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Chopstick
10-22-2004, 06:43 AM
This concept has been around in golf for a while but I have never heard it mentioned in pool. It has to do with short delicate shots around the green and putting. No matter what the speed of the shot is, the club head must be accelerating through contact with the ball. Decelerating the club head during chip shots is a major fault for golfers. Surely it must be present in pool in some form. Has anyone ever heard anything about this?

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 07:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> This concept has been around in golf for a while but I have never heard it mentioned in pool. It has to do with short delicate shots around the green and putting. No matter what the speed of the shot is, the club head must be accelerating through contact with the ball. Decelerating the club head during chip shots is a major fault for golfers. Surely it must be present in pool in some form. Has anyone ever heard anything about this? <hr /></blockquote>

Chopstick,

I have always heard the same thing in pool, that the shot is crescendo (sorry for the misspelling, but I would have been beat about the eyes and ears in South Memphis for even using this word in my youth), building in tempo.

I don't think you can even draw a ball very well if you decellerate though the shot. I do know it is a very hard thing to explain to non players and also that Byrne once said it really does not matter but I think it does.

Deeman

Ives
10-22-2004, 08:01 AM
Isn't this pretty much what is meant by " stroke it don't poke it" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

RichardCranium
10-22-2004, 08:02 AM
Actually I think that concept has been around in Golf FOREVER...(JK)....I can't think of one shot in golf where you would want the club to decelerate....There is one "chip" that I can think of that you let the ground stop the club with no follow through, but that is in the rough right next to the green and your just trying to pop the ball out of the rough onto the green....(but the club is still accelerating at point of impact).....In golf "follow through= acceleration through the ball) I tell students "swing to a finish"....Alot of beginners will swing "at" the ball but not to a finish...The club will never get above hip high in the finish... They don't realize that they are actually putting the brakes on during impact...The golf swing in a nutshell is like cracking a whip...during impact...There is obviously alot more to the swing than "swinging to a finish" but it usually cures alot of "ills"....

How I pesonally relate this to pool...I shoot through the cb at the contact point of the ob....when shooting at the OB the cue will always be accelerating through impact...(works wonders on the draw stroke).....

Once you have lined up the shot, I pretty much forget about the cue ball and try and shot the spot on the ob with the back hand..(that insures that I stroke down the line)

With all this I don't have to try and draw the ball it "Just happens" as part of the stroke...I adjust my tip placement and or lengh of stroke depending on how far I want to draw the ball, or how hard or soft I want to hit the cue....(lots of variables of course) ....but by shooting at the ob...I am always accelerating through the cb....I can't think of any shots where you would not want the tip accelerating through the cue ball...(the break mabey???? Dohh ....(JK) )

Fred Agnir
10-22-2004, 08:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> This concept has been around in golf for a while but I have never heard it mentioned in pool. <hr /></blockquote>It's been mentioned all too many times. I'm sure it wasn't two months ago since the last go around.

The big bugaboo is the incorrect usage of physics terms. Not only is it impossible to accelerate through the ball, it's nearly impossible to accelerate the cuestick moments before hitting the cueball. I think the best case is constant velocity or near constant velocity, rather than rapid decelerating just before impact. I think that's what the instructors are really getting at.

Try the archives in google groups under
Group: rec.sport.billiard
Keyword: accelerate

Fred

poolguy123
10-22-2004, 08:17 AM
It seems like at the point of contact- a cue tip is at a certain speed- whether that speed is on the increase or on the decrease doesn't seem relevant. The only relevant part is whether the speed it does hit the cue ball at, is enough, too little, or too much for the shot at hand. (of course the contact point on the cueball is also a major factor)

Attempting to "accelerate" through the cue ball can only lead to more inconsistency IMO. Think about what accelerating means. From the time your cuestick starts its forward motion -all the way thru the contact point and beyond, it's speed is on the increase-i.e.CHANGING! How are you going to select the point in that speed range where you actually want contact to occur? Sounds impossible to me.

my $.02 - Jim

pooltchr
10-22-2004, 08:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote poolguy123:</font><hr>

Attem <hr /></blockquote>

I would have an easier time agreeing if you had said "decelerate"

Chopstick
10-22-2004, 08:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>

South Memphis

<hr /></blockquote>

Whitehaven? Do me and Spidey know you from the neighborhood?

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 09:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>

South Memphis

<hr /></blockquote>

Whitehaven? Do me and Spidey know you from the neighborhood? <hr /></blockquote>

Chopstick,

Spidy and me were in pool at different times in Memphis, I was playing from 1967 thru about 1974 and he started later. I went to Westwood H/S and played many a football game against Whitehaven. I was at Funland most, then River City and later at Highpockets but by then (1977)I lived overseas mostly. I'm sure we played many of the same people over the years. I lived on Coro Lake near Westwood, two doors from Jerry Lee.

Deeman
can't get rid of that redneck image.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

rah
10-22-2004, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> This concept has been around in golf for a while but I have never heard it mentioned in pool. It has to do with short delicate shots around the green and putting. No matter what the speed of the shot is, the club head must be accelerating through contact with the ball. Decelerating the club head during chip shots is a major fault for golfers. Surely it must be present in pool in some form. Has anyone ever heard anything about this? <hr /></blockquote>
Fred Agnir has mentioned someone filming this phenomenon, and the result was that the pro who insisted that he accelerated on every shot was mistaken as it was determined from slowing down the film and measuring the frames that his stroke was constant through the ball. Hope that is a correct account of what Fred mentioned.

However, in Billiards Digest, Allison Fisher made a big point on how you must accelerate through the ball.

Personally, I am a golfer and go for the acceleration theory and I tend to discount Fred's article he mentioned for whatever reason.....like the people didn't know what they were doing. However, they could still be correct, so at this point I have no strong opinion as I have noticed myself not accelerating through some shots when I am stroking smoothly, which leaves me to believe that that is some acceleration at first (there has to be), but that is stays steady through the cue ball. Who really knows? That's the bottom line.

SpiderMan
10-22-2004, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>

South Memphis

<hr /></blockquote>

Whitehaven? Do me and Spidey know you from the neighborhood? <hr /></blockquote>

Chopstick,

Spidy and me were in pool at different times in Memphis, I was playing from 1967 thru about 1974 and he started later. I went to Westwood H/S and played many a football game against Whitehaven. I was at Funland most, then River City and later at Highpockets but by then (1977)I lived overseas mostly. I'm sure we played many of the same people over the years. I lived on Coro Lake near Westwood, two doors from Jerry Lee.

Deeman
can't get rid of that redneck image.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Dee,

Chopstick and I went to school together. We started playing pool around 1974 or so. I told him about you last year, but he may have had too much warm Saki at the time.

We started at Funland, then migrated to Golden Cue, then River City. Also frequented The Rec in Southaven and maybe a little at Gene Chandler's on 51. We had both moved away by the era of Highpockets and The Rack, but went there when we were in town.

SpiderMan

Popcorn
10-22-2004, 10:16 AM
The pool stroke has such nuance to it, it would be hard to make a rule.

Sid_Vicious
10-22-2004, 10:20 AM
"Attempting to "accelerate" through the cue ball can only lead to more inconsistency IMO. Think about what accelerating means...."

I concur. I also think that acceleration is not the exact work for the billiard stroke, something like it mind you, but different. My concept of a proper speed is represented by the snooker players, A. Fisher a prime example. It appears to be forward moving and little to do with accelleration or decelleration, it just runs parallel to the table, and maintains a pretty much constant speed.

I'm personally not about to start attempting to accellerate on purpose, I can see many things to go wrong during that learning curve...sid

SpiderMan
10-22-2004, 10:30 AM
It's true, at least to the best I can tell, though it doesn't "really" happen. Let me elucidate (did we say that in South Memphis?):

You can (and should, I think) be accelerating (or at least not decelerating) the cue at the moment of tip contact. If you're decelerating, your're trying to adjust speed by a last-instant correction. This is very problematic, and spoils consistency as well as raising the chances of miscue.

The instant after contact, the cue must slow down due to the energy given up to the cueball, which is now moving faster than the stick. You cannot accelerate the cue through the contact, at least not without the forementioned discontinuity, and you can't make it "stay" on the cueball for an extended period. If you somehow make it "catch up" after contact (this is theoretically possible), it would be a double-hit foul anyway.

Since there is no secondary or extended contact, Robert Byrne was correct in writing that it doesn't matter whether or not you continue to accelerate. So why should you try to "accelerate through the ball" if it doesn't matter? Because it's impossible to time things perfectly, so TRYING to accelerate through the contact ensures that you don't pull your stroke BEFORE contact. Most of us realize the penalty of pulling the stroke (decelerating) at contact, ie the lost precision and increased risk of miscue.

It's like raising your head prematurely after a shot. Why would it matter if you raise your head after tip contact? Nothing can influence the cueball at that point, right? Yes, but if you habitually raise your head shortly AFTER contact, there will be times when you begin the motion BEFORE contact, and that WILL affect the results.

It's all about consistency.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> This concept has been around in golf for a while but I have never heard it mentioned in pool. It has to do with short delicate shots around the green and putting. No matter what the speed of the shot is, the club head must be accelerating through contact with the ball. Decelerating the club head during chip shots is a major fault for golfers. Surely it must be present in pool in some form. Has anyone ever heard anything about this? <hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
10-22-2004, 10:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote poolguy123:</font><hr> It seems like at the point of contact- a cue tip is at a certain speed- whether that speed is on the increase or on the decrease doesn't seem relevant. The only relevant part is whether the speed it does hit the cue ball at, is enough, too little, or too much for the shot at hand. (of course the contact point on the cueball is also a major factor)

Attempting to "accelerate" through the cue ball can only lead to more inconsistency IMO. Think about what accelerating means. From the time your cuestick starts its forward motion -all the way thru the contact point and beyond, it's speed is on the increase-i.e.CHANGING! How are you going to select the point in that speed range where you actually want contact to occur? Sounds impossible to me.
my $.02 - Jim <hr /></blockquote>

The acceleration is not constant, ie it approaches constant speed at contact (my belief). But if you carry the mental image of acceleration to the point of contact, it seems to reduce the chances of "pulling your stroke", ie adjusting your speed by pre-contact deceleration, a serious fundamental flaw. In other words, thinking of acceleration up to contact is a helpful tool for many of us.

SpiderMan

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>

South Memphis

<hr /></blockquote>

Whitehaven? Do me and Spidey know you from the neighborhood? <hr /></blockquote>

Chopstick,

Spidy and me were in pool at different times in Memphis, I was playing from 1967 thru about 1974 and he started later. I went to Westwood H/S and played many a football game against Whitehaven. I was at Funland most, then River City and later at Highpockets but by then (1977)I lived overseas mostly. I'm sure we played many of the same people over the years. I lived on Coro Lake near Westwood, two doors from Jerry Lee.

Deeman
can't get rid of that redneck image.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Dee,

Chop and I went to school together. We started playing pool (his idea, mainly) around 1974 or so.

We started at Funland, then migrated to Golden Cue, then River City. Also The Rec in Southaven and maybe a little at Gene Chandler's on 51. We had both moved away by the era of Highpockets and The Rack, but went there when we were in town.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Spiderman/Chopstick:

Did you know Elmer Lee, Danny Owens, "Sugar Bear", Doug Matlock?, all students (?) at Whitehaven. Did you cruise the Krystal? Have ribs from The Rondevous and Gridley's? Have pasta at Grisanty's? Climb over Elvis's back fence? Buy fireworks in Southhaven? Play one hole at the Rec with Jack? Watch Tiger High blow the finals to UCLA? Hurt when John Gunn died? Wonder how Keith Lee could bring the ball upcourt against a Louisville press, by himself? Race from Whitehaven to Aucabutla Lake in cars? Go to The Vapors without a gun? Run in the Ripley Relays? Watch James Strickland and Doyle bark at each other? Get the eight and the break from James Brown and still lose? Steal two of the ducks from the Peabody? Get lost on your first crosscountry solo in a plane and have to follow the Mississippi River back to the downtown airport? Be 3 blocks from The Loraine when MLK was murdered? Play on a softball team with Jerry Lawler? Watch Dave Brown get older? Know that WHBQ means "has best quartet"? Remember that WHER was the first and only all girl radio station in history? (in the backward South, no less), Ride the Pipin at the Fairgrounds, play tennis with Marge Thrasher and Rick Dees? Remember when Beal Street was a real bad place? Remember before Wally was F/L and Tom knew where California was?, Go scube diving in the Mississippi below the bridge to recover guns the police had dumped? Uh, oh, the statute of limitations might not be up on that one!

Yep, I am from Tiger town..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Deeman

BCgirl
10-22-2004, 11:16 AM
I know of quite a few players who preach this. Personally, I think that the duration of contact is just too short for this to have any effect on the CB. However, it does encourage a nice follow through.

The same players tend to encourage a pause in the stroke at the back of the final stroke. I find that I can't do this and maintain a consistent stroke over the full range of hit speeds.

It seems to me that the players who are religious about acceleration and pauses also vary their bridge length and the length of the backstroke more than most. I suspect that this is a convenient way to keep the acceleration (and therefore the feel of the stroke) consistent while varying the contact speed.

I contrast this with the technique that I tend to use, taking several practise strokes at the intended contact speed, before the final stroke.

Those players who do the full accelerate, pause, without practise strokes, do seem to address the ball and aim much more precisely than someone like Bustamente or Reyes with much more fluid strokes (... but as we all know, appearances can be deceiving).

I think that, at the end of the day, it's useful to try different techniques, and to understand what's happening, and why it works or doesn't work for you. At the end of the day, your stroke is about how to get _your_ muscles and joints to deliver the most precise hit, so it's better to find a technique that fits you, rather than trying to force yourself to use a specific technique.

BCgirl

Wally_in_Cincy
10-22-2004, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>

...Remember before Wally was F/L...
<hr /></blockquote>

I am not FL. I am Elvis.

hope this helps.

SpiderMan
10-22-2004, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>

South Memphis

<hr /></blockquote>

Whitehaven? Do me and Spidey know you from the neighborhood? <hr /></blockquote>

Chopstick,

Spidy and me were in pool at different times in Memphis, I was playing from 1967 thru about 1974 and he started later. I went to Westwood H/S and played many a football game against Whitehaven. I was at Funland most, then River City and later at Highpockets but by then (1977)I lived overseas mostly. I'm sure we played many of the same people over the years. I lived on Coro Lake near Westwood, two doors from Jerry Lee.

Deeman
can't get rid of that redneck image.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Dee,

Chop and I went to school together. We started playing pool (his idea, mainly) around 1974 or so.

We started at Funland, then migrated to Golden Cue, then River City. Also The Rec in Southaven and maybe a little at Gene Chandler's on 51. We had both moved away by the era of Highpockets and The Rack, but went there when we were in town.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Spiderman/Chopstick:

Did you know Elmer Lee, Danny Owens, "Sugar Bear", Doug Matlock?, all students (?) at Whitehaven. Did you cruise the Krystal? Have ribs from The Rondevous and Gridley's? Have pasta at Grisanty's? Climb over Elvis's back fence? Buy fireworks in Southhaven? Play one hole at the Rec with Jack? Watch Tiger High blow the finals to UCLA? Hurt when John Gunn died? Wonder how Keith Lee could bring the ball upcourt against a Louisville press, by himself? Race from Whitehaven to Aucabutla Lake in cars? Go to The Vapors without a gun? Run in the Ripley Relays? Watch James Strickland and Doyle bark at each other? Get the eight and the break from James Brown and still lose? Steal two of the ducks from the Peabody? Get lost on your first crosscountry solo in a plane and have to follow the Mississippi River back to the downtown airport? Be 3 blocks from The Loraine when MLK was murdered? Play on a softball team with Jerry Lawler? Watch Dave Brown get older? Know that WHBQ means "has best quartet"? Remember that WHER was the first and only all girl radio station in history? (in the backward South, no less), Ride the Pipin at the Fairgrounds, play tennis with Marge Thrasher and Rick Dees? Remember when Beal Street was a real bad place? Remember before Wally was F/L and Tom knew where California was?, Go scube diving in the Mississippi below the bridge to recover guns the police had dumped? Uh, oh, the statute of limitations might not be up on that one!

Yep, I am from Tiger town..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Deeman,

Did you:

Hang out at "The Tree" across from Krystals? Spend an evening at the Flying Hot Dog Ranch? Have a BBQ pizza at the original Leonard's pit? Go through Voodoo Village? After dark? And stay for dinner? Go to the Southwest Twin on "$2 carload night"? Climb over Hoyt Wooten's back fence to bag ducks? Remember when Elvis Presley Blvd was Highway 51? Remember when Shelby Drive was Whitecap Road? Meet "Super Shane"? Listen to Caboose and Box Tops when they were garage bands? Watch Big James con guys playing "find the queen"? Vote for Prince Mongo for mayor? Make out at the "Church on the River"? Make out in McKellar Park? Get chased by Burma T. Hobbs? See "Mandingo" at the Bellevue drive-in? Shop at Sears Crosstown? Read about Khang Rhee slipping his handcuffs? Park over on Swinnea Road to "watch the jets"? Play Mystery Gate? Paint the Hillcrest Viking?

Homeboy SpiderMan (ps - I think you meant Elmer Ray, and Jerry Lawler is still at it!!! Also, I thought they checked you for guns at the Vapors, and loaned you one if you forgot yours /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

RedHell
10-22-2004, 11:41 AM
I'm totaly in aggreement with Spiderman on this.

The accelaration concept, as Fred mentionned, is not expressed properly. In fact the cue accelerate gradually (not necessarily constantly), decelerate fast at impact and accelerate again after impact being pushed by the follow through.

What I think people should look at here is not cue ball movement but muscles usage. The concept of precision thru acceleration is that the muscles will contract only one way before and thru contact.

If you start decelarating before contact, you have either stop using your muscles or started using a different set of muscles which can induce movement in your arm and make you deviate during your stroke.

If your muscles contract always the same way thru contact, the flex in you arm/wrist/skin/hand will allow the cue to momentarily stop and start again being pushed by the follow thru.

This is why it is recommanded to follow thru... forget about tip speed, this is about arm/muscles usage.

If that make any sense !

SpiderMan
10-22-2004, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Know that WHBQ means "has best quartet"? <hr /></blockquote>

And WDIA meant?

SpiderMan

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 12:05 PM
Now I'm homesick!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Deeman

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> Know that WHBQ means "has best quartet"? <hr /></blockquote>

And WDIA meant?

We Died in Arkansas

Deeman

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
10-22-2004, 12:10 PM
Well we all know what can when you decelerate, so the term to help prevent that is acceleration. I think most know once the c/b is struck acceleration no longer exists. I'd rather deal with the term approaching the c/b.

Most of the game is played at slow to med speeds. IMO, in both cases the cue is closer to constant velocity before the c/b is struck. At faster speeds it leans towards acceleration but that is a very broad statement and won't always apply. So there you have it, don't decelerate. LOL

Rod

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 12:23 PM
Hey Deeman,

Did you:

Hang out at "The Tree" across from Krystals? Spend an evening at the Flying Hot Dog Ranch? Have a BBQ pizza at the original Leonard's pit? Go through Voodoo Village? After dark? And stay for dinner? Go to the Southwest Twin on "$2 carload night"? Climb over Hoyt Wooten's back fence to bag ducks? Remember when Elvis Presley Blvd was Highway 51? Remember when Shelby Drive was Whitecap Road? Meet "Super Shane"? Listen to Caboose and Box Tops when they were garage bands? Watch Big James con guys playing "find the queen"? Vote for Prince Mongo for mayor? Make out at the "Church on the River"? Make out in McKellar Park? Get chased by Burma T. Hobbs? See "Mandingo" at the Bellevue drive-in? Shop at Sears Crosstown? Read about Khang Rhee slipping his handcuffs? Park over on Swinnea Road to "watch the jets"? Play Mystery Gate? Paint the Hillcrest Viking?

Homeboy SpiderMan (ps - I think you meant Elmer Ray, and Jerry Lawler is still at it!!! Also, I thought they checked you for guns at the Vapors, and loaned you one if you forgot yours /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif) <hr /></blockquote>

I did mean Elmer Ray, his Dad hated me and everyone else, I think. Had a fellow football player shot in the earlob driving through "Voodoo" Village, listened to the Box Tops and worked at Kroger with a member of The Barkays (watched them jam), watched Big James 3 card Monte the kids, still have a scar on my hand from Burma T. Hobbs, parked and got lucky on Swinney Road on a few occasions, ate Prince Mongo's pizza, got in two fights at the "Tree" (both Whitehaven rivals.) I even remember the Quarterback from Hillcrest that dressed just like Namath and even had the white shoes, cool back then..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Deeman

SpiderMan
10-22-2004, 12:50 PM
Maybe you can re-enact the Burma story sometime, I'm sure it's interesting. That sawed-off little bastard shot at me (or over me) one night when I was taking a leak. Good thing I already had it out!

SpiderMan

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Maybe you can re-enact the Burma story sometime, I'm sure it's interesting. That sawed-off little bastard shot at me (or over me) one night when I was taking a leak. Good thing I already had it out!

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Spidey,

You are going to make our Northern brethern think we were some kind of wild animals back in the day. I was an alterboy and deeply carry my religon...wait that's Kerry, not me.....

Deeman

Rod
10-22-2004, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> I'm totaly in aggreement with Spiderman on this.

The accelaration concept, as Fred mentionned, is not expressed properly. In fact the cue accelerate gradually (not necessarily constantly), decelerate fast at impact and accelerate again after impact being pushed by the follow through.

Well I think many of us are saying the same, just not as defined. The cue obviously has to accelerate to reach our desired internal speed.( Feel)

What I think people should look at here is not cue ball movement but muscles usage. The concept of precision thru acceleration is that the muscles will contract only one way before and thru contact.

Although I get the jest of the example I'm not so sure contract is the best choice of words. That's exactly what I tell any student not to do through impact, is contract their muscles.

If you start decelerating before contact, you have either stop using your muscles or started using a different set of muscles which can induce movement in your arm and make you deviate during your stroke.

I doubt they stopped using their muscles.

If your muscles contract always the same way thru contact, the flex in you arm/wrist/skin/hand will allow the cue to momentarily stop and start again being pushed by the follow thru.

There is that word again, contract. LOL The idea is no contract at all. That is the big killer of a pool stroke. Ideally momentum is reached (through feel) at that point the hand literally rides the cue through impact. This happens on most shots, but not all of course. That feeling of weightlessness if you will, is what makes the stroke look and feel effortless.

This is why it is recommanded to follow thru... forget about tip speed, this is about arm/muscles usage.

If that make any sense ! <hr /></blockquote>

Sure it makes sense, it is about muscle usage. If I'm instructing stroke, I go in depth (without overload) because it's important they understand what constitutes a good stroke. I use the term accelerate which gives them a basic idea of what the stroke should do.(it really depends on the person).

Does that make sense? Using text is a hard way to go for most, it's much easier using visual and verbal.

Rod

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> I'm totaly in aggreement with Spiderman on this.

The accelaration concept, as Fred mentionned, is not expressed properly. In fact the cue accelerate gradually (not necessarily constantly), decelerate fast at impact and accelerate again after impact being pushed by the follow through.

Well I think many of us are saying the same, just not as defined. The cue obviously has to accelerate to reach our desired internal speed.( Feel)

What I think people should look at here is not cue ball movement but muscles usage. The concept of precision thru acceleration is that the muscles will contract only one way before and thru contact.

Although I get the jest of the example I'm not so sure contract is the best choice of words. That's exactly what I tell any student not to do through impact, is contract their muscles.

If you start decelerating before contact, you have either stop using your muscles or started using a different set of muscles which can induce movement in your arm and make you deviate during your stroke.

I doubt they stopped using their muscles.

If your muscles contract always the same way thru contact, the flex in you arm/wrist/skin/hand will allow the cue to momentarily stop and start again being pushed by the follow thru.

There is that word again, contract. LOL The idea is no contract at all. That is the big killer of a pool stroke. Ideally momentum is reached (through feel) at that point the hand literally rides the cue through impact. This happens on most shots, but not all of course. That feeling of weightlessness if you will, is what makes the stroke look and feel effortless.

This is why it is recommanded to follow thru... forget about tip speed, this is about arm/muscles usage.

If that make any sense ! <hr /></blockquote>

Sure it makes sense, it is about muscle usage. If I'm instructing stroke, I go in depth (without overload) because it's important they understand what constitutes a good stroke. I use the term accelerate which gives them a basic idea of what the stroke should do.(it really depends on the person).

Does that make sense? Using text is a hard way to go for most, it's much easier using visual and verbal.

Rod

<hr /></blockquote>

Rod, I've heard some call it a "throwing motion" which seems to make good sense to me as you don't think of throwing as a decelerating motion, at least I don't.

Deeman

Chopstick
10-22-2004, 02:25 PM
Voodoo Village! OMG. You guys may not realize this but our mild mannered Spiderman is the all time champion of outrageous stunts. Not only has he been to Voodoo Village alone, he has been inside the temple and he tape recorded it. I heard the tape.

One hole with Jack is slice of life. I played him all the time. I used to call him Uncle Jack. Some other guys, Cross Eyed Harry, Lou Jones, Louie Roberts, Bobby Strickland, Black Mack from Detroit, Armakay, Richard Austin, Kinard, Lurch, Gerry Brock.

I saw Jack Hunter and Gerry Brock lock horns on that bumper pool table in the front of Funland for $20 a game. If you've never played bumper pool, both players shoot the first shot simultaneously like lagging for the break. If they both make the first ball they continue to shoot at the same time until one of them misses, and then shooting follows the normal pool order. Jack and Gerry ran the table simultaneously three times until Jack missed a ball in the forth rack. Amazing.

We have to have seen each other before. I used to live in Funland and River City. I worked in the Golden Cue after the big gambling bust. They gave me a gun when I came to work there.

Oh, and uhh, drag racing from McDonalds to Krystal, going to Pancho's Taco, what was that green sauce anyhow, Madame Bell's, Coleman's Barbaque.

I met Danny Owens once. A fellow who worked for him took me to his house. He was in his office sitting behind a desk and he didn't have a shirt on and I can tell you the rumors are true. Shot in the stomach point blank with 00 buckshot and tight pattern of 38s right in the chest. That man will die when he decides to. I do not believe he can be killed. I was hearing about him being the baddest SOB around since grade school.

JimS
10-22-2004, 02:37 PM
I think I'll just continue to think of all this as "follow thru" and get on with it.

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 02:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> Voodoo Village! OMG. You guys may not realize this but our mild mannered Spiderman is the all time champion of outrageous stunts. Not only has he been to Voodoo Village alone, he has been inside the temple and he tape recorded it. I heard the tape.

One hole with Jack is slice of life. I played him all the time. I used to call him Uncle Jack. Some other guys, Cross Eyed Harry, Lou Jones, Louie Roberts, Bobby Strickland, Black Mack from Detroit, Armakay, Richard Austin, Kinard, Lurch, Gerry Brock.

I saw Jack Hunter and Gerry Brock lock horns on that bumper pool table in the front of Funland for $20 a game. If you've never played bumper pool, both players shoot the first shot simultaneously like lagging for the break. If they both make the first ball they continue to shoot at the same time until one of them misses, and then shooting follows the normal pool order. Jack and Gerry ran the table simultaneously three times until Jack missed a ball in the forth rack. Amazing.

We have to have seen each other before. I used to live in Funland and River City. I worked in the Golden Cue after the big gambling bust. They gave me a gun when I came to work there.

Oh, and uhh, drag racing from McDonalds to Krystal, going to Pancho's Taco, what was that green sauce anyhow, Madame Bell's, Coleman's Barbaque.

I met Danny Owens once. A fellow who worked for him took me to his house. He was in his office sitting behind a desk and he didn't have a shirt on and I can tell you the rumors are true. Shot in the stomach point blank with 00 buckshot and tight pattern of 38s right in the chest. That man will die when he decides to. I do not believe he can be killed. I was hearing about him being the baddest SOB around since grade school. <hr /></blockquote>

Danny is that bad. Remember when they sent the 5 bikers after him and they all ended up in the hospital! First time the Hell's Angles claimed a single man jumped them!

I know most of the guys you mention, especially, Louie, Lou Jones and Kinard...Heyday for Memphis nine ball. Lurch and Richard Austin, what a group. Madam Bell's, Colemans, you said it!

Spiderman and I didn't remember each other as I was a bit early for him. Do you know who Highpockets was named after?


Deeman

nhp
10-23-2004, 05:29 PM
RedHell I've learned that the best possible stroke one can have, is a stroke with no muscle usage. This is where all the power and stroke comes from- its having a perfect stroke, without using any muscles. Ask Corey Duel about this, he's got a very powerful stroke, and he will tell you that there should be no muscles involved in the stroke at all. The only exception is the triceps of your arm pulling the cue back, but on the forward stroke, you should just release your arm and let the weight of the cue/arm do all the work for you.