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UWPoolGod
09-24-2004, 10:24 AM
How many rails are on a pool table? 4 or 6? Our new fun league director says 4, I say 6. So by his rules, if you had to drive a ball to another rail if it is frozen then it has to be one of the other 3 full rails..not including the other half on the same side. Like this shot:

WEI Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

While playing safe by grazing the 4 you go to the other side of the pockets rail and stop it after it hits the rail like this:
START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DY6D0%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HV3C9%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PX2F6%WY3E5%XX8E7%Y]8D0%ZZ5E0
)END

That would be a foul in his book, you would have to do this to be legal:
START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DY6D0%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HV3C9%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PW8F7%Wr5F7%X_1D0%Y]8D0%ZZ5E0
%[Y5E5%\X2F6
)END

Who is right?


By his logic also if you shot this ball down the rail and it stayed on the rail and didn't hit it hard enough to get to the pocket it would be a foul. The balls stop at the end of the arrows:

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DY6D0%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HV3C9%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PW8F7%Wr5F7%X_1D0%Y]8D0%ZZ5E0
%[Y5E5%\X2F6
)END

Since the 4 is frozen it is part of the rail. So the cueball or object ball would have to be driven to another rail. Hmm.

What is your take? Not many people like the guy..

Barbara
09-24-2004, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> How many rails are on a pool table? 4 or 6? Our new fun league director says 4, I say 6. So by his rules, if you had to drive a ball to another rail if it is frozen then it has to be one of the other 3 full rails..not including the other half on the same side. Like this shot:

WEI Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

While playing safe by grazing the 4 you go to the other side of the pockets rail and stop it after it hits the rail like this:
START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DY6D0%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HV3C9%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PX2F6%WY3E5%XX8E7%Y]8D0%ZZ5E0
)END

That would be a foul in his book, you would have to do this to be legal:
START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DY6D0%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HV3C9%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PW8F7%Wr5F7%X_1D0%Y]8D0%ZZ5E0
%[Y5E5%\X2F6
)END

Who is right? <font color="blue">He is. There are 4 rails to a table.</font color>


By his logic also if you shot this ball down the rail and it stayed on the rail and didn't hit it hard enough to get to the pocket it would be a foul. The balls stop at the end of the arrows:

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DY6D0%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HV3C9%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PW8F7%Wr5F7%X_1D0%Y]8D0%ZZ5E0
%[Y5E5%\X2F6
)END

Since the 4 is frozen it is part of the rail. So the cueball or object ball would have to be driven to another rail. Hmm.

What is your take? Not many people like the guy.. <hr /></blockquote>

Sorry you don't like him, but he is correct.

Barbara

Fred Agnir
09-24-2004, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> How many rails are on a pool table? 4 or 6? Our new fun league director says 4, I say 6. <hr /></blockquote>There are four. Even if the two long rails come in two pieces each, it's still four.


I'm confused at your diagram. If the cueball hits the cushion after contacting the four, that's a legal hit in BCA rules.

Fred

Mr Ingrate
09-24-2004, 10:47 AM
I concur with Barbara. 4 rails and 6 cushions.

UWPoolGod
09-24-2004, 10:51 AM
Alright the verbage had me confused, 4 rails/6 cushions. K thanks for the help.

Bob_Jewett
09-24-2004, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> How many rails are on a pool table? 4 or 6? <hr /></blockquote>
There are four rails and six cushions.

However, the current rule on driving a ball to a cushion is broken. If the object ball is frozen to the corner of the side pocket, and you rattle it back and forth in the jaws without any other rail contact, it is presently considered a foul. This is one of the most broken parts of the current rule set.

Rod
09-24-2004, 11:43 AM
4 rails and 6 cushions. The shots you diagramed are legal shots though. All the c/b has to do is contact a rail after o/b contact. It can be the same rail the 4 is on or even the same cushion. Some games like 14-1 has specific rules reguarding safeties but I take it your playing 8 ball.

Rod

ras314
09-24-2004, 11:52 AM
Rod, I thought the cb or some other ball has to contact a different rail than the ob is frozen to. Which brings up the original question of how many rails are there?

I've read several threads on the issue and still can't seem to get the blasted rule straight. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

ChrisW
09-24-2004, 11:58 AM
Someone will post the rule but
It says that the object ball (four) has to
hit a different rail or the cue ball has
to hit a (any) rail after contact

Chris.....4 rails and 6 cushions

ChrisW
09-24-2004, 12:00 PM
I agree with you Fred.
They both look like legal shots


Chris

Rod
09-24-2004, 12:21 PM
Don't see that happen very often but if someone called me on that I'd smack him. LOL

One I have called many times is a ball frozen, or not frozen to a cushion. They hit rail first and foul because the o/b never made it to the pocket. I've had a couple arguments on that when the ball was frozen though. I'll rarely call it unless it's obvious. If it's to close to call it goes to the shooter. I've always been amazed by how well some people play and don't know if they hit ball or rail first. Probably about 75 or more percent of the pool playing population don't know.
Rod

Rod
09-24-2004, 12:32 PM
Ras,

Four rails. Meaning, if you contact the 4 first and hit the same rail with the c/b it's legal. I think I mentioned cushion also but that was just to identify where the 4 was. In fact that cushion is considered part of one long rail.


Rod

ras314
09-24-2004, 12:33 PM
OK, I actually broke down an read the rule book that I bought so those ignorant bar bangers could read the rules. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
For an ob frozen to the rail General rule 3.38 says to be legal the shot must result in

a) a ball being pocketed, or;
b) the cue ball contacting a cushion, or; (note that it does not require a different cushion or rail)
c) The frozen ball being to contact a cushion attached to a seperate rail, or;
d)another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact.

Yep, according to this rattleing a ball frozen to the corner of a pocket is a foul if the cb doesn't hit a rail. Don't think I'd have enough nerve to call that one on anyone.

Rod
09-24-2004, 12:36 PM
Here, under general rules. LOL

3.38 OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL
This rule applies to any shot where the cue ballís first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either:

(a) A ball being pocketed, or;

(b) The cue ball contacting a cushion, or;

(c) The frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion attached to a separate rail, or;

(d) Another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot.

BCgirl
09-24-2004, 03:25 PM
It sometimes amazes me how often rules are misinterpreted. In the world champioship at Cardiff a few years ago, Steve Davis played a clever little shot that was something like that shown below (don't remember the precise shot). The commentators, including the usual top pro, couldn't see the shot, saying that SD had to hit the CB to another rail. Davis made the shot, leaving his opponent in a nice snooker.

START(
%AO8C9%Bq9Q5%CI5I2%DQ6D0%ES4I9%FP2W0%Gg6L4%HR5F7%I N4P6%JB3\4
%KB5\3%LB4\0%MB5\2%NB3\2%OB3\3%PN3D6%[P9E2%\O1D6%]S6D3%^Q9E6
)END

The next shot, too, would be legal, because what's important is that the OB leaves the rail before contacting another.

START(
%AS2C9%Bq9Q5%CG1Q3%DT9E3%EQ2H2%FP2W0%Gg6L4%HS0F7%I N4P6%JB3\4
%KB5\3%LB4\0%MB5\2%NB3\2%OB3\3%PQ2E6%WU6D1%XU1D3%Y T5D1%ZT2C8
%[Q9D4%\Q6D8%]Q8F3%^R1C5
)END

Unfortunately, the rules are often badly written, and you will find instances, even with a single set of rules (like BCA) where the wording changes from year to year, and still remains ambiguous under some circumstances.

I'm sure most students of the game can come up with a list of incidents where even top referees wrongly called a foul, or failed to call a foul, through lack of knowledge of some speciic rule.

BCgirl

Chris Cass
09-24-2004, 03:46 PM
Unfortuanatly the rule states 4 but I say 6. Then, you have the facings. They're not part of the rails either. What's up with that? I feel if a ball doesn't strike a rail but stops on the shelf, you've broken the rail so to speak. Rules are rule though. What are ya gonna do?

Regards,

C.C.

Troy
09-24-2004, 04:20 PM
I don't think this is a legal shot since A) it looks like the CB hits rail first, and B) the 1-ball appears to hit the same rail it's frozen against and no other ball(s) hit a rail.
May be just the way it shows on the WEI table though... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCgirl:</font><hr> The next shot, too, would be legal, because what's important is that the OB leaves the rail before contacting another.

START(
%AS2C9%Bq9Q5%CG1Q3%DT9E3%EQ2H2%FP2W0%Gg6L4%HS0F7%I N4P6%JB3\4
%KB5\3%LB4\0%MB5\2%NB3\2%OB3\3%PQ2E6%WU6D1%XU1D3%Y T5D1%ZT2C8
%[Q9D4%\Q6D8%]Q8F3%^R1C5
)END

BCgirl <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
09-25-2004, 01:29 AM
Troy,

I doubt he hit rail first. If a good ref was watching he may not get away with it, saying the one never left the rail. I suspect he hit the one first with right and used the 5 to stop the c/b. Those little shots come around every once in a while and sometimes are overlooked.

Rod

BCgirl
09-25-2004, 01:35 AM
Troy, you confirm one of the comments that I made, re. the ambiguity in badly phrased rules.

BCA 3.38 (d) says that one of three conditions must be met, and you are correct that that shot doesn't meet those conditions, but it then goes on to say, in the context of additional rules :

"A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again."

Now, that comment is entirely meaningless unless it is intended to specifically legalize the shot that I diagrammed.

But, again, it illustrates the point that there are cases where two intelligent people can reach a subtly different interpretation of the rules.

BCgirl

Rod
09-25-2004, 02:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Now, that comment is entirely meaningless unless it is intended to specifically legalize the shot that I diagrammed.
<hr /></blockquote>

Well guess what? that's exactly why it's there. However there are lots of variations of that shot where this rule is used.

Rod

Troy
09-25-2004, 09:01 AM
Looking at the set-up again, I see that you are quite correct. I agree, the comment in the rules legitimizes what I failed to see at first glance.

Troy...~~~ Knows when he erred.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCgirl:</font><hr>
Troy, you confirm one of the comments that I made, re. the ambiguity in badly phrased rules.

BCA 3.38 (d) says that one of three conditions must be met, and you are correct that that shot doesn't meet those conditions, but it then goes on to say, in the context of additional rules :

"A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again."

Now, that comment is entirely meaningless unless it is intended to specifically legalize the shot that I diagrammed.

But, again, it illustrates the point that there are cases where two intelligent people can reach a subtly different interpretation of the rules.

BCgirl <hr /></blockquote>

woody_968
09-26-2004, 12:44 AM
If the cueball hits the object ball and rail at the same time and doesnt go to another rail wouldnt this also be a foul?

Had the question come up the other day and just want to be sure I was correct on this.

Rod
09-26-2004, 12:59 AM
If it's at the same time, it should go to the shooter. Who is going to determine what it hit first or split hit? A good ref isn't likely to call foul, unless it's more obvious. Something like that can be tough to call so, like I said, it goes to the shooter. It's not hard to tell what it hit first in many cases but split hits are. It's the same a calling a good or bad hit when two balls are close together. If it's too close, it goes to the shooter.

Rod

NH_Steve
09-27-2004, 04:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Don't see that happen very often but if someone called me on that I'd smack him. LOL

One I have called many times is a ball frozen, or not frozen to a cushion. They hit rail first and foul because the o/b never made it to the pocket. I've had a couple arguments on that when the ball was frozen though. I'll rarely call it unless it's obvious. <font color="red">If it's to close to call it goes to the shooter.</font color> I've always been amazed by how well some people play and don't know if they hit ball or rail first. Probably about 75 or more percent of the pool playing population don't know.
Rod <hr /></blockquote> In general, I like that rule alot about close calls going to the shooter, but actually I think when it comes to frozen balls, it should be just the opposite -- <font color="red">when playing safe off a frozen ball, it should be the shooter that has to conclusively demonstrate that legal contacts were made</font color>. Because they are electing to make it a tough call by choosing to play off a frozen ball -- of course sometimes there is little choice /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif