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Chopstick
10-07-2004, 05:25 AM
I was coaching a guy in an eight ball match last night. The match was hill-hill. He had stripes and the eleven ball was frozen to the three and totally surrounded be solids right in the rack area. No balls in position for a break out. Solids could get out from there but it would be a miracle out. He comences to run out. I timed him out. I told him to stop making balls and play safe now. He wanted to make them all but one and then try to play safe. I told him now is not the time to make balls, now is the time to make the table more complicated for the other guy. He said nobody does that, if you have a shot at a ball you can make you are supposed to make it.

Well, as he took his shot he said I don't understand what you are talking about but I'll do it. He punched the thirteen ball and stopped the cue ball right in the center of the table. Maybe I should have been more specific, like bank the thirteen back down table near the cluster for a future break out and lay the cue ball on the end rail or behind one of his other balls. Oh well, it still wasn't bad. Solids would still have to play three perfect draw shots to get out and one of them was jacked up over a ball and had to go two rails and stop between two balls on the long rail that were only six inches apart.

Well that is exactly what he did. It was a spectacular out. Now my guy is mad at me cause he lost.

JimS
10-07-2004, 05:43 AM
It's too bad that had to happen because you obviously told him the correct thing to do...but as you admit, maybe you werent' quite specific enough. But, now he's learned the wrong thing and will not want to do the right thing in the future because it didn't work this time.

Maybe it would help for him to read George Fels book "How Would You Play This?" It gives many illustrations of situations that might occur on the table and recommends safety shots where appropriate.

I know I had problems seeing that I should stop making balls. After all making balls is the purpose of shooting! But once I became a student of the game and found that I had to have a plan of how to win for each rack, then I discovered the value of not making balls until I could see a way to get out. My problem then became not missing /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Bob_in_Cincy
10-07-2004, 05:49 AM
Jim,

I still find myself trying to run out instead of playing safe sometimes. It's a hard habit to break even if you know better.

Regards,
Bob

Wally_in_Cincy
10-07-2004, 06:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> ...Maybe it would help for him to read George Fels book "How Would You Play This?" It gives many illustrations of situations that might occur on the table and recommends safety shots where appropriate....<hr /></blockquote>

I was also going to suggest that. Or Larry Schwatrz's "8-ball handbook for winners"

If I know I can't get out I will usually make a couple of balls before playing safe, leaving 2 or 3 on the table. That does not coincide exactly with Fels or Schwartz's advice but it makes for a more interesting game. They recommend playing safe immediately.

I have seen games played like that and I just can't stand to watch it. May as well play 1-pocket if you're going to do that.

RedHell
10-07-2004, 06:23 AM
I can't remember who said it but:

"8-ball is like war and your balls are your soldiers, the more balls you make, the less soldiers you have to fight with..."

You did right and tried the right approach to a game that was already hard for him to win. It is too bad that it didn't work. But I think you have to insist. If you practice with that guy, you'll have a chance to explain your point again.

Very often in 8-ball, I sit on the last 4 or 5 because one of them is jammed up with my opponents ball. I always wait for him to break them, or leave me a shot where I have a break out I can't miss.

Two years ago, my team started the season on the wrong foot and we kept loosing games after games where we would run the first 6 or 7 but were unable to get the 8 or the last 2. Leaving our opponents with easy run outs. I noticed that and we had a quick meeting before the following week. I mentioned to the guys that we were making all the hard work only to serve them an easy win on a silver platter.

The team understood and started playing with a better strategic approach. We finnished first in the league that year !!!

Sid_Vicious
10-07-2004, 06:40 AM
"Well that is exactly what he did. It was a spectacular out. Now my guy is mad at me cause he lost."

Don't you just sort of predict some miracle like that when you whisper to your partner that's what it'd take to beat your suggested strategy!? I can't count the number of times I've had partners doubt my general plan after just such an out, and all I find I can say is, "He made a great out, any less and we'd be making the 8 by now instead, but he di make a nice out." sid

Chris Cass
10-07-2004, 06:42 AM
Well Chops,

Lesson learned. When coaching tell them their options and just let them have at it. It's their league money, their cue and unfortunately, their brain. lol

Take care and just show how the game is played,

C.C.

UWPoolGod
10-07-2004, 08:06 AM
Thats one thing that kind of bothers me when I am playing on a fun league or APA team. They ask me up for advice on certain shots or I'll go find out what their plan is. I have to try and figure out what they can do before offering up a safety or solution. And then when they don't perform it was my fault. Frustrating.

BTW..most of us are amateurs, but this is for the first year players out there...JUST TAP THE BALL MEANS TAP THE BALL, NOT BANK THE BALL 15 INCHES AWAY FROM WHERE IT USED TO BE!!! JUST HARD ENOUGH TO GET THE CUEBALL THERE!!!

..bbbreaaatthhh... okay I'm better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan
10-07-2004, 08:11 AM
Some folks take longer than others to lose the shoot-em-up cowboy mentality when playing league pool. They seem to forget that there is no partial credit for a "damn good run at it".

Your guy was already in a difficult situation, and you advised him on a reasonable plan to improve his chances of getting back to the table. No guarantees, just an improvement. Unfortunately he lost, but obviously the "Miracle Out" that the opponent played would have been easier with less clutter on the table, right?

Remind your cowboy that even though he lost, at least he didn't help his opponent win!

SpiderMan

Wally_in_Cincy
10-07-2004, 08:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr>

...I have to try and figure out what they can do before offering up a safety or solution.....

<hr /></blockquote>

and that is the secret of good coaching. A man's gotta know his teammate's limitations /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Unfortunately most of us still overestimate the capabilities of the folks we coach. Or they say "Yaeh sure, I can do that" and then they don't.

rah
10-07-2004, 09:09 AM
Those are the players you should fire!!!!! Let someone else pick up this hothead who won't take advice.

rah
10-07-2004, 09:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Some folks take longer than others to lose the shoot-em-up cowboy mentality when playing league pool. They seem to forget that there is no partial credit for a "damn good run at it".

Your guy was already in a difficult situation, and you advised him on a reasonable plan to improve his chances of getting back to the table. No guarantees, just an improvement. Unfortunately he lost, but obviously the "Miracle Out" that the opponent played would have been easier with less clutter on the table, right?

Remind your cowboy that even though he lost, at least he didn't help his opponent win!

SpiderMan
<hr /></blockquote>

This guy should sign up for Fred's team. Is Fred still wearing his cowboy hat in 8 ball LOL?

=k=
10-07-2004, 10:35 AM
yep!!! finally shaking my run out mentality, and now starting to win a more of the games i used to hand out /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif okay now going to have to find george's book

Wally_in_Cincy
10-07-2004, 11:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote =k=:</font><hr> yep!!! finally shaking my run out mentality, and now starting to win a more of the games i used to hand out /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif okay now going to have to find george's book <hr /></blockquote>

George's Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0809229560/qid=1097173065/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8722721-9976915?v=glance&amp;s=books)

woody_968
10-07-2004, 12:33 PM
One thing you have to explain when getting people to play 8 ball correctly (or any game) is that they have to learn to play the percentages. Will someone get out on you once in a while when you play this way? Sure. But in the long run they will win more games by not making many balls until they can actually get out.

Like some before mentioned though, you have to know the players ability. It doesnt do any good to have them leave 7 balls on the table if when they finally get the chance they cant run 7 balls.

SPetty
10-07-2004, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> It doesnt do any good to have them leave 7 balls on the table if when they finally get the chance they cant run 7 balls. <hr /></blockquote>ding ding ding ding ding ding ding!

Which is why I tend to play like Wally described - run a few, then play safe. I can run a few, I normally can't run 7. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

cycopath
10-07-2004, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>I will usually make a couple of balls before playing safe, leaving 2 or 3 on the table. That does not coincide exactly with Fels or Schwartz's advice but it makes for a more interesting game. They recommend playing safe immediately. <hr /></blockquote>

In 'The Eight Ball Bible' the author also recommends playing a lock up safe as early as possible to obtain a ball-in-hand early in the game. That way you can eliminate whatever problem ball or balls you have early in the rack, making for an easier run-out.

Rod
10-07-2004, 01:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Well, as he took his shot he said I don't understand what you are talking about but I'll do it. <hr /></blockquote>

Ah yes league and coaching. LOL It's difficult at times to explain what they need to do and why and have them understand. Clearly he didn't understand and said so. Right there was a clue to explain a little farther. I've seen this happen countless times. If there not capable or don't understand they clearly need more explanation or another option they do understand.

I realize time can be a factor, is it? This game was hill hill so he must have been doing something right. Sometimes and I do mean sometimes it's better to let them run a few depending on their level, If they can't run more than two or three balls they'll rarely win given an opportunity.

We use to have little sessions either well before league or another night showing circumstances and strategy involved with the game. Coaching was not allowed in league. Once they know why it's right or wrong and alternatives the learning curve begins. I use to tell them and still do when instructing; if you can't help but give up a shot, leave it long and c/b on the rail. If you can't leave it long at least leave it on the rail.

It's a two way street but the coach has to give them clear directions and/or options, otherwise their lost in the big city. LOL I might make a simple statement (and it does need to be simple) Hit the o/b near full on the right side and bank it down there (point where) your c/b will go there (point where) with just a center hit on the c/b. If they don't get that, like I said another option. Or just tell em to whack the hell out of it and take their chances! ha ha ha ha

Rod

SpiderMan
10-07-2004, 02:58 PM
That's good advice for a fairly capable player, but for someone like an APA 4 then it's usually better to have them facing only a four- or five-ball runout to finish the game. When I played APA I had to learn this the hard way, ie I tended to coach beginning players to make the same moves I would make. This did not maximize their chances of a win.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>I will usually make a couple of balls before playing safe, leaving 2 or 3 on the table. That does not coincide exactly with Fels or Schwartz's advice but it makes for a more interesting game. They recommend playing safe immediately. <hr /></blockquote>

In 'The Eight Ball Bible' the author also recommends playing a lock up safe as early as possible to obtain a ball-in-hand early in the game. That way you can eliminate whatever problem ball or balls you have early in the rack, making for an easier run-out. <hr /></blockquote>

Stretch
10-07-2004, 04:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> That's good advice for a fairly capable player, but for someone like an APA 4 then it's usually better to have them facing only a four- or five-ball runout to finish the game. When I played APA I had to learn this the hard way, ie I tended to coach beginning players to make the same moves I would make. This did not maximize their chances of a win.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>I will usually make a couple of balls before playing safe, leaving 2 or 3 on the table. That does not coincide exactly with Fels or Schwartz's advice but it makes for a more interesting game. They recommend playing safe immediately. <hr /></blockquote>

In 'The Eight Ball Bible' the author also recommends playing a lock up safe as early as possible to obtain a ball-in-hand early in the game. That way you can eliminate whatever problem ball or balls you have early in the rack, making for an easier run-out. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

That's an interesting approach, i'll have to start looking for those and track it's success. I completely agree with the notion that whatever move you make, make early. The thing with early safes is that your opponent still has lots of balls on the table. To be effective, you've got to do one heck of an evil safe to get him on ALL his balls, you know what i mean? So those situations are just not always there. I do attack the weakest part of the board (clusters and rail jams) early after securing the group though. It's all what you see at the time isn't it. That's the beauty of the game. Knowing what you can make out of a layout and being the first to exploit it. That and being steady enough to do the job on all "open" tables, and even getting it done with a break or two along the way. You still got to make all the shots when you've got the green light. For open tables I'll manouver early to take down the balls furthest away from the eight and work back towards to the key ball ( the one i use to set up the easy eight). I do it in that order, but i see it backwards from the eight. St~~that's plan A. For the rest of the alpahabet stay tuned lol~~

SpiderMan
10-08-2004, 09:15 AM
The situation where "making the move early" doesn't work as well is when you're coaching a low-skill player (APA 3 or 4) against an experienced player (APA 6 or 7).

I found that the 3 has the best chance of winning if they make 3 or 4 balls and then duck. If the 7 doesn't run out, the 3 is left with a situation where he only needs to make 4 balls, which is not too tough on a bar table. Remember, this doesn't have to work every time. When a 3 or 4 plays a 7 in APA, they only need 2 games to win the match. If they get one, there is tremendous pressure on the 7 to play without mistake for several games in a row.

If the 7 doesn't run out, and the 3 still has a full table, he often can't finish anyway.

Of course, it is important that the 3 choose his balls wisely, ie don't shoot in 3 hangers and leave the rest on the rail.

SpiderMan

snook789
10-10-2004, 04:26 AM
I have a questions
I have just started reading The Eight Ball Bible, where it has some of the same stratagy in this post.

Will this work playing 8 ball VNEA team league play, when each ball is a point and 8 ball is 3 ?
I can see it winning more games with this stragy, stop making balls if you don't have an out, But leaving open balls... my teammates may have my neck /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SpiderMan
10-11-2004, 09:07 AM
VNEA is a different animal entirely. There is additional incentive to run out, because not only do you get the 10 points for a win, but you also hold down your opponent's score. Depending on whether your match is near the end of the night, you may also have insight that will determine how you should play (based on team score at that point).

SpiderMan

SPetty
10-11-2004, 10:43 AM
Our local BCA handicapped league has changed the scoring rules this season - now it is one point per ball with no additional incentive for the 8 ball. If you run out to the 8 and miss, you'll get 7 points. If you run out to the 8 and make it, you'll get 8 points. That looks like little incentive to "play to win", but much incentive to run out as many balls at any time as you can.

Deeman2
10-11-2004, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Our local BCA handicapped league has changed the scoring rules this season - now it is one point per ball with no additional incentive for the 8 ball. If you run out to the 8 and miss, you'll get 7 points. If you run out to the 8 and make it, you'll get 8 points. That looks like little incentive to "play to win", but much incentive to run out as many balls at any time as you can. <hr /></blockquote>

Might as well play straight pool, huh? I guess you can win the popular vote but lose the election so to speak!

Deeman
not much on electorial college pool....

SpiderMan
10-11-2004, 02:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Our local BCA handicapped league has changed the scoring rules this season - now it is one point per ball with no additional incentive for the 8 ball. If you run out to the 8 and miss, you'll get 7 points. If you run out to the 8 and make it, you'll get 8 points. That looks like little incentive to "play to win", but much incentive to run out as many balls at any time as you can. <hr /></blockquote>

Might as well play straight pool, huh? I guess you can win the popular vote but lose the election so to speak!

Deeman
not much on electorial college pool.... <hr /></blockquote>

I guess I'd disagree, there's still an incentive to run out AND win. Winning stops the opponent's score counter.

If you stopped at 7, that means your opponent will definitely score 8. But if you make the 8, then he will get 7 at most, or as low as zero if you ran from the break.

When you're counting balls, think of it as getting "extra credit" for how bad you beat the opponent. Holding his score down does as much for the team as boosting your score up.

SpiderMan