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TinyDiabla
10-14-2004, 08:46 AM
I've read the various posts and *think* I have a good understanding of it. My only questions are:

Overall win% based on last 20 games or top 10?

If you lose 0 - 4, how do you get scored?

How do 8ball scratches and early 8's affect your innings per win. (for both the winner and loser of that game)

I've got a 3 that went up to a 4, barely keeping a 50% winning average, so it has me wondering.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-14-2004, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TinyDiabla:</font><hr> I've read the various posts and *think* I have a good understanding of it. My only questions are:

Overall win% based on last 20 games or top 10?

<font color="blue">20, I think. Otherwise anybody above a 50% win % would always be undefeated /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>

If you lose 0 - 4, how do you get scored?

<font color="blue">I don't know if you're "games won" matters or if it is just "matches won" </font color>

How do 8ball scratches and early 8's affect your innings per win. (for both the winner and loser of that game)

<font color="blue">Those are supposed to be thrown out, along with "8's on the snap". Sometimes I wonder though. I saw someone go up to a 4 after a low-inning match that was strictly due to these situations. </font color>

I've got a 3 that went up to a 4, barely keeping a 50% winning average, so it has me wondering.

<font color="blue">Probably based on their low innings. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Or I could be totally wrong /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hope this helps </font color>

pooltchr
10-14-2004, 02:02 PM
the only part I'm sure about is they look at the BEST 10 of your LAST 20 matches.
Steve

Wally_in_Cincy
10-15-2004, 06:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> the only part I'm sure about is they look at the BEST 10 of your LAST 20 matches....
<hr /></blockquote>

...to determine your innings per game.

breaknrun1
10-15-2004, 06:07 AM
I've read the various posts and *think* I have a good understanding of it. My only questions are:

Overall win% based on last 20 games or top 10?
<font color="blue"> </font color> Handicap is based on the best 10 scores out of your last 20. The applied score (limiter) is based on the career winning %.

If you lose 0 - 4, how do you get scored?
<font color="blue"> </font color> If you do not win a game, your average innnings is 10.00

How do 8ball scratches and early 8's affect your innings per win. (for both the winner and loser of that game)

<font color="blue"> </font color> Early 8's and SC8 are adjusted up to your average innings, therefore not affecting your handicap.

I've got a 3 that went up to a 4, barely keeping a 50% winning average, so it has me wondering.

jjinfla
10-15-2004, 08:27 PM
It is based on the BEST ten games out of the last 20.
But don't tell anyone because it is a secret and the formula is patented.

That is why playing a really good game can move you up but playing a really rotten game the next week does not move you down. The really rotten game is actually thrown out because it does not get into the top ten.

Of course until a person does get those first ten games the SL can jump all over the place.

This session in 9-ball, I started a new guy at an SL-6. First week he ran over another 6 and the following week he was an 8. Then in succeeding weeks he lost to a 5,7 &amp; 8 and dropped to a 7 and then a 6. This week playing as a 6 he beat a 7 so I suspect next week he will be a 7.

His goal is to play the best he can and become an SL-9.

I suggest you quit worrying about SL's and just have your players play the best they can. Don't listen to people who tell you to lose to lower your handicap because losing alone will not ensure that you can manipulate the SL. What it will do is ruin your game and waste your money. Why pay \$7.00 to play to lose?

Jake

thirtyeyes
10-19-2004, 12:12 AM
Here's what I've heard and read. Innings minus safeties divided by wins gives you a number (less is better) which is converted into a skill level. Then the best 10 of 20 was averaged for a final skill level. And I'd heard that wins above your normal average inning count were treated differently, they get adjusted to your normal skill level ratio, this is done to combat sandbagging. So in order to sandbag you have to actually loose a match, not just add innings to your win. Something similar for early 8's and scratch 8's, the win was recorded as your average if it was below your normal inning count, this was done to not move someone up unnecessarily. Like a 2 beating a 7 because of two Scratch 8's shouldn't become a 3 or a 4, right?

Is this correct? Is it close? Why is this such a mystery?

Fred Agnir
10-19-2004, 06:32 AM
I really think that guessing and misreading the question further fuels the frustration that people have with the handicapping system. And with this sport of ours, misinformation spreads like wildfire.

Fred &lt;~~~ sorry guys, just a little frustrated reading the responses

Rich R.
10-19-2004, 07:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I really think that guessing and misreading the question further fuels the frustration that people have with the handicapping system. And with this sport of ours, misinformation spreads like wildfire.

Fred &lt;~~~ sorry guys, just a little frustrated reading the responses <hr /></blockquote>
I agree with you Fred. To my knowledge, the APA does not, share the formula for their handicapping system. I can't understand why so many people, are willing to devote so much time and effort, into figuring out how to beat the system. They should be putting that time and effort into improving their game and beating their opponents. JMHO.

Personally, I don't care how the system works. I play pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jjinfla
10-19-2004, 07:21 AM
Is this the same Freddy who posted a pretty in-depth explanation of the handicap system a while back? Sounds like the powers to be have had a talk with you.

But seriously, the best 10 games out of the last 20 is pretty common knowledge. And the rest can be arrived at thru logical reasoning.

Of course if a person keeps losing on purpose his SL will not go up. But then at best it can only go down one SL. That is in the manual.

But if a person keeps losing then he can not participate in the best of the best - because he won't be one of the best.

I personally think the APA format for 8-ball sucks. Simply because a true 6 or 7 should never lose to 4's or lower. But of course they do. And what fun can it be to 2's, 3's, 4's having to play 6's and 7's and constantly getting beat?

I would like to see a format where the team Captains set their line-up prior to the start of the match where they list the five players for the night and then play each player in order of their handicap starting with lowest, or highest, first. At least that way all the matches would be pretty even.

Jake

Fred Agnir
10-19-2004, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Is this the same Freddy who posted a pretty in-depth explanation of the handicap system a while back? Sounds like the powers to be have had a talk with you.<hr /></blockquote>
It is the same Fred, and I have no conflict with that. I have no problem with spreading correct and acurate information.

To be specific, I believe your response was misleading to what the original person was asking. Therefore, you might be spreading misinformation. I'm sure it's not intentional.

The first question had to do with winning percentage and how it pertains to the handicapping system. To the best of what's been put out in public, there is nothing that suggests that the winning percentage is based on the best 10 of 20. Someone has responded that the winning percentage is your "career winning percentage." If this is true, I've never seen it or heard it. I think if we all took a look at our weekly sheet, we would come to the conclusion that the winning percentage put forth couldn't possibly be a career stat.

Fred

Rich R.
10-19-2004, 08:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> I personally think the APA format for 8-ball sucks. Simply because a true 6 or 7 should never lose to 4's or lower. But of course they do. And what fun can it be to 2's, 3's, 4's having to play 6's and 7's and constantly getting beat?<hr /></blockquote>
Jake, it is not the format that sucks. What sucks is a team captain who continually puts up 2's, 3's and 4's against 6's and 7's. They are just dumping a match and not trying to be competitive.
Team captains should attempt to put together matches, with close enough skill levels, where both players stand an honest chance to win. The match should be both fair and challenging to both players.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>I would like to see a format where the team Captains set their line-up prior to the start of the match where they list the five players for the night and then play each player in order of their handicap starting with lowest, or highest, first. At least that way all the matches would be pretty even.<hr /></blockquote>
Although your idea seems both good and fair on the surface, from my experience, it would be difficult to put to practice. In my league, for example, almost every team has some players who come late, because of work or other personal commitments. At the beginning of the night, captains may not be sure which players are going to be able to arrive by certain times. It would make your suggestion very difficult to put into practice.

Another problem I see is that some teams do not have players above the 4 or 5 level. It makes even match ups difficult, when the opposing team has a 6 or 7 to play.

breaknrun1
10-19-2004, 10:18 AM
Quote from Fred:
"The first question had to do with winning percentage and how it pertains to the handicapping system. To the best of what's been put out in public, there is nothing that suggests that the winning percentage is based on the best 10 of 20. Someone has responded that the winning percentage is your "career winning percentage." If this is true, I've never seen it or heard it. I think if we all took a look at our weekly sheet, we would come to the conclusion that the winning percentage put forth couldn't possibly be a career stat."
<font color="blue">Fred,
This came directly from my LO when I was discussing handicaps with him. He told me my applied score was based on my career winnings %. Whether he knows what he is talking about is still up for debate /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kelly</font color>

TinyDiabla
10-19-2004, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
I suggest you quit worrying about SL's and just have your players play the best they can. Don't listen to people who tell you to lose to lower your handicap because losing alone will not ensure that you can manipulate the SL. What it will do is ruin your game and waste your money. Why pay \$7.00 to play to lose?

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Nice of you to assume that my intent was to understand how my sandbagging 3 got moved up to a 4.

In reality, his first ever match played he played great. I was thinking he would be a really good 4. After that, it was all down hill. He lost game after game. Went to a 3. After 3 sessions, he finally started winning here and there. instead of winning 1 match out of 4 or 5, he was winning 2 or 3 out of 6. Out of his last 20 matches, he has around a 50% winning average. Then he got moved to a 4. I was merely trying to understand why someone who is just now shooting 50%, got moved up.

Bob_Jewett
10-19-2004, 05:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TinyDiabla:</font><hr> ... In reality, his first ever match played he played great. I was thinking he would be a really good 4. After that, it was all down hill. He lost game after game. Went to a 3. After 3 sessions, he finally started winning here and there. instead of winning 1 match out of 4 or 5, he was winning 2 or 3 out of 6. Out of his last 20 matches, he has around a 50% winning average. Then he got moved to a 4. I was merely trying to understand why someone who is just now shooting 50%, got moved up. <hr /></blockquote>
I thought that the APA system also looked at how you won your matches. Maybe he had too few misses per game won, or some such. Around here the USPPA is a league that keeps track of safe and open shots, and the rating is based on games won per open shot, roughly.

Another factor might be who he was beating. In the APA, are 3s supposed to win 50% of their matches against 6s and 7s? My understanding is that they are not.

Several years ago, an APA LO posted what he claimed was the system at that time to rec.sport.billiard and google may still have the post.

jjinfla
10-19-2004, 05:30 PM
You got me Fred. I was thinking SL and not percent won. And I hope you kow that I was just pulling your leg.

As far as I know the only time I have seen a record of won-loss was at the end of a session and it only pertained to the games played in that session for placement in the best of the best.

And of course just because a person has a winning percentage does not mean he should be moved up. It all depends on the SL of the person he beat. If he is consistently defeating weaker players (lower SL) then in all likelyhood his SL will not change since it is expected that he should win. However, if he is consistently defeating higher SL's then he can expect to be raised.

But actually I believe the APA does not want you to worry about statistics, nor do they look fondly upon people who keep stats. In fact the manual even frowns upon those who do keep stats. Just play your best game, forget about SL's, and have fun.

Jake

jjinfla
10-19-2004, 05:52 PM
Quote: Nice of you to assume that my intent was to understand how my sandbagging 3 got moved up to a 4. Unquote

Sorry you got that impression. Never meant to suggest your 3/4 was sandbagging.

I would have to believe that you played your 3 against players with higher SL's and he did well and that is why he got moved up to a 4. And it wouldn't surprise me that a well played loss against a 4 or 5 might give your player a higher computer raw score than a terribly played win against a 2. But we will never know. Unless you can get your LO to talk.

Jake

Wally_in_Cincy
10-20-2004, 05:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TinyDiabla:</font><hr>
...Out of his last 20 matches, he has around a 50% winning average. Then he got moved to a 4....<hr /></blockquote>

Around here, if there is a borderline case like this, our LO can drop the highest and lowest scores and recalculate the handicap.

Sometimes a 3 will have an inordinately good match. We had a 3 that played a 5 one night. The 5 was clearing balls off but could not finish, leaving the table wide open for the 3. Our 3 won 2 games in 2 innings. He went up the next week, but after the LO dropped that match and the lowest match and recalculated he went back down to a 3.

It's worth a try.

Buzzsaw
10-20-2004, 09:22 AM
I just started playing in an APA league and I've been playing in VNEA leagues for a while. But, since I had never played with the APA they made me a 4 coming in. I didn't really know what that meant but was willing to live with it. The first night they played me against a 7 and he was supposed to win 5 - 2. It just so happens this guy does the handicapping. I end up winning 2 - 1 and the next week I'm in as a 7. I can see going up but 3 points seems to be extreme.

It just seems the handicapping so subjective. The 7 that I played would have been a B player in the VNEA.

Deeman2
10-20-2004, 11:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Buzzsaw:</font><hr> I just started playing in an APA league and I've been playing in VNEA leagues for a while. But, since I had never played with the APA they made me a 4 coming in. I didn't really know what that meant but was willing to live with it. The first night they played me against a 7 and he was supposed to win 5 - 2. It just so happens this guy does the handicapping. I end up winning 2 - 1 and the next week I'm in as a 7. I can see going up but 3 points seems to be extreme.

It just seems the handicapping so subjective. The 7 that I played would have been a B player in the VNEA. <hr /></blockquote>

I've never heard of this happening in any league but maybe it was just a "battlefield promotion".

Who knows?

Deeman

Wally_in_Cincy
10-20-2004, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>

I've never heard of this happening in any league but maybe it was just a "battlefield promotion".

Who knows?

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

It happens. If a player's speed is obviously higher than his handicap he can be moveed up, even in the middle of a tournament

Deeman2
10-20-2004, 11:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
It happens. If a player's speed is obviously higher than his handicap he can be moveed up, even in the middle of a tournament <hr /></blockquote>
WoW

Dr. Barnhard,"You mean such power exists?" Glatoo, "I assure you, such power exists!" Glatoo, barrada, nikto...

Deeman

TinyDiabla
10-21-2004, 03:10 PM
I dont think my 3 has ever beat anyone higher than a 4. Typically he only played other 3's or sometimes 4's. He doesn't just shut them out. He is playing much better though. I think he finally got out of his shooting the 8ball jitters. It was always one of the last 2 balls he tends to screw up on..

I do keep stats for the team. Basically I record a Loss or the handicap they won against. I use this more for a motivator for the team then anything else. Our goal for each season is to average winning 3 matches a night. This ensures we'll always be in the top 5 for playoffs. It's nice to let my players know when they have improved durring a season, even if they haven't gone up in handicapp.

We've also had issues with the LO not recording scores accurately. Its a nice backup when things get out of whack. One captain use to keep track of everyones scores. That's pushing it a bit much. I play pool to have fun, not stress out about everything.

I think one season I stopped recording scores halfway through since we were all doing so horribly. No one, including myself, was playing to their potential. I was depressing seeing us only win 1 or 2 matches week after week. First time we didn't make the top 5. Think we ended 8th, out of 11 teams.

pooltchr
10-22-2004, 05:22 AM
I keep records for my team. During one session, we might play the same team two or even three times. It helps to be able to see how players matched up against the other team the last time we played. You can learn some interesting things. I had one player who just couldn't play well against females. I learned to only put him up against other guys, and he did fine. Sometimes, there are players that just seem to get into other player's heads. It can be good stuff to know.
Steve

Angel_R
10-29-2004, 08:50 PM
Good Discussion here!
I just started playing in the APA and have a higher handicap after my first week of a four. My captain says I'll be a seven. Oh well, I like the way being a higher handicap makes me play and think while I'm shooting. I have only played three weeks now, but I do practice alot and try to stay consistent. I have heard about players they call sandbaggers, but what I've heard about them is they like to keep their numbers down for tournament play. It doesn't seem like fun or competitive if you try to miss to keep your numbers down. Sounds more like a hustler to me and last thing I remember is this only costs \$5.00 to play and the extra buck for your run outs on the break. Oh well to each their own. When I play, I play to win and have fun. If I can't have both, I won't play. Everyone I've played so far have played the same way, to win and have fun!

Anyways, good discussion. Don't worry about the handicap, just play your game.

Angel /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
10-29-2004, 10:52 PM
DeeMan,

I was asked to join an APA team by a few of my tournament player aquaintences.
The nite I showed up I found that the tournament director was also on the same team as the League Operator. He told her that I should be rated a 7 from the start. I didn't have a problem with that, but my new team mates were very upset.

The tournament director (also a sl7) and I matched up everytime our teams played. He never won a match. So, I guess he was correct about me being a 7. I also won my fair share of his tournaments. Where I also had a wining record against him.

By the way, he and I are friends and always have been.

That was in the early 90s. I haven't played in the APA since, but know plenty of players that do and they all seem to look forward to those 'league nites'. For that, I am glad there is this venue for pool players.

For me, now it's all about tournaments and matching up. My league days are over. I don't miss them, but I do miss the players.