAR or major sport. TV, OWNERS and the PLAYERs have bastardized all the major sports..

I really like it the way it is.. if all the house wives or co-workers knew who Earl Strickland was.. would that make him a better player?

What about all the pool rooms that will have corporate sponser pool teams.. ? too political.

Team Xerox aginst Team FedEX..

YUCK.. all the money would go to the owners, promoters, and some to the players.. and the fans would end up paying for everything.. This sounds good?.. I don't think so..

05-16-2002, 07:13 PM
I'd like to throw my 2-cents in about earl, I personally would pay any amount to see him play a tournament match! what you get with earl is #1 an awsome shotmaker, position player, great break, and all around highly talented player #2 you get someone who truly plays with passion, and yes he does wear hi emotions on his sleeve, good or bad #3 the very bottom line is spectator draw, I was at the 2000 bca tournament , there were a couple of matches I wanted to have my daughter see with me, 1st earl and francisco were playing on the right side of the room, 2nd buddy and rudolpho luat were playing on the left side of the room. the bad thing about the left and right sides were the fact that 20 ft of space and 2 bleachers seperated the sides. obviously we had to choose, and we chose earl's match, now I know this is my personal decision, but 1/2 way through the match, I just happened to look around to take notice that our side of the room was completly standing room only! the other side hardly had anyone over there! this is the very reason why pool needs to have an earl strickland, just like tennis needed a john mcenroe, or boxing a mike tyson, albeit he has gotten really out of hand lately. but you know what, people will still plunk down 50 bucks to see him fight, some to see him get beat up, some to see him lose it, and some to want him to win.
no I submit that earl is good for pool, why do you think barry hearn always will have him in his tournaments, earl draws, period! I love when he holds court in the stands after a match, he says the crazyish stuff, he is a little full of himself, but hey, he back's it up more often than not, sign me an earl fan forever steve

Harold Acosta
05-16-2002, 08:25 PM
Oh, so you are saying that Pro Golfers are the most sqeaky clean players in the world and don't gamble on their own play or others? Come on man! They just haven't been caught. Or who knows? Maybe they have been caught but the silence of the media has been bought? Isn't this a possibility?

Maybe the media is covering up for golf, precisely because of the millions of dollars in it. Maybe if someone can participate of that bunch of cash, silence can be bought!

Who really knows what is up with the media? The media has two sticks to measure people. They blasted Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame but they did not dare go after Michael Jordan, who most probably wagered on his team winnings, just so that Michael would not end like Pete. Banned from Basketball and not being able to get into the Hall of Fame. So doesn't this smell like a coverup? Who covered up this one? The NBA or the media?

I'm certain someone in golf, maybe even so Mickelson, have wagered in tournaments where Tiger Woods is playing. Any type of bet is possible. People who gamble, do so on even the clothes people may wear, or the shoes, the color of the shirt he will show up with, whatever....

I don't care what you say, I'm certain that wagering goes on in golf, just like in any other sport. Pro Golfer may just have a better organization, and may be more on the look out for these things, but again, gambling must be going on....a few couple of thousands doesn't hurt anyone..right?

What the heck, someday, we will probably know for sure.......

Voodoo Daddy
05-16-2002, 08:40 PM
All I can do is thank Steve for posting from his experience, thanks partner. Earl has been and continues to be a major reason people go to watch pro pool. He is, IMO one of the most colorfull, exciting people in our sport and he is on his way to the HOF...no doubt. Thank god for Earl, McEnroe, Tyson and Howard Stern, they give us something to talk about daily.

Voodoo

Harold Acosta
05-16-2002, 08:59 PM
Krusty, If I remember correctly, MiKe Lebron almost lost that tournament. If it were not for the 2-9 or 1-9 combo (can't remember well), which was not easy at all, it could have cost him the tournament. Mike also won an US Open just about that same period. You may be right or you may be wrong (Billy Joel), but I think that tournament was won fair and square but then, I cannot argue about the possibilities of a fix...who knows?, anything is possible.

05-16-2002, 09:39 PM
I'm with you on this one Troy, although I have listened to and can't disagree with Tom's argument. That said however, being a great player does not excuse you from being a decent human being. That's a lesson a lot of folks I know (and know of) should learn, soon.

05-16-2002, 09:40 PM
Dan, could I have a Coke and some fries, please?

stickman
05-16-2002, 10:08 PM
Most people who acquire celebrity status, accept the responsiblity of being a role model, and at least try to conduct themselves appropriately in public. Of course there are exceptions, but I'm certainly not going to look up to someone who acts so childishly, even if he is one of the best professional pool shooters. A grown man who acts like a spoiled brat is certainly no one I want to emulate. Sorry guys, but I have no repect for McEnroe or Tyson either. Like it or not, Earl is on a pedestal and is subject to public scrutiny. This is part of the price one pays for fame. If he's going to represent the best of our sport, I sure wish he would do a better job, cause he sure doesn't represent me acting that way.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-17-2002, 02:33 PM
Lorri,
Earl does do 'good' things. One that I know of personaly, he donated $500 cash to the NY Firefighters and Policeman fund from the 2001 US Open donations.
Earl also has been very approachable for fan autographs, to the point of he always keeps a supply of permanent markers in his cue case for fans that want him to sign shirts or cue cases.. where pens aren't the best writing tool. And, he does take time to pose for pictures..

Just some of the nice things he's done, that don't make it into the pool public's news.

He's still a jerk at the table. I will never dispute this, I've seen it too many times. BUT, he's still not the only one to do these things, he's just the best player that get's all the press...

05-17-2002, 07:18 PM
Indeed? That's funny, because I approached him for an autograph at Valley Forge the first year I went there, and was rather rudely snubbed. I've certainly never forgotten it, and it colors all of my feelings about the guy. And no, I was not at all rude, demanding or any other nasty thing. Even after he turned his back on me.
And $500? So what. No, you're right, I shouldn't say that. It was a generous contribution. I made a contribution as well, that was a little more than I could field at the time, but I figured I'd still have a roof over my head at night. Dr. D contributed that, and got a bunch of business contacts to pony up a whole lot more. Ginky, who has never been known as a fountain of giving, auctioned off HIS PLAYING CUE!!! I've held that cue, and it is quite incredible. It had to have been a HUGE sacrifice to him.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-17-2002, 08:23 PM
Lorri,
Your opinion is based on you personal and public actions of this man.. I too have seen both good and bad sides of Earl. But, and this is important.. He is one hell of a pool players. NO Doubt about that. He deserves to be in the HOF.

We all have contributed to the 9-11 funds, one way or an other.. what Ginky did was great. And, I bought a few of those raffle tickets and then gave them rigth back..

Even if Ginky was given the cue, it was a great gesture.. all the signatures on it and for a great cause.

Sorry for you bad experience with Earl.. I have seen too many times that he would stop and sign anything until there was nothing left to sign and then he would talk pool to anyone and until eveyone was satisfied. Hot and cold.. maybe he handles these sessions differently if he wins or looses..

I am NOT defending him. I think he acks like a jerk when competing.. and have witnessed it first hand, many times. I just think his actions aren't any worse than other players.. its just that he gets the bad press because of his status (being one of the best in the game)

05-17-2002, 09:03 PM
I'm sorry Tom, I really do hate to be disagreeable, but I have NEVER witnessed another player call the audience a bunch of A-holes, I've NEVER witnessed any of them throw balls, chalk, their wife, etc. and I maintain my original position. Efren is arguably the greatest player on the planet, ( Oh Yeah? Well who won the race to 120 in Hong Kong?) and somehow manages to act like a gentleman, so why can't Earl? I understand hot tempers, I myself am possessed of one, but I don't run around ranting and raving because playing conditions don't suit me, or things aren't going my way. This isn't a state of grace I instantly mastered, I used to be mean and nasty, and yell about everything. Then one day I sat back and thought about the consequences of my actions, and what others ( my peers) must think of me. Sorry, but being a self proffessed God on the table does NOT excuse shoddy behavior. Want proof? Take a look at all the little punks in the local pool hall emulating Earl. After all, there's only a tip's difference between they and he , right? ( Hi SS)

Voodoo Daddy
05-17-2002, 09:34 PM
Lorri, I have seen what you have explained as an "Earlism", woofing at the crowd...but only after he was woofed at first. There is no excuse for it nor will I try to maunfacture one. I will say this, I watched Earl get beat by Efren and I watched Earl raise Efren's hand to show the crowd his respect for Efren's apparent talents. I like Earl, I like Efren too...root for both of them but when they play each other I root for Earl.

Voodoo...knows the value of one's opinion

Tom_In_Cincy
05-18-2002, 07:52 AM
Lorri,
We both agree that Earl is a great player.. and that Efern is better at pool and manners.

I am glad you have been successful at 'anger managemnet' at the pool table.. it took me quite a while.. (almost 15 years) to overcome those rediculous tantroms..

Its been a pleasure exchanging thoughts with you..

05-18-2002, 08:20 AM
I have quit watching all of the pro football, baseball, basketball, etc. except for golf. Toooo much corporate and not enough individuality. Baseball is in trouble for its excesses. Keep pool independent of the corportate mentality and off of the business page and put it in the sports page.

05-18-2002, 01:30 PM
Harold, you truly are speaking like an idiot.

"Who really knows what is up with the media? The media has two sticks to measure people."

Apparently YOU think you know what's up. What double standard are you talking about?

"They blasted Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame but they did not dare go after Michael Jordan, who most probably wagered on his team winnings, just so that Michael would not end like Pete."

What makes you think MJ bet on basketball? Pete bet on baseball was caught and punished. The media's history shows they will go after ANYONE who smells of scandal. Why would they go after Pete and not MJ? You think "the media" (all of them) just like Mike more than Pete? ...or he or the NBA bought them all off? Just because you assume it, doesn't make it true.

"So doesn't this smell like a coverup? Who covered up this one? The NBA or the media?"

You mean who covered up the scandal you just invented? These organizations are smart enough to know that if they cover up scandals, they only invite more. For every party that tries to cover up, there are a dozen who will benefit from exposing it.

Krusty is right. Nobody in their right mind will risk losing millions just to win chump change off some weasel who can rat them out. Of course, this doesn't apply to pool where tournament prizes are so small and gambling is accepted. Golf, before the big money, used to be the same.

05-18-2002, 01:45 PM
Schumacher's teammate (who had just been signed to a new multi-year contract) was ordered to let Michael by for "the good of the team". In F1, the season is more important than individual races, and Ferrari would have felt foolish if somehow this came back to cost them the championship. At least he did it in a way that did not try to conceal the fact (no WWF). Schumacher did not agree with the decision, and gave the trophy to Barrichello and made him take the winner spot on the podium. Certainly Ferrari and F1 have egg on their faces and a PR mess, but no rules were broken - this has been done before.

Rod
05-18-2002, 02:18 PM
Quote Tom, I am glad you have been successful at 'anger managemnet' at the pool table.. it took me quite a while.. (almost 15 years) to overcome those rediculous tantroms.. "

Tom, while I've never been one to get angry over a pool game, misssed shots etc, well ok a few times. I can't say that about playing golf. I've only bent two clubs and never thrown one, but I use to get mad at myself and depressed at hitting poor shots. I sill get a little frustrated but I've found in golf just like in pool the only purpose it serves is to play bad and make others uncomfortable. That in itself was a good enough reason to learn self discipline.

BTW a crisp long iron with a little draw that covers the flag would change my attitude in a heart beat. Well ok it doesn't have to be quite that good and I'm still happy!

MikeM
05-18-2002, 04:52 PM
In a sporting event every contestant should be trying their best to win at all times!!! Period. This makes a total mockery of F1. Lowers it to the level of NASCAR where every week you have teammates blocking and helping one another. It's not a "race" if not everyone is racing to the finish.

MM

Harold Acosta
05-18-2002, 05:31 PM
Oh, Dear mighty God! Please forgive me for being a blasfemous! You are right, I am wrong, I do not know it all but Anonymous does! Michael J didn't bet on basketball, his favorite sport, because he didn't want to end up like Pete! Oh, mighty God, I have sinned to think about Michael J doing any wrong! Please forgive me for saying the media and the NBA covered up! Golf organizations are pure and do nothing wrong! All other sports organizations have done wrong but not Golf! Please, please, forgive me for I have sinned, oh mighty God! Amen.

Yeah, right!

Troy
05-18-2002, 05:38 PM
Like it or not, there is no "I" in "TEAM".

It is NOT a matter of "lowering", it IS the point of TEAMWORK.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: MikeM:</font><hr> In a sporting event every contestant should be trying their best to win at all times!!! Period. This makes a total mockery of F1. Lowers it to the level of NASCAR where every week you have teammates blocking and helping one another. It's not a "race" if not everyone is racing to the finish.

MM <hr></blockquote>

MikeM
05-18-2002, 06:04 PM
If it were a team sport I would agree. Auto racing is NOT a team sport. Each car is entered separately in a race. Helping each other in testing and research and economics are fine. But on the track everyone should be trying to win, otherwise you are cheating the paying fans. What the Ferrari guys did was ridiculous, what Dale Earnhardt did in the final laps of the 2000 Daytona 500 was ridiculous. If F1 had any guts they would disqualify both Ferrari drivers and award the win to the guy in third. I'm not naive enough to believe that some of this doesn't go on in all sports. ESPN did a piece this week on a number of these incidents that have happened in many different sports over the years. Just to get this back to pool, Krusty is right. As long as the perception persists that big time pool players are also big time gamblers, it will never be accepted as a big time sport.

MM......Man I'm being long winded today!

05-25-2002, 08:05 PM
I agree with Tom, in fact I'd go one farther and say Pro Pool would be a hell of a lot better off, if we had more players like Earl! Earl and I have been friends for 20 years and while I've not always agreed with his outbursts, I do realize that they are largely due to the fact that he try's so hard to win! I'd much rather watch Earl play a match than someone like Jeff Carter (and I mean no disrespect to Jeff Carter) who's like watching paint dry! Earls emotions tend to come to the surface occasionally, but it's players like him who make pool interesting to the masses! If you don't like Earl, you needn't invite him to Sunday dinner, but at least be smart enough to realize that pool needs all of the "drawing cards" it can get at this point, and Earl is still one of the most exciting players in the world to watch!

just more hot air!

Sherm in Cincy 8^)

Troy
05-25-2002, 08:11 PM
Sherm... If you and Earl are such longtime friends, why doesn't he use a "SHERM CUE" and have you as his sponsor ???

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cuesmith:</font><hr> I agree with Tom, in fact I'd go one farther and say Pro Pool would be a hell of a lot better off, if we had more players like Earl! Earl and I have been friends for 20 years and while I've not always agreed with his outbursts, I do realize that they are largely due to the fact that he try's so hard to win! I'd much rather watch Earl play a match than someone like Jeff Carter (and I mean no disrespect to Jeff Carter) who's like watching paint dry! Earls emotions tend to come to the surface occasionally, but it's players like him who make pool interesting to the masses! If you don't like Earl, you needn't invite him to Sunday dinner, but at least be smart enough to realize that pool needs all of the "drawing cards" it can get at this point, and Earl is still one of the most exciting players in the world to watch!

just more hot air!

Sherm in Cincy 8^) <hr></blockquote>

05-25-2002, 11:25 PM
I think that what pro pool needs to build its image are more colleges that have Pool teams and to try and make it a varsity sport. Think about it, baseball, basketball and football all have varsity sports at the collegate level and thats where people move up to the pros from. There was an article this month about that in Billiards Digest, about Bowling becoming a varsity sport, and pool is just a level below bowling.

Lewie

Tom_In_Cincy
05-26-2002, 08:01 AM
Sherm,
Hello good buddy..glad to see you've come to check CCB out.

How did you learn about CCB?

05-26-2002, 09:55 AM
Troy,
No disrespect meant hear, but the answer should be rather obvious. Cuetec has deeper pockets. If your friend was willing and able to pay you $100 a month to use his tips, but LePro was willing and able to pay you $1,000 who do you go with? Even friendship has its limits, you know.

preacherman
05-26-2002, 09:52 PM
Tom and Others,

I saw Earl Strickland play against Jim Rempe in Las Vegas last week. Earl ended up losing, though it was a great match. During part of the match I say right behind Earl Strickland. He seems like a miserable, depressed, negative man. I even heard him knocking himself during the game WHEN HE MISSED A SHOT. He is a great player but not a model player. I think he needs medical help, spiritual help and PRAYER. I enjoyed watching him in person and up close, but also thought it sad that he seems so miserable and talks so negative (even about himself). I've been taught pool is a mental game and positive thoughts and attitudes are key - YES or No! I say Yes, but yet Earl breaks all these "positive" pool guidelines. What makes him the exception to the rule???? Also, I do think Pool needs to hold high standards of their pro players.

In other sports John McEnroe in my opinion did damage to Tennis and his temper and swearing. He should have banded intead we make him a hero.

In Boxing, Mike Tyson should not be allowed to ever fight.
He is a law breaker, and he says and does some of the most bazzare thing. He doesn't need to be in boxing ring. He needs BIG HELP!

I do hope that we will in sports/pool learn to hold a standard of respect and guidlines, and NOT promote those who are below standard.

Jim (preacherman)

05-27-2002, 05:41 AM
That's quite simple! I don't pay _anyone_ to use one of my cues! The many players who do use them, do so because _they_ want to, not because they are paid to! I'm not saying that I'm against sponsorship, but I don't have an extra fifty, to a hundred grand laying around that I want to give to any prima donna pool player for using my product! I'm a little guy, not a big manufacturer!

just more hot air!

Sherm

Rip
05-27-2002, 10:58 AM
Earl is going through some changes in his personal life that many of us have had to deal with. I'm certainly not equipped to judge or make moral character value judgements on Earl or any other person. Are you? Rip~~not preaching, just asking and not needing a response to my rhetorical question.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: preacherman:</font><hr> Tom and Others,

I saw Earl Strickland play against Jim Rempe in Las Vegas last week. Earl ended up losing, though it was a great match. During part of the match I say right behind Earl Strickland. He seems like a miserable, depressed, negative man. I even heard him knocking himself during the game WHEN HE MISSED A SHOT. He is a great player but not a model player. I think he needs medical help, spiritual help and PRAYER. I enjoyed watching him in person and up close, but also thought it sad that he seems so miserable and talks so negative (even about himself).

Jim (preacherman)
<hr></blockquote>

05-31-2002, 01:56 PM
I was at the Memphis Open 2yrs ago and saw a player from Toledo,OH that was a awesome player but was intentionaly complaining about the rack ,his name was JACK HINES ,he had no sportsmanship at all ,total arrogancy,toward other players every match . He won every match without remorse toward his opponent's game. As he won the OPEN by defeating JONATHAN HENNESSEE a aspiring pro from Manchester,TN. by a 1 set. HENNESSEE won the 1st set and then it was all down hill from there ,The young kid from MANCHESTER had felt the wrath of a player that has total disrespect for anyone's game. JACK HINES has been barred out of just about every poolhall in the US. It is a discrace to the sport. Pro billiards needs to rid players like this who show BAD CONDUCT DURING TOURNAMENT PLAY . JACK HINES WAS barred out of THE RACK 4 LIFE ,WHEN he got in a altercation with tourney dir. Larry Ayler by bitching about the rack.THIS IS PITIFULL, in general this type of behavior is another strickland on the rise . Enough SAID ROAD DAWG

06-04-2002, 03:11 AM
Sorry to post anonymously - my name's John, from the UK. I only get to see the Matchroom televised events (World Pool Championship, WP Masters, WP League, Mosconi Cup), so I know I've probably not seen anywhere near as much of Earl as some of you.

The match which turned me against Earl was his match against Kevin Smith in the 2000 World Pool Championship. Smith, a young British player who had not (to my knowledge) played a match anywhere near as high-profile as this match against Earl on live TV. Before the match he said that Earl was his idol, and that playing him was like a dream come true.

After an impressive start from Smith, Strikland's behaviour was embarassing to watch. Deliberately intimidating Smith, Earl complained about a jump shot Kevin had attempted - Despite miscuing, Smith still made a legal hit, yet Earl moaned and whined over and over, refusing to accept the ref's judgement of the shot. Having destroyed the poor guy psychologically, Strickland started to walk away with the match and started showing off to the crowd, obviously very proud of what he's done. In the post-match interview, he then acted so smugly that I almost felt ill watching him.

I used to give Earl's antics the benefit of the doubt - not any more!