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bob_the_borg
09-27-2004, 01:15 PM
I shoot from a wheelchair... and some times I stand to reach a shot. I was told I was violating a rule.

I did some research about this rule to get an explanation. Here's what I found. (See if you agree)

First I will paste the exact rule in here to make the explanation clear:

<font color="red">
8. One Foot on the Floor - While shooting, at least one foot must be on the floor at all times if a bridge is available. There is no foul - simply stop the shooter and hand him the bridge. League Management cannot guarantee the presence of bridges and some Host Locations may not have them.
Exception: Players shooting from a wheelchair must remain seated in their wheelchair while shooting. </font color>

The rule addresses the requirements to have at least one foot on the floor at all times. The EXCEPTION to the rule can only be used by some who is shooting from a wheelchair. If I stand up at the table then the "One Foot on the Floor" rule applies to me also. It does not state that once you start playing a match from a wheelchair you must remain in the wheelchair the entire match. It only requires that you remain seated "while shooting".

I can see the reasoning for the rule. I mean... if someone stood up on top of a wheelchair they would gain an unfair advantage in reaching shots. This is not the case, when I shoot from my chair, I honor this exception. When I stand to make a shot, I honor the "One Foot on the Floor" rule.

Am I on the right track?

cuechick
09-27-2004, 02:22 PM
I am pretty sure you are right, that what they mean, is while you are shooting a shot seated in a wheel chair, you must remain seated...that particular shot, not that you are not allowed to stand if your able and choose too, for other shots. THough I think if you stopped and reevaluated the shot and realized you could stand to shoot, why not? I have often picked up a bridge only to realize I could make it...I don't know, I think the wording is bad and unclear and you may want to email them and ask about it.

Wally_in_Cincy
09-28-2004, 06:14 AM
Maybe you could email them and ask them to clarify the rule.

SpiderMan
09-28-2004, 07:38 AM
Bob,

I agree with your interpretation - when standing, you must keep one foot on the floor. If using the chair, you must be seated in it.

They didn't word that rule in the most clear fashion, though. Someone could also mis-interpret it to mean that a person who plays from a wheelchair isn't allowed to stand for some shots. A re-wording could make the intent more clear.

SpiderMan

Troy
09-28-2004, 07:56 AM
IMO the intent of the rule is perfectly clear.
If you use a wheelchair you must stay in the chair.
There's no confusion.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bob_the_borg:</font><hr> I shoot from a wheelchair... and some times I stand to reach a shot. I was told I was violating a rule.

I did some research about this rule to get an explanation. Here's what I found. (See if you agree)

First I will paste the exact rule in here to make the explanation clear:

<font color="red">
8. One Foot on the Floor - While shooting, at least one foot must be on the floor at all times if a bridge is available. There is no foul - simply stop the shooter and hand him the bridge. League Management cannot guarantee the presence of bridges and some Host Locations may not have them.
Exception: Players shooting from a wheelchair must remain seated in their wheelchair while shooting. </font color>

The rule addresses the requirements to have at least one foot on the floor at all times. The EXCEPTION to the rule can only be used by some who is shooting from a wheelchair. If I stand up at the table then the "One Foot on the Floor" rule applies to me also. It does not state that once you start playing a match from a wheelchair you must remain in the wheelchair the entire match. It only requires that you remain seated "while shooting".

I can see the reasoning for the rule. I mean... if someone stood up on top of a wheelchair they would gain an unfair advantage in reaching shots. This is not the case, when I shoot from my chair, I honor this exception. When I stand to make a shot, I honor the "One Foot on the Floor" rule.

Am I on the right track?
<hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn
09-28-2004, 08:20 AM
If you can stand and shoot the shot, then you are not handicapped and should not be playing in a wheelchair tournament. I am not handicapped, would you think it would be fair for me to enter a wheelchair tournament and roll around sitting in a chair then stand at the table and shoot? I think the rule and it's intent is very clear.

Popcorn
09-28-2004, 08:22 AM
Quote
"I think if you stopped and reevaluated the shot and realized you could stand to shoot, why not?"

Uh, because it is a wheelchair tournament.

Ross
09-28-2004, 08:24 AM
Popcorn, he didn't say anything about playing in a wheelchair tournament. I think he is referring to a regular APA match.

ChrisW
09-28-2004, 09:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> IMO the intent of the rule is perfectly clear.
If you use a wheelchair you must stay in the chair.
There's no confusion.

Troy
<hr /></blockquote>

Well that is just plain Crap!
So if your opponent is in a wheelchair and you are not, You will tell him he can not stand up to shoot. Think about it. How stupid is that? Why would a rule prevent someone in a wheelchair from having the same advantage as the non-wheelchair person?
Maybe the rule should say if one of the players is in a wheelchair then both of the players MUST be seated when shooting. Its only fair.

Remember this is not a wheelchair event, this is just regular APA league!
Chris

Popcorn
09-28-2004, 09:19 AM
If that is the case, it would not matter if he stands or sits, it is up to him, as long as all is equal. If as a wheelchair player he get extra consideration though for being in a wheelchair, he has to stay in it. I play real good sitting in a wheelchair, whold I be allowed to play in a wheelchair tournament if I sat in a chair even though I don't need it.

Wally_in_Cincy
09-28-2004, 10:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> .... If as a wheelchair player he get extra consideration though for being in a wheelchair, he has to stay in it. ..... <hr /></blockquote>

He gets no extra consideration. His APA rating is figured exactly the same as everybody else.

I play with a one-armed guy. If he got a prosthetic arm should there be a rule saying that he could not use it?

I have played people on crutches. Should they not be allowed to set the crutches aside before shooting?

I don't get the APA rule. On the surface it does not make sense.

SpiderMan
09-28-2004, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Quote
"I think if you stopped and reevaluated the shot and realized you could stand to shoot, why not?"

Uh, because it is a wheelchair tournament. <hr /></blockquote>

Uh, no, it isn't. Why should Bob not be allowed to stand, for those shots where he can? None of the other players are forced to sit.

SpiderMan

Popcorn
09-28-2004, 11:46 AM
I had just assumed it was a wheelchair tournament. If it is just league he should be able to do what he wants.

Ross
09-28-2004, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> .... If as a wheelchair player he get extra consideration though for being in a wheelchair, he has to stay in it. ..... <hr /></blockquote>

He gets no extra consideration. His APA rating is figured exactly the same as everybody else.

I play with a one-armed guy. If he got a prosthetic arm should there be a rule saying that he could not use it?

I have played people on crutches. Should they not be allowed to set the crutches aside before shooting?

I don't get the APA rule. On the surface it does not make sense. <hr /></blockquote>

I think the rule means that if a player is shooting a particular shot from a wheelchair that player must remain seated in the wheelchair for that shot. In other words, no player can partially stand while using a wheelchair to support him/her. Unfortunately it is easy to read it to mean that once you shoot from a wheelchair you have to stay in it for the rest of your match.

catscradle
09-28-2004, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Quote
"I think if you stopped and reevaluated the shot and realized you could stand to shoot, why not?"

Uh, because it is a wheelchair tournament. <hr /></blockquote>

He never said it was a wheelchair tournament only that he was using a wheelchair. If it is a wheelchair tournament obviously he shouldn't stand, but my impression was that it was an APA league match and at least some off the other players were NOT in wheelchairs. In that case I think his interpretation of the rule is correct.
BTW, many people who have to use a wheelchair can stand for a short period of time, but couldn't play a match standing and walking.

doncartmill
09-28-2004, 02:14 PM
I just saw this on another forum,where APA got back to the guy in wheelchair

GOOD NEWS!!!

I got a phone call from the APA main office earlier today. I talked to some lady named April (she sounded hot) anyway, she said after she hung up with me yesterday she talked to her supervisor again and they went to talk to some head honcho of the APA. They agreed that mine was a special case and there was no problem if I eleceted to shoot some shots from my chair or stand and shoot others. She further explained that the exception was there to accomodate people confined to wheelchairs and that they had not anticipated anyone who could do both.

Look for a change in the rule on the next issue.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

-Sam Thomas-
I (doncartmill)added my thoughts
NO ..They blew it. It is not obviously there to accommodate the player in a wheel chair, or they would not have said "MUST" in the last line. I am ,however , glad to see they recognize their error and I hope will correct the wording in the next issue. In fact they should not wait until next issue ...but send out e mail or printed corrections to the "Exception to the rule" or include it in their monthly ,bi monthly or whatever newsletter. I am sure there is some communication that transpires between APA and members or league organizers???

bob_the_borg
09-28-2004, 02:15 PM
It was not a wheelchair event. Just a normal APA match.

Anyway, here's the outcome.

I got a phone call from the APA main office earlier today. I talked to some lady named April, she said after she hung up with me yesterday she talked to her supervisor again and they went to talk to some head honcho of the APA. They agreed that mine was a special case and there was no problem if I eleceted to shoot some shots from my chair or stand and shoot others. She further explained that the exception was there to accomodate people confined to wheelchairs and that they had not anticipated anyone who could do both.

Look for a change in the rule on the next issue.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

-Sam Thomas-

bob_the_borg
09-28-2004, 02:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote doncartmill:</font><hr> I just saw this on another forum,where APA got back to the guy in wheelchair

<hr /></blockquote>

LOL...yeah that was me too. Sorry for post whoring like that I just wanted to get as much feedback as possible.

Thanks again...

Sam

doncartmill
09-28-2004, 02:27 PM
I disagree this is stated as an "exception" (though NOT clearly at all) The last line of Rule #8 For clarity should be restated "A player having the option of playing a shot from his wheel chair and electing to do so, must remain seated while executing the shot" The intent was probably to prevent someone while shooting from a wheel chair...standing on the wheelchair allowing him to reach a shot that could not be reached by someone playing with one foot on the floor.

Ross
09-28-2004, 03:41 PM
Excellent rewording, doncartmill(?). Maybe Sam can send your suggestion to the APA - they may need the help. Writing unambiguous rules is a lot harder than it appears at first glance.