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View Full Version : The stroke must always be the same.

Chopstick
10-15-2004, 10:42 AM
I have heard this for years but I had no idea what it means or how it could be possible. I always set up the same and took a stroke that fit the situation. I had more different strokes than a golfer has clubs in the bag. Did you ever stand over a match winning out and suddenly lose your sense of speed, duff your first shot short or over juice the next to the last ball. Well, here is the cure, I just figured it out today. I believe that the stroke can be exactly the same on every shot and I set up some shots to prove it to myself. I had a fellow try to tell me this years ago but I didn't know what he was talking about. Then I heard Buddy Hall had said it, so I tried to figure it out. Trust me, this is big.

Set up two shots on the table. It helps to set both shots up at the same time so you can immediately shoot the second shot and maintain the same feeling as the first shot. The first is the stop shot with one additional roll from Kinister's 60 minute workout. The second is the number 4 reference shot from the Pro Book. This shot is a simple cut in the corner. The cue ball goes two rails and stops dead center of the table in between the side pockets. Obviously, if you hit both shots with the same stroke speed, on the cut shot, the cue ball will over shoot the center of the table every time.

Shoot the first shot normal and then immediately stand over the second shot and use exactly the same stroke speed only cut the length of your bridge in half and shoot the cut shot. The cue ball will stop very near the center of the table. Continue to set up both shots and figure out how much to cut down your bridge so the cue ball stops in the center of the table using exactly the same stroke speed as the first shot. You can use the same stroke and reliably control how far the cue ball rolls by altering the length of your bridge.

The more constant your stroke is, the more consistant you will be. Pool is an abstract art. Every situation is different. How can you know how much bridge to use? The same way a high school trombone player or violinist can not only find the right notes but they can do it with perfect intonation. There are no reference points on these instruments either. Every one see the difference between four and six inches. Very few people can take a cue ball in their hand and reliably roll it four or six feet. The more constants you bring to a shot the better the odds are that the outcome will be what you expected.

The first is a stop shot. If you can make it roll forward one additional roll.
START(
%AO1D3%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg6D7%WC5C9%Xg6D6
)END

The second shot is cut into the corner and the cue ball goes two rails and stops in the center of the table.
START(
%Am9V0%P[2O6%So6M2%Um4U5%V[6P1%Ws5[2%Xm8V2%Ys4N7%Zm7U9%[h5C9
%\s4M5%]\7N5%^g5B8
)END

I realize that this must be common knowledge but no one ever told me and I've got thirty years of Spider bites to show for it.

recoveryjones
10-15-2004, 11:16 AM
Thanks for the post Chopsticks,

I've got Kinister videos and I also have the Pro Book and videos. I'm setting out on a practice routine with a goal to memorizing Kinisters 25 reference shots and The Pro Books 130 reference shots.

I've experimented with that shot #4 in the Pro book and find the line back to the centre of the table 90% of the time.Speed control is another story, however,as I can roll 1"-10" short or long. I will try your reccomended varied bridge length method as I'm heading to the pool hall for an all practise session. The pool hall I'm going to cost only \$10 all day so I'm going to take advantage.

Jose Parcia has been quoted saying that pool players practice all kinds of drills, however, only a small few practice speed control.According to him, speed control is vital. These reference shots seem to be excellent for that very thing. RJ

PQQLK9
10-15-2004, 11:23 AM
Scott Lee taught me that system.

Deeman2
10-15-2004, 11:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PQQLK9:</font><hr> Scott Lee taught me that system. <hr /></blockquote>

ME TOO!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Deeman

pooltchr
10-15-2004, 02:06 PM
Nick,
Did he also teach you that when you shorten your bridge, you need to choke up on the cue the same distance in order to maintain your stroke?
(I think I know the answer, but it's important to remember that part as well.)
Steve

Bob_Jewett
10-15-2004, 04:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
Set up two shots on the table. It helps to set both shots up at the same time so you can immediately shoot the second shot and maintain the same feeling as the first shot. The first is the stop shot with one additional roll from Kinister's 60 minute workout. The second is the number 4 reference shot from the Pro Book. This shot is a simple cut in the corner. The cue ball goes two rails and stops dead center of the table in between the side pockets. Obviously, if you hit both shots with the same stroke speed, on the cut shot, the cue ball will over shoot the center of the table every time. <hr /></blockquote>
I don't disagree with the importance of using a bridge length suitable for the shot, but I'm having a hard time believing this first part. Suppose you get the speed of the stick correct for the cut shot. Are you saying that you can't get the ball replacement shot to work with the same speed of stroke?

And aren't you really modifying your stroke (length of backswing and speed at impact) when you change your bridge length? So this leads to the question: what is kept the same?

I think the stroke should always be the same in that it is straight back and straight through, but surely the length and speed change. I can't imagine playing any game -- nine ball, straight pool, straight rail billiards -- with what is really a single stroke. And, of course, there are a few shots -- perhaps one in two hundred -- that require some special kind of stroke.

Here are two example shots. Place the object ball a ball off the cushion. Place the cue ball also a ball off the cushion and a ball away from the object ball. Nick the object ball, go to the cushion and freeze to the object ball which has barely moved. The second shot is to put an object ball on the foot rail a diamond from the pocket, and then bank that ball four cushions around the table to that pocket. I think these two strokes are different.

Rod
10-16-2004, 12:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, if you hit both shots with the same stroke speed, on the cut shot, the cue ball will over shoot the center of the table every time.
<hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
Shoot the first shot normal and then immediately stand over the second shot and use exactly the same stroke speed only cut the length of your bridge in half and shoot the cut shot. <hr /></blockquote>

Chopstik,

What are you saying? First you said if you use the same stroke speed the ball travels to far in the second shot.

Then you are saying use the same stroke speed but use a shorter bridge? If the stroke speed is the same it will still travel to far. 10 miles an hour is 10 miles an hour.

If it's hit at that speed no matter the bridge length it's good for one shot but not the other. Just because you hit a shot with a short bridge doesn't guarantee speed. Although it's no secret a shorter bridge might help you with speed, finesse and accuracy on certain shots.

I come up with a saying many years ago. It's called Long to Long and Short to Short. Meaning, as the bridge gets longer your back hand is farther back on the cue. When the bridge gets short then your back hand moves forward on the cue. They complement each other and the shot your going to shoot. It can help control speed but if it gets to short or long in an effort to use the same stroke or speed as your saying it makes the game more difficult for a number of reasons.

I'm a bit lost as to exactly what your trying to say. As I said it's no secret why moving around on the cue can help. There is more involved than just speed though. One thing for sure in the lower amature ranks it's hardly never used.

Next time you watch a pro match pay attention to where they hold the cue on "every shot". If you have a keen eye you'll notice little differences depending on the shot. Some are more pronounced than others but it's part of the game.

I happen to think it's great anytime someone learns something on their own. But you discovered something that's already out there and don't think you quite understand exactly how it works. That's based on your wording or explanation. Keep at it though, you will.

Rod

HallofFame
10-17-2004, 02:23 PM
The only reason you are gaining distance from a longer bridge is because there in naturally more power behind a nine inch bridge as opposed to a four inch bridge.

The only reason you should change your bridge distance is for a break shot (longer bridge) or a critical shot where accuracy in needed (shorter bridge).

You need to develop consistency to have consistency, if you keep changing your stroke you are getting no where.

I read in a book, I believe by Byrne, that stated; "for draw shots you should cue at one spot and vary your speed". THAT'S INSANE. It's hard enough to control your speed without VARYING it all the time, same goes for stroke.

Be consistent, consistent, consistent, consistent, consistent...

Don't always believe what you read in books; and Bert is a hustler NOT a pro.

"Next time you watch a pro match pay attention to where they hold the cue on "every shot". If you have a keen eye you'll notice little differences depending on the shot. Some are more pronounced than others but it's part of the game."

Very good quote. There are naturally many little differences in the "WAY" the cue is positioned, but the stroke is still the same everytime; with the exception of the number of strokes. Jimmy Reid is just one of the pros who holds his cue with the bridge hand already positioned, this way when he gets down his bridge hand ALWAYS falls at the same spot from the cue ball.

Good Luck,

Joe

Chris Cass
10-17-2004, 07:40 PM
Tap, Tap, Tap.

C.C.~~espescially Burt. Been there, seen it, caused major problems.

Bob_Jewett
10-17-2004, 09:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HallofFame:</font><hr>I read in a book, I believe by Byrne, that stated; "for draw shots you should cue at one spot and vary your speed". THAT'S INSANE. It's hard enough to control your speed without VARYING it all the time, same goes for stroke.
<hr /></blockquote>
So, if you have ball in hand behind the line, and there is a ball in the jaws of the corner pocket, and you have to draw the cue ball back two diamonds, you play it as speed X. And if you have a 1-foot straight in to the side pocket and you have to draw the cue ball back three inches, you also play it at speed X, but presumably much higher on the cue ball.

Is that right Joe?

Chopstick
10-18-2004, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>

And aren't you really modifying your stroke (length of backswing and speed at impact) when you change your bridge length? So this leads to the question: what is kept the same?

<hr /></blockquote>

The rhythm or pace of your hand going back and forth. Obviously, with a shorter bridge the stick has less time to accelerate. I have always altered my pace faster or slower to control distance. The end result is I have a consistency problem.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>

And, of course, there are a few shots -- perhaps one in two hundred -- that require some special kind of stroke.

<hr /></blockquote>

I have been using the same length stroke on every shot and trying to feel how hard to hit it. I have been using a "special kind of stroke" on almost every shot! No wonder I have a consistency problem.

Chopstick
10-18-2004, 09:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HallofFame:</font><hr>

I read in a book, I believe by Byrne, that stated; "for draw shots you should cue at one spot and vary your speed". THAT'S INSANE. It's hard enough to control your speed without VARYING it all the time, same goes for stroke.

<hr /></blockquote>

Amen brother. Like I said, this is all news to me. I am seeing an immediate improvement.

Chopstick
10-18-2004, 09:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>

So, if you have ball in hand behind the line, and there is a ball in the jaws of the corner pocket, and you have to draw the cue ball back two diamonds, you play it as speed X. And if you have a 1-foot straight in to the side pocket and you have to draw the cue ball back three inches, you also play it at speed X, but presumably much higher on the cue ball.

Is that right Joe?
<hr /></blockquote>

I would say yes, and with a shorter bridge.

rah
10-18-2004, 09:28 AM
I like the gist of your post, but it is not entirely correct. For example, on a shot into the side pocket where you want to roll 6 inches after making the easy shot, and the cue ball is close (within a foot let's say) of the OB, it is best to draw the cue back only an inch or two and following through the same. Yes, it is a punch shot, but I will bet you a million dollars I can roll closer to a spot on the table if you used your long stroke, short bridge, or whatever. If you don't believe me, just ask Scott Lee!

Bob_Jewett
10-18-2004, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>

So, if you have ball in hand behind the line, and there is a ball in the jaws of the corner pocket, and you have to draw the cue ball back two diamonds, you play it as speed X. And if you have a 1-foot straight in to the side pocket and you have to draw the cue ball back three inches, you also play it at speed X, but presumably much higher on the cue ball.

Is that right Joe?
<hr /></blockquote>

I would say yes, and with a shorter bridge. <hr /></blockquote>

I guess I wasn't clear. I was not talking about the tempo of the shot. I was talking about the speed at which the stick is moving when it hits the cue ball. Do you play those two shots with the same stick speed?

HallofFame
10-18-2004, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>

So, if you have ball in hand behind the line, and there is a ball in the jaws of the corner pocket, and you have to draw the cue ball back two diamonds, you play it as speed X. And if you have a 1-foot straight in to the side pocket and you have to draw the cue ball back three inches, you also play it at speed X, but presumably much higher on the cue ball.

Is that right Joe?
<hr /></blockquote>

I would say yes, and with a shorter bridge. <hr /></blockquote>

I guess I wasn't clear. I was not talking about the tempo of the shot. I was talking about the speed at which the stick is moving when it hits the cue ball. Do you play those two shots with the same stick speed? <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Bob,

I guess the answer to your example is no, obviously because the the greater distances involved you would have to adjust your speed.

I guess the following would be a better example of what Rempe is talking about:

Object ball one diamond from corner pocket.
Cue ball one diamond from ojbect ball.
Using normal stroke

To bring the cue ball back lets say a two diamonds from the object ball you use the same stroke and cue below center.

To bring the cue ball back lets say three diamonds from the object ball you use the same stroke and cue a bit lower.

Naturally, if you want to do something extreme you would have to adjust your stroke.

Let's say our shot was going into the corner pocket by the foot rail and you wanted to kick off the head rail, you might want to give yourself a little bit longer bridge since the oject and cue ball are relatively close, the margin for error is still large, so you can generate more power so as to deliver the cue ball back to the head rail.

Joe

Bob_Jewett
10-18-2004, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HallofFame:</font><hr>This way you keep your consistency of stroke and just have to adjust your cueing.
<hr /></blockquote>
Well, yes, but... Another way to keep one thing constant is to use the same point below center on most draw shots and vary the speed of the stroke.

I think in the case of follow, things are a little clearer. I believe you can have much better consistency by having normal roll on the cue ball on every shot and changing your speed to get a different length of roll after the cue ball hits the object ball. This allows the cue ball to do what it wants to do (roll smoothly on the cloth) rather than force the cue ball against its will.

I still disagree with the idea of hitting most draw shots at the same speed. I also think you need to be able to play the shots will all speeds and distances below center, especially if you are trying to control the angle off of nearly full cut shots. Finally, another advantage in hitting the cue ball well below center for draw shots (and adjusting your speed) is that this will result in the lowest possible speed on the object ball, which makes the pocket effectively larger.

Rod
10-18-2004, 03:58 PM
Bob,
Your method is far easier in my opinion and one I employ. The stroke speed should be kept at a minimum for accuracy and pocketing balls with consistancy. Shooting a ball, such as near the rail with a lot more speed than necessary is just asking for trouble. Like you said effectively larger pockets.

Stroke speed has to very a great deal anyway. There are far to many shots that speed in itself,(not to mention any english used)changes how and when the c/b reacts. When is well on the advanced side but a valuable part of the game.

There are shots during the game of course when, say less than a tip of draw or follow is used at any stroke speed.
It's a game of variables, it always has been and always will be. But I strongly support using well below center or well above center, and changing the stroke speed.

Rod

HallofFame
10-18-2004, 04:45 PM
Hi Bob and Rod,

I think you are missing the point Rempe is making. The example I have has nothing to do with cut shots or off the rail shots or anything extreme, it's just a simple straight in draw shot to the corner pocket.

If the draw shot is a part of the weaker players practice routine, he/she can practice this shot by adjusting the cueing with his/her normal stroke and find out his/her limitations.

Now, this player now KNOWS, lets say, with the cue ball 12 inches from the object ball with their normal stroke they will draw the cue ball back 12 inches with one half tip of low, 18 inches with one tip low, 24 inches with two tips low, etc. The only variable now is the cloth and how it's playing. If you start varying your speed on shots like this you will get into serious trouble, especially if you are playing straight pool.

I think what you guys did is take a simple example and try to expand it to EVERY shot on the table, we all know that is not possible to do.

Here's a tip to find your speed on any table:

Set up a number of one, two, and three rail shots; for example:

Object ball one diamond up and one diamond out from side pocket, cut ball in a straight line to the cue ball one diamond back; hit this shot a few times with your normal stroke. You now know where you cue ball will stop with YOUR NORMAL stroke.

Next set up a two railer out of the corner and two one railers (long and short side) and do the same thing.

Note the conditions of the table and climate.

When you get to the table your are playing at use the three rail side pocket shot to test the table and see what speed you need to play at. Now you know how to adjust your speed for this table.

If you are playing a marathon session be sure to do this often because the climatic conditions will surely chance; for example:

When you get to the tournament the room temperature is 69 degrees and empty, it starts filling up with players and spectators; it gets hotter, the balls begin to play differently. What happens if the A/C breaks, WOW; it's now 95 degrees. You better be aware of all this. What happens if you get to the TV table and have to shot under those HOT lights, the balls begin to react differently. These balls are PLASTIC, when plastic gets hot it gets SOFT, they begin to CLING together and separate differently.

Joe

Bob_Jewett
10-18-2004, 08:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HallofFame:</font><hr> I think what you guys did is take a simple example and try to expand it to EVERY shot on the table, we all know that is not possible to do. <hr /></blockquote>
I gave a few simple examples in which the advice won't work very well. I agree that you want to keep as much as possible constant, but I think the stroke speed is the wrong thing to concentrate on.

If you happen to see Rempe in the pool hall, you could set up a couple of draw shots that could be played either way (constant stick speed, or constant hit well below center) and it would be interesting to see which way he played them. Then try the shots with Efren and Earl. But be careful not to give away the purpose of your question so that you see his natural way to play the shots.

SpiderMan
10-19-2004, 12:37 PM
That's more like the real answer. You must learn to integrate all combinations of speed and tip placement.

For example, consider a nearly-straight-in shot where you want to stun the cue over at 90 degrees. You must choose the speed that will produce the desired amount of sideways cueball travel, then marry this with the correct tip placement to result in a sliding cueball at contact.

SpiderMan

RichardCranium
10-19-2004, 05:40 PM
If I may interject here...I think the work stroke may actually mean something els...I think what it should be is the "TEMPO" should always be the same...Let me explain...
Rods point about the short to short and long to long is good one....I use it on every shot...even the break

Myself...I relate the pool stroke to a putting stroke. but instead of hitting an OB your trying to hit a hole...

I learned some stuff from some Pro Tour putters that I think you can relate to pool and I use them in my pool stroke (RE: RODS POST) ...When putting "short" puts, your backswing is also very short and your follow through is the same distance forward as your back swing... As putts get longer and longer, you lenghten both your back swing and follow through...the longer your backwing, the longer your follow through.... Now here is the important part, and this is where the extra speed on puts comes from...The timing of the putting stroke is the "same"... Kind of like a tic toc on a clock, or in music a metronome (SP) (some pros actually put a metronome on the ground to practice putting).... As the stroke gets longer since your using the same "musical" tempo. the putter will pick up more speed on its way to the ball and thus send the ball further.....

Now I think this transfers to a pool stroke...Your really using only one "tempo"........for short shots you will use a short stroke...(short back short through)...as the shot gets longer....(not necessarily the shot itself, but the distance the cue ball has to travel) the longer the stroke will be...(but with the same "tempo")

I feel that if you use the same length stroke on every shot, and try to increase or decrease speed, your asking for a nasty word called "The Yips"

If you can keep one "tempo" and lengthen and shorten your stroke to match the "distance" of the shot you will be much better off.....A prime example would be Johnny Archer...He has a "tempo" in his stroke that is almost always the same....Same with Earl...

The other important peice is the "feel" factor, or how do I know how hard to hit this to make it end up here... Its the same as knowing how hard to hit a downhill or uphill putt....It is Instinctive... and if you try to make it mechanical, or systematic, you will NEVER be consistant at it...(pressure overides your systems and your mind relys on instict) If you let your instincts tell you how hard to hit the shot (or how long a stroke to use)...you will be right alot more than you think.... BUT....experience is how instincts are developed....if you have not done it before you have no instincts to rely on...the more you do it the more your instincts are developed......

Anyway...that is my thoughts on this subject....

Chopstick
10-19-2004, 06:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RichardCranium:</font><hr>

Now I think this transfers to a pool stroke...Your really using only one "tempo"........for short shots you will use a short stroke...(short back short through)...as the shot gets longer....(not necessarily the shot itself, but the distance the cue ball has to travel) the longer the stroke will be...(but with the same "tempo")

I feel that if you use the same length stroke on every shot, and try to increase or decrease speed, your asking for a nasty word called "The Yips"

If you can keep one "tempo" and lengthen and shorten your stroke to match the "distance" of the shot you will be much better off.....A prime example would be Johnny Archer...He has a "tempo" in his stroke that is almost always the same....Same with Earl...

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, Mr. Cranium, that is exactly what I am talking about, only you said it much better. Tempo is the word I was looking for. I was just using a shorter bridge as a limiting factor.

Qtec
10-19-2004, 06:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You need to develop consistency to have consistency, if you keep changing your stroke you are getting no where.

I read in a book, I believe by Byrne, that stated; "for draw shots you should cue at one spot and vary your speed". THAT'S INSANE. It's hard enough to control your speed without VARYING it all the time, same goes for stroke.

<hr /></blockquote>

I totally agree.

Q

Qtec
10-19-2004, 07:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Another way to keep one thing constant is to use the same point below center on most draw shots and vary the speed of the stroke.
<hr /></blockquote>

Take this example Bob.

START(
%Ak3J1%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%P]8S2%Qj2K1%Rf0N2%Sn2H4%Ws1C8
%Xk2J1
)END

rsb (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html)

Draw shots to A and B. A stun shot and a stun-run thru.
Using your method these are 4 different speeds of stroke.Which in effect gives 4 chances of getting the speed wrong.
Using HoF,s method, all 4 shots are the same!You play each shot exactly the same way.
Another advantage with this method is that if you know the spot to hit on the Qb to play the stun shot, you automatically know where to hit the Qb to bring it back 10cm. Hit this spot with the same speed of stroke and you will always be close to your desired position.

Q

Bob_Jewett
10-20-2004, 11:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Using your method these are 4 different speeds of stroke.Which in effect gives 4 chances of getting the speed wrong.<hr /></blockquote>
And if you use the "constant stick speed" method, you have four chances to get the height of the tip placement wrong.

The bottom line is that you need to learn to play shots both at different speeds and different tip positions. Here is a drill for you. Place the object ball by the center of the head cushion and two balls off the cushion. Place the cue ball also about two balls off that cushion and a diamond away so that the shot is about 3/4-full to make the ball. It is where you might place the cue ball when in hand to send it straight to the middle of the foot cushion.

If you use soft follow, there is a nearest spot on the side rail you can hit going forward. If you use your best soft draw, there is a closest (to the head rail) spot on the side rail you are standing by that you can get to.

The drill is to pick any point on the table below those two points and take the cue ball there. I think you will agree that it is not possible with a constant-speed hit.

It is not hard to judge different speeds. I think it is easier than to get the same accuracy on tip placement.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-20-2004, 12:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>

It is not hard to judge different speeds. I think it is easier than to get the same accuracy on tip placement. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree. I have stayed out of this until now.

Scott Lee teaches 4 basic speeds, 1,2,3, and 4 rails. If you practice them it's not that hard to repeat them as required. He also teaches to draw with 2 tips of low. It works for me.

Just my very humble opinion.

SpiderMan
10-20-2004, 12:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>

It is not hard to judge different speeds. I think it is easier than to get the same accuracy on tip placement. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree. I have stayed out of this until now.

Scott Lee teaches 4 basic speeds, 1,2,3, and 4 rails. If you practice them it's not that hard to repeat them as required. He also teaches to draw with 2 tips of low. It works for me.

Just my very humble opinion. <hr /></blockquote>

Wally,

I have to feel that, if it's working for you, then you can't be always using two tips of low.

Consider an almost-straight-in shot (maybe 10 degrees off line) where you want to stun the cueball perpendicular to the object ball's intended path. This means a sliding cueball (same as a stop shot) at the moment of contact.

If you play two tips of low, there is only one speed that will result in a sliding cueball at contact, and that speed will determine how far the cueball moves after contact. If you want more cueball travel (on the same line), you must hit it harder and higher. If you want less, you must hit it lower and slower.

The same analogy can be applied to almost any position play on cut shots, you need to be able to control both variables (speed and tip placement).

SpiderMan

Wally_in_Cincy
10-20-2004, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>

...Consider an almost-straight-in shot (maybe 10 degrees off line) where you want to stun the cueball perpendicular to the object ball's intended path. This means a sliding cueball (same as a stop shot) at the moment of contact.

If you play two tips of low, there is only one speed that will result in a sliding cueball at contact, and that speed will determine how far the cueball moves after contact. If you want more cueball travel (on the same line), you must hit it harder and higher. If you want less, you must hit it lower and slower....

<hr /></blockquote>

Sure I see what you're saying. I guess I was referring to a more or less straight draw.

SPetty
10-20-2004, 02:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> He also teaches to draw with 2 tips of low. It works for me.<hr /></blockquote>After his recently visit to the Dallas area, he's rethunk his position on that, and now agrees that there are other effective tip positions for draw.

Has anyone heard from Scott? Poster bsmutz was looking for him, and no one really answered that post.

JimS
10-21-2004, 05:30 AM
When I want to draw the cue ball I try to hit it as low and as softly as possible. Soft shots go it more often than hard shots. Of course this entails learning just how hard I have to hit the cue ball to achieve the desired draw but there are many conditions that require adjustments. Humidity, dirt on the cloth or cue ball, quality of cloth (cloth or felt?), size &amp; weight of the cue ball, condition of the cue tip......

Low &amp; slow is best/safest and then learn and adjust from there. Just ask a pro and that's what they will tell you...or at least that's what they've told me.