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Ross
10-14-2004, 09:41 PM
Whatever you think about Bush's policies, you have to admit he has lost the PR battle in worldwide opinion. There is no credible way to deny this.

How is it that after we were put in a position that gave us incredible sympathy around the world (9/11), three years later our government is despised by most of the civilized world? How do you move from a +8 to a -8 in world opinion in such a short time? Seriously - think about that for a few minutes.




Bush supporters are quick to say France and Germany were on Saddams payroll. But Britons, South Koreans, Canadians, Japanese, Australians, and Spaniards all want to see Bush out. To say nothing of the anger of Muslim nations toward the US. Neither Clinton, nor Bush Sr., nor Carter, nor Nixon, nor Kennedy, nor even Reagan have been so disliked around the world. In fact, I don't think any of these presidents have been so disliked by so many in the US.

Part of being a great leader is making good decisions AND selling your position to your audience. We have to do it our jobs all the time. Corporations know this - they invest heavily in PR.

Part of the task of defeating terrorism is to win the "hearts and minds" of the average, reasonable world citizen. If we don't, it is a piece of cake for another crazed US hater spring up and recruit soldiers for his battle against us. Bush has lost this half of the battle, which is as important as the military half.

Here is the latest snapshot of how well Bush's PR is working:

( http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/viewsofamerica/story/0,15221,1327568,00.html )

Poll Reveals World Anger at Bush

Eight out of 10 countries favour Kerry for president

Alan Travis, home affairs editor
Friday October 15, 2004

George Bush has squandered a wealth of sympathy around the world towards America since September 11 with public opinion in 10 leading countries - including some of its closest allies - growing more hostile to the United States while he has been in office.
According to a survey, voters in eight out of the 10 countries, including Britain, want to see the Democrat challenger, John Kerry, defeat President Bush in next month's US presidential election.

The poll, conducted by 10 of the world's leading newspapers, including France's Le Monde, Japan's Asahi Shimbun, Canada's La Presse, the Sydney Morning Herald and the Guardian, also shows that on balance world opinion does not believe that the war in Iraq has made a positive contribution to the fight against terror.

The results show that in Australia, Britain, Canada, France, Japan, Spain and South Korea a majority of voters share a rejection of the Iraq invasion, contempt for the Bush administration, a growing hostility to the US and a not-too-strong endorsement of Mr Kerry. But they all make a clear distinction between this kind of anti-Americanism and expressing a dislike of American people. On average 68% of those polled say they have a favourable opinion of Americans.

The 10-country poll suggests that rarely has an American administration faced such isolation and lack of public support amongst its closest allies.

The only exceptions to this trend are the Israelis - who back Bush 2-1 over Kerry and see the US as their security umbrella - and the Russians who, despite their traditional anti-Americanism, recorded unexpectedly favourable attitudes towards the US in the survey conducted in the immediate aftermath of the Beslan tragedy.

Fair_Play
10-14-2004, 09:54 PM
Quote Ross: [ QUOTE ]
Part of being a great leader is making good decisions AND selling your position to your audience <hr /></blockquote>This is really sad. You might know a little of my opinions on who I feel should be our nex prez.. that hasn't changed at this point.... <font color="blue"> however </font color> this is sad to the bone, what a stinkin lousy rotten crying shame that someone, anyone in the administration, advisors etc. have not seen the need to maintain a rapport of ANY kind around the world, other than the indifference that is demonstrated. No wonder Q has the feeling he does..

All I can say is the standard "Go Figure!"

As much as I have certain opinions about a certain senator, I do believe that he would not be in this administrations shoes reference world opinion...

My best hope is that GW, should he remain, will be advised to do some down and dirty fast and heavy damage control in this area...

Take Care, and may your creel ever be full of succulent rainbow!

Fair Play

<font color="blue"> "If they are too stupid to see it our way, they don't deserve to live!! </font color>

Wally_in_Cincy
10-15-2004, 05:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>

... Neither Clinton, nor Bush Sr., nor Carter, nor Nixon, nor Kennedy, nor even <font color="red">Reagan</font color> have been so disliked around the world....

<hr /></blockquote>

You have a short memory Ross.

While Reagan may not have been "hated" as much by the overseas Left as he was by the American Left he was derided around the world as a buffoon and a warmonger who had no business having his finger on the button.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-15-2004, 05:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>
...To say nothing of the anger of Muslim nations toward the US......

<hr /></blockquote>

All things considered, there are some Arab nations that should consider themselves lucky that their sandboxes have not been turned to glass.

Sid_Vicious
10-15-2004, 06:51 AM
A guy I work with answered that it was a good thing that the whole world was against us, I nearly fell over with sarcastic laughter and still chuckle when I think about that lunacy. What has many of this country's people come to with a statement like that? This country needs a revival back to correct thinking because being alone in the world won't work. We are an educated society and IMO should start thinking in a smarter, unemotional way, because it is purely dangerous to do otherwise. We need world support, at least a lot more than what we have today. To be led by someone with such a callous approach to this issue is borderline insane...sid

highsea
10-15-2004, 07:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>The poll, conducted by 10 of the world's leading newspapers, including France's Le Monde, Japan's Asahi Shimbun, Canada's La Presse, the Sydney Morning Herald and the Guardian, also shows that on balance world opinion does not believe that the war in Iraq has made a positive contribution to the fight against terror.<hr /></blockquote>Sounds pretty objective to me...As Clark Gable said to Vivian Leigh, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>How is it that after we were put in a position that gave us incredible sympathy around the world (9/11), three years later our government is despised by most of the civilized world?<hr /></blockquote>Is the US in need of the world's sympathy? Are you saying that 9/11 changed who our global allies are? Are you saying that somehow 9/11 made everyone fall in love with the US?

Ross, I'm sorry, but your remark strikes me as very arrogant. You toss out labels like the "civilized world". Tell me, what do you consider the "civilized world"? And of these civilized countries, how many of them were for or against us prior to 9/11, and how many did we lose for overthrowing Saddam Hussein?

How many of these civilized countries...Well, let me put it another way...Who do you think our allies are, and who are our adversaries? I'll take a short list or a long list, your choice.

It seems like everybody is suddenly an expert on geopolitics. Do you think they could pick out Pakistan on a map if there were no names on it? How about Tajikistan? Armenia? Lebanon? Bangledesh? Do they know if these countries are Muslim? Hindu? Christian? Buddhist? Or do they not matter? Or does the definition of a civilized country stop at Western Europe?

Last week Australia voted John Howard in as PM for a 4th term. They happen to be one of our strongest allies, and have had forces in Afghanistan and Iraq since day one. They have special ops guys that are every bit as good as ours, if not better. As a matter of fact, every country you mentioned with the exception of Canada and Spain supports us in Iraq, and every one except Japan and South Korea have forces in Afghanistan. These aren't heavily militarized countries. They don't have the ability to send forces out at the level we do, so of course the US will shoulder most of the burden. I won't even go into the Brits here.

So I'm really interested in your worldview. Since we've lost worldwide opinion, what should we do? Fire Bush and hire Kerry? Will that fix everything?

What will Kerry say to Australia when he scraps the JSF and leaves them hanging with a fleet of worn out F-111's and F-18's, a broken contract, millions of wasted dollars, a hostile Indonesia with a new fleet of SU-27's and Chinese Cruise Missiles, and a map that says Northern Australia is Indonesian territory?

Sorry, my friend, but this is the same stuff we heard about Reagan. It ain't a popularity contest right now, it's about spanking the bad guys.

Qtec
10-15-2004, 07:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It seems like everybody is suddenly an expert on geopolitics. Do you think they could pick out Pakistan on a map if there were no names on it? How about Tajikistan? Armenia? Lebanon? Bangledesh? Do they know if these countries are Muslim? Hindu? Christian? Buddhist? Or do they not matter? Or does the definition of a civilized country stop at Western Europe?
<hr /></blockquote>




[ QUOTE ]
Global goofs: U.S. youth can't find Iraq

WASHINGTON (AP) --Young Americans may soon have to fight a war in Iraq, but most of them can't even find that country on a map, the National Geographic Society said Wednesday.

The society survey found that only about one in seven -- 13 percent -- of Americans between the age of 18 and 24, the prime age for military warriors, could find Iraq. The score was the same for Iran, an Iraqi neighbor.

Although the majority, 58 percent, of the young Americans surveyed knew that the Taliban and al Qaeda were based in Afghanistan, only 17 percent could find that country on a world map.

A U.S.-led force attacked the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan in October 2001, and President Bush has said he is prepared to use force to rid Iraq of any chemical, nuclear or biological weapons programs.

The survey asked 56 geographic and current events questions of young people in nine countries and scored the results with traditional grades.

The surveyed Americans got a "D," with an average of 23 correct answers. Mexico ranked last with an average score of 21, just three points from a failing grade.

Topping the scoring was Sweden, with an average of 40, followed by Germany and Italy, each with 38. None of the countries got an "A," which required average scores of 42 correct answers or better on the 56 questions.

"Someone once said that war is God's way of teaching geography, but today, apparently war or even the threat of war cannot adequately teach geography," said John Fahey, president of the National Geographic Society.

"More American young people can tell you where an island that the 'Survivor' TV series came from is located than can identify Afghanistan or Iraq. Ironically a TV show seems more real or at least more meaningful interesting or relevant than reality."

National Geographic is convening an international panel of policy makers and business and media leaders to find ways to improve geographic education and to encourage interest in world affairs, the society said.

Other findings from the survey
Thirty-four percent of the young Americans knew that the island used on last season's "Survivor" show was located in the South Pacific, but only 30 percent could locate the state of New Jersey on a map. The "Survivor" show's location was the Marquesas Islands in the eastern South Pacific.

When asked to find 10 specific states on a map of the United States, only California and Texas could be located by a large majority of those surveyed. Both states were correctly located by 89 percent of the participants. Only 51 percent could find New York, the nation's third most populous state.

On a world map, Americans could find on average only seven of 16 countries in the quiz. Only 89 percent of the Americans surveyed could find their own country on the map.

In the world map test, Swedes could find an average of 13 of the 16 countries. Germans and Italians were next, with an average of 12 each.

Only 71 percent of the surveyed Americans could locate on the map the Pacific Ocean, the world's largest body of water. Worldwide, three in 10 of those surveyed could not correctly locate the Pacific Ocean.

Although 81 percent of the surveyed Americans knew that the Middle East is the Earth's largest oil exporter, only 24 percent could find Saudi Arabia on the map.

The international survey was conducted for the National Geographic by RoperASW. The results were based on face-to-face interviews with at least 300 men and women aged 18 to 24 in Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Sweden, Britain and the United States.

The questionnaires were in the local language, but the content was universally the same.






Q

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz
<hr /></blockquote>

highsea
10-15-2004, 07:34 AM
NCLB /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Q, the US has always been terrible at teaching history and geography. For some reason our education system thinks modern history is everything after WW2, and geography is naming the 50 States.

Pathetic.

eg8r
10-15-2004, 07:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Q, the US has always been terrible at teaching history and geography. For some reason our education system thinks modern history is everything after WW2, and geography is naming the 50 States.

Pathetic. <hr /></blockquote> Maybe the government should throw more money at the education system. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

eg8r

highsea
10-15-2004, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Maybe the government should throw more money ...<hr /></blockquote>That's the plan... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Kerry "tax cuts". I kid you not. Note: These numbers are Billions.

[ QUOTE ]
Education
<font color="red">Fully Fund NCLB</font color>: 100
Phase-in fully fund Special Ed: 47
College Opportunity Tax Credit: 52
School Modernization Bonds: 8

Note: <font color="red">Fully fund NCLB includes</font color>:

Great Teachers: 30
After-school: 15
Improving High Schools: 4.5
Other: 50.5<hr /></blockquote>

I especially like the $50.5 Billion for "other". But it will be nice to have "Great Teachers", if it only costs us $30 Billion dollars.

Read all about it at www.johnkerry.com. (http://www.johnkerry.com.) Click on "Economy and Jobs", and open the "Kerry-Edwards economic plan" pdf file. The first several pages are Bush bashes, the last two have the "tax cut" charts. Seriously, this is a must read, if you like short fiction.

BTW, that's $207 Billion in new spending. Err, tax cuts.