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rah
09-23-2004, 08:43 AM
I have never hit with one before, but the other night I saw a friend who had just purchased one.

He said that he has to let off a little or the cue ball will jump.

I looked at the tip and it doesn't hold chalk very well, even though the user said he puts it on there anyway.

So here are some questions that have come to mind. Considering the makeup of the tip, will there be more or less deflection (for example if you put the tip on a predator shaft)? Is this cue only good for people with accurate break strokes? The Predator BK is forgiving if your stroke is off a little.

It just seems to me without much scientific thought that you MUST be more accurate with the Sledgehammer or you will be in deep do-do as the ball will have plenty of speed but may miss hitting the center of the rack.

Thanks in advance.

Frank_Glenn
09-23-2004, 09:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rah:</font><hr> I have never hit with one before, but the other night I saw a friend who had just purchased one.

He said that he has to let off a little or the cue ball will jump.

I looked at the tip and it doesn't hold chalk very well, even though the user said he puts it on there anyway.

So here are some questions that have come to mind. Considering the makeup of the tip, will there be more or less deflection (for example if you put the tip on a predator shaft)? Is this cue only good for people with accurate break strokes? The Predator BK is forgiving if your stroke is off a little.

It just seems to me without much scientific thought that you MUST be more accurate with the Sledgehammer or you will be in deep do-do as the ball will have plenty of speed but may miss hitting the center of the rack.

Thanks in advance. <hr /></blockquote>

You should have NO deflection on the break because you should be using center ball hit only. The tip is phenolic plastic or something similar. Some people swear by these, others do not like them. Jumping is a whole other issue, because you are not be using centerball most of the time. Chalk up before EACH shot (you should do this anyway). Good luck
Frank

ras314
09-23-2004, 10:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rah:</font><hr> It just seems to me without much scientific thought that you MUST be more accurate with the Sledgehammer or you will be in deep do-do as the ball will have plenty of speed but may miss hitting the center of the rack. <hr /></blockquote>
I suspect deflection is not an issue. For one thing you can get the same cb speed with the hard tip as you would with a little more cue speed using a leather tip. Ought to result in a more accurate slightly high of center cb hit.

I have no trouble with the cue ball jumping. Could be I use a more level break stroke than most as I am continually putting dings in the handle from hitting the rail during the break. Already have some on my brand new Sledgehammer.

My first reaction to using this tip was how little the miscue problem is. I doubt there are many poolplayers out there with a less accurate hit on the cb than I. Probably none that have worked on this simple issue as much as I have. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I'm wondering how many breaks before the tip needs reshaping? Looks like a dime radius, would a flatter curve work better? Will it get smoother with time so it doesn't hold chalk?

ras314
09-23-2004, 11:28 AM
I got more interested is this issue of hard plastic tips so I set up this draw shot drill.

START(
%Am9D2%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pa4D3%Us1D3%Vn6D2%W l5D3%Xb0D2
%YD4D7%Zm2D4%eB4b4
)END

I had no more problem using the Sledgehammer than with my usual playing cue with a hard Talisman WB tip. It does neet to be carefully chalked however. This is weird. I have another 314 shaft with a soft Talisman tip, could very seldom get this much draw. Trying to stroke faster just resulted in flying cb's.

Something seems backwards? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

drawshot
09-23-2004, 10:22 PM
I've had a Sledge for almost a year now. And the Sledge seems to break the balls apart better than my previous Bunjee. The tip never need shaping and the cue ball control is excellent on the break providing you get a good center ball hit.
If I could only jump now...

Chris Cass
09-23-2004, 10:29 PM
It's the stroke that your friend need to get down. The cue is nothing more than the tool to break with. As I see it. The chalk does help but if there's problems in finding ctr then, the cue isn't what needs attention.

Regards,

C.C.~~suggests, practice the break at slow speeds then, increase with time.

rah
09-24-2004, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote rah:</font><hr> I have never hit with one before, but the other night I saw a friend who had just purchased one.

He said that he has to let off a little or the cue ball will jump.

I looked at the tip and it doesn't hold chalk very well, even though the user said he puts it on there anyway.

So here are some questions that have come to mind. Considering the makeup of the tip, will there be more or less deflection (for example if you put the tip on a predator shaft)? Is this cue only good for people with accurate break strokes? The Predator BK is forgiving if your stroke is off a little.

It just seems to me without much scientific thought that you MUST be more accurate with the Sledgehammer or you will be in deep do-do as the ball will have plenty of speed but may miss hitting the center of the rack.

Thanks in advance. <hr /></blockquote>

You should have NO deflection on the break because you should be using center ball hit only. The tip is phenolic plastic or something similar. Some people swear by these, others do not like them. Jumping is a whole other issue, because you are not be using centerball most of the time. Chalk up before EACH shot (you should do this anyway). Good luck
Frank <hr /></blockquote>

How many people can hit the cue ball perfectly in the center every time, especially on the break? I would venture to say 5%, including pros. And even if you did hit the CUE ball dead center, the shaft will always bend a little and you will have some degree of deflection - ALWAYS, even using a predator cue. It just minimizes the deflection is my understanding. And so my question remains unanswered, or at least what I intened to ask: how does deflection affect the Sledgehammer. We are talking a different ball game with a unique tip that doesn't act the same as regular tips. My friend has a very powerful break. His cue ball seems to leap through the air a little towards the rack. Must be because of his downward motion of his stroke. I think he is trying to copy someone who breaks extremely hard by making his cue ball fly through the air towards the rack, thus loosing no speed on friction.

Additionally, I find it hard to believe that the Sledgehammer can draw at all. I would like to see this - i.e. you have got to be kidding. My friend said that the tips never wear out on the Sledgehammer - never have to be replaced. Maybe he does not know what he is talking about in regards to this, but if the tip was this hard and doesn't hold chalk worth a damn, how could it possibly draw?

rah
09-24-2004, 10:03 AM
Chris, I believe that few pros can find the center. They come close, but no cigar. How many times have we seen pros put the cue ball right into the side pocket without help from another ball? Too many times IMO. Efren does this a lot. Efren has a lousy break. So does McCready.

So in this discussion, I believe that break sticks make a BIG difference, even to the pros. They like the predator shafts I am presuming, and maybe you could give us a more accurate picture since you just played in the Open. How many pros are using the Sledgehammer for example?

Chris, I am just ribbing you a little by saying this, but you sound like Scott Lee. To him, as we all know, the tip makes no difference, the stick makes no difference, the weight of the stick makes no difference, etc. Of course I still respect both of your opinions.

BTW, my friend hits a little downward on the cue ball, and it thus hops anyway. The Sledgehammer just makes the cue ball jump due to this, and you are correct in your analysis. But I don't think it is a generic enough explanation. I didn't mean for my question to concentrate so much on this jumping aspect. My apologies.

Cheers.

ras314
09-24-2004, 10:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rah:</font><hr>
Additionally, I find it hard to believe that the Sledgehammer can draw at all. I would like to see this - i.e. you have got to be kidding. My friend said that the tips never wear out on the Sledgehammer - never have to be replaced. Maybe he does not know what he is talking about in regards to this, but if the tip was this hard and doesn't hold chalk worth a damn, how could it possibly draw?

<hr /></blockquote>
Nope, not kidding at all. First of all, it does hold chalk, at least well enough for a shot or two. If you use a level cue and a low hit with a nice smooth stroke and follow thru you will be amazed how well the cb will draw. There should be no trouble with miscues if the tip is properly chalked.

I've even done the draw drill Scott recommends with it, yeah it was a suprise to me also.

Chris Cass
09-24-2004, 12:29 PM
Hi rah,

I know exactly what your saying my friend. I'd also venture it's less than 5% too. There's room for error bud. I know and mentioned that to Roy, when I used his. That's why I totally recommend chalking it, even though they might suggest not to.

I know when I don't hit it well, even though I don't fly off the table. I see the balls spred but it doesn't have the same effect as when you hit them just right. Perfect is not pool, that's for sure. Timing is what the break is all about.

I know many pros that use the Slegehammer and the Pred. Dave Matlock for one uses the Slegehammer. I remember a tourney that was on bar boxes and the ones that were unstopable all had been using the Sledgehammer. Bottom line and I believe Scott will agree is that Timing is the key factor.

I didn't notice how many pros were using the Slegehammer or the Pred at the Open. I spent most of my time in the chair watching Niels Fejen making a ball on the break everytime but once. I was thinking not so much about his break cue. As the speed of his break was right on along with the placement of the cb was another. I was also thinking how I could disturb his mental focus without drawing attention to myself. LOL Man that kid has some eyes.

I will say this on a personal note. I happen to like the Cuetech break cue. I like to shoot with a LePro tip on it too. They're a solid cue for sure. I did make many balls breaking with Roy' Sledge but I had much more control with the LePro tip. The timing is everything. The Lepro covers the errors in hits.

The Open isn't a good summation of what cue you should use to break with. Mainly due the the fact they use the Sardo Gizmo. That turned the game into a selective break and racking the 9 on the spot turned it into a speed issue. The cut break doesn't require much power therefore, the Sledge is limited for sure.

Not to mention the pros get a lot of their equipment because of a marketing. Also, when something new comes out every pro has to keep up for that may be the very thing that will keep them from being current. I mean they have to keep the consistancy area as evenly as possible. If someone has an advantage over another because of the equipment. They'll all follow suit.

Me with Scott Lee? Did he tell you I owe him money? LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~thanks for the analogy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
09-24-2004, 12:39 PM
Oh rah,

I forgot. Yes, of course the cb goes airbourne on the break shot. This has been known for years. There was an article many yrs ago about it and how to mesure this distance too. It'll optimise your break. You place the cb when you normally break from and from 2" away, place a dime. Continue to place the dimes in a row all the way to the headball in a straight line. Then, have at it. Where the dime gets disturbed is where you see the cb land. It's cool and I've used it to measure my speed and best cue to do this with. Weight of the break cue, I believe, is key to this optiming.

Regards,

C.C.

Scott Lee
09-24-2004, 05:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rah:</font><hr> Chris, I am just ribbing you a little by saying this, but you sound like Scott Lee. To him, as we all know, the tip makes no difference, the stick makes no difference, the weight of the stick makes no difference, etc. Of course I still respect both of your opinions.

Cheers. <hr /></blockquote>

rah...Yeah, and it just happens to be the truth! So...what is about statement that you don't understand? LOL Most folks just don't want to believe that timing IS the key, and equipment is ancillary. I will say, that someone with a perfect stroke may likely get some small percentage better action with a good break cue...however, imo, the change is minimal.

Scott Lee

ras314
09-24-2004, 08:11 PM
Whoo-eee! Scott Lee just indicated I have a perfect stroke. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Anybody that watched me break knows better.

Actually I think not worrying about beating up my cue butt makes me willing to attempt to add a little speed. Then trying harder to get a near center ball hit because of the hard tip also helps a bit. Haven't put the cb off the table yet but I really don't want anyone standing down range. My guess is the hard tip might show a mesurable increase in speed in a controlled test but it would be minor.

Chris Cass
09-24-2004, 10:35 PM
Hi Ras,

I equate your break timing to that of Elaine' dancing. Have you ever seen Sienfeld?

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif,

C.C.

ras314
09-25-2004, 06:44 AM
Haven't seen Elaine dance. Must be pretty spastic? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Besides I have no idea what timing means in referance to the break. Maybe hit the cb so that it is coming down at the instant of contact with the rack? I think that if it hits the table a little ahead of the break it will go airborn on contact. For a while I had a consistent break where the cb hopped straight up a foot. Didn't spread the rack very well. Now I just hit 'em and hope. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

onepocketchump
09-25-2004, 09:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote rah:</font><hr>
Additionally, I find it hard to believe that the Sledgehammer can draw at all. I would like to see this - i.e. you have got to be kidding. My friend said that the tips never wear out on the Sledgehammer - never have to be replaced. Maybe he does not know what he is talking about in regards to this, but if the tip was this hard and doesn't hold chalk worth a damn, how could it possibly draw?

<hr /></blockquote>
Nope, not kidding at all. First of all, it does hold chalk, at least well enough for a shot or two. If you use a level cue and a low hit with a nice smooth stroke and follow thru you will be amazed how well the cb will draw. There should be no trouble with miscues if the tip is properly chalked.

I've even done the draw drill Scott recommends with it, yeah it was a suprise to me also. <hr /></blockquote>

I have absolutely BARBECUED several players, including two UPA Pros, using the Bunjee Jump Breaker and the Fury Jump/Breaker to playe with. I can spin the cueball as much or more than with any of my other cues. Most people don't believe me but they become believers pretty quick when I start running racks with the phenolic tipped cues.


I once won a one pocket match using JUST the Bunjee Jumper.

John

Scott Lee
09-25-2004, 10:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> Besides I have no idea what timing means in referance to the break. Now I just hit 'em and hope. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Roy...Now you know what we'll work on, the next time we get together! LOL

Scott

Fasteddy7
09-25-2004, 02:57 PM
Trust me i have a predator bk with a phenolic tip. ( hard as a brick) but yet sometimes it draws, sometimes it follows. I always stand there in awe as the ball ACTUALLY draws. I say "this tip aint supposed to draw" but alas, it does not like a moochie but it does draw if not hit in the center

ras314
09-25-2004, 05:23 PM
Scott, I need so much improvement on everything I don't even know what needs the most work. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The New Mexico open is coming up soon and I'm hoping to play in it. $100 entry, $3500 added, race to 9. I figure I ain't going to get any better in a few weeks so I'm attempting to get more consistent on those little simple shots I miss so often.

However two more 9 balls fell to the sledgehammer today. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just about have the trip to Albuquerque paid for. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
09-25-2004, 06:35 PM
Hi Ras,

I was making a joke bud. I'm a huge fan of Sienfeld. Actually, I'm the one who's spastic. LOL

There's so much different things as far as timing in the break. imo That's it's hard for me to describe. I'm sure Scott has his own explination and most likely different than mine.

What I'm refering to is the timing not only of the movements in the stroke itself but also of the rack and the way the balls are moving after contact. You can break so hard that it's more detremental than positive. You can have the balls colliding with themselves causing less action. Sometimes depending on the table cloth and the balls of how they're breaking you may make more balls with less speed or softer hit. Than someone crushing them and coming up dry. imho

When I speak of timing I think of two different breaks alone for 9 ball. The cut break and the powerbreak. The powerbreak requires body movement. You'll see back legs flying up in the air and the body extending forward.

First, I'd like to say that. When you see the leg going up it isn't because they do it on purpose. It has no purpose. It flys up because it's totally involuntary. You have no control of that. If you do then, your not powerbreaking right.

On the powerbreak your upper body starts to rise as the cue stroke starts it's backswing. Like drawing a bow while shooting an arrow. Once the backstroke is at it's end your body will be at almost a full standing position. Almost because the bridge hand is still holding the shaft and your bridge is still on the table. Your knees will extend and your front leg will lock for a second in time. Your back foot will not lock but rise off the heel and the follow-through begins.

As you start your follow-through. Your your torso is moving forward. Your body weight is shifting off your back foot to the front foot. As your cue is propelled forward the taper of the cue becomes a force driving your bridge hand open.

While your hold onto the cue. Your bridge starts to come off the bed of the cloth and becomes airborne. Your weight is shifted forward onto your front foot fully and is your balance point and your back leg starts it's journey to kick anyone walking by in the nuts. LOL I've kicked many a tables and thought I broke my foot many times. hahaha

Then, there's the cut break. That sir is another ball of wax. LOL Now Scott has is own opinion and so do many others and you've gotten mine. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~not a qualified instructor of the break either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

rah
09-27-2004, 09:02 AM
Thanks for all of your great input on the break. I suspected all along that the Sledgehammer is a gimmick. I believe that McCready was using one the last time I saw him play, and his break leaves a lot to be desired, IMO. BTW, I am starting to like my Predator break cue more and more. When you have a chicken wing stroke like me, you need something to save to ass. The Predator is no gimmick IMO.

I also agree with what you said about hitting the balls too hard. Charlie Williams was demonstrating how hard he could hit the cue ball, and the balls started colliding with each other and they appeared to thus loose energy as time went on, even though he hit the shot just as hard as anyone I have ever seen. The cue ball got bumped around a lot also, even though he initially left it perfectly in the middle of the table.

Cheers Chris.

rah
09-27-2004, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote rah:</font><hr>
Additionally, I find it hard to believe that the Sledgehammer can draw at all. I would like to see this - i.e. you have got to be kidding. My friend said that the tips never wear out on the Sledgehammer - never have to be replaced. Maybe he does not know what he is talking about in regards to this, but if the tip was this hard and doesn't hold chalk worth a damn, how could it possibly draw?

<hr /></blockquote>
Nope, not kidding at all. First of all, it does hold chalk, at least well enough for a shot or two. If you use a level cue and a low hit with a nice smooth stroke and follow thru you will be amazed how well the cb will draw. There should be no trouble with miscues if the tip is properly chalked.

I've even done the draw drill Scott recommends with it, yeah it was a suprise to me also. <hr /></blockquote>

I have absolutely BARBECUED several players, including two UPA Pros, using the Bunjee Jump Breaker and the Fury Jump/Breaker to playe with. I can spin the cueball as much or more than with any of my other cues. Most people don't believe me but they become believers pretty quick when I start running racks with the phenolic tipped cues.


I once won a one pocket match using JUST the Bunjee Jumper.

John <hr /></blockquote>

Now my mind has been really blown. I think I am going to retire from this thread for a while LOL and go work on my break.

Bob_in_Cincy
09-27-2004, 09:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Most folks just don't want to believe that timing IS the key, and equipment is ancillary.
Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Scott,

First,how are you?

So you don't believe cue weight makes any difference? The reason I ask is, I've seen several players with better breaks than me, break better than I can with my break cue so I know I've got work to do yet. But almost to a man, even they all say that a lighter break cue (mine's 20 oz.) would be better. Just asking, my friend.

Bob &lt; did personal best of 20 in 9-ball-line-up drill last week /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif