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highsea
09-25-2004, 06:31 AM
I don't blame anyone who doesn't read this. This is as short as I could make it. Sorry.

When the CBS memo scandal hit the fan, the reaction from the DNC was predictable. Terry McAuliffe vehemently denied any knowledge of the memos, and even went as far as suggesting Karl Rove was the source. Of course we all know now that Rather's "unimpeachable" source was Bill Burkett, the formy Texas Army National Guardsman. (notice I said Army NG, not Air NG? The terminology in the memos was Army lingo, not Air Force.)

Now bear with me, there are some remarkable coincidences, particularly regarding the timing of the 60 Minutes story, the shift in Kerry's rhetoric after the GOP convention, a DNC ad campaign, and a certain 527 group called "Texans for Truth".

We'll start with CBS.

Mary Mapes, the producer of the story had been trying for 5 years to track down the rumored documents. In Mid-August, she went to her bosses and told them that she had finally tracked down a source who claimed to have access to the memos. source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A31727-2004Sep18?language=printer)

In an August 21 web posting on a Yahoo group for Texas Democrats, Burkett complained about the difficulty he had getting through to the Kerry campaign. He had some information he wanted to share, but in his words, he had to wade through ""seven layers of bureaucratic kids trying to get a job after the election" before he finally got on the phone with Max Cleland, who was Kerry's veterans coordinator. In his posting, Burkett also hinted that he spoke to other "seniors" in the campaign, but didn't give any names.

About his conversation with Cleland, Burkett wrote: "I asked if they wanted to counterattack or ride this to ground. . . . He said counterattack. So I gave them the information to do it with. But none of them have called me back." source (http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=5169)

So we have the coincidence of CBS learning about the documents about the same time as Burkett sent them to the Kerry Campaign.

Now, a couple days after the memos came under attack, Rather, defending the story, stated that CBS had been working on the story for "weeks" before it aired. That may be true, but they did not actually receive the memos from Burkett until September 2nd. by fax, and Mapes told her boss the next day. (Part of the deal was that Mapes would help Burkett get in contact with the Kerry Campaign, which she did. She arranged a phone call on Sept. 4th between Burkett and Joe Lockhart, a top Kerry aide and former press secretary for Clinton.) source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A31727-2004Sep18?language=printer)

If CBS first received the memos from the Kerry campaign, they couldn't use them in the story. They needed to find the original source. One of the experts hired by CBS said that Mapes had told her that CBS received the memos anonymously in the mail. source (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6039850/site/newsweek/)

Then there was Josh Marshall's comments about Ben Barnes on September 1, Six days before Rather had supposedly met with Barnes, and before CBS had received the memos from Burkett."...But apparently those threats haven't done the trick because he has already taped a lengthy interview slated to appear in the not-too-distant future on a major national news show in which he'll describe the strings he pulled to keep Bush out of Vietnam and apparently more.

(Between you and me, according to my three sources on this, Barnes told his story to Dan Rather -- remember, the Texas connection -- for 60 Minutes.)" source (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_08_29.php#003398)

You have to admire Rather's clairvoyance several days before Burkett gave the memos to CBS. Here's what he asked Laura Bush in the skybox during the Republican Convention: "Now that friends and supporters of the President have raised the issue of John Kerry's combat record in Vietnam, do you or do you not think it's fair now for the Kerry people to come back and dig anew into your husband's military service record?"

Then there was Kerry's reaction to Bush's Convention speech. On September 2nd., Kerry offered up a scathing attack on Bush's Guard service. After suffering through several weeks of ads criticizing Kerry's Vietnam days, this surprised the pundits, who thought Kerry would want to shift attention away from Vietnam.

On September 6th., Howard Wolfson, who was a former aide to Hillary Clinton, began a DNC PR campaign called "Operation Fortunate Son", that attacked Bush's Guard service. The campaign officially aired on September 9th., one day after the CBS episode. This included a 3 minute Internet ad portraying Bush as a shirker, and included footage from the 60 Minutes Episode.

And on September 8th., the same day as the 60 minutes report, the 527 group "Texans for Truth" began airing their campaign attacking Bush's Guard service! source (http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=5169)

By Sept. 10th, other Dems like Tom Harkin and Terry McAuliffe had jumped in started hammering on Bush in the media to "tell the truth" about his guard service.

Now, you have to admit that is a lot of coincidences. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Call me cynical, but this is how I think things really went down.

Burkett contacted Cleland around Mid-August. Cleland passed him off to Lockhart and Burkett gave Lockhart the memos. A plan is hatched to exploit the memos, and try to draw attention away from the SBV ads. They decide to hit GW right after the GOP convention, just like the SBV's did to Kerry. Lockhart passes the memos to CBS. CBS goes back to the DNC and tells them they can't use the story without the source and corraboration. Lockhart gives them Burkett and Barnes.

Barnes agrees to go on the air again with his claims, provided he has some corraboration. He was discredited the first time he tried that, and doesn't want to get burned. CBS and Lockhart show him the memos, and Barnes agrees. Rather tapes the segment with Barnes during the GOP convention.

CBS goes to Burkett, and wants Burkett to send them the memos directly, so they can show they didn't come from the DNC. Burkett is reluctant to do this, and makes CBS arrange a conference with Lockhart. Lockhart assures Burkett that he will remain anonymous, so Burkett agrees, and faxes the memos to CBS from Abilene.

The stage is set. The CBS story is in the can, now all the DNC needs to do is crank up the volume. They get a copy of the video from CBS and Wolfson does the Operation Fortunate Son campaign. At the same time they get the "Texans for Truth" ad together, plan their speeches and reactions to the story, etc. Everyone's chomping at the bit. They're finally going to get even for the SBV ads.

But in CBS's eagerness to break the great story, they ignore the obvious problems with the memos. They have Barnes as a backup, and they are all so sure the story is true, they don't give the memos a decent vetting. Within hours after the story is aired, the bloggers latch on, and things start to come apart. The rest is history.

Wisely (and this is the first time the DNC has done something right), they immediately drop Guard story and start screaming at the top of their lungs about Iraq.

Fair_Play
09-25-2004, 08:05 AM
Hard to blame Kerry because his staff was duped, and felt a need to strike Bush. Legal, ethical, and moral niceties aside (as they were certain they had a live bomb). Then there comes the 'collusion' between the various groups. In the case of CBS it was simply hubris, and the certain knowledge that their power was invincible. A sad affair - Had the memos been genuine, would there be any issue at all with any of the machinations that took place vis a vis CBS/DNC/527's?
Kerry is now surrounded by and wrapped in so many U.S. flags: pardon, but that brings to mind "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".

highsea
09-25-2004, 08:23 AM
Lol. You crack me up fair_play.

It also brings to mind "The inmates are running the asylum". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
09-25-2004, 08:30 AM
Thanks for the summation. This story is not over yet.

Anyone care to start a pool for Dan Rather's departure date? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Qtec
09-25-2004, 09:43 PM
OK. I will just ask one question.

[ QUOTE ]
In another development, the Los Angeles Times reported that an Atlanta lawyer with conservative Republican connections posted the first Web log entry questioning the authenticity of the CBS documents less than four hours after the initial broadcast on "60 Minutes." The paper identified Harry W. MacDougald as the "Buckhead," who became a hero of conservative Web sites after pointing out technical problems with the documents, such as fonts and proportionate spacing.
<hr /></blockquote>


Do you think it is CREDIBLE that J.Kerry and the Dems would risk their whole campaign on documents that only held up FOR 4HOURS???????????





Doesnt make sense, does it?

CBS and Rather wanted this story so bad, [ remember they had been searching for these'documents'for years ] they were blind to the truth.

Q

nhp
09-26-2004, 04:52 AM
What you guys are missing here is something of pure genius on behalf of the Bush administration.

Think about it- Bush has stayed quiet about his questionable service in the Air National Guard. Bush knew that the Dems were gonna use this against them, but him staying quiet about it made the Dems feel that he had no way to defend himself. So the Dems go bloodthirsty, and hastily make assumptions about Bush's guard service, and suddenly those assumptions are proven to be false. The pure genious is Bush let the Dems dig their own grave on that very issue, and he didn't even have to say a word. This just might win the election for him.

highsea
09-26-2004, 11:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Do you think it is CREDIBLE that J.Kerry and the Dems would risk their whole campaign on documents that only held up FOR 4HOURS???????????

Doesnt make sense, does it? <hr /></blockquote>Well, Kerry was being killed by the SBV ads. If they didn't do something quick, the campaign was dead anyway. When Burkett dropped the memos on them, they thought they could use them to take the attention off Kerry's vietnam service and focus it on Bush's Guard time. They had to do something, and the memos were perfect for the job. Lol, I don't think they are going to hire Burkett as a campaign strategist. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I don't think they wanted to know if they were real or not. But they had to do something, so they gave them to Rather. They wanted to draw blood, and by passing the memos off to CBS, they could deny any involvement. Plus it would look pretty funny if they broke the story themselves anyway, nobody would believe it. They couldn't vet the memos themselves, because that would leave a potential trail back to them. And hey, they wanted to believe they were real just as bad as CBS did.

But what's striking to me is not just the CBS screwup, but that the Dems setup a whole strategy around the story. It strains credibility that the DNC could put together the Fortunate Son ad campaign, and include the CBS footage in the ad only 12 hours or so after the story aired. I mean think about it, they had to produce the ad, get permission from CBS to use the footage, distribute the ad, buy airtime, etc.

Anyway, if you ask me, the whole thing stinks of a coordinated effort by the DNC, Texans for Truth, and CBS. It just goes to show how desperate they're getting.

And I've NEVER accused Kerry of being CREDIBLE.

highsea
09-26-2004, 11:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>The pure genious is Bush let the Dems dig their own grave on that very issue, and he didn't even have to say a word. <hr /></blockquote>Kind of ironic that the subject of the memos was "CYA". Lol. Something the Dems didn't do very well!

pooltchr
09-27-2004, 05:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>Anyone care to start a pool for Dan Rather's departure date? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I think he's gone by the end of the year, especially if (when) Bush wins. His credibility is gone, and neither party is going to want to work with him. Anything negative he reports on the Republicans will look like sour grapes, and the Dem's are going to place a lot of blame for a failed campaign on the whole fiasco.

Poor CBS. First was a wardrobe malfunction, and now an Anchor Malfunction! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Fair_Play
09-27-2004, 06:32 AM
Bush guard service: 'favoritism given to join? I have fifteen years service as an active duty guardsman. In the Viet Nam era it was quite difficult to get into the guard if you were enlisted. To get in as an officer took absolutely no influence whatsover, officers were desperately needed. The point system used by the guard, and the "missing" six months? This is another canard. It was and still is perfectly normal for officers and enlisted to perform will great flexibility, of course, permission has to be gotten, and the duty has to be performed, either in advance or after the fact, so one could schedule one's life around the guard, and the guard around one's life. If there were even a hind of impropriety as regards 'AWOL', even a hint of proof, even an iota, do you think that after years and years of searching something, anything at all, would have been found? I have seen only one news report that explained the both the guard procedures and Bush's compliance with those procedures, only one... Flight physical: one does not need nor does one take a flight physical when one is not going to be flying.. Bush asked and received permission to be released from guard duty, in a perfectly legal manner, and that was granted, all in accordance with regulation and standard practice...

John Kerry's three months and 12 days in a combat zone? Why is there so much controversy, especially after all this time? Why do the overwhelming majority of Swifties NOT side with Kerry? They can't all be Repubicans, nor are they.. The key to Kerry I believe lies in all of the records that he has NOT released - yet we do not ever hear this being made an issue. While Bush has signed Standard Form 180 to release all of his records, Senator Kerry has not signed SF 180. The DNC somehow claims they have posted ALL of his records, they patently have not. and they get but the faintest whisper of a question about this...

It seems to me that the nation is pretty much evenly divided, as in the last election. It would have been fun to have had a president who invented the interned, and it might be interesting to have a president who voted for it before he voted against it..

When people say that it does not matter what happened thirty years ago, consider: A leopard does not change his spots, and as the twig is bent, so grows the tree...

All the best!

Qtec
09-27-2004, 08:01 AM
I was hoping you would be non-partisan, but your credibility has taken blow with this.
[ QUOTE ]
To get in as an officer took absolutely no influence whatsover, officers were desperately needed. <hr /></blockquote>

What? The Air Force couldnt find enough recruits who wanted to be a pilot??????
Come on. Thats ridiculous.
Fighter pilots are the 'cream of the cream'- in any country. For every free spot there are a 1000 applicants.


[ QUOTE ]
When people say that it does not matter what happened thirty years ago, consider: A leopard does not change his spots, and as the twig is bent, so grows the tree...

<hr /></blockquote>


Exactly. GW is very Gung-Ho, when someone else is doing the fighting.

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Fair_Play
09-27-2004, 10:32 AM
Well, we do seem to disagree somewhat!
[ QUOTE ]
To get in as an officer took absolutely no influence whatsover, officers were desperately needed. <hr /></blockquote>
Finding college age officer candidates during the Viet Nam era was indeed difficult. Even taking enlisted applicants who qualified, they had trouble filling all the slots. Saying that this was not true is easy, requires neither practical experience or research.
[ QUOTE ]
GW is very Gung-Ho, when someone else is doing the fighting. <hr /></blockquote>
To be an officer in a guard unit did not guarantee that one would not be deployed to Viet Nam.. Many guard units were deployed and served in that war. Here we have two individuals who served their country. That should be in and of itself enough. Oh well, we do seem to disagree somewhat. And yes, I am partisan, you are not?

All the best to you,

Fair Play

Afterthought - actual words of a 'brave man':
[ QUOTE ]
I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000<font color="blue">* </font color> which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....


WINTER SOLDIER INVESTIGATION

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans<font color="blue">* </font color> testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">*Swift Boat sailors and Officers, tarred with a very broad brush.</font color>

<font color="blue">**Found to be untrue: these "veterans" were made of of those looking for notoriety, the majority of them did not even serve in Viet Nam, those that did serve misrepresented what they did, and Kerry spread their lies.</font color>

Statement of John Kerry before the United States Senate, 1971

highsea
09-27-2004, 10:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> What? The Air Force couldnt find enough recruits who wanted to be a pilot??????
Come on. Thats ridiculous.
Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>Q, what fair_play said matches everything I've read about officers getting into the guard. IIRC, it was one of the former commanders of Bush's own outfit that said there was no waiting list for officers. Bush was accepted into the TANG two weeks before he graduated from Yale. By all reports, the TANG was happy to get a bright young kid from such a prestigous school.

Also, by 1972/73, there was a glut of pilots in the ANG. Lot's of guys were coming back from Vietnam, and they were required to serve in the National Guard on reserve status for two more years after they had finished their active duty. The ANG didn't have enough planes to go around, so anyone who volunteered to stop flying wasn't seen as dodging their duty. In fact, it was encouraged, so that more experienced pilots could stay active.

You're pretty quick to dog fair_play, when he actually has experience in the Guard, and you don't. Gee, I was hoping you would be more non-partisan. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

hondo
09-27-2004, 11:21 AM
Dan Rather, CBS news anchor
1. given documents he thought were true
2. failed to thoroughly investigate facts.
3. reported documents to the American people as true to make his case
4. when confronted with the facts, apologized and launched an investigation
5. number of Americans dead: 0
6. shoul be fired as CBS News Anchor

George Bush, President of the United States
1. given documents he thought were true
2. failed to thoroughly investigate the facts
3.reported documents to the American people as true to make his case
4. when confronted with the facts, continued to report untruth and stonewalled the investigation
5. number of Americans dead: 1100
6. should be given 4 more years as President of the United States

#### leonard
09-27-2004, 11:54 AM
I would bet your life that CBS got Snookered by the G.W Bush camp. Do you want something to lose its importance give false info then scream foul and Rather fell into the Trap.####

If you think a Repulican is honest I have some ENron Stock you can buy. Ken Lay is still not in Jail.

highsea
09-27-2004, 11:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Dan Rather, CBS news anchor
...
4. when confronted with the facts, apologized and launched an investigation
...
6. shoul be fired as CBS News Anchor
<hr /></blockquote>My post isn't a comparison of Bush and Rather. It's about illegal collusion between the DNC and CBS. It's about CBS running what's basically amounts to an attack ad against Bush 6 weeks before an election. It's about the DNC violating Campaign Finance laws by coordinating with a 527 group and CBS in a smear campaign on Bush, within 90 days of an election.

CBS had a story all lined up about Iraq for that segment, but they bumped it in favor of the memo story. Now they've postponed the Iraq story, because it "wouldn't be appropriate" to run it so close to the election. What do you think caused their sudden attack of conscience?

Rather didn't launch the investigation, his bosses did (to try and save their network). Rather is fuming that they chose a Republican ex-Attorney General to head it up.

I agree that Rather should be fired, along with his producer.

It took Rather a week to even admit the memos could've been faked (after being presented with overwhelming evidence). He went to his boss and said if the memos did turn out to be fake, he wanted to "break the story". Lol, "You can count on me to get to the bottom of this Chief, even if I have to interview myself!"

Bahahahahaha /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fair_Play
09-27-2004, 01:35 PM
Foul!!

(I protest on behalf of the Democans and the Republicrats!!)

Only Republicans stoop to 'dirty tricks', ask any plumber!

Sometimes it is the man, sometimes it is the party, sometimes they are syncophated...

In the military there is a very common credo about leadership, it is practical, and is about the only way to truly lead. The credo is "Lead by Example."

Now for my 'cheap shot' - what has Kerry done over the past 30 years (forgetting Veet Nam)? He has voted to gut with a large and sharp knife any defense appropriation, he has missed far more votes than he has given, he has driven a ten year old car until finally gigoloing his way into the bed of a scumbag spouting gold digger... now he has a chauffeur for the $35,000,000 jet that his wifey lets him ride in. Pretty fuel efficient for an avowed environmentalist who wants to tax gasoline an extra fifty cents a gallon...

<font color="red"> Partisan rant ends</font color>

Qtec
09-27-2004, 04:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
By all reports, the TANG was happy to get a bright young kid from such a prestigous school.

<hr /></blockquote>

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. LMAO

GW cant walk and chew gum at the same time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

He cant even speak English.

ie, WTF is a "catastrophic success"?

Q

Fair_Play
09-27-2004, 05:23 PM
Brilliance and wit beat conviction, morals and steadfastness every time?

So just what is so brilliant about windsuring your views, contantly tacking to the tune of a perceived public opinion, for the war, against the war (choose a war, Veet Nam, Iraq, likely ANY war.. the same Kerry process will occur)?

(just a hyper-partisan point of view) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yes, Kerry can talk out of both sides of his mouth at once, and there is evidence his tongue is both silver and cloven at once.

All the best to you and to yours,

Fair Play

Qtec
09-27-2004, 05:27 PM
I just know BS when I hear it! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

"All's fair in love and war". /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q

Fair_Play
09-27-2004, 05:43 PM
hahahaha /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good one, and true in your view,

That is a bonus point!

Qtec, keep the faith, and

All the best to you,

Fair Play

highsea
09-27-2004, 06:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote #### leonard:</font><hr> I would bet your life that CBS got Snookered by the G.W Bush camp.<hr /></blockquote>Hey, I'm just reading the writing on the wall.

I have trouble with the concept of Burkett being a secret Bush operative. He has a long history of foaming at the mouth whenever GW's name is mentioned. And then we have the Fortunate Son ads, and the Texans for Truth ads. Very clever of the Repubs to get the entire DNC propaganda machine involved, I must say.

But if it's true, then Bush deserves the win. If the Dems can be snookered so easily, I don't want them negotiating nuclear deals with North Korea anyway.

highsea
09-27-2004, 06:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> GW cant walk and chew gum at the same time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

He cant even speak English.<hr /></blockquote>You seem to be contradicting yourself Q. [ QUOTE ]
Fighter pilots are the 'cream of the cream'- in any country. For every free spot there are a 1000 applicants.<hr /></blockquote> GW trained, was licensed, and type certified in the F-102. That's not an easy thing to do. His trainers, commanders, and those who flew with him called him an outstanding young pilot.

He wasn't at the top of the pile, and he wasn't at the bottom. 22nd. in a class of 53, IIRC. So maybe he was no "Top Gun", but his MBA and the fact that he made it through the training and flew for 5 years means he's not a total idiot either.

But you're correct, he's a lousy speaker. These upcoming debates are going to make or break him. Kerry is a very strong debator, so I hope GW is ready for him.

Fair_Play
09-27-2004, 08:03 PM
You know, been in the military long time now, leading troops, doing lots of paperwork, dealing with personnel records, pay actions, the whole nine yards.

In my experience, smarts are not what they are cracked up to be - and in fact, a really high intelligence can be a really big detractor to getting the job done. I know guys we call 'rocks with lips' who have good moral fiber and intestinal fortitude - while it might take them longer to grasp concepts, they are full of determination and heart.

Intelligence is a hard thing to figure, for sure - in my experience the majority of people in the top five to ten percent simply are ineffective for various reasons, depending.

Give me an average guy I can trust any day over a super bright dude who I cannot trust... arrogance is a great mission detractor!

Best Regards,

Fair Play

Wally_in_Cincy
09-28-2004, 05:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
GW cant walk and chew gum at the same time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I'll ask again since you did not answer last time. Which Ivy League school did you graduate from?

hondo
09-28-2004, 05:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fair_Play:</font><hr> Brilliance and wit beat conviction, morals and steadfastness every


Morals? What morals?

Wally_in_Cincy
09-28-2004, 05:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>

...Kerry is a very strong debator, so I hope GW is ready for him. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not too worried about the debates. I think the more that people see Kerry the less they will like him. He's just not a likeable guy.

I don't know if you heard any Kerry audio clips yesterday, but he has changed his inflection noticeably to sound more down-home. Gone is the pompous, arrogant speech, replaced by a Dubya-esque speech pattern. I doubt he can keep it up for long though. He's too in love with his own self to change anything /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif