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hondo
10-06-2004, 10:57 AM
If Kerry loses this election it will be due to the
NRA's efforts to convince America that he will take
away their guns. I'm not sure the good ole boys
would believe him but he has to address the issue.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-06-2004, 11:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> If Kerry loses this election it will be due to the
NRA's efforts to convince America that he will take
away their guns. I'm not sure the good ole boys
would believe him but he has to address the issue. <hr /></blockquote>

He has addressed the issue but we see through his deceit /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wally &lt;~~ millenium member

Singlemalt
10-06-2004, 11:53 AM
Kerry's voting record speaks for itself and is well in sync with many other anti-gun democrats.

Some of the simple facts:
1. Kerry co-sponsors a bill that would ban all semi-automatic shotguns and detachable-magazine semi-automatic rifles, a gigantic step toward bringing Australian-style gun control to the U.S.

2. Kerry says, "I think you ought to tax all ammunition, personally, I think you ought to tax guns."

3. Kerry has voted nine times in favor of banning semi-auto firearms.

4. Kerry has voted for a Ted Kennedy amendment to ban most center-fire rifle ammunition, including the most common rounds used by hunters and target shooters.

5. Kerry has voted to close off hundreds of thousands of acres of the California Mojave Desert to hunting.

6. Kerry has voted to hold the firearms industry responsible for the violent acts of criminals.

7. Kerry was one of only 18 Senators to oppose the Firearms Owners` Protection Act, which ended alarming abuses being committed under the 1968 Gun Control Act.7

There is plenty more....

The democratic party has a history of voting against the 2nd amendment and Kerry has the histroy to prove that.

"We will never disarm any American who seeks to protect his or her family from fear and harm."

-- President Ronald Reagan

Singlemalt
10-06-2004, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> If Kerry loses this election it will be due to the
NRA's efforts to convince America that he will take
away their guns. I'm not sure the good ole boys
would believe him but he has to address the issue. <hr /></blockquote>

He has addressed the issue but we see through his deceit /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wally &lt;~~ millenium member <hr /></blockquote>

LOL - Addressed it with bogus picture setups. Out shooting with no hearing or eye protection?

SpiderMan
10-06-2004, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> If Kerry loses this election it will be due to the
NRA's efforts to convince America that he will take
away their guns. I'm not sure the good ole boys
would believe him but he has to address the issue. <hr /></blockquote>

Kerry has addressed the issue many times. His track record is as anti-gun as Ted Kennedy (whose automobile has killed more people than all of my guns combined). I hope there are no "good ole boys" dumb enough to let him convince them otherwise.

SpiderMan

Wally_in_Cincy
10-06-2004, 12:57 PM
and he fails to realize most gun owners don't own their weapons for the sole purpose of shooting clay pigeons.

highsea
10-06-2004, 01:23 PM
I don't see Kerry's anti-gun stance really having that much effect on the election. Conservatives have too many other reasons we can't stand the guy. He could be for repealing every gun law in the land, and I still wouldn't vote for him.

Kerry uses his so-called claim as a sportsman and a hunter to try to convince people that he doesn't want to ban guns. Lol. His record shows otherwise.
[ QUOTE ]
A September 23, 2004 article in the Charleston (WV) Daily Mail revealed that the 12 ga. Remington Model 11-87 which was presented to John Kerry at a rally earlier this month has never left the state of West Virginia where the photo op took place.

Presidential candidate John Kerry never took home a semi-automatic shotgun that stirred controversy when he accepted it at a Boone County rally, reported the Charleston, WV newspaper, causing critics to claim the Democrat even flip-flops on photo ops.

Pictures of Kerry accepting the gun at a Labor Day rally made headlines when it was revealed the Remington 11-87 was one he had voted to ban in the Senate.<hr /></blockquote>
http://www.ohioccw.org/article2401.html

Now, all Kerry had to do was deliver the gun to a FFL, fill out a short form, and submit to a background check. But of course, the gun had already served it's purpose, so now it sits in a closet in West Virginia gathering dust. What a phony.

Ross
10-06-2004, 04:21 PM
The argument that Kerry wants to "ban guns" is, IMO, just a more extreme version of the scare-mongering suggestion by the Repubs that he wanted to ban Bibles.

There is no doubt that Kerry is liberal and has been a gun control advocate. He would like to ban assault weapons, require background checks at gun shows, and so on. So would a large portion of the US population. Some agree, some don't.

But the argumentative trick that the NRA promotes is the "false dilemma" fallacy. This is the implication that there are only two options when actually there are many. Examples: You are either for me or against me. America: Love it or leave it.

The NRA false dilemma is that you either a) are against all gun control legislation, or b) you are against citizens having the right to own guns. They support this false dichotomy with the "slippery slope" fallacy - if you ban one type of gun then you inevitably will end up banning them all. In reality, there are many choices falling between a and b and it is possible to finally get sensible gun control legislation and then stop.

The gun rights media is also trying to make hay with the argument that Kerry was holding up a shotgun given to him by a union member at a Labor Day rally that "he would have had banned." This makes him a lying hypocrite in their view.

This is based on his co-sponsorship of Senate bill S 1431 ("The Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003"). And it is true that a technical reading of this bill could be construed to ban the the Remington 11-87 shotgun he held up. I read the law and agree it is ambiguous and could be interpreted in several ways. The argument stems around the definition of "pistol grip" and some other technicalities to detailed to get into here. If the law had been passed there is no doubt in my mind that it would have run into troubles because of the vagueness of its wording about what guns are included and which aren't.

But I don't think it is valid to jump from that fact to the conclusion that Kerry intended to ban hunting shotguns like he held up. It makes no sense to come to that conclusion. The same people who are making this accusation also accuse him also of pandering to the people for votes. So, by their logic, in '03 (a year before the Presidential election) Kerry was trying to ban hunting shotguns, an act which would have doomed any election hopes he every had?! To pass a law which would be repealed in a day if it were so interpreted? Again, that makes no sense.

In is more logical to assume he was trying to ban "assault weapons" which was a popular stance across the country. (I know that many argue there is no such thing, but that doesn't mean that other people agree.) And I can see why people would criticize him for not insisting on more precise legislation, but not to jump to "he's a lying hypocrite that wants to ban guns." But that is exactly what the Drudge's etc, have done. And that is what the NRA does to anyone who opposes them on any legislation.

And the fact that he didn't do the paperwork necessary to transport the shotgun he received over state lines does not move one step toward proving that he wants to ban guns either. He was accepting a shotgun used for hunting from a union member on Labor Day. Sure he was going for the photo op! Why the hell not? But politicians kiss babies, talk to groups they have no interest in, and do the rest of that stuff every day. If they don't we don't vote for them and they are gone. If Bush can pose in a flight suit when he doesn't fly anymore then Kerry can certainly hold up a shotgun given to him. It is called political image making - no more, no less...

Ross ~ knowing that everytime guns are brought up the thread goes on forever. Oh well...

highsea
10-06-2004, 05:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> The argument that Kerry wants to "ban guns" is, IMO, just a more extreme version of the scare-mongering suggestion by the Repubs that he wanted to ban Bibles.<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> More extreme?? Ross, can you show us any legislation that the GOP has sponsored that indicates any kind of "ban" on the Bible? Because Kerry has a 20 year history of supporting every single piece of legislation restricting guns in America. Every time, Ross, every single time, without fail.</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>There is no doubt that Kerry is liberal and has been a gun control advocate.<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> I can't argue that. Kerry has received a 100-percent rating from the Brady Campaign (Handgun Control, Inc.), The American Bar Association's Special Committee on Gun Violence and the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence. He has also won a 100-percent approval rating from the Humane Society of The United States and Fund for Animals. These groups are rabidly anti-gun or anti-hunting.

Kerry has also received an F rating from the NRA and a 0% rating from the Gun Owners of America.

Kerry voted to extend and expand President Clinton's semi-automatic weapon ban, supported Ted Kennedy's attempt to outlaw many types of center fire ammunition and helped defeat a bill that would stifle frivolous lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

Kerry is nowhere close to the "center" of this issue, and you will have a great deal of difficulty convincing any shooter or hunter of your opinion.</font color>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>The gun rights media is also trying to make hay with the argument that Kerry was holding up a shotgun given to him by a union member at a Labor Day rally that "he would have had banned." This makes him a lying hypocrite in their view.

This is based on his co-sponsorship of Senate bill S 1431 ("The Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003"). And it is true that a technical reading of this bill could be construed to ban the the Remington 11-87 shotgun he held up. I read the law and agree it is ambiguous and could be interpreted in several ways. The argument stems around the definition of "pistol grip" and some other technicalities to detailed to get into here. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> S.1431 would have given the U.S. Attorney General power to ban any semi-automatic rifle or shotgun based on a design "procured for use by the United States military or any federal law enforcement agency." Ross, that includes the 11-87, which is used by law enforcement agencies all around the country. The bill went much farther than you are trying to imply.

Kerry's stated position is a sham, and every shooter in the country knows it. The record speaks for itself, and a phony staged photo-op isn't going to fool anyone who actually cares about their 2nd. Amendment Rights.</font color>

Fair_Play
10-06-2004, 06:01 PM
Shucks,

Kerry couldn't pass a gun safety course if he tried, heck, he shot himself, and in unsportsmanship fashion then another day backshot a <font color="red"> wounded </font color> VN kid who <font color="blue"> was running away </font color> ! Thats got to be against some gun regulation, even in "Heroic" Single Combat. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif (Rules of War).

The guy is a three dollar bill, plain and simple, and his shyster sidekick as well. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Simpe logic, deduction and reasoning. Head in the sand, "I need to be prez to impress my multi-national wifey meal ticket!!!!" In fower langwiches!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheateau Neuf du Pape et croissant! Force du Frappe!

All the Best,

Fair Play

TomBrooklyn
10-06-2004, 11:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>knowing that everytime guns are brought up the thread goes on forever. <hr /></blockquote>I'm sure hondo appreciates receiving any responses.

Ross
10-07-2004, 12:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> The argument that Kerry wants to "ban guns" is, IMO, just a more extreme version of the scare-mongering suggestion by the Repubs that he wanted to ban Bibles.<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> More extreme?? Ross, can you show us any legislation that the GOP has sponsored that indicates any kind of "ban" on the Bible? Because Kerry has a 20 year history of supporting every single piece of legislation restricting guns in America. Every time, Ross, every single time, without fail.</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>There is no doubt that Kerry is liberal and has been a gun control advocate. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> I can't argue that. Kerry has received a 100-percent rating from the Brady Campaign (Handgun Control, Inc.), The American Bar Association's Special Committee on Gun Violence and the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence. He has also won a 100-percent approval rating from the Humane Society of The United States and Fund for Animals. These groups are rabidly anti-gun or anti-hunting.

Kerry has also received an F rating from the NRA and a 0% rating from the Gun Owners of America.
<font color="green">I'm sure that is true. Kerry voting against the NRA 100% of the time means he has voted for legislation requiring checks to see if the gun purchaser was a felon, legislation requiring a 5-day waiting period before buying a lethal weapon, legislation outlawing "assault weapons", legislation requiring background checks guns sold at gun shows, legislation outlawing "armor piercing bullets", etc. I don't think that makes him "rabid" though. If you posted the content of the bills I bet they would get more than 50% support in the US (and of CCB'ers), so they aren't extreme except to the NRA types. </font color>

</font color>
Kerry voted to extend and expand President Clinton's semi-automatic weapon ban, supported Ted Kennedy's attempt to outlaw many types of center fire ammunition and helped defeat a bill that would stifle frivolous lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

<font color="green">Yes, I already noted that he was for the assault weapons ban and for banning "armor-piercing" bullets that had been certified by the US Attorney General as being more armor piercing than average for that caliber. What does any of this have to do with "banning guns" in general? (I don't have the so-called frivolous lawsuit legislation in front of me, so if you have the bill number or text, please post.)

And more to the point - you have missed my point. It doesn't make any sense to simultaneously argue that Kerry is pandering for the gun vote AND trying to pass legislation that would ban typical hunting shotguns (an act that would lose the every election for him).

You seem stuck again on the false dichotomy: a) you agree with the NRA's position or b) your against the 2nd admendment. Even the NRA, I believe, supports the legal ban on sawed-off shotguns and fully automatic machine guns. So is the NRA fighting against the 2nd Admendment? Of is it a matter that the NRA tries to define what is "reasonable" gun control and if you don't agree they label you as anti-2nd Admendment?

</font color>

Kerry is nowhere close to the "center" of this issue, and you will have a great deal of difficulty convincing any shooter or hunter of your opinion.</font color>

<font color="green">I said the same thing. My post said he was a liberal (not center) who supported gun control legislation. I just don't think that means that if he says he is for the right of hunters to own a gun to go hunting, that makes him a "hypocrite." </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>The gun rights media is also trying to make hay with the argument that Kerry was holding up a shotgun given to him by a union member at a Labor Day rally that "he would have had banned." This makes him a lying hypocrite in their view.

This is based on his co-sponsorship of Senate bill S 1431 ("The Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003"). And it is true that a technical reading of this bill could be construed to ban the the Remington 11-87 shotgun he held up. I read the law and agree it is ambiguous and could be interpreted in several ways. The argument stems around the definition of "pistol grip" and some other technicalities to detailed to get into here. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> S.1431 would have given the U.S. Attorney General power to ban any semi-automatic rifle or shotgun based on a design "procured for use by the United States military or any federal law enforcement agency." Ross, that includes the 11-87, which is used by law enforcement agencies all around the country. The bill went much farther than you are trying to imply.

<font color="green">I don't understand what you mean. I SAID EXPLICITLY the law was written ambiguously enough that it might outlaw the 11-87 so I wasn't limiting how far the law could reach. But there are different versions of the 11-87 --the law enforcement version has some differences from the hunting version and it is in dispute if the hunting version would be outlawed by the law.

But you ignored the point of my post. How can you or other conservatives logically claim both that Kerry is pandering for the gun vote AND in '03 sponsored legislation he knew would ban regular hunting shotguns and be extremely unpopular with the electorate? You ignore the more logical explanation that he sponsored the Assault Weapons Ban would ban because he thought it would ban "assault weapons", not everyday hunting shotguns. </font color>

Kerry's stated position is a sham, and every shooter in the country knows it.

<font color="green">I grew up with guns. I've hunted and killed deer, dove, quail, rabbits, snakes, and (sadly, in my teens) blackbirds with my shotguns and my .243 (OK, I know). I've won college rifle competitions. I own a gun. And I don't agree.

I think he is FOR hunters having guns designed for hunting and AGAINST assault weapons and armor piercing bullets, as is most of the US. I understand the arguments of pro-gun people who point out that these two concepts are hard to define legislatively. I think they have a point. But saying legislation is defective is not the same thing as saying the framers of the legislation meant it to be that way. </font color>
The record speaks for itself, and a phony staged photo-op isn't going to fool anyone who actually cares about their 2nd. Amendment Rights.

<font color="green">See arguments above. </font color>
</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

highsea
10-07-2004, 12:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>How can you or other conservatives logically claim both that Kerry is pandering for the gun vote AND in '03 sponsored legislation he knew would ban regular hunting shotguns and be extremely unpopular with the electorate? <hr /></blockquote>Because that's what Kerry does. He panders. If you can't make the law unambiguous, then don't write it. I believe it was intentionally ambiguous.

California has a law worded the same way. Semi-auto shotguns are illegal, period. No 1100's, no 11-87's, no auto-5's, nothing. No trap guns, no field guns. There hasn't been a PITA Grand National shoot in Cali since Stockton.

You can try to paint me as some kind of extremist NRA neo-nazi if you like, I really don't care. If Kerry's a hunting advocate, I'm an astronaut.

hondo
10-07-2004, 05:41 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yep.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>knowing that everytime guns are brought up the thread goes on forever. <hr /></blockquote>I'm sure hondo appreciates receiving any responses. <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
10-07-2004, 05:58 AM
As strongly as I am for Kerry I believe that he
needs to look closely at what guns are included
in bills he endorses. This aspect of his character
concerns me. I also feel Ashcroft is a bigger
danger to taking away our guns.
If they get back in &amp; terrorists' acts escalate,
who knows what liberties the masses will grant
the big four?!?! How's that for gloom &amp; doom?

Wally_in_Cincy
10-07-2004, 06:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>
...I also feel Ashcroft is a bigger
danger to taking away our guns....
<hr /></blockquote>

Do you have any evidence of his prior behavior regarding gun rights to make you think this?

Candyman
10-07-2004, 06:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fair_Play:</font><hr> Shucks,

Kerry couldn't pass a gun safety course if he tried, heck, he shot himself, and in unsportsmanship fashion then another day backshot a <font color="red"> wounded </font color> VN kid who <font color="blue"> was running away </font color> ! Thats got to be against some gun regulation, even in "Heroic" Single Combat. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif (Rules of War).

The guy is a three dollar bill, plain and simple, and his shyster sidekick as well. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Simpe logic, deduction and reasoning. Head in the sand, "I need to be prez to impress my multi-national wifey meal ticket!!!!" In fower langwiches!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheateau Neuf du Pape et croissant! Force du Frappe!

All the Best,

Fair Play <hr /></blockquote>

FP, why don't you tell us what you really think? LMAO /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

hondo
10-07-2004, 12:23 PM
Robert C. Byrd , a great patriot, stood up for the
Costitution against the excessive and un- Costitutional
powers Bush and Ashcroft hoped to gain through the
Patriot Act. With Byrd fighting for us perhaps we
can ward off Orwell's predictions for a few more years.



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>
...I also feel Ashcroft is a bigger
danger to taking away our guns....
<hr /></blockquote>

Do you have any evidence of his prior behavior regarding gun rights to make you think this? <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
10-07-2004, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Robert C. Byrd , a great patriot, stood up for the
Costitution against the excessive and un- Costitutional
powers Bush and Ashcroft hoped to gain through the
Patriot Act. With Byrd fighting for us perhaps we
can ward off Orwell's predictions for a few more years.
<hr /></blockquote>

If Byrd was so patriotic he would not have spent the last 30 years prying opening the pork barrel spigot with a crowbar, thereby increasing the deficit dramatically.

and yes I will accuse Bush of excessive spending too. It's quite enough to make me feel ill.

Ross
10-07-2004, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>
You can try to paint me as some kind of extremist NRA neo-nazi if you like, I really don't care. If Kerry's a hunting advocate, I'm an astronaut. <hr /></blockquote>

Highsea, you are calling yourself names now! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif And I would NEVER try to paint you -- it sounds too kinky.

hondo
10-08-2004, 09:41 AM
Hey, Byrd finally got into a position to help
poor old West Virginia a little bit. Read our history.
We got screwed worse than the Indians over the years.