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View Full Version : Dislike For Intentional Fouls, What To Say???



Sid_Vicious
09-23-2004, 11:09 AM
I just had a discussion with my student, the night of competition for her and her partner ended with a top medal, won 6 of 8 games, a nice finish for all of the work over the last few months. Here's the deal though, there was an instance in the last game where we had a makeable ball in the side but our last ball was dead on the rail a few inches beyond one of their Obis(the other team was both 2's and had some trouble with those left.) I and here partner, who was a well seasoned league player quickly saw that the intentional foul to push our 2-ball toward or into the corner was the perfect avenue instead of wasting the near hanger in the side(keyball for an 8-ball shape.) So the shooter's face went to a glare, she shot the combo gruffly and accomplished enough to create the desired results, but her demeanor never improved, plus today the statement was actually made from her that "I'm not sure I like this game, intenional fouling makes it not a pure game!" Any real good advice on how to convoke such an opinionated statement? I explained all of the strength that this simple foul almost definitely guaranteed, a 99.9% win I'd say, but the blinders are up BIGTIME! Safeties are an OK issue, she understands the killer tact, but not the intentional stuff, "It just ain't a pure way to play!"

Have you experienced this, and if so, what's the answer.

Thanks,
Sid

Popcorn
09-23-2004, 11:27 AM
It's just a strategy like bunting in baseball, you don't always swing for the fence. I run into players who look down on playing safe, like it is unmanly or something. She just has to understand it is part of the game and very smart. One of the great things about pool is, it is a game of strategy and execution and it requires both to win. When one foul first came out many players just refused to do it and would shoot at everything. They hated to win with a ball in hand. After losing repeatedly to lesser players they saw the light.

ragin1
09-23-2004, 11:42 AM
"After losing repeatedly to lesser players they saw the light."

I despise safeties and intentional fouls for just this reason. I've always believed for the true sport of pocket billiards, run em, if you can't, then rack em. Not, run em, if you can't, hide the ball from the opponent.

Wally_in_Cincy
09-23-2004, 11:57 AM
There's not much you can do, She will see the light eventually. It's like a kid that has to put his hand on the hot stove before he learns not to do it.

I can't tell you how many times guys will be sitting at the tavern watching league play and when somebody plays a safe they will shake their head, turn away and say "That's not real pool".

Funny though, I have seen a couple of these guys change their mind 180 degres after joining the league.

Bob_Jewett
09-23-2004, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> ... I can't tell you how many times guys will be sitting at the tavern watching league play and when somebody plays a safe they will shake their head, turn away and say "That's not real pool".
<hr /></blockquote>
I used to play in an eight ball league, and one of the league rules was, "No safety play." Of course, intentional fouls were never even considered. It was amusing to watch the players who could barely run two balls sort of try for a shot where the whole point was to leave the cue ball safe. I suppose they felt they were gaming the system. Some players are happiest when they're cheating.

As for the original question, just tell her that she should play the shot she's comfortable with but she shouldn't get upset if someone else chooses to win by playing within the rules.

SPetty
09-23-2004, 12:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "I'm not sure I like this game, intentional fouling makes it not a pure game!"

"It just ain't a pure way to play!"<hr /></blockquote>Is she playing for purity and beauty, or is she playing to win?

If she's playing to win, there's an advantage to knowing all the rules and many of the strategies. If she's playing to win, she should take advantage of every opportunity to do so.

Perhaps she'd understand it better if you liken it to something like baseball, where the pitcher will intentionally walk the batter, or maybe golf, where the player takes a mulligan.

That ain't pure, but it's not cheating and it's a tactical maneuver to help win the game.

If she's playing only for purity and beauty, perhaps she should be learning trick shots rather than competitive games...

BCgirl
09-23-2004, 12:19 PM
I guess this is one of the reasons that I'm not a fan of leagues where the individual racks are not handicapped.

You're an A player, playing a weak D player. The D makes a legal pot after the break, then misses, leaving their set open, and the balls in your set are all in impossible clusters. What do you do?

Well, you could just throw caution to the wind, knowing that the D player's not likely to hurt you. You don't need to play safe, because they're not going to run out. If you do this, you show your contempt for their game, and neither player learns anything. The only person who benefits is a fragile little thing who is not likely to have the temperament to make it in this game.

Alternatively, you see a rack that's stacked against you, and you use every safety, every ball-in-hand, every break shot, and every deliberate foul at your disposal to turn the rack around. Now, you might be playing a wall-flower who just can't grasp the significance of what just went on, but someone who is there to learn the game will stop and think, and apply the same thinking to their game.

The rules are there to define the game. So long as a player follows and respects the rules, and the penalties for a deliberate foul, then there's simply no issue. But it seems to me that expecting a stronger player to self-handicap themselves for whatever reason, is just plain silly, and shows a lack of respect for both players, and for the game.

BCgirl

Chris Cass
09-23-2004, 12:42 PM
Hi Sid,

This is a simple answer to a simple problem. What I would convey to the student is that the game is about making it as simple as possible. She can choose to play the game she wishes and that's ok.

I'd inform her that the handicap systems are in place to the less knowledgable or skilled player. Safeties, and intentional fouls are all part of the game. It's a learning process. In every sport there's rules in place and certain things must be met. There are penelties and consiquences for every action. These are weighed by the player and with a thought out conclusion. You make your own descisions.

If she cannot understand this, nor likes the rules or strategies involved? It's up to her, to choose how she wants to use her knowledge and skill. Your simply showing her the avenues of what others, may take and have every right to do so. It's up to her. Just remind her that her opponents should not be condemmed for the way they play.

Also remind her that when she hears someone say, "Nice Try" It basically means, she missed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Steve Lipsky
09-23-2004, 12:57 PM
Hey Sid. I think I would try to explain it to her like so:

1. People win games by making a better group of shots than their opponents.

2. Any shot that is intentional, well-executed, and puts you in a better spot to win the game, is a shot you should always be proud of.

I would also tell her that very often intentional fouls present the greatest opportunity for creative thinking at a pool table. It is the purest form of thinking outside the box.

- Steve

Chris Cass
09-23-2004, 01:05 PM
Gosh,

I like that answer so much better than mine. Steve, you just have a way of putting things that make this game so great. I guess that's why your such a great player and not to mention great person.

Regards,

C.C.~~going with Steve' reply as of now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Steve Lipsky
09-23-2004, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ragin1:</font><hr> "After losing repeatedly to lesser players they saw the light."

I despise safeties and intentional fouls for just this reason. I've always believed for the true sport of pocket billiards, run em, if you can't, then rack em. Not, run em, if you can't, hide the ball from the opponent. <hr /></blockquote>

Ragin,

I am curious why you think it always takes less skill to play a safety than it does to pocket an object ball?

Your strategy, in baseball terms, would be:

"Pitchers should always throw fastballs down the middle. Pitchers should have the goods to strike a batter out this way. Throwing all kinds of different pitches (and some not even in the strike zone!) in an attempt to gain the best possible advantage over a hitter, is a lame way to win."

- Steve

eg8r
09-23-2004, 01:22 PM
Not to take anything away from the rest of your post but... [ QUOTE ]
I would also tell her that very often intentional fouls present the greatest opportunity for creative thinking at a pool table. It is the purest form of thinking outside the box. <hr /></blockquote> This is an excellent point and I had never thought of it that way.

Thanks,

eg8r

Tom_In_Cincy
09-23-2004, 01:29 PM
Sid,

As long as I have been playing this game, and with all the players I have met over the years, taking an intentional foul rather than making a 'best effort' has always been a difficult situation, especially in the beginning of the learning curve.

There are die-hard players that will always contend that pool was not meant to be played this way. I have found out over the years that these same players are usually the players that don't compete in leagues or tournaments. And, heaven forbid, they would ever match up for money.

But, all that being said, I still don't like the 'intentional foul' ploy in this game. I find it somewhat degrading. I still have difficulties accepting that someone would intentionally commit a rules violation and gain an advantage. This just doesn't sit well with me. But, again, I have, on occasion, used this ploy for an advantage, (the hypocrite in me is now showing).

Tough situation to get through. Either you accept the playing rules and continue, or find another game to meet your challenges.

Scott Lee
09-23-2004, 02:03 PM
sid...Without even reading the other posts yet, I would put it to her this way...historically the very best players in the world have ALWAYS utilized the 'intentional foul' as a strategy move. This is true in ALL pool games. It's been that way for many decades, since the intentional foul rule began being used in 14.1 many many years ago. If it's okay for them, it should be okay for her. You don't HAVE to like it...just know it, and make your own choices about when and where (or if) to use it.

Scott Lee

pooltchr
09-23-2004, 02:26 PM
Sid,
I think you have some great responses here. I would only add that you can think of it in terms of a sacrafice in baseball. (You don't want to make an out, but sometimes it's the best way to score a run) or sacraficing your knight in a game of chess to save the queen and possibly the game. An intentional foul is sacraficing your turn at the table and giving up ball in hand. And your opponent has the same opportunity to turn the tables on you. It's all part of the strategy of winning.
Steve

Scott Lee
09-23-2004, 02:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Sid,
An intentional foul is sacraficing your turn at the table and giving up ball in hand.

Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve...Remember, ball in hand is only in 8-ball &amp; 9-ball. The intentional foul comes into play in 14.1 and one pocket too, but there is no ball in hand rule.

Scott

littleCajun
09-23-2004, 02:38 PM
You can also related it to football &lt;A Real Macho Sport&gt;
1. Taking a delay of game to run the clock out.
2. The Quarterback throwing the ball out of bounds to avoid
a sack.
3. Neeling the football instead of running a play to take
time off of the clock.
4. Intentinal pass interferance in the endzone to take away
a touch down.

These are not looked down upon in football.

Popcorn
09-23-2004, 02:39 PM
You are welcome to play like that, you won't win much though. I hope you don't plan on learning one pocket any time soon..

Sid_Vicious
09-23-2004, 02:43 PM
"I would also tell her that very often intentional fouls present the greatest opportunity for creative thinking at a pool table. It is the purest form of thinking outside the box."

I gave this statement below to her in-between the time I posted and now, seems similar to what you said, thanks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

"The organized way to play with BCA rules is with these strategies, not because it is a built in gift but because it is designed for variance and imaginative actions and reactions to how things roll."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~



She's still not convinced, and frankly speaking, I feel she may simply not have the "beating attitude" about her. One of my old GFs was the same way, she wouldn't "take it to the net" on someone if she felt it would hurt their feelings, said she just wanted to have fun, not be serious. I suppose we all have some variances concerning seriousness and reasons for playing, but, to me(and not meaning to be a chauvinist mind you), women in general seem to lead in this statistic....sid

Steve Lipsky
09-23-2004, 03:09 PM
Steve,

The sac in baseball and chess are perfect analogies. If that doesn't convince someone, I'm not sure anything will.

- Steve

LivinGr8
09-23-2004, 04:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I just had a discussion... Safeties are an OK issue, she understands the killer tact, but not the intentional stuff, "It just ain't a pure way to play!"

Have you experienced this, and if so, what's the answer.

Thanks,
Sid <hr /></blockquote>

Personally, I would feel better if a ref would be called anytime this type of play is attempted. I think it should be called by the shooter for what it is, a foul. Thats not to say that I would'nt do everything within the rules to win the game. But I wonder, if a ref had the ability to warn a player for his/her actions, would the warning discourage the act and make this a better game. It would for me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Barbara
09-23-2004, 05:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCgirl:</font><hr> The rules are there to define the game. So long as a player follows and respects the rules, and the penalties for a deliberate foul, then there's simply no issue. But it seems to me that expecting a stronger player to self-handicap themselves for whatever reason, is just plain silly, and shows a lack of respect for both players, and for the game.

BCgirl <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you BCgirl!! Has anyone else lost this thought?? In other words, when I make a deliberate foul, I know that I am forewarned with it's penalties that may apply.

Just as a stronger player may play countless safties against me, I may decide to make a delberate foul to counteract her play should the table layout allow.

However, I speak of 9-ball where a 3-foul rule applies, according to BCA rules. In 8-ball, there is no 3-foul rule, but there is a stalemate rule, and as an opponent, I would definitely consider this rule and force the game to be replayed!

Sid, teach her to be a ref to learn the rules and where and why she may want to employ them to her advantage.

Barbara

Barbara
09-23-2004, 05:51 PM
Okay Tom,

I can see your point where someone can really abuse the situation, but there are sometimes that (thinking along the lines of 14.1 pool) where your opponent is already on one foul and locking them up to do something drastic (like sewing up the object ball with all the other balls) and they don't see that and now you're taking another intentional foul because they're on two and you're on one, it's a beautiful thing.

Barbara~~~been there, done that, and won the match because of it...

Tom_In_Cincy
09-23-2004, 06:01 PM
Yes Brarbara, you're correct, there are execptions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

"All fair in love and war" and "Turnarournd is Fair PLAY"

Leviathan
09-23-2004, 06:13 PM
Well, I'm just pleased to see that your teaching efforts have helped this student achieve a goal, score a good win. We've all seen that you want your students to succeed and that you're doing your honest best for them. Darn good job, Sid.

AS

ragin1
09-23-2004, 06:23 PM
That is my personal opine of safeties and intentional fouls. I use them when I need to, and also practice them. I'll shoot an oponents ball if I have to, and intentionaly scratch if needed. I'll move oponenents balls, anything because, as has been preveously stated they are a part of the game.

As to your analogy, it doesn't fit. Just as we put all types of spin on the cueball, the pitcher puts all types of spin on the baseball. The intentional walk, the riding out the clock in football, and basketball, and the safety shot, are all strategies that take your oponent out of the game. I don't like it. I never will.

nhp
09-24-2004, 02:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ragin1:</font><hr> "After losing repeatedly to lesser players they saw the light."

I despise safeties and intentional fouls for just this reason. I've always believed for the true sport of pocket billiards, run em, if you can't, then rack em. Not, run em, if you can't, hide the ball from the opponent. <hr /></blockquote>

I think any good player will tell you, that type of mentality will get you broke. It's not all about running balls, it's about keeping control of the table.

JimS
09-24-2004, 04:41 AM
Back in the day they called it dirty pool.

Now they call it a safety.

I applaud her integrity but winning a team game requires reasonable concessions. Especially when what's being asked of the player is not "dirty pool" but just something that feels that way until the player gains some more understanding of the game.

Once I got used to thinking and playing "safe" I learned to admire that ability just as much as the other aspects of skillful play.

Wally_in_Cincy
09-24-2004, 06:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Okay Tom,

I can see your point where someone can really abuse the situation, but there are sometimes that (thinking along the lines of 14.1 pool) where your opponent is already on one foul and locking them up to do something drastic (like sewing up the object ball with all the other balls) and they don't see that and now you're taking another intentional foul because they're on two and you're on one, it's a beautiful thing.

Barbara~~~been there, done that, and won the match because of it... <hr /></blockquote>

Coincidentally, Tom_in_Cincy has had that very scenario unfold when playing The Hamiltucky Hammer. That's the only time I ever beat him (I think he let me win actually) /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

pooltchr
09-24-2004, 06:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ragin1:</font><hr>I'll shoot an oponents ball if I have to, and intentionaly scratch if needed. <hr /></blockquote>

I was playing one pocket last night. I had one ball out of the cluster sitting in my pocket. MY opponent sank my ball and followed in with the cue ball. I got ball in hand in the kitchen, but my one shot was now behind the spot in the middle of a pack of balls. I could only compliment him on a great move. I would hope I would have done the same thing had I been in his position. It was a SMART shot!
Steve

Chris Cass
09-24-2004, 06:58 AM
Hi nhp,

You'll hear this forever no matter how famous pool gets. How bought the bar players that call it for the sake of a better word Dirty Pool then see the shots to block the opponent from the win by placing their ball in front of the pocket and get all miffed because they missed their shot leaving you stuck?

It's all baloney. Safety play and intentional fouls is just a honest way of playing. imho Not cursing up and down when you and them both know they did it on purpose.

Then there's the players. Offensive, defensive and all playing by the odds. I love the all offensive players. They'll sit and run till they miss and let you out. Those are the players that hear the "Nice try" or the geez, you'ld of been out if you made that shot.

Why can't players understand it's all part of the game. I say, shoot offensively then when it comes down to winning or losing play defensive. If your constantly playing like I do and that's percentages then and only then will you understand when these things are needed.

Sure, I'd like to get out every rack and sometimes when playing the lessor skilled I'll go ahead and shoot offensivly but I find that a form of disrespect, to them.

This is a prime example of what I'm talking about.
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(
%AO5L4%BC3\3%Cq4I7%Dr1I0%Ea0V9%FL6T2%GE7L4%Hf5T2%I D1D1%PS4O0

)END

Should I shoot for the bank to get no shot on the 3 or should I just play the game like it's meant to be played.

This shot for 8 ball with another senerio.

START(
%AK7Z2%B[6B2%Cs9B9%Db0F8%F[3\3%Gt4\3%Hr9R9%Ig5W6%JK5N2%Kc0F0
%L\7D2%MS9U8%NN7Z2%OL7M2%PR9R6
)END

Di I shoot the 1 ball 3 rails and leave the cb behind the stripe or play it and have no chance of making the 4 on my next shot. Playing smart and playing the game as it should be played. That's what your suppose to do. Everyone knows the odds are totally against you when playing 8 ball and leaving one ball left on the table. That's why we have the saying, the player with the most balls on the table wins in 8 ball. You must have 2 left in order to have a chance to win.

I don't know? Maybe, some should just take up a sport without an opponent. I myself aren't trying to degrade the player that believes in not playing safe or take intentional fouls but that to me is not a challenge. I want to see my opponents wheels turning and may the better player win. Not the better shot maker.

At the highest levels of the sport everyone is a great shot maker but the differences come down to who plays smarter and knows their capabilities better than his opponent knows theirs.

Regards,

C.C.~~agrees with nhp on this one.

#### leonard
09-25-2004, 09:26 AM
I am trying to remember if I ever played a safety, let alone a Intentional safety. Now it comes back to me, I played a safety on Babe Cranfield in the Salt City Open and made a kiss shot dead. The Babe made it and ran 23 and out to beat me 125 to 123.

In the next game the Babe lost to the Great Joe Balsis 125-124. Probably the two closest games in pool history.####

onepocketchump
09-25-2004, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "I'm not sure I like this game, intentional fouling makes it not a pure game!"

"It just ain't a pure way to play!"<hr /></blockquote>Is she playing for purity and beauty, or is she playing to win?

If she's playing to win, there's an advantage to knowing all the rules and many of the strategies. If she's playing to win, she should take advantage of every opportunity to do so.

Perhaps she'd understand it better if you liken it to something like baseball, where the pitcher will intentionally walk the batter, or maybe golf, where the player takes a mulligan.

That ain't pure, but it's not cheating and it's a tactical maneuver to help win the game.

If she's playing only for purity and beauty, perhaps she should be learning trick shots rather than competitive games... <hr /></blockquote>

I think in all forms of competition there is a certain satsifaction in winning "honorably" instead of winning with "tainted" methods. The Samurai have a code of honor which dictates how to battle. Gunslngers didn't shoot people in the back. I personally don't like the intentional foul either, it seems unsporting. But I do use it when I need to win the match, especially if it's a league match becuase I am playing for the team.

I played Mexican Rotation last night and the rule there is to make an honest attempt at making your ball. I did that but looked for two way shots that would leave the cueball either safe or with lots of distance if I missed. Truthfully though I had more fun last night playing all out to make balls than I have had in years of one foul nine ball. Me and my opponent both made incredible shots all night long and we both made great kick shots and jump shots as well. Sometimes it justs feels GOOD to go for the SHOT and nail it.

If I have the choice I would rather win with dignity. I get a higher high out of it.

John

Wally_in_Cincy
09-25-2004, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr>

...If I have the choice I would rather win with dignity....<hr /></blockquote>

John, "dignified" is the last word I would use to describe "call-your-shot" 8-ball at my local tavern /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

onepocketchump
09-25-2004, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr>

...If I have the choice I would rather win with dignity....<hr /></blockquote>

John, "dignified" is the last word I would use to describe "call-your-shot" 8-ball at my local tavern /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

LOL - Boy have I seen soime wacked out rules and attitudes about the "right" way to play eight ball in bars. I usually avoid playing pool in bars unless it's a league bar. BUt if you think the rules here are varied, you ought to try playing Last Pocket Eight Ball with the Turks and Italians in Germany. Some of them gamble REAL high but you had better be REAL CLEAR about the rules because they seem to vary from game to game.

John

Wally_in_Cincy
09-25-2004, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr>

LOL - Boy have I seen soime wacked out rules and attitudes about the "right" way to play eight ball in bars. I usually avoid playing pool in bars unless it's a league bar. BUt if you think the rules here are varied, you ought to try playing Last Pocket Eight Ball with the Turks and Italians in Germany. Some of them gamble REAL high but you had better be REAL CLEAR about the rules because they seem to vary from game to game.

John <hr /></blockquote>

I might just steer clear from that scene /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I understand your original point. I was playing "call-your-shot" last night and I admit it is fun going for a bank or a cluster breakout rather than playing safe when you are playing strictly for fun.

adc
09-27-2004, 06:41 AM
I think that your student has to understand several things, and as mentioned by SPetty

"Is she playing for purity and beauty, or is she playing to win?"

So she's got to do what she's got to do to win, doesn't matter what is done given that all fouls are dealt according to the official rules.

Chopstick
09-27-2004, 08:10 AM
Hi Sid,

I believe that the aforementioned attitude towards pool comes from the mistaken belief that pool is a purely physical endeavor. Hand to eye co-ordination being the sole attribute of the game. It is very difficult for these types of people to accept that they are only knocking balls off and have not yet begun to play the game. There is a difference between shooting pool and playing pool.

It may help to compare it to strategies in other games. Chess or even checkers is a good example. It is quiet common to sacrifice a man or more, to close the trap on an opponent. A chess player will do it to you several layers deep. An intentional foul is a sacrifice of their turn at the table. At any skill level it is important to realize that there are circumstances you will face in the game where you can NOT win. Your opponent's goal is to make sure that his happens. The game itself is about altering circumstances from where you can not win into circumstances where you can. If you can't win the game right now on this move, then your next move had better be something that is going to guarantee you get another turn at the table.

As a matter of fact, I was in the middle of an 8 ball match with a very good player, who was actually a better shot than me, when he asked me if I played chess. I told him yes, and I played one pocket also. He had realized too late in the match that he was shooting pool and I was playing pool.

SpiderMan
09-27-2004, 08:46 AM
Is your roof still on your home?

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
09-27-2004, 08:57 AM
Chopstick...I've tried to say the things you suggested but either I suck at diplomacy or else the blinders are simply too large in her head, cuz to her "This dog simply won't hunt" and that's it. There were words spoken directly stating this intentional foul as being dishonest, actually stated emphatically three times for my total impression. I'm sorry to admit that I replied that she had just called me dishonest and about every other regulated player I hang out with as dishonest, and I put the skids on 9-ball tutoring for the time being before I blew up even more. Thanks for the post, I totally understand these presentations, and I have spent hours already saying everything as calmly as I could,,,well, until this last thing with the words dishonest, dishonest, dishonest...sid

SPetty
09-27-2004, 09:15 AM
Hi Sid,

Maybe if you printed out this thread and gave it to her, she'd be able to understand it a little more. Sometimes, it takes hearing something a different way to get the right take on it.

Even those in this thread that don't like to play the intentional foul admit that they would do so if necessary to win the game.

But, it's definitely not something that's worth losing a friend over.

ragin1
09-27-2004, 09:20 AM
Your chess analogy doesn't work. Your opponent that you just surrendered your peice to still has the option to continue his/her manuevers without altering their intentions by taking your gimmee.

I break a 9 ball game. I drop the one. I drop the 2, 3, and 4, but loose shape on the 5. I take a safe and hide the ball behind the 8. My opponent doesn't touch the 5, and I get ball in hand and run the rest out. Work of art. I mess up my shape and get ball in hand by taking my opponent off the table.

Why is it, in pro ring games safties are not allowed? Is the safe shot such a deep strategy that participents in a ring game cannot fathom the outcome of the safety?

Steve Lipsky
09-27-2004, 09:36 AM
Ragin,

In ring games of all types (not just pro), safeties are not allowed because there are more than 2 players playing.

In a standard two player game, if I play a safe on you, I stand to benefit if you miss the hit. You miss the hit, and I get ball-in-hand.

In a 3+ player game, if I play a safe on you, and you miss the hit, neither I nor you benefit. A random third player gets the benefit.

The rule is in place to prevent collusion as well as to keep the game fair, ensuring that (evening out for luck) each player should be presented with some type of a run-out opportunity at the beginning of his inning.

- Steve

ragin1
09-27-2004, 10:03 AM
So if Archer is up to $18,500, and everyone else is down to $4,000, it would be wrong for the player preceeding Archer, to stop Archer, by by tying him up for the next hour, so the others can get back in it. All would benefit from stopping Archer until the money evens out. Would make for ring games of days at a time, but it would also allow the pure "strategy" of the game so many here adore.

Chopstick
09-27-2004, 10:07 AM
Technically it's all atill here. Part on and part in. But I got those new rail cushions installed. Turned out nice. Plays great now.

Steve Lipsky
09-27-2004, 10:17 AM
That strategy is not very rational. If Archer is close to winning, and I'm not, I should keep playing him safe? How does this benefit me? The guy after Archer is going to keep getting great opportunities.

Why is it better for me if the guy after Archer wins, than if Archer wins?

All that being said, ring games are not a great analogy for this. Ring games are by far the most unnatural form of competitive pool.

- Steve

Sid_Vicious
09-27-2004, 10:44 AM
"But, it's definitely not something that's worth losing a friend over."

Nope it's not, that's why I'm taking pool away from this mutual interaction, cuz I ain't worth a crap when I face defiance and innuendoes involving accusatory, sharp, degrading adjectives, depicting what I will choose to legally do, as dishonest. My pool will be with me and the pool hall hounds, probably where it should have stayed anyway...sid

Chopstick
09-27-2004, 10:46 AM
Chess anaogy doesn't work eh? I say good. I prefer players that will go for anything you toss in front of them. I don't want to elaborate on it because there are certain arachnids on this board that I would prefer not to have insights into the veiled strategies that I now employ.

Without giving too much away consider a deliberate miss to bait your opponent into running up a dead end street. Sometimes they will get out and I'm perfectly happy to sit in the chair and say "Good Shot" because that is exactly the kind of behavior I want to encourage.

canwin
09-27-2004, 06:06 PM
I agree with the girl. What you had her do was pussypool (just a term I use) to the extreme but if that's the focus or center of your playing, that's the way your going to play. So you won. Whatever floats your boat. I'm not trying to change anyone because I know that no matter what you say or logic you use, people will always keep their own opinions but you have to realize there are many people that don't think of the extreme safety measures as the pure way to play no matter what the rules say. Safeties, 2 way shots, and intentional safeties, if you didn't have those, where would you be. canwin

SPetty
09-27-2004, 06:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canwin:</font><hr> I agree with the girl. What you had her do was pussypool... <hr /></blockquote>Hi canwin,

So just to be clear, you'd rather lose a game than take an intentional foul that almost guarantees you a win?

It's an unusual opinion, so I'm just clarifying. Most folks, even if they don't like the intentional foul, would still take it in order to ensure the win. Are there no circumstances where you'd take the intentional foul to ensure the win?

Steve Lipsky
09-27-2004, 06:32 PM
Canwin,

Do you think the level of play in your local bar (or poolroom) is higher than that of the professionals? Would you refer to Efren Reyes as a practitioner of dirty pool? Do you think this is part of the reason he is a legend of the game?

On a personal level, why do you feel that playing a safety - where you must control two balls (object ball and cueball) - is not as challenging as playing a shot - where you must only control the cueball?

Have you ever played a game of straight pool? How do you shoot the opening break?

- Steve

Sid_Vicious
09-27-2004, 06:35 PM
Don't forget to remember that this was a partners match, so any decision to play so called "pure" and lose, due to not using a legal, established tactic, impacts that other person, your team mate. I personally do NOT admire that player knowingly throwing the win, giving back all of the efforts of "their team" and the other team mate, and losing for both of them...sid

Ross
09-28-2004, 04:42 AM
Sid, I think you only made one mistake. What you told her was of course correct but when she didn't agree, you kept trying to convince her. So it ended up in a personal tiff. When someone is not ready to hear something, the harder you push, the more stubborn they get. If you tell a student something and they don't get it at the time, remember all of the times that you didn't get something you were told until years later. Just plant the seed and move on, IMO.

Now remember this comes from someone who ignores his own advice futilely arguing politics on the NPR board!

Leviathan
09-28-2004, 05:14 AM
Post deleted by Leviathan

ragin1
09-28-2004, 05:17 AM
Ok. In that aspect yes it does work. If your opponent takes the bait.

The object of the games of pocket billiards I play is to drop balls assigned to me into pockets before my opponent does. When I have to play safe it either means I've made a mistake in shape or I see an obsticle ahead I fear I can't handle. The pool gods greatest gift to the incompetent cueist is the safe shot. Intentional fouls are what they are. A foul. If you repeat it enough you'll foul out. If you repeat a safety enough you'll probally win.

Yoda
09-28-2004, 05:24 AM
I've only been playing seriously for about a year, but often visit this site to learn new ideas. I don't believe I've run into situations where an intentional foul would work, but this came up Sunday nite in an 8-ball tourny. Would not have thought of the intentional foul if I had not read this post. Thanks for the ideas, I won the game.
START(
%Ep2D9%Hr6D0%Iq2Q0%Km8E2%MG4N1%Pr1U7%Wq4S4%Xq6T4%_ r9Y0%`p2F3
%ap9O3
)END

ragin1
09-28-2004, 06:03 AM
I've put the cue straight into the pocket to put my opponent in the kitchen many times. Sometimes it doesn't work of course.

Sid_Vicious
09-28-2004, 06:44 AM
Thing that really get me is that she is the most sincere friend to all friends, new and old, and my telling her that her she had supported her partner with this shot, her partner a long time friend as well, and this junk over the shot is STILL something rattling around in that brain. IMO, anyone who takes to the theory and acceptance of intentional safeties which gives almost automatic BIHs to your side, yet argue to the end of the earth over an intentional foul, which automatically gives THEM bih to do as they wish, including "stick" you very easily(pending circumstances)...the intentional foul for your
team's sake seems far more acceptable to me...sid

Chopstick
09-28-2004, 07:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Don't forget to remember...<hr /></blockquote>

Huh? How exactly does one do that? I once had a doctor ask me if I suffered from memory lapses. I said "Well, if I did, how would I know?"

Steve Lipsky
09-28-2004, 07:40 AM
Yoda, can you clarify your diagrammed shot? For some reason I am having trouble envisioning what you did. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

- Steve

Wally_in_Cincy
09-28-2004, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Yoda, can you clarify your diagrammed shot? For some reason I am having trouble envisioning what you did. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

It looks like he struck his opponent's 9-ball first and banked his 5-ball cross corner, with the 8-ball blocking the corner pocket, making the pocketing of his opponent's stripes a low percentage proposition.

maybe /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SPetty
09-28-2004, 10:12 AM
I'm not Yoda, but I think the point is:

Yoda is solids in this game of 8 ball. There was no easy way to hit the 5 ball, and if he tried some wild and wacky shot, he almost certainly would pocket the 8 ball and lose the game in the process.

His solution was to intentionally foul and hit the stripe ball into the 5 ball without pocketing the 8 ball, thus knocking the 5 ball out (either into or near the bottom right corner pocket). This left his opponent with a tough run out due to the 8 ball still blocking the pocket, but gave him the opportunity to win the game, which he did.

Hope that helps.

Steve Lipsky
09-28-2004, 10:36 AM
Wally/Susan,

Thanks!

Yoda
09-28-2004, 11:12 AM
I had the solids and my opponent left me with my last ball sitting beside the 8 ball, which was hanging in the pocket. I drove his ball into my 5-ball with the intent just to move my 5-ball away from the pocket. Happened to make the 5 in the opposite corner. This gave the opponent ball in hand, but now he has 2 of his balls blocked by the 8. He was kinda shook, I eneded up winning.

Steve Lipsky
09-28-2004, 11:28 AM
Nice shot, sir /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

- Steve

Chris Cass
09-28-2004, 12:01 PM
Hi Yoda,

He got bih and couldn't get out?

C.C.

Rod
09-28-2004, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Yoda,

He got bih and couldn't get out?

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

That's what I say CC. I'd be dead meat if I did something like that. You can imagine what was left easy enough considering the angle and speed needed to bank the 5.

It was a good thought though, know your opponent?? LOL

Rod

Wally_in_Cincy
09-28-2004, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> ...know your opponent?? LOL

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

I would probably have trouble getting out from there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hr0D5%I r0V5%JK6M5
%Kn9D6%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

where does the 11 go?

Steve Lipsky
09-28-2004, 02:01 PM
CC and Rod,

That was my initial thought when the shot was explained to me. However, Yoda might be slightly off with the angle, and if the 9 hits the 11 and they both sorta stay there (with the 9 maybe almost frozen to the rail), I think Yoda's got a shot here.

The opponent can't play any safes (Yoda has an easy kick), so he has to figure out some way to get his ball unstuck from the rail while shooting both in the upper corner. Either that or he has to bank at least one of them, which is never a complete gimme.

If the opponent chooses to use the BIH on the 13 and go 3 rails to move the balls, he has to do it well. Although it's a fairly easy hit, it's not 100%, and if he misses or gets a bad roll, he loses.

Just occurred to me, though, that if Yoda doesn't make his 5 ball (which he claimed was an accident), he's in a pretty unwinnable position. Not dead, but pretty unwinnable.

Anyway, I like the thought behind the shot, even if its application is perhaps not ideal for this setup.

- Steve

Chris Cass
09-28-2004, 02:40 PM
Hi Steve,

I hear what your saying but my initial thought was the unwritten rule in an 8 ball game. That's the person with one ball on the table should no way win the game to begin with.

It's great that he did win but you need atleast 2 balls left on the table to win. With only 1 left the odd are that you'll be played safe everytime till the opponent gets out. I'm curious what happened to leave himself one ball left to begin with.

I've seen some weird stuff happen before and wouldn't put it past some players to get all in a frazzle and not really think that they are in control of the game. The player with the most balls on the table wins a majority of the time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Ross
09-28-2004, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> CC and Rod,

If the opponent chooses to use the BIH on the 13 and go 3 rails to move the balls, he has to do it well. Although it's a fairly easy hit, it's not 100%, and if he misses or gets a bad roll, he loses.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, are you thinking something like this?

START(%Hr6D0%Io2D3%Km8E2%MG4N1%PM9S9%Ur1I1%VL8Z9%W C9D2%XG0M3%Yo8E8
%Zr8G8%]H4O4%^M2S5%eB1b0%bL3Z9%cC1R3%dF8N4)END

Steve Lipsky
09-28-2004, 03:59 PM
Hey Ross. It's not a surprise there was some confusion; I made my post without looking back at the original diagram. My shot is really only 2 rails, lol. Sorry.

START(
%Hr6D0%Io2D3%Km8E2%MG4N1%PH0G2%Ur1I1%VT9[4%WT6[3%XG7M4%Yo8E8
%Zr8G8%]G9L6%^H0H0%eB1b0
)END

But I also, without looking back at the diagram, didn't see how the side pocket was in the way of the most natural path. It's actually not a very easy hit.

Your path works, but it (imo) is a little lower-percentage. It's natural to draw that ball towards the pocket with the 8, so you'll have to consciously miss it.

Sorry for the confusion from my last post /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

- Steve

Rod
09-28-2004, 04:04 PM
I agree Steve, I was just taking the angle for what it is. Perhaps Yoda will tell us where his opponents balls ended up? That right there gives a clue to the original setup and speed he hit the shot.

If there was a bank, it's missable but a fairly easy out. However there is nothing that says you have to do anything, just play safe. Personally depending on the setup I'd rather go for it. I'd hate to lose knowing I had a good opportunity.

Rod

Rod
09-28-2004, 04:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
where does the 11 go? <hr /></blockquote>

In the far corner. If you don't like that just pocket the 9 ball and bank the 11.

Steve Lipsky
09-28-2004, 04:32 PM
Hey Rod. That was one thing I was giving the shot credit for, actually. Since he made his last ball, he just has the 8 left, hanging in the corner. It would be very difficult for his opponent to play a safe that left no reasonable kick on the 8. This made it so his opponent would have to get out, rather than outmove him with safeties.

- Steve

Yoda
09-29-2004, 06:38 AM
Steve:
Layout after my shot was almost exactly as you diagrammed. Opponent also tried your diagrammed shot, but jawed the single ball in the pocket, leaving me the easy out. PS: I got in this mess because opponent made 2 of my balls on his previous turn!

You folks are obviouly way better players than me. I just posted this to let you know that picking up bits of wisdom here and there helps to improve. Anyway, given the position I was in, I still can't think of a better shot than the intentional foul.

bluewolf
09-29-2004, 08:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> a nice finish for all of the work over the last few months. &lt;snip&gt; plus today the statement was actually made from her that "I'm not sure I like this game, intenional fouling makes it not a pure game!" Any real good advice on how to convoke such an opinionated statement? I explained all of the strength that this simple foul almost definitely guaranteed, a 99.9% win I'd say, but the blinders are up BIGTIME! Safeties are an OK issue, she understands the killer tact, but not the intentional stuff, "It just ain't a pure way to play!"

Have you experienced this, and if so, what's the answer.

Thanks,
Sid <hr /></blockquote>

Sid, you should be proud of the way your student has improved as a result of your teaching her, but as regards her reluctance to do a legal intentional foul,there are just some people that will not accept some of the legal options in strategy play nor use these options.

Having said that, I agree with much said here. When intentional fouls are allowed in a particular league or tournament and it is in the players advantage to do one, to not do so just puts them at a disadvantage against players who use all of the strategies available to them, including the intentional foul.

But, if she is dead set against it, in all likelihood you will be unsuccessful in convincing her otherwize. She may have to go to 'the school of hard knocks', and eventually start using the 'intentional foul' once she has been beaten enough by those who legally use this to win. Or she might just continue to be angry when others use this to beat her, even when the rules dictate otherwize.

Sid, you just cannot change a person with a closed mind. If you have already explained this to her, and she persists otherwize, there is nothing you can do about her mental objections, and to continue to try to convince her otherwise, would be a waste of your time. 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink'.

Laura

Sid_Vicious
09-29-2004, 10:19 AM
Thanks Bluewolf. I made a mistake when I did not explain the reasons for the shot at that time, but like I've said, she never questioned my expertise and instructions concerning safeties which IMHO are shi$t'r shots coming from an ex-bar player. It just seems goofy to blow up over some shot that gives the other team BIH instead of the other way around.

You are definitely right though, "my horse still ain't drinkin'"...sid

Ross
09-29-2004, 02:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hey Ross. It's not a surprise there was some confusion; I made my post without looking back at the original diagram. My shot is really only 2 rails, lol. Sorry.

START(
%Hr6D0%Io2D3%Km8E2%MG4N1%PH0G2%Ur1I1%VT9[4%WT6[3%XG7M4%Yo8E8
%Zr8G8%]G9L6%^H0H0%eB1b0
)END

But I also, without looking back at the diagram, didn't see how the side pocket was in the way of the most natural path. It's actually not a very easy hit.

Your path works, but it (imo) is a little lower-percentage. It's natural to draw that ball towards the pocket with the 8, so you'll have to consciously miss it.

Sorry for the confusion from my last post /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Ok, that makes sense. I like the 2 railer better as well. In any case it certainly is not a sure win even with BIH unless there is some other strategy that I don't see.

I thought of a couple of safety possibilities although both of them are tricky and don't ensure a win. One is to lock the cb behind the 9 and block the 1 rail kick on the 8 with the 11:

START(%Hr6D0%Io2D3%Km8E2%MG4N1%Pm8C8%Ur1I1%Vp1Z9%W o9Z5%Xn0F6%eB1b0)END

Of course this requires that there be enough room between the 11 and the rail to place the cb and still get a legal hit stop shot on the 11. Also it requires a delicate touch to not overhit the 11.

Another dodgy safety would be banking the 13 toward the 8. This again blocks the natural 1-rail kick on the 8 and if hit well would leave the opponent either masse'ing or trying an unnatural kick:

START(%Hr6D0%Io2D3%Km8E2%MG2N3%PE3L1%Uk5I8%VV4[1%WU3Z5%XG4N5%eB5a8
%_F7M6%`F2M2%aE8L7)END

I wouldn't recommend either of these safeties because they are as difficult to execute as the runout. And even if hit well, there is still a possibility the opponent will hit the 8. But I do like the "chess move" nature of coming up with creative safeties.

canwin
09-30-2004, 06:34 PM
Hi SPetty,
If I played in a league I would play all the safeties, because it's a part of the rules. I choose not to. I'm not saying that no one should ever play safe, I'm saying that it shouldn't be the focus of the game of 9-ball/8 ball. But because of the ball in hand rules, it has become so and that's my issue. I've seen people use some pretty unnecessary safes. So you can add another one to the list. So now you have the standard safe, the 2-way safe, the intentional safe (shooting at the opponent's ball), and the unnecessary safe (just to piss someone off or frustrate someone as a ploy). There are also people who use the rules to cheat a person who doesn't know the particular rules of the league. Example: someone fouls and says to the opponent while handing the cue ball to them, "You have ball in hand"; so the person takes BIH and after they make a ball, they call a foul and say the cue ball should have been BIH from the kitchen, which they conveniently forgot to mention. You could call that the "you should know the rules safety"; you know, ignorance of the rules is no excuse. Add yet another safety to the list. Maybe this is why I read so much about pettiness and bickering and high school-like behavior in leagues. Add alcohol to the mix and shake well.

canwin
09-30-2004, 06:50 PM
Steve, In answer to your questions-
No, obviously I don't think Reyes is a practitioner of dirty pool, but I do think he doesn't rely on safties as the focus of his game.
In either case, you're controlling two balls, so it's kind of a silly question. How can you possibly think that playing a shot is just controlling the cue ball? Unless you're more worried about playing safe than making the ball.

Yes, I've played straight pool. At least 2 balls have to be driven to the rail on the opening break shot. The opening break is typically a safe shot but there are ways to play a ball. Depends on how strong a player your playing. canwin

canwin
09-30-2004, 06:55 PM
Sid, can you or someone put up a wei diagram of the situation you are talking about so I can see what really happened? Thx canwin

Chris Cass
09-30-2004, 07:49 PM
Hi Wally,

I'm scratching my head about now. I see the 11 going stright up in the corner up table or just shoot the 9 ball in and bank the 11 and out. The bank doesn't seem like a problem for me as these are almost a given being that I've played so much one pocket last yr.

I say, if you have bih you should try to shoot the 11 straight up in the corner first if, you can get the cb behind it if the 8 ball isn't too close. Even a nip shot would do the job. Of course then again the straight pool backround comes into play. If your uncomfortable with the nip shot for fear of fouling then, just grab the jumper and masse the ball. As long as the cb doesn't go past the halfway point I don't see a problem. You could just use your regular cue but I find if you don't need a whole lot of power when jacked up? I just grab the jump cue.

Regards,

C.C.

Steve Lipsky
09-30-2004, 08:13 PM
Hi Canwin. Thanks for responding.

As to Efren, I think it's fairly obvious that safety play is not the focus of his game. I'm not sure that it is the focus of anyone's game, or at least anyone who claims to be a competitive player. Some people like to play safe more than others, but faced with a runnable rack, they're gonna go for the out. I think you might be exaggerating the remarkably few players who choose to play safe when they have an available out.

For the controlling two balls issue, you are most certainly not doing that when you are pocketing one of them. As soon as that ball is pocketed, it's down - it is no longer in play. When playing safe, the object ball and the cueball are both still on the table, and still rolling until they stop. You must control where they both land. Basically, safeties involve everything a shot does, and then some.

As to playing an offensive shot on the opening break of straight pool, in my opinion this has nothing to do with the strength of your opponent. Anything other than a safe on the opening break is a sign of tremendous disrespect - not just to the opponent's game, but to him as a competitor.

Anyway, you are more than entitled to your opinions, because we're all free to enjoy the game in the manner we please. I am sorry if I jumped the gun a bit earlier. My only issue is that I will never have a problem with an opponent who refused to play safe, and it sometimes bothers me when these same people will try to dictate their beliefs on others.

- Steve

Rod
09-30-2004, 08:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm saying that it shouldn't be the focus of the game of 9-ball/8 ball. But because of the ball in hand rules, it has become so and that's my issue. I've seen people use some pretty unnecessary safes. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree to a degree with your opinion. Once BIH started many players direction is as you said. However safeties were always part of the game it just opened up peopleís eyes.

Before BIH there was push out. You could play safe and many did, it's just the other player had the option of a push. You could still play safe again if you wanted to change ball positions and may get another push. Maybe this one is more to your liking. If you fouled though it's BIH. Intentional fouls was definitely part of this game itís just there was no BIH for first offence, usually it was a push.

Safety play has always been around but now it's much easier to get BIH. I think that appeals more to the newer generation of players.

Something I have done on occasion is play a newer style player push out and no jump cues. Rarely happens now but their dead meat. Most just don't know what to do. They play a lock up safety and I push out, WTF! LOL You really don't need a jump cue but they need it if nothing more than a security blanket. Ah yes, the game has changed but that's ok with me too.

Chris Cass
09-30-2004, 09:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canwin:</font><hr> Steve, In answer to your questions-
No, obviously I don't think Reyes is a practitioner of dirty pool, but I do think he doesn't rely on safties as the focus of his game.

In either case, you're controlling two balls, so it's kind of a silly question. How can you possibly think that playing a shot is just controlling the cue ball? Unless you're more worried about playing safe than making the ball.

Yes, I've played straight pool. At least 2 balls have to be driven to the rail on the opening break shot. The opening break is typically a safe shot but there are ways to play a ball. Depends on how strong a player your playing. canwin <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Canwin,

I wanted to reply to your answer to Steve because you bring up some things that are important to the game. There's only two things you can do in any game. You have no choices. It's either play safe or run out. Both shots are equally important and controlling both the ob and whitey is key to winning. Whether it be safe or even making the ball. The shots not over till whitey stops and you'll want to know where that will be before even shooting the ball. Too many players just assumme the cb will go in the gen direction. You must play the cb position also to win.

Now, the player that's just playing safe to annoy or frustrate their opponent tells me two things. Either, he or she can't get out or they know their opponents weakness is the ability to get frustrated by this strategy. I don't know about you but that would only pump me up and not frustrate me in the least.

Sometimes you have to play a few safes in a row to either try and get the 3 foul or just jockey the balls into the right places to get out. Say, break up a few clusters or tied up balls, moving them in place, to run.

Far as the Straight pool break goes. That's totally off the wall. The opening break is the best odds to start the game. I don't think it's disrespecting your opponent to break otherwise like Steve had mentioned. It's just dangerously aggressive.

You can make 6 possible shots on the opening break besides the safety but I must warn you. If you miss, and your playing someone like Mr. Lipsky, be prepared to pay. Just grab the rack and hold onto it. You'll need to make friends with the chair as well.

Intentional fouls and safety play is all part of the game if, your playing to win. If your standards are higher than anyone elses are then, by all means do it your way. Just don't complain when your broke or lose.

I don't want to come off like I'm trying to belittle your values but merely pointing out that the game is played with intelligent players and would think with one purpose in mind. To play to win.

I think someone once wrote in a book about the type of players that are playing this game. Some are strickly aggressive offensive, aggressive defensive and aggressive percentage player. They're all aggressive and what ever the style of play is? They all want to reach the same objective.

This game as you know is all about knowing ones self and ones self capabilities. Efren, he's a agressive offensive player but knows his capabilities more than most. That's what makes him so hard to beat. Some players go for shots that are a bit out of their boundries as far as odds and will give Efren a shot.

I made that mistake with Niel Fejen at the Open. I paid dearly and will never forget it either. I saw a low percentage shot that I have made dozens of times but I went against my better judgement and went for it. I was suppose to play safe but didn't. Why, because I too am an aggressive percentage player. That's both defensive and offensive combined.

I've since been working on listening to myself better. I know myself and my capabilities very well. I'm also a very good gambler. I'm not a very good tournament player and I know that's what I need to work on. The thing is, whatever your style of play is? Be prepared to pay for your mistakes and try to keep an open mind to others choices or style of play. You'll benefit by it in the long run. jmho

Regards,

C.C.

Chopstick
10-03-2004, 08:07 AM
Wow Sid, this turned out to be some post. 85 replies and counting. I also have some friends, who aren't regular players but I play with them from time to time, who have that frame of mind. Here is a scenario that used to convert the unbelievers. This actaully happened to me in an eight ball game in South Carolina. I am solids and I am facing a good player and he leaves me this.

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A tougn cut on the three, can't see the full ball on the seven. Might be possible to spin the seven in but either shot would sell out the game if I miss or don't get perfect shape. The seven is blocking most of the corner pocket for the bank.

Solution:

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I explained the solution to my friends as "I bank the three at pocket speed cross corner, stop the cue ball behind the five and I don't even care if the three goes in. If the three hits the seven they will both be in front of the corner. As it actually happened the three went in and I had a tap in out to win the game." Right then my friend says "Well that ain't right if you don't care if it goes in." I explained that shot making skills don't mean anything if you pick the right targets. I can make any shot the pros can make but they will beat me every time because their gamesmanship is better than mine. In this situation there was a shot that would checkmate my opponent but I wouldn't have seen it if I wasn't looking for the best move to make instead of the best shot to make. They took my advice and actually won a few games.

Sid_Vicious
10-03-2004, 02:47 PM
"Just grab the rack and hold onto it. You'll need to make friends with the chair as well."

Now that is a compliment I'd enjoy aspiring to, especially coming from you Chris. Sounds like Steve is a handful...sid

Sid_Vicious
10-03-2004, 03:11 PM
Chopstick...I saw half the shot before seeing the solution, mine was more timid, slow rolling, without pushing the 3 all the way across the table because frankly, my safety-stop behind the 5 ain't that consistent hitting with speed, but it sure ought to, it's text book for real players like yourself. Strangely though I kinda had an experience this weekend while on a motorcycle rally, I was playing some very weak 8-ball players, locals for sure, so I played much the same shot just being agressive for a possible bank but seeing the two-way maybe with the "oops" safe, just trying to be "honest" in a devious way(mostly bar rules, nobody played intentional safeties)if you know what I mean. In my case I hit the bank and had little work on the table to impress the gathering, and with a wall cue no less, but it did have a nice tip. I scouted out the cue from the rest when I first cruised the place and luckily nobody wanted it before I squirmed my way into their rotation Nice hit for a cue that has seen some brutal handling.

I suppose you might say I played down with them, but take my word for it, some of these guys were almost definitely buzzed out on something high octane, and I am not talking about booze. The last guy was the straw breaker, MAN that dude was wired for sound, so I packed it in right after that game finished. WAY too much electricity in the group, and I certainly didn't need trouble with me being a lone indian in their town. Sometimes you just have to know when it's not a good idea to continue, even though nothing's been started yet, you "just know."

Thanks...sid

Chris Cass
10-03-2004, 09:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "Just grab the rack and hold onto it. You'll need to make friends with the chair as well."

Now that is a compliment I'd enjoy aspiring to, especially coming from you Chris. Sounds like Steve is a handful...sid
<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Sid,

Let me say this about Steve Lipsky. You don't have to get a shot and he doesn't have to miss. That's the honest truth of the matter. I've seen him play and his bad day is better than most players good day. lol

Regards,

C.C.~~gives credit where credit is due. nothing more and nothing short of honest from me. compliment? Just telling it like it is. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

canwin
10-04-2004, 12:58 PM
Steve Lipsky, I'll try to answer some more questions.
Most all people on this forum who voice their opinions believe they are right, and forcefully or mildly try expounding their beliefs on others. What makes me nervous is that its become very easy to make unsubstantiated claims/statements that sound like facts, without having to produce evidence/examples/or an explanation to back their statements/beliefs up. Quote, "When playing safe, the obj. ball and the Q ball are both still on the table and still rolling until they stop. You must control where they both land. Basically, safeties involve everything a shot does, and then some." Steve, can you give me some specific examples of why you think this to be true? If I define what a shot is to me and what I think is the difference between it and a safe shot is, and why a shot is the more challenging shot, you'll see my logic. Normally, if something isn't logical it's usually not true. A shot is when you make a ball and get shape on another to continue a run. There are things that can happen(consequences) when you shoot a shot(that make it more challenging) than a safe shot. The consequences of taking a shot are; you make the shot, get shape and continue to the next shot, you make the shot and play poor shape to where you can't make the next shot or hook yourself completely, you make the shot and scratch, miss the shot and scratch, or miss the shot and sell out. I've seen lots of money lost on easy shots that become more difficult due to the challenge of also having to play shape on the next ball. Then there are the tougher shots with tricky shape. My point is, you have to make the ball and get shape(sans BIH) to continue the run and that takes more control and has more consequences of it's proper execution. That's my definition of a shot compared to a safe shot. Anything that doesn't fill that requirement is a safe shot. My definition of a safe shot is a the polar opposite of a shot because it doesn't meet the requirements and consequences of a shot. The ball doesn't have to be made and no position has to be played for the next shot. You can just play position to play safe if you want to totally avoid the next shot. The consequences of a safe shot not executed properly can be as dire as a poorly executed shot but in many cases its extremely rare between two experienced players. And the ultimate payoff for executing a safe shot is BIH. And I especially don't like it when experienced players use it on amateurs. There are some instances where a safe shot can be thought of as a shot as in the case of Chopsticks example. His decision was based on the safest of the 3 choices brought on by not wanting to sell out if he missed the cut shot and/or didn't get perfect shape, ( which I stated above as one of the consequences of a shot that makes a shot more challenging than that of a safe shot) Something you have to take into account when you take an actual shot . It was a safe decision as he states; he didn't care if the 3 went in or not, as long as the q ball was hidden from the next shot of his opponent. He was only trying to control one ball and that was the q ball, whether the 3 went in or not and goes on to say that shot making skills don't mean anything in this case. Its true. Meanwhile another guy says he would have slow rolled the Qball into the 3 going for the same outcome. This proves my point. Taking the shot to cut the 3 in the corner was the toughest option (not necessarily the wisest -but who's to say if you make the shot and get shape, it's certainly more exciting)compared to the safe (shots) for the reasons I stated above. To wrap this up I want to say that safes are a natural part of the game. If the 3 wouldn't have gone, he still would have had a great advantage to win even without the BIH rule. In a pressure situation , stopping the Q ball behind the 5 or leaving it in that general area was the shot to take, but it was a safe shot non the less, compared to that of an actual shot and the easier of the two. It was the smarter of the shots considering the situation but also the one requiring the least amount of challenge, hence the word safe. The game could be more exciting with more attitude if you had to go for more shots, but as it stands now, it has that boring sterilized predictability.

Quote, "My only issue is that I will never have a problem with an opponent who refuses to play safe, and it sometimes bothers me when these same people will try to dictate their beliefs on others." I think you've mistaken my viewpoint as being: safeties should never be considered or attempted at any time or any situation in 9-ball, 8-ball and straight pool and that you should only look for shots that you can make and if there isn't any attempt one anyway. Hope this gives you a glimpse. 9-ball was and is more exciting than what it is now.. . Canwin

Deeman2
10-04-2004, 02:22 PM
I played a guy about 15 years ago in a nine ball tournament in Nashville (JOBS). We were playing in the quarters's so he had gotten pretty far and was clearly a better shotmaker than me and most others I have seen. He passed up several safeties (obvious to a player of his level) for three rail banks and nasty caroms. He lost and I asked him why he didn't play the safeties? He said, "I guess I play for a different reason than you." Not smart alec or anything, he was a very nice guy. I thought about this match many times over the years and I really believe he just enjoyed the challenge of the really great shots of which he made a few (more than I would have). I thought he wasted his entry fee but who knows? I still think of some of his shots on occasion. Maybe he just had to catch a bus, I don't really know!

Deeman

Chris Cass
10-05-2004, 09:55 AM
Hi Deeman 2,

Some players play to the crowd. I call them hotdogs. I'm glad the dude lost. Not because I like that kind of thing but because he deserved it. I think that was very disrespectful to you as a fellow player. To take you with a grain of salt tells me that it was all about him. Well, he got what he wanted. imho

Regards,

C.C.~~doesn't get his kicks of others loses.