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05-15-2002, 07:16 PM
Player "A" kicks a the 1ball. He misses it. As the cue ball is comming down the table heading towards a cluster of balls, player "A" picks up the cue ball while still in motion, before hitting the cluster. What happens???

Harold Acosta
05-15-2002, 07:20 PM
In Puerto Rico that would be grounds for a fist fight....

Rod
05-15-2002, 07:32 PM
I'm not positive Joe, but he is already on a foul. I think the fact he picked up the c/b in motion is unsportsman like conduct. He could have done that to prevent breaking out the cluster. As the TD it is your decision. It could or maby should be loss of game.

05-15-2002, 08:15 PM
I don't have my BCA rules guide with me, but I know that this is an additional foul. I THINK, but I'm not sure, that the offending player is now 'on two'. If no one comes up with this by the time I get back, I'll post it for you.
Lorri

rackmup
05-15-2002, 08:53 PM
Per the BCA, in regard to "how many fouls":

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>5.7 FOULS
When a player commits a foul, he must relinquish his run at the table and no balls pocketed on the foul shot are re-spotted (exception: if a pocketed ball is the 9-ball, it is re-spotted). The incoming player is awarded ball in hand; prior to his first shot he may place the cue ball anywhere on the table. If a player commits several fouls on one shot, they are counted as only one foul. <hr></blockquote>

And missing an object ball:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>3.18 FAILURE TO CONTACT OBJECT BALL
It is a foul if on a stroke the cue ball fails to make contact with any legal object ball first. Playing away from a touching ball does not constitute having hit that ball. <hr></blockquote>

And touching a moving ball:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>3.21 FOULS BY TOUCHING BALLS
It is a foul to strike, touch or in any way make contact with the cue ball in play or any object balls in play with anything (the body, clothing, chalk, me- mechanical bridge, cue shaft, etc.) except the cue tip (while attached to the cue shaft), which may contact the cue ball in the execution of a legal shot. Whenever a referee is presiding over a match, any object ball moved during a standard foul must be returned as closely as possible to its original position as judged by the referee, and the incoming player does not have the option of restoration. (Also see Rule 1.16.) <hr></blockquote>

Hope this answers your questions,

Ken

05-15-2002, 10:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Joe T:</font><hr> Player "A" kicks a the 1ball. He misses it. As the cue ball is comming down the table heading towards a cluster of balls, player "A" picks up the cue ball while still in motion, before hitting the cluster. What happens??? <hr></blockquote>

ok, heres how it goes. assuming no ref, the incoming player gets ball in hand and that's it.

you can't get more than one foul per shot. beyond that, a lot depends on the players judgement about what was about to happen. if he intentionally stopped the ball from breaking the cluster and if he admits that was his intent then he get's an unsportsmanlike, loses the game and is put on warning for the match. but...without a ref there watching, what are the odds the players will agree on the chance it was going to break the cluster and that that was his intent?

even though they are not supposed to, players in matches, even with a ref standing there, grab cue balls that are still rolling all the time. yes it's a technical foul but no, nobody cares since it does not matter. you know how an n.b.a. ref can shut down the game by "over officiating"? same thing.

simply put, the guy who grabbed the ball will argue that it was going to stop short or miss the cluster anyway and you can't really prove otherwise.

dan

Rod
05-16-2002, 01:40 AM
Lorri, its only one big foul. The TD has the right, at his discretion to impose a loss of game. The TD is God. Having said that the TD, who may know the person that committed that foul, can decide if it was intentional. If it was, and Joe, who is trying to tighten up the rules can eliminate the person from the tournament. Pretty stiff but if they are a known trouble maker, it is in his power. The TD has the final say in the matter, period. Read the rules on referee's and the TD. His ruling in full effect will fall under the header of unlike sportsmanship. It's his decision on how much force he want's to use.

PoolFan
05-16-2002, 11:03 AM
Everyone that mentions that multiple fouls committed on one shot is considered one foul is absolutely correct!! In this situation, Player "A" is only penalized for one foul.

As to unsportsmanlike conduct, I would ref to 3.29

SPECIAL INTENTIONAL FOUL PENALTY
The cue ball in play shall not be intentionally struck with anything other than a cue's attached tip (such as the ferrule, shaft, etc.). While such contact is automatically a foul under the provisions of Rule 3.19, if the referee deems the contact to be intentional, he shall warn the player once during a match that a second violation during that match will result in the loss of the match by forfeiture. If a second violation does occur, the match must be forfeited.

If the TD aka Ref determines that Player "A" intentionally picked up the cue ball to avoid it hitting the cluster, he/she can use 3.29 to warn Player "A".

Upside on this is, if the TD is incorrect, it's only a warning and if Player "A" conducts him or herself properly for the remaining of the match, "no harm, no foul".

Downside is, now the TD has to either preside over the match or assign a third party to preside to avoid another he said, she said situation where Player "B" is being unsportsmanlike to try and have Player "A" forfeit.

Anyway, I believe that 3.29 can used in this situation with caution.

BTW, for those of you who disagree with replacing TD for ref in 3.29, please make sure that you refer to 2.1

TOURNAMENT OFFICIALS/REFEREES
Where these rules refer to a "referee", it should be noted that the referees' prerogatives and discretion also accrue to other tournament officials as appropriate

Interesting situation, I've never seen it happen.

Ken
05-16-2002, 02:00 PM
IF A PLAYER MOVES OR POCKETS ANY BALLS ILLEGALLY BY ANY MEANS SUCH AS SLAPPING THE TABLE; THROWING BALLS OR ANY EQUIPMENT; PUSHING ON THE CLOTH; STRIKING THE BALLS WITH THE CUE OR OTHER OBJECT ILLEGALLY; IMPEDING THE PATH OF BALLS OR ANY ACTION DEEMED UNSUITABLE BY THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR; IT WILL BE A LOSS OF GAME AND/OR MATCH. A SEVERE AND/OR 2ND (SECOND) VIOLATION MAY CAUSE THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR TO IMPOSE A SUSPENSION AND/OR EXPULSION. THE DECISION OF THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR IS FINAL.

ANY PLAYER OBSERVED BY THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR WHOSE CONDUCT IS DEEMED UNSUITABLE WILL BE SUBJECT TO A SINGLE WARNING OR NO WARNING. THE PENALTY FOR UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT IS A LOSS OF GAME, MATCH, SUSPENSION AND/OR EXPULSION. THE DECISION OF THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR IS FINAL.

PoolFan
05-16-2002, 02:41 PM
And your point is?

Ken
05-16-2002, 04:53 PM
There seem to be rules that address the situation. BCA does not. Texas Express does. I was under the impression most tournaments used Texas Express. If not then they should since the matter is dealt with there.

All the BCA rules quoted are not on point. That's the point.

05-16-2002, 08:09 PM
I could just possibly remember this "freedom" in a monster-tight situation(i.e. do or die) if the cluster busting apart cinches my loss for sure. To tell the truth I aways kinda figured something ugly like an immediate loss was surely in place for such an atrocious and deliberate action, but hey..."only getting the one foul for being an a$$hole in a do or die situation bending a WRONGLY written rule sort of makes it semi-all right"...sid~~~looks forward to the error being called as an automatic loss by the BCA someday

rackmup
05-16-2002, 08:19 PM
I have to disagree Sir...if the cueball is still rolling, then it IS in play. In regards to his other questions, there is only one foul even though two seperate fouls were committed (missed his object ball AND the illegal touching of a "ball in play.")

These are direct from the BCA website.

Ken (the "other" one)

Ken
05-16-2002, 09:17 PM
Do you disagree that Texas Express has rules? Do you disagree that their rule mentions a situation involving "IMPEDING THE PATH OF BALLS"? The BCA rules clearly do not address flagrant cheating and if you use Texas Express rules the situation is covered. I don't know why everyone is trying to find a BCA rule since I don't think many pro nine ball tournaments use BCA rules. I'm not expressing an opinion, just cutting and pasting the rules. I will opine that BCA has no rule that adequately covers the situation.

I will certainly agree that the cueball is in play, whatever that means (can I hit it again?). So what? The only way you can impede a path is if the ball is rolling (in play?).

If you use BCA rules you can get away with it. If you use Texas Express you can't. Just insist on the rules that best suit your style of play.
KenCT

stickman
05-16-2002, 09:40 PM
I'm with you Harold. Hit him over the head with a cue stick, or better yet, a beer bottle. No sense risking messing up a good stick. One good turn deserves another. LOL /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif Who needs a rule? J/K

Honestly, I could see that happening at some of the places I've played.

05-16-2002, 10:50 PM
before we start hitting peopleover the head with beer bottles, let me ask...again!!!...what is the evidence of the guy's intent? did he think it was going to stop or miss the cluster???

it could be no big deal.

ddan

05-16-2002, 10:55 PM
partial snip or quote:
Do you disagree that Texas Express has rules? Do you disagree that their rule mentions a situation involving "IMPEDING THE PATH OF BALLS"? The BCA rules clearly do not address flagrant cheating and if you use Texas Express rules the situation is covered. I don't know why everyone is trying to find a BCA rule since I don't think many pro nine ball tournaments use BCA rules.

new:
Maybe this should be brought to the attention of someone in BCA. I'm sure they would agree the rule needs to be immediately changed. I don't know anyone in BCA or how to reach them.

rackmup
05-17-2002, 05:21 AM
Whoa pardner!

I'm not arguing here. Yes...I know the Texas Express rules. And yes, TE Rules cover the violation more directly but it isn't like the BCA doesn't address the same offense clearly enough to understand it.

Texas Express ruling:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>6.0-11 THE CUE BALL IN MOTION

THE CUE BALL MAY NOT BE TOUCHED OR PICKED UP UNTIL ALL BALLS HAVE COME TO REST AND/OR POCKETED; AND, IF THE CUE BALL IS PICKED UP OR TOUCHED WHILE IT IS IN MOTION, IT IS A CUE BALL IN HAND FOUL, REGARDLESS OF THE INTENT BY THE PLAYER OR PATH OF THE CUE BALL.
<hr></blockquote>

BCA Ruling:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>3.21 FOULS BY TOUCHING BALLS
It is a foul to strike, touch or in any way make contact with the cue ball in play or any object balls in play with anything (the body, clothing, chalk, me- mechanical bridge, cue shaft, etc.) except the cue tip (while attached to the cue shaft), which may contact the cue ball in the execution of a legal shot. Whenever a referee is presiding over a match, any object ball moved during a standard foul must be returned as closely as possible to its original position as judged by the referee, and the incoming player does not have the option of restoration. (Also see Rule 1.16.) <hr></blockquote>

What none of us know is:

<ul type="square"> What was the situation? Friendly game, league game, amateur tourney or pro tourney.
Was the cueball clearly going to touch this "cluster of balls?"
Was there a bet on the outcome of the game?
Were both players wearing flame resistant clothing?
Are they still friends or will they be fighting on the next episode of Jerry Springer, "When pool shots go bad."
[/list]

I emailed Joe T's question to John Lewis of the BCA. I'll post his response when it gets back to me. I'll also ask John at Texas Express if I see him. Should I run into the Pope, I'll pose the question to him as well.

Happy Friday everyone!

Ken

jjinfla
05-17-2002, 06:42 AM
Everybody agrees that it is cue ball in hand foul because he missed his ball. The only question is whether or not there can be a more serious penalty applied because he stopped the CB from breaking up the cluster. The question that has to be answered is whether this action, of stopping the CB, affected the outcome of the game. So the situation should be presented to the TD for his decision. And his decision is final. That's why he gets paid the big bucks. I once had a guy play a masse' shot against me and he hit the OB but in shooting the masse' he accidently hit another ball with his stick. According to TE that is a BIH foul. But when I asked for a ruling by the TD he just said it was accidental contact, since we play CB fouls only, and I was stuck with his bad, and wrong, decision. But life goes on. Jake

05-17-2002, 07:10 AM
There is a specific BCA rule that covers this situation- 3.41- Interference.If the non-shooting player distracts his opponent, or interferes with his play, he has fouled. If a player shoots out of turn, OR MOVES ANY BALL EXCEPT DURING HIS INNING, it is considered to be interference. In this situation, the cue ball had not stopped moving yet, so it was still player A's inning. Player B fouled, and ball-in-hand is awarded to player A. As for the one foul only- that applies only if multiple fouls are committed by the same player. Player A did foul originally by not contacting his 1ball, but player B then fouled by picking up the cue ball before it stopped moving. Patti Ireland, BCA Referee

Ken
05-17-2002, 07:57 AM
Patti, It was player A that shot and then picked up the ball so the non-shooting player was just watching.

Joe's question implied that player A picked up the cue ball in order to prevent it from breaking up the cluster. Otherwise the answer is trivial and only a BIH foul regardless of there having been two infractions.

Since Joe is the TD of a pro tour I would suggest that the question be examined in the context of a pro tournament where there is significant money on the line as opposed to a friendly or league game.

I consider the scenario to be a flagrant foul which is addressed in rule 7.0-4 of the Texas Express rules which I posted earlier. Anyone that considers the act to be an acceptable manner in which to play the game can consider it an ordinary foul. It appears that if you play by BCA rules then cheating is permitted. That's fine for friendly or league play but for money games I would go with Texas Express.
KenCT

Ken
05-17-2002, 09:11 AM
"What was the situation? Friendly game, league game, amateur tourney or pro tourney.
Was the cueball clearly going to touch this "cluster of balls?"
Was there a bet on the outcome of the game?"

Ken, I have to give you credit; you would make a good defense attorney. The job involves creating confusion and misinterpreting laws in order to get the murderer off. You could have been a valuable member of O. J.'s team.

It's true we don't know the circumstances of the game that Joe has mentioned. Joe said the ball was going to hit a cluster and you don't know whether it was "clearly going to touch this" cluster. I suppose an earthquake could have occurred before the cluster was struck. If you think that the cluster would not have been hit then the question becomes trivial. I doubt that Joe meant for the question to be trivial.

Joe has previously inquired into a code of conduct for a pro tourney but you don't know if this might be about a "friendly" game (as if that matters). If it's a pro tournament of course there's also a bet on the game (what difference does that make? He still murdered Nicole).

Your reliance on TE rule 6.0-11 is woefully misplaced. True, the rule states that it's a BIH foul regardless of the intent. Therefore, "It was barely moving; it would have gone down the ball return so I just saved some time", are not valid excuses. The rule does not say: "It is ONLY a BIH foul even if you are trying to cheat by preventing the ball from hitting the cluster".

If you are trying to cheat then rule 7.0-4 comes into play and the TD can award the game to player B.

Ken, you might want to get in touch with F. Lee Bailey. I understand he is looking for people with your talents.
KenCT

PoolFan
05-17-2002, 09:44 AM
After reading through some of you other posts, I realized that your original post actually quoted the Texas Express rules. Now, I understand, I originally thought you were just stating what you thought should happen.

I do like the Texas Express ruling that you cover. I believe that it is more directed to this type of situation and defines the penalty better.

Where did you get the actual Texas Express rules? Is it online or do you have a book? I'd like to get my hands on it.

PoolFan
05-17-2002, 10:06 AM
You are exactly right. The TD must first determine the intent of the action. Unfortuately, this determination must be done subjectively. This becomes the TD's perrogative. This whole matter starts there and can end there depending on the TD's decision.

Once the TD determines this, he/she has a number of objective penalties that he/she can assess, if need be.

For the players who intentionally stop the cue ball, I believe the rules should change and we cut one of their fingers off at the knucle. This should be done for each offense and eventually, no one will ever touch the cue ball - moving or not.

Troy
05-17-2002, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: PoolFan:</font><hr>
Where did you get the actual Texas Express rules? Is it online or do you have a book? I'd like to get my hands on it. <hr></blockquote>

http://www.texasexpress.com/main/rules.htm

Ken
05-17-2002, 10:14 AM
Sorry to mislead you. I realized after I made the post that I was being a jerk by not explaining the source of the quotes. It's unfair to serious posters but we get a lot of cryptic posts here and I guess I was just copying others' styles.

The rules are at:

http://www.texasexpress.com/

They seem to address a lot more situations than the BCA rules do. I am under the impression that Texas Express is used for a lot of tournaments but I don't know for sure without doing some research.
KenCT

rackmup
05-17-2002, 03:47 PM
"Your Honor, I object! The prosecution is badgering the witness!"

LMAO!

Ken

05-17-2002, 08:59 PM
Ken- Sorry- it was early am and I had just gotten up- I misread the post and thought it to be the opponent who picked up the CB. In that situation, intent is going to be a great part of the ruling. If the player picked up the CB to avoid the outcome, it could be considered intentional movement and would result in forfeiture of the game/and or match. This could also be considered unsportsmanlike conduct. The referee or TD has the responsibility of determining the consequence based on the individual situation. the same issue of intent would apply in the case of the opponent having picked up the CB- if done intentionally to affect the outcome of the shot it would be intentional movement and the result again, would be forfeit of game/match. (In the case of truly accidentally picking up the ball before it stops moving could possibly be considered a foul under interference.) Patti- who has learned never to read or respond to posts before drinking at least 2 large mugs of coffee!!!

Ken
05-17-2002, 10:45 PM
Patti, The problem seems to be that nobody has been able to find a BCA rule that would give the TD the discretion to award the game to player B. I suppose the website doesn't have all the rules but it seems that only a warning can be given for the intentional interference even if it effects the outcome. 3.29 calls for only a warning.
KenCT

05-17-2002, 11:46 PM
ok, i guess i should have given the citation the first time i answered this thing. for whatever reason, the bca site does not give those rules which are the 2.00 section "instructions for referees".

2.28 gives the ref (or t.d. or designate)the power to penalize unsportsmanlike in pretty much whatever manner seems appropriate. again, i expect a good ref would do something along these lines.

1. no intent to effect outcome...warning.

2. intent to effect...take the game and warn of match.

3. intent and effect and bad actor. throw the bum out.

sorry that bca does not give you all the rules for free. the book is like 7 or 8 bux.

dan

Rod
05-18-2002, 02:00 AM
Dan, thanks for sharing that bit of info. I said as much in my first post but did not elaborate as you did. There are two sets of rules and people need to be aware of that fact.

It does leave the decision up to the ref, but should there be a protest or call for a higher ruling, the TD has the final say in the matter. If I knew these guys could play, I would rule loss of game. If the guy was a known cheat, a$$ hole or trouble maker he would lose the match! Never pi$$ off the TD or ref for that matter.

05-18-2002, 05:20 AM
Seems to me that it would be simpler if those writing the rules would assess a loss WHENEVER somebody picks up a moving CB no matter the intent, and call it a concession of game. What you'd soon find is that the foul of picking up a rolling CB would would thoroughly be learned and people wouldn't do it. If there's a few innocent people who get dinged in the process...well they'll learn, just like that learned not to break down their play cues before the game is over. Simple(IMO) sid

05-18-2002, 07:20 AM
Ken- rule 1.16- playing without a referee, gives the TD authority to settle disputes,when there is no referee. Basically, any tournament in which there is no referee present, the TD has full authority to call shots, interpret rules, etc. 1.6, administrative discretion, gives the mangement of the tournament the right to set rules and procedures for the tournament. The BCA rules do pretty well cover every situation, but sometimes you have to use more than one. and as Dan has pointed out, intent is a big factor in many situations. 2.19, intentionally causing balls to move, is the rule I would use in this case if the INTENT was to affect the outcome, prevent the breakout of the cluster- and 2.19 does call for forfeit of the game/match. But, again, intent is key- if it is a situation of the ball slowing way down, appearing to stop, player simply picking up ball before it stopped by mistake,3.41 interference might me more appropriate, with a simple foul and explanation. And, as always, if there is a situation of unsportsmanlike conduct, it is always the referee or TD's discretion as to the severity, whether warning, forfeit of game, or elimination from tournament entirely. Once again I am responding early in the am, but I have had a cup of coffee, so I think I did read your post correctly this time! Patti

05-18-2002, 07:24 AM
quick clarification, Rod, while the Td does have final authority, this does not apply to a judgement call by a referee, unless the case can be made that the referee was in error on the rule itself, or the interpretation of the rule. Patti

05-18-2002, 07:26 AM
Ken, per last post- an additional rule, 2.4 Final Tournament Authority- gives the TD final authority in all matters EXCEPT a judgement call by a ref, unless the ref was in error on the rule itself or the interpretation of the rule. Patti

Alfie
05-18-2002, 07:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Ken:</font><hr> The problem seems to be that nobody has been able to find a BCA rule that would give the TD the discretion to award the game to player B. I suppose the website doesn't have all the rules but [...] <hr></blockquote>
Try the WPA website. Same rules plus sections 1 &amp; 2.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/

Ken
05-18-2002, 07:54 AM
Thanks Alfie, We could have settled this a lot earlier if the BCA had the other rules at its site. I noticed a problem with the rule regarding slow play. If you are "down over the ball at the 10 second mark" you can stay there forever. John Fernandez will get down over the ball and take 30 or 40 practice strokes. He will then get up and start over again. As long as he shoots within 10 seconds the second time there is no penalty even though he might take over 2 minutes. I guess you can't cover every situation.
KenCT

Rod
05-18-2002, 01:40 PM
Thanks Patti, It's been a while since I've read or used that section of the rules.

Alfie
05-18-2002, 07:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Ken:</font><hr> I noticed a problem with the rule regarding slow play. If you are "down over the ball at the 10 second mark" you can stay there forever. John Fernandez will get down over the ball and take 30 or 40 practice strokes. He will then get up and start over again. As long as he shoots within 10 seconds the second time there is no penalty even though he might take over 2 minutes. I guess you can't cover every situation. <hr></blockquote>
I suppose you could mandate the use of a shot clock everywhere, all the time. :-)

05-18-2002, 11:39 PM
I, unfortunately, have to be more aware of that section than most! I think it is too bad that the BCA website does not have the entire rules posted- the 1st section,Rules for tournament play, and the 2nd section, Instructions for Referees, clarify many of the questions that come up for players. it is in the book, and thank god, in the last few years, the small league booklets have printed all the rules (or at least most- there is still some abridgement). For years I have made my league players aware of all the rules, but there is still always some nitpicking and disagreement over interpretation. I guess that is why we still need refs!!!! As Dan has pointed out, intent is the key in interpretation, and also in application of penalties. Also, being aware of those 2 sections makes such a difference in the understanding of the game! There has been some mention of the texas express rules, and I have to admit I am not as familiar with them- perhaps should get of my **** and look up the website. As most of my work and playing under BCA rules, that is what I am most familiar with, though. And I find, if you have a working knowledge of ALL the rules, they pretty well cover all the situations that arise. IMO, of course! Patti

05-18-2002, 11:52 PM
got an e-mail from a web friend here a few days ago asking fgor help gettin at b.c.a. to inquire politely as to ref. training although he did indicate it was ok if i questioned his sanity for even being interested.

as i greatly admire the way you comport yourelf here i thought i would pose 2 questions to you.

how do ya get started if you want to be a ref and:

is there any (paying) market for refs?

hope you can help. many of us hick rules meisters wonder about that.

dan

05-19-2002, 07:34 AM
Dan- To get on the way to becoming a certified ref through the BCA, contact Betty Harris at the BCA. There is an initial written exam to get recognized local status, then through taking the training class at Las vegas, you can progress to a national certification level. At the the BCA website tere is an online application form for the written exam. As to WHY becomea ref? Strictly love of the sport. You will not make a living at it. There can be a market for refs at local, state level and regional tournaments, but it is infrequent, and doesn't pay that well. For me, I have always been fascinated by the intricacy of the game, and becoming a ref has given me a greater understanding of the complexity, the strategy,and the actual physics of the game. I have been able to help the players in my league improve their understanding of the rules, and improve their playing technique as well.( We have 3 divisions, 10 teams each, in-house, and 3 nights a week I am there as a player and ref. Each season we get many players new to the sport, so I can be quite busy!) There are, unfortunately, some people who want to do it as a form of power-trip- but the best refs are their simply because they care tremendously about the sport in all aspects. It is grueling, and you have to remember that whatever you do, someone thinks you are wrong. But I've learned so much, and met so many wonderful people, that I have no regrets about the time I have devoted to it! Patti

Barbara
05-19-2002, 03:10 PM
dan,

I became a ref last year and I'm happy to have done it. First of all, it really makes you think about the rules and helps you with strategies with the game you're playing. And if you're really articulate and cerebral like Patti I. and Bruce B. and Roger G., then you really can get into dissecting the rules and how some of the extrememly wierd situations can be settled.

The night before the singles started I was practicing by myself when I was approached by a first timer to practice. She and I got to talking and she admitted that she didn't read the rules and didn't know all of them, only what her Mom had showed her. So then I started with quizzing her about the Stalemate rule and what would happen if this or that situation happened while the table was open and she decided to go back and read the rules.

Gotta read the rules.

If anything, it shows you what you can get away with /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif!

Barbara~~~misses those 1,000+ word essays from Bruce...

05-19-2002, 04:01 PM
Barbara- I think "obsessive and quarrelsome" might better describe us than "articulate and cerebral"! Fill me in on Vegas this year- due to my aunt's death I was unable to go- really missed seeing everyone! (but my fischer table should be installed next week- now I'll never have to leave home!) Patti

Troy
05-19-2002, 07:55 PM
Thanks Dan. I thought about a PM to Barbara then forgot about it 'cuz she was in Vegas.

Also, I'm having second thoughts about the BCA ref idea.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: houstondan:</font><hr> got an e-mail from a web friend here a few days ago asking fgor help gettin at b.c.a. to inquire politely as to ref. training although he did indicate it was ok if i questioned his sanity for even being interested.

as i greatly admire the way you comport yourelf here i thought i would pose 2 questions to you.

how do ya get started if you want to be a ref and:

is there any (paying) market for refs?

hope you can help. many of us hick rules meisters wonder about that.

dan <hr></blockquote>

Rod
05-19-2002, 08:23 PM
Troy, I'm having 3rd or 4th thoughts, I might be at my limit

05-19-2002, 08:23 PM
Tony- are you the friend Dan referred to? What are the 2nd thoughts, and what were the 1st ones? If you are looking at it as a potential new profession, don't quit the day job. There are some people who do it full time, but there is not that much call for referees to expect it to be your first line of business, unless you are working on a regular basis with a tour promoter, or a tournament director who does nothing but. And if you live in an area that has a lot of tourneys running, can create a niche for yourself. But it can be very rewarding in many ways. And you can do it on different levels- to be of value locally, to improve your own understanding, or to get involved at the state, regional or national level. Hope my previous post did not discourage you- I sure did not mean it to. If you have any questions, or want to discuss it, feel free to contact me, Patti I