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View Full Version : Mistake made at the US Open



RedHell
09-27-2004, 07:29 AM
OK, Am I the only one who caught that one or am I wrong on the interpretation of the rules ?

At the Open, in a match between Rodney Morris and Earl Strickland, Earl miscued on the break and hit the break from behind on the 2 ball. The call that was made was that Morris had to re-break.

The way I understand the rule, it should have been a foul and ball in hand, because Earl failed to hit the 1-ball first !!!

Is this correct ?

Qtec
09-27-2004, 08:31 AM
Thats what the rules say.

Qtec

9 Ball Girl
09-27-2004, 08:36 AM
The way I've always played is where if the person miscues on the 9 ball break, then it's up to the opponent to break or have the first shooter break again. In this case, Rodney decided to break.

If a person doesn't miscue on the break but doesn't hit the 1 or fails to have at least 4 balls hit the rails, then it's ball in hand for the opponent. That's how we (me and people I've played with) have always done it.

RedHell
09-27-2004, 09:03 AM
This is a common mistake, there nothing about miscue or not in the rules...

Tom_In_Cincy
09-27-2004, 09:16 AM
The US Open is played under the Pro-Express rules. These rules are different than the BCA and Texas Express rules.

If you have any questions about specific rules for the Pro-Express version, you can contact Pat Flemming of AccuStats. He is the keeper of the rules.

You can't go by the World Standard rules when you are playing at the US Open or Derby City Classic. A lot of the rules are very similar, but there are differences.

Barbara
09-27-2004, 09:51 AM
Eric,

Even though Scott Smith is a BCA referee, they weren't going by BCA rules at the Open, so I would have no clue what the call would be.

On a side note, during Earl's match with Trenton Marty, Earl missed a kick and caught the cueball which still had some speed on it and was about to run into the 9-ball. Earl was standing such that he blocked Marty's view of the table and the move went unnoticed. I asked Scott Smith about this situation without mentioning any names and what would he have done about it and the first words out of his mouth were, "It depends on who's playing." Honest to God!!

Barbara
t = edited...

wolfdancer
09-27-2004, 10:33 AM
While there may be nothing on in the rule book about miscues, among the over 2000 ways you can foul when playing by NYC bar rules..."failure to contact the lowest numbered ball, uh, first..."

Rich R.
09-27-2004, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Even though Scott Smith is a BCA referee, they weren't going by BCA rules at the Open, so I would have no clue what the call would be. <hr /></blockquote>
IIRC, Scott stated, in a number of his introductory speeches, that they were using "Pro Express Rules", or something like that.

I have no idea where, or if, these rules can be found in print. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Does anyone know???????

RedHell
09-27-2004, 11:03 AM
I didn't know they were playing Pro-Express rules. But for one thing, I'm pretty sure that not touching the 1-ball first would be a foul. But the way it happend, is Earl call Scott over to make a ruling, but only said that he miscued and the rack wasn't opened.

There was not mention of not hitting the 1-ball. I think because of this, Scott called it as an illegal break, and gave Rodney the break.

I had a feeling at the time that if Scott had known Earl didn't touch the 1-ball first, Rodney would have had to play it as a foul. Not sure tho !?!

ChrisW
09-27-2004, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> I asked Scott Smith about this situation without mentioning any names and what would he have done about it and the first words out of his mouth were, "I depends on who's playing." Honest to God!!<hr /></blockquote>

What kind of crap is that?
Who was playing should have squat to do with a call. PERIOD!

Chris

Tom_In_Cincy
09-27-2004, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
Does anyone know??????? <hr /></blockquote>

This guy might (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=157831&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=1&amp;vc=1) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Big Dave
09-27-2004, 03:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> OK, Am I the only one who caught that one or am I wrong on the interpretation of the rules ?
---snip---
<hr /></blockquote>

I also saw the incident you refer to, and remember having a laugh at it too.

I believe the rules for Texas Express can be found here: http://www.texasexpress.com/ and although there are many differences I believe the ruling is the same as BCA for the legal break.

------------Texas Express--------
3.4: Legal Break

A legal break occurs when a) the one (1) ball (object ball, or substituted lowest ball on the foot spot) is struck first by the cue ball and a minimum of four (4) numbered balls driven to the rail, or b) a numbered ball is legally pocketed.

3.5: Illegal Break

Failure to execute a legal break (refer to rule 3.4) constitutes an illegal break. The foul allows the incoming player to rack and break.
------------------------------------

Miscue or not, if the cue ball rolls over the headstring, and doesn't meet the requirements of rule 3.4, then it's a foul according to this.

However this sort of thing does happen more than you would like to believe. Tournament Directors have to be very decisive about these things and are only human after all.

The important thing to understand is that when a TD has made a decision, that's it. There's no debate from then on, and both players must abide by that decision, no matter what later scrutiny reveals.

tateuts
09-27-2004, 04:20 PM
You are right - we've been through this discussion before. The Texas Express rules call for re-rack and the loss of the break for that game with ball in hand behind the line.

Chris

Leviathan
09-27-2004, 04:31 PM
The USPPA-Pro Express rules of 9-Ball can be found at:

http://www.usppa.com/rules.htm ;

and quoting a rule from this site:

Player must hit the one ball on the break, and drive at least 5 balls to a rail. If this does not occur, you must re-rack and break again.

Not quoting: I don't think this rule makes any sense. The break is a big advantage in 9-Ball. It's crazy to reward a player who blows a break with a second chance to make the first offensive move, a second chance to pocket the 9 on the snap.

AS
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Leviathan
09-28-2004, 04:33 AM
'Lo, Dave. Your post refers only to the Texas Express rules, but I suspect that you're confusing the Pro Express rules with the Texas Express rules. The Pro Express rules are available at http://www.usppa.com/rules.htm .

AS

Chris Cass
09-28-2004, 05:41 AM
Hi Leviathan,

What struck me as missing in the US Open program was the lack of a page missing with the rules explaination in the book. Seems to me they're takingh way too much for granted for the general public attending the Open for the first time as guests.

Semms they'd have something to explain what the players are going by. I was thrilled to see that more players attended the event this yr and I truely believe they'll fill the field or come close next yr.

Regards,

C.C.~~doesn't assumme everyone attending the Open knows what the rules are. Heck, I played a guy that didn't know and I myself was thrown too. I didn't stay for the entire meeting either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Leviathan
09-28-2004, 06:02 AM
Hiya, Chris! Really enjoyed hearing about your adventures at the Open. Glad you had a good time.

Good point--they should make sure the players know what rules will be used.

Alan

Chris Cass
09-28-2004, 11:59 AM
Hi Duke,

I was thinking of the new spectators. This should be included in the program as well as for the players that didn't fully attend the meeting, like dumb old me who took off to sleep after the trip in. Jet lag.

Regards,

C.C.~~I benifited one game by not knowing but found out from someone from the stands. Can't remember who? lol The guy touched one of the balls and then asked if it was a foul. I didn't see it and asked him if he fouled as my view was blocked by his body. He told me yes and I took bih and won the game. Later having the same error and he asked once again. I told him I didn't know. Then he told me it happened before and I took bih. I then explained that I just asked if he fouled and didn't see anything.
It happened with Neils Fijen too, as he touched a ball and knocked it out of place and asked me if it was a foul. I told him, I don't know just go ahead and shoot. It pays to stay at the players meeting. Seems the players get to vote on what's what at the meeting sometimes. that's a good thing imho

Leviathan
09-28-2004, 10:38 PM
Ah, now I've got you, Chris--excellent idea.

(By the way, I put an Everest tip on my playing cue about a week ago, as you recommended, and I like it a lot. It has good hardness right out of the box and is holding its shape very well. It's a tough tip; sandpaper didn't shape it as easily as it shapes the Le Pros, Sumos, and Rockys I'm used to).

Alan

Eric.
09-29-2004, 09:27 AM
letting you lead us to the restaurant! Red Hell indeed. (kiddin ya /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif )

Actually, Eric, I thought the same thing about a possible foul/BIH for Morris. I thought that once the CB crosses the headstring, it's in play.


Eric

Barbara
09-29-2004, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> letting you lead us to the restaurant! Red Hell indeed. (kiddin ya /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif )

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah! "Pull over" doesn't mean "speed up and drive through that yellow light"!

Barbara~~~that was one wild ride! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RedHell
09-30-2004, 02:55 PM
Well Barbara, consider yourself lucky you weren't in Joy's shoes. We went thru 3000Km on that trip /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

As for Eric making sing and moving on the side of my car, I truely believe he wanted to tell me I made a mistake. Wendy in the back told me that some people had turned on a previous road.

PS, Did ya know Jacques Villeneuve is a Quebecer too ?

Barbara
09-30-2004, 03:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> 3000Km <font color="blue">&lt;---what's a Km?? Oops, I'm sorry, I forgot you Canucks were measure-challenged!!</font color>

As for Eric making sing and moving on the side of my car, I truely believe he wanted to tell me I made a mistake. <font color="blue">Actually, he just wanted to sing to you to slow down so the other 4 cars could follow. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif! And people think I drive fast, sheesh!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif</font color>


PS, Did ya know Jacques Villeneuve is a Quebecer too ? <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">Okay, who is this "Jacques" guy? Is he that "Frera" guy they wrote the song about?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

J/K

Barbara~~~will bring HER OWN GPS equipment next time...

Barbara
09-30-2004, 03:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> 3000Km <font color="blue">&lt;---what's a Km?? Oops, I'm sorry, I forgot you Canucks were measure-challenged!!</font color>

As for Eric making sing and moving on the side of my car, I truely believe he wanted to tell me I made a mistake. <font color="blue">Actually, he just wanted to sing to you to slow down so the other 4 cars could follow. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif! And people think I drive fast, sheesh!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif</font color>


PS, Did ya know Jacques Villeneuve is a Quebecer too ? <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">Okay, who is this "Jacques" guy? Is he that "Frera" guy they wrote the song about?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

J/K

Barbara~~~will bring HER OWN GPS equipment next time... Or better yet, get the directions beforehand, hand to SPetty and let SPetty be the navigator 'cause despite myself, SPetty got me to Q-Masters! <hr /></blockquote>

SPetty
09-30-2004, 05:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Barbara~~~will bring HER OWN GPS equipment next time... Or better yet, get the directions beforehand, hand to SPetty and let SPetty be the navigator 'cause despite myself, SPetty got me to Q-Masters!<hr /></blockquote>hahaha! Something like this?

SPetty: Turn here.
Barbara: That's the wrong way!
SPetty: No, it's not. The map says turn here.
Barbara: But it's the wrong way! I'm low on gas!
SPetty: Trust me. I'm the navigator. The map says turn here.
Barbara. But it's the wrong way! We're not going the right way!
SPetty: Yes we are. We're going according to the map.
Barbara: This can't be right!
SPetty: Fine, if you don't trust me, exit and turn around. But we're going the right way.
Barbara: (Big sigh... Floors it after we passed the cop)

Once we got there, Barbara finally believed me. (I can follow a map!) /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Barbara
09-30-2004, 05:40 PM
And the friggin map was upside down in the program and you saw that and it was cloudy out and I couldn't tell which way was east or west 'cause the I64 entrance didn't say in each way, anyway. I need my bearings with the sun. And because of the map in the program, I thought Q-Masters would've been east of where we where. Ugh!

I really did pass a cop? I was flooring it 'cause you like being in fast cars and I figure if I'm gonna be lost, we might as well get there fast!!

Barbara~~~zoom zoom /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif And will NEVER question SPetty's navigational abilities again!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
09-30-2004, 06:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, who is this "Jacques" guy? Is he that "Frera" guy they wrote the song about??
<hr /></blockquote>

Barbara,

I'm not aware of a song but he drove Formula I Race cars. Hey they get millions to drive fast!! ha ha

Rod

Barbara
09-30-2004, 06:32 PM
Heck Rod!!! I'm in the wrong profession!!! I loved Jackie Stewart's driving style so much, I should've gone to Bob Bondourant's school of driving!!

Barbara~~~should've been a driver....

RedHell
09-30-2004, 10:04 PM
Well if you had been a driver you would have probably won all your races cuz you sure can't follow a car !!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

FTR, Villeneuve is a former Formula 1 world champion, a few years before Ferrari's dominance with Schumacher !!!

Chris Cass
09-30-2004, 10:12 PM
Oh Man are you in for it now brother. HAHAHAHAHA

C.C.~~lmao

RedHell
09-30-2004, 10:24 PM
LOL, I know, but I won't be around a lot in the near future so it should come slowly enough for me to be able to handle.

Hey, what can I say, she was supposed to be a fast driver and she keeps complaining about mine. Maybe next year we can organise a go cart race during the Open... lmao

Chris Cass
09-30-2004, 10:31 PM
Hey RedHell,

I don't trust Barbara when it comes to engines. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif She knows too much about hp and how to get it. lol

Where are you going? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~tell Joy I said hi and it's in the mail. lol you'll get a kick out of this one. lollollol

RedHell
09-30-2004, 10:39 PM
Not going anywhere, just back on the road for work and sometimes internet access won't be an option...

I'll to come around at least every other day.

I told Joy you were sending something, she wonders what it can be !!!

Chris Cass
09-30-2004, 10:45 PM
Snitch.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

RedHell
09-30-2004, 10:50 PM
Was it a secret ? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Chris Cass
10-01-2004, 05:09 AM
Naa,

Just a surprise. It really isn't much but I thought she'd get a kick out of it. It was something I felt bad about and wanted in some small way to make up for such a great compliment. Having you there for every match made me feel great and knowing you were so easily impressed was even a more satisfying experience for me. I was asked once by someone else for the same request and I was flabbergasted to say the least. I later laughed to myself and to be honest, I did feel like someone for a minute. It amazes me that someone that is worthy of such an honor could be so bothered by such a small gift from the heart.

Thanks buddy and see you next yr hopefully,

C.C.~~hope the Reese is working out for ya. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara
10-01-2004, 06:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> Well if you had been a driver you would have probably won all your races cuz you sure can't follow a car !!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Ooooooooooo, you b!tch!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Tell ya what, next year, on our ways home, we'll stop off at Dover Delaware. They have a lil' ole race track there and we can see who's following whom...

Barbara

Barbara
10-01-2004, 06:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr>
Hey, what can I say, she was supposed to be a fast driver and she keeps complaining about mine. Maybe next year we can organise a go cart race during the Open... lmao <hr /></blockquote>

Only I wasn't driving. Eric was graciously chauffering me and SPetty.

And besides, trying to keep up with you would have resulted in a couple of speeding tickets, to say the least. And unlike you Canadiens who claim diplomatic immunity, we Americans actually have to pay for our tickets. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Next time, Red, next time.

Barbara