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cueball1950
10-18-2004, 10:00 PM
I was just wondering if you think that the top pro's should play in regional tours. ie; Johnny Archer and Earl playing on the SE tour. Or Tony robles playing on the Joss Tour. Tony only plays maybe 2 stops a year and there are over 20 stops. I think that they should if for no other reason than to bolster each tours playing level. This way the weaker players get to play and maybe improve their game. The only pro that i can see playing in most of his tours stops are Larry Nevel.......so should they play on regional tours................................mike

pooltchr
10-19-2004, 04:08 AM
Mike,
I absolutely agree they should play on the open regional tours when they have the chance. It's the only way most of us will ever get the chance to test ourselves against the very best.
Steve

JimS
10-19-2004, 04:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Mike,
I absolutely agree they should play on the open regional tours when they have the chance. It's the only way most of us will ever get the chance to test ourselves against the very best.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
........and given the lack of any money on a regular pro pool they have to play on the regional tours to make a living. It seems to me it's just an economic necessity. Kinda like it would be for a pro golfer without the PGA tour.

Leviathan
10-19-2004, 04:44 AM
'Lo, Mike: Sure, bring 'em on. As you say, they strengthen the regional tours (by increasing publicity values for the venues and other sponsors); and all the local players want a chance to play against them, like Poolteacher says. You've probably noticed that Mike Janis is adding some "amateur" events to the Viking Tour. I think that's a good development also--maybe it'll encourage more B and C players to get their feet wet.

AS

Ives
10-19-2004, 05:49 AM
I agree 100%, let them play, never been a fan of denying someone a chance to play in an event ( be it pool or any activity ) because they're considered a pro. Being denied the chance to play because your to good shouldn't be an issue.

Steve Lipsky
10-19-2004, 07:50 AM
Hey guys. I agree with Jim 100%. The money in pool has gotten so laughable that the top guys should have the right to play in any event they can.

Ralf Souquet comes in 2nd place in Atlanta and wins $4,400. Have the purses in pro pool gotten worse?

What would be the basis for denying them entry to an Open tournament, anyway?

The only instance in which I think it is reasonable to bar the professionals is if the event is a qualifier. The regional women's tours allow this, and I have no idea how it can be justified. It becomes a lottery to see who gets the spot. Draw Karen and Julie early, don't get the spot. Draw Karen and Julie late, get the spot.

Other than that, though, they should always be allowed to play, in my opinion.

- Steve

Barbara
10-19-2004, 08:00 AM
Steve,

All of JPNEWT's events are Qualifiers and I leave it up to the room owner or whomever's putting up the money as to whether they want to open the event up to the Touring Pros. The only exceptions are the State Championships. They are always open to the TPs unless it is specifically an Amateur only event.

And as to the mindset of some of the girls not wanting to play against the TPs in a Qualifier, it's a Catch-22.

Hey! It's fun playing against the TPs!

Barbara

TxRayburn
10-19-2004, 08:07 AM
Coming from a tournament director's and a player's point of view, let me just say that your question pretty much answers itself. No one has the right to hold an 'OPEN' event, just to turn away a pro for being such. Open suggests just that, an open event. If it is specified that it is amateur only, then no, they shouldn't play. I literally itch for a chance to play the women pros, and so do a lot of the players I know. We play with a pro from the senior tour on a regular basis. Anywayz, like I was told from an old legend, "If you play nothing but chumps, eventually you'll become a chump. If you play all the best players, you may never be the best, but at least you'll know you've done your best."

Around here we welcome the better competition, it's a challenge, and a huge feeling of accomplishment when one of our nobody's beats a somebody!

-Jen

Wally_in_Cincy
10-19-2004, 08:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>
...The money in pool has gotten so laughable...

<hr /></blockquote>

Steve,

I'm not so sure about that. Bert Kinister's latest ad in Inside Pool states that he has won $300,000 in tournaments this year alone.

Come to think of it, that is laughable /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rich R.
10-19-2004, 08:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> I'm not so sure about that. Bert Kinister's latest ad in Inside Pool states that he has won $300,000 in tournaments this year alone.<hr /></blockquote>
I would love to see that list of tournaments.

I'm also sure a lot of pro players would like to see it too, so they could play in some of them. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Rich R.
10-19-2004, 09:03 AM
After sticking my two cents worth in this thread, I got curious about Mr. Kinister's tournament wins. So I went to AZB's player finder, to look him up and see what winnings he had listed.

According to AZB, Mr. Kinister has won a total of $690.00, so far, in 2004.
Of course, that is an improvement over the $83.00 they show for 2003.

I don't know how up to date the AZB information is, but I don't know of a better list around.
Maybe someone out there has a clue, as to where Mr. Kinister won the additional $299,310.00 this year. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

MINISTRY
10-19-2004, 09:21 AM
Personally I would like to see the whole thing more organized. Take the NASCAR series as an example, (I am not a fan) they do have their system down to a science.

Have a regular venue of events, with each event top finishers recieving prizes. Players would also recieve points that would accumulate over the course of the season with the top ten finishers qualifying to compete in some sort of tounament of champions. The ranking system would be much easier to maintain with something like this in place.

Just to make a little more interesting let the ladies join the men in competition. It might help them develope some charisma the sport so desperately needs on the mens side right now.

#### leonard
10-19-2004, 11:18 AM
God I hate retelling old stories but in the 60s I wrote an article for the American Billiard Review saying we should copy the Pro-Golfers every tournament for Charity etc.

Golf is the Greatest Con-Game going for the players. It takes 1200+ volunters to run a golf tourney they each work between 100 and 150 hours. If they were to get paid just minimum wage there would be no money for the Golfers.

Forty years later they still haven't got a clue. There is no one in pool that can commit a million dollars to sponsor a pool tourney but almost every good private club has two or three people who can commit their advertising budget to Golf.

Poolplayers have to invade the private clubs with their pooltables for the members, otherwise the purses will continue to go South.####

onepocketchump
10-19-2004, 01:31 PM
without seeing the Kinister ad I tend to think he probably meant that his students/followers have won $300,000 in prizemoney this year. While this claim is probably not accurate and impossible to prove it is proabably spearheaded by the success of his one star student Neils Feijen.

John

woody_968
10-19-2004, 02:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote #### leonard:</font><hr> God I hate retelling old stories <hr /></blockquote>

You may hate tellin em, but I for one love your old stories /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif In fact its been a while since I have heard one of your stories and would love to see you post on some of your past experiences.

As far as your current post I couldnt agree more. The prize money for almost any other activity is better than it is for pool. Heck darts and scrabble that were on TV recently had more money in the pot.

I did notice that the trick shot show on TV last night had 25000 for the winner, Im sure there arent many tournaments with that type of payout!

Tying tournaments to charities so that sponsorship could be written off taxes could be a great start.

I will also say that IMO tournament support must start at the local levels and go up from there. I have always heard everyone (around my town) saying they wish there were better tournaments. But when someone puts a tournament on the fields are so small its a joke. Then you hear the excuses of "its handicaped" or "its not handicaped" or what ever reason people dont play. If all pool players in an area would show up and support what ever type of tournament was being put on business owners might realise there are enough people to support it for them to make the investment. Untill that happens Im sorry to say pool is on a downward spiral that wont stop.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-20-2004, 05:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote onepocketchump:</font><hr> without seeing the Kinister ad I tend to think he probably meant that his students/followers have won $300,000 in prizemoney this year. ...
<hr /></blockquote>

If that's what he meant he should have written it that way /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's a misprint or an editing error. I'll be sure to see if it changes next month.

Vagabond
10-20-2004, 05:28 AM
Hi Rich,
May be he( Bert Kennister) was trying to say that all the money won by all his viewers of his videos put together totals to that amount.I do not pay attention to this kind of claims.Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rich R.
10-20-2004, 06:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> Hi Rich,
May be he( Bert Kennister) was trying to say that all the money won by all his viewers of his videos put together totals to that amount.I do not pay attention to this kind of claims.Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Vagabond, although your version of the statement would be closer to the truth, I think it would still be a little overly optimistic. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TxRayburn
10-20-2004, 03:27 PM
Well, never heard of any money in the tournament area for pool pros, except for the tope ones. They all have sponsors and endorsemnet deals that have them set for life, continuing tournament wins or not. I think that's the key in pro sports, get the endorsements and you're all set. We, well, my husband anyway, and his 'colleagues' win more money gambling in a year than I have yet to see recorded by a pro off of tournament wins. But, gambling's no guarantee, and ya can't become a pro hustling. One thing I have learned playing pool and being around players, there's no such thing as a pool hall with ALL 'good' tables, and there's no such thing as a pool tournament without at least ONE major gripe from players. I play to enjoy the game, walt plays to make money, and we find a happy medium there. (Especially when i get to go shopping the day after an all nighter where he came out on top!!)

Anywayz, I think I'm probably getting off topic, so I'll hush here!

Jen

woody_968
10-20-2004, 04:10 PM
Which pros have endorsment deals that have them set for life? The two biggest deals I know of are Earls and Allisons, and I dont know that I would call them set for life.

cueball1950
10-20-2004, 05:55 PM
I do know this about Earl's endorcement deal. only cuz he told me that a couple of years ago he lost over 30k by not playing in enough tournaments. so apparently his deal is contingent on how many tournaments he plays in each year. Or atleast that is the impression he gave to us, the people standing around and chatting with him...........mike

TxRayburn
10-20-2004, 10:58 PM
Vivian Villereal, whom I would consider one of the lower top pros, has a deal with mohigan sun, as well as that indian tribe, i'll have to get the article out again. She's set for life, never has to play another game of pool, and she's still in the money. Jeanette Lee's is with Mosconi. I understand that while these players may not consider themselves so, someone who lived by upper class standards could MORE than survive on these endorsement deals. Personnally, I think too much money makes for a brewing pot of trouble. I couldn't be rich, it would make me a terrible person. I do think that there could definately be more money in the pro events, pool is kind of dealt the short end of the stick in that area.

Jen

Deeman2
10-21-2004, 06:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TxRayburn:</font><hr> Vivian Villereal, whom I would consider one of the lower top pros, has a deal with mohigan sun, as well as that indian tribe, i'll have to get the article out again. She's set for life, never has to play another game of pool, and she's still in the money. Jeanette Lee's is with Mosconi. I understand that while these players may not consider themselves so, someone who lived by upper class standards could MORE than survive on these endorsement deals. Personnally, I think too much money makes for a brewing pot of trouble. I couldn't be rich, it would make me a terrible person. I do think that there could definately be more money in the pro events, pool is kind of dealt the short end of the stick in that area.

Jen <hr /></blockquote>

Jen, I believe the only people set for life in this game are the table manufacturers. I would have to see evidence that any of the players, even the top ones, have any more than a marginal income from endorsements. I know a couple who do endorsements for little more than sticks and entry fees and these are not lower rung players.

I do wish there were some more money for them but they, as always, are treated as second class athletes, by most of the industry. I know there may be an exception or two but I sure don't know who they are.

Deeman

1on1pooltourneys
10-21-2004, 07:15 PM
On the subject of pro players being "set for life" on endorsement deals....there are probably more players than you realize that have a pretty sweet sponsorship. All though none of them may be "set for life", most of them are all getting a shot at proving themselves to their sponsors. This is the case for many of the up and coming pros now. I have heard many of them talk about some of their sponsorship deals and believe me...I think any of us would love the chance that some of these guys are getting.

Also, if you want to talk about somebody that is "set for life" because of pool, one name comes to mind. Nick Varner.
Nick is definitely "set for life" and has pool to thank for every quarter of it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 06:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1on1pooltourneys:</font><hr> On the subject of pro players being "set for life" on endorsement deals....there are probably more players than you realize that have a pretty sweet sponsorship. All though none of them may be "set for life", most of them are all getting a shot at proving themselves to their sponsors. This is the case for many of the up and coming pros now. I have heard many of them talk about some of their sponsorship deals and believe me...I think any of us would love the chance that some of these guys are getting.

Also, if you want to talk about somebody that is "set for life" because of pool, one name comes to mind. Nick Varner.
Nick is definitely "set for life" and has pool to thank for every quarter of it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Well, I guess we will just have to disagree as we may have different standards for "Set for Life". I think Nick has done well, but more through his cue sales than raw endorsements (and I do believe that is what we were talking about). I have talked to some of the up and coming players as well as some that are already there. I won't name names but the very best I heard of was not much better than I had described in my earlier post. I am all for big sponsorships but think for a minute of how cowardly the purses are in the tournaments and then figure why these same companies would give big sweet deals to the players?

Again, we can disagree but I still don't see any "set for life" deals going on out there.


Deeman
glad I don't have XXXXX's dental plan...

#### leonard
10-22-2004, 07:19 AM
Woody I would but I am waiting for Paul Dayton, the great cuemaker.

My only thought about prize money is that Tiger Wood's caddy made over $800,000 last year. Poolplayers are doing something wrong.####

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 07:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote #### leonard:</font><hr> Woody I would but I am waiting for Paul Dayton, the great cuemaker.

My only thought about prize money is that Tiger Wood's caddy made over $800,000 last year. Poolplayers are doing something wrong.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Well said!

Deeman