PDA

View Full Version : Should the Pros be allowed to play in Qualifiers?



Barbara
10-22-2004, 11:22 AM
Okay folks, I need to hear some logical arguments from you. Most of you know I run a WPBA-sanctioned Regional Tour. Every event I hold is a Qualifier into a WPBA event, the State Championship Qs being exclusively for the WPBA Nationals. The Q goes to the highest-finishing Semi-Pro/Amateur player in all these events.

The WPBA states that the SCs must be open to the WPBA Touring Pros and if I don't want that to happen, then it has to be advertised as an "amateur/semi-pro only" event to exclude them. I hold 3 or 4 SCs every year.

For my other events, I generally let the room owner decide whether he wants to open his event to the WPBA TPs. After all, it's his/her money. Plus, I insist that the monies added be at least $1000 if s/he wants an open event.

Personally, I like having the TPs play in my events. The room owners do, too. They attract spectators and ROs like that. But some of the other girls don't like the fact that in order to win a Q, they might have to meet up with the very Pros they eventually want to play with.

It's a Catch-22 situation. Pretend that you're a very determined player, and you want to become a WPBA Touring Pro. What are your thoughts on this? What do you see as being the pros and cons of having a Qualifying event opened to the WPBA Pros?

TIA,

Barbara

Perk
10-22-2004, 11:38 AM
Yes.

I feel that a person should bave to play the competition to join the ranks. If you get an opportunity to play the better players, you will learn something. I attend some tourneys where you can play against some Pro's including Alex Pagulayan and Ronnie Wiseman at times, and other very high amatuers. If they show up its a bonus, cause the experience is worth it. If a bunch of no names show up and you win, you feel cheated.

Seems to me that if an individual is afraid to play the pros, then maybe they are not fit for the wpba. Got to get your seasoning somewhere. Also, there are so few WPBA events, that you can't blame the ladies for playing in Regional events.

As a spectator, I obviously want to see the pros in the regional events. As a spectator of pool in general, I would hope the competition of pool grows, that way when you see the brackets for a WPBA event, you know that all the ladies deserve to be there.

FWIW

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 12:06 PM
DITTO

Ross
10-22-2004, 12:34 PM
Barbara, when pro's are allowed are the tournaments seeded? I think that would affect my answer. I think Steve and some other posters implied they were not. If they aren't seeded, I imagine it would be very easy to have some very unfair draws if pros are allowed to play. If I was a player unlucky enough to draw say Karen and Julie very early I may not really get a fair chance to test my abilities against the others non-pros that were trying to qualify.

Eric.
10-22-2004, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> DITTO <hr /></blockquote>

I'll see yoour DITTO and raise you with another DITTO.


Eric &gt;needs a pair of Raymer glasses

Deeman2
10-22-2004, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> DITTO <hr /></blockquote>

I'll see yoour DITTO and raise you with another DITTO.


Eric &gt;needs a pair of Raymer glasses <hr /></blockquote>

I fold, At 52 I only have so many DITTOs left.....
/ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Deeman

Barbara
10-22-2004, 12:47 PM
No Ross, I don't seed anyone in my tournies. I do a pure blind draw with the help of CarolNYC's daughter to help keep me honest. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Barbara~~~hasn't gotten a bye in years... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

landshark77
10-22-2004, 01:16 PM
I DITTO Perks post and raise 5...I won't fold...and this ain't no bluff, LOL!

Seriously, I agree 100% with Perk and I posted my direct thoughts in the Jenn B. thread where this was originally started.

I do not think there should be seeding on the regional tours, how would this be benifical? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

For those ladies that complain about the pros playing in the regional tours: why? What are you going to do when you win that spot and you draw a top pro at the main event?

JMO

Eric.
10-22-2004, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> DITTO <hr /></blockquote>

I'll see yoour DITTO and raise you with another DITTO.


Eric &gt;needs a pair of Raymer glasses <hr /></blockquote>

I fold, At 52 I only have so many DITTOs left.....
/ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Don't worry about the age thing, as long as you have a pair of those glasses...


Eric

Eric.
10-22-2004, 01:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark77:</font><hr> I DITTO Perks post and raise 5...I won't fold...and this ain't no bluff, LOL!

<hr /></blockquote>

That's alot of DITTO's. People might think you stutter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Eric &gt;is no help for this thread

Eric.
10-22-2004, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> No Ross, I don't seed anyone in my tournies. I do a pure blind draw with the help of CarolNYC's daughter to help keep me honest. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Barbara~~~hasn't gotten a bye in years... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

For the sake of staying on topic, I agree that the Open events should allow TP's too. The draw can always be a factor in any tourney. If your aspiration is the WPBA, you might as well get used to it now. Even with a sh!t draw, you might come thru the B side. Worse comes to very worse, there's always next time. Hell, none of the girls on the regional tours depend on the money for income and all understand that this is a pursuit of passion, not a 'save for retirement' thing.


Eric &gt;has gotten by for years

landshark77
10-22-2004, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
That's alot of DITTO's. People might think you stutter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Wha wha what are y y y you t t t t talking ab b out? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Eric.
10-22-2004, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark77:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
That's alot of DITTO's. People might think you stutter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Wha wha what are y y y you t t t t talking ab b out? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

It was just a pa/pa/pa/passing thought. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Eric

Ross
10-22-2004, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark77:</font><hr> ...
I do not think there should be seeding on the regional tours, how would this be benifical? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
...
JMO <hr /></blockquote>

To me the answer seems obvious, especially when two of the entrants are often Karen and Julie, currently ranked number 2 and number 4 women in the country.

Look at it this way. If pros are not allowed and you play better than any other woman going for a qualifier, you are going to get it.

But if Karen and Julie and maybe other top pros are allowed and the tournament is not seeded then whether or not you win the qualifier will often be a function of the draw as much as your play. In a DE tournament obviously you are out after two losses. You may be the best non-pro at the tournament but the random draw has you playing Karen and Julie early on so you are out even though you are playing better than any other non-pro. Meanwhile weaker players get through to the end just because they didn't have to face either top pro.

I think the pros at least should be seeded. They could do this using their current WPBA ranking. If Karen and Julie were in the tournament this would ensure that every non-pro would have only one of them in their half of the bracket. This would also get rid of the problems like was mentioned in the other thread of the perception that Karen dumped to Julie so they could ensure coming in 1st and 2nd. If seeded Karen and Julie wouldn't meet until the end of the tournament, so there would be no advantage in dumping.

Steve Lipsky
10-22-2004, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark77:</font><hr> For those ladies that complain about the pros playing in the regional tours: why? What are you going to do when you win that spot and you draw a top pro at the main event?

JMO <hr /></blockquote>

Well, they're probably going to lose, that's what they're going to do when they draw them in the Pro event. But does this really strip them of their right to earn a spot to play in that pro tournament?

If I play in a qualifier that Efren is allowed to play in, and I won't beat Efren in either the qualifier OR the pro tournament, how does this somehow imply that I am not necessarily deserving of the spot? I don't see how you're getting from point A to point B here.

Here's another thing to consider. Many of these qualifiers in the Northeast have 15-20 girls. Some have had less. In a 16 player bracket, Karen and Julie comprise 12.5% of the players. If Gerda is in it too, that's almost 20%. 3 of the 16 spots are filled with talent most of these regional girls can't compete with. The size of the field is very relevant here - in a larger tournament, the odds of these top players making the draw "lopsided" are lessened. In a 16 player bracket, the presence of these ladies is an enormous factor. The moment the draw is done, you can look at it and see which girls are in trouble. If the field were 64 (like a pro tournament), there's so much more room for the lesser players to use to fight for that spot.

Alas, the regional tour fields are not 64. So what is the answer? My admittedly naive thought is to have two kinds of regional tournaments; ones the pros can play in, and ones they can't. The non-pro tournaments will be the qualifiers. I am sure there are a host of logistical problems arising from this solution, but the present situation can't be much better.

Just my opinion.

- Steve

cuechick
10-22-2004, 02:45 PM
I think it is interesting that most (or all?) of those who said yes to pros playing, have never driven 5+ hours, spent 250.00-300.00 in expenses only to drawn Julie Kelly in the first or 2nd round, as I have done, no less than 3 times.
To me, this is the equivalent of entering a local tennis tournament only to look up and see Venus and Serena walk in. The whole tournament becomes about getting a lucky draw and no longer about playing your best game. If someone is there, hoping to win that spot they have more on the line than a person just wanting to win some money, and knowing they have every advantage in doing so.
I think opening up SC is fine and a good shot of adrenaline for your events...once in awhile... but I know a lot of women, who did not play on NEWT because they felt they'd be throwing away there money... and I think pulling in new blood is also very important.
On SEAL, no pros are allowed and they get 2000.00 added to every event with no problem. I think it would be great if they added a state Championship or two as well...I do think playing the pros I have, has been excellent experience, but it also discouraged me from traveling to quite a few events, when finically, I just could not risk throwing my money away.

BLACKHEART
10-22-2004, 03:28 PM
I would like to offer an alternative suggestion. Make it open to all,but the top 15 pros...JER

woody_968
10-22-2004, 05:08 PM
For the most part I do not think they should play. I understand the advantages to having the pros in there for the spectators. And I agree that it can be good experience getting to play them once in a while.

BUT these tournaments are qualifiers, and its not fair IMO that the best player may be knocked out because of the draw. True if they make it to the tour they will have to play them there, but we are talking about 2 of the top 4 players on the tour! Obviously there arent that many women on tour that beat them regularly, so why should an amature have there dream taken away because they got a bad draw?

I think of it in like the prep tours in golf. They play the mini tours to get ready for playing the big tour, they dont step up and have to beat Tiger just to get there, they only have to prove that they are amoung the best that arent currently on the tour.

If you really want the best women to have the chance to test their games against the WPBA you cant have numbers two and four nocking players out.

If they do play I think I would like to see them seeded (even though I hate the seeding on the regular tour) or excluding the top 15 as was suggested.

Steve Lipsky
10-22-2004, 05:31 PM
One potential problem with barring the top 16 is it could lead to an interesting phenomenon: players 17-24 might be able to make a better living off the game than players 9-16.

Any player out of the top 8 isn't really making much in the pro tournaments; how can you tell someone ranked 12th that she can't play in the regional tournaments, but someone ranked 17th can?

I think if you limit the regional tours in such a fashion, you'd really have to keep it to barring the top 6. It's just not fair to punish some of these ladies for doing well on the pro tour, when they're not making much in earnings while doing it.

- Steve

Christy9
10-22-2004, 05:51 PM
I can see both sides of the issue. From a room owner's perspective, it is an advantage for a touring pro to be participating in the tournament. However, it is not fair for the amateurs or semi-pros who want a shot at participating in a pro event. I realize that the winner of the qualifying tournament will eventually have to compete against the top women players, but it's not fair to the one who drives halfway across the country thinking she has a good shot to win the qualifier only to be eliminated by a touring pro. Here's a scenario for you. Several years ago, a semi-pro travels 800 miles to play in a qualifier and draws a top touring pro. At the time, a very close friend of the touring pro was trying to break into the women's tour. The pro "lost to her friend". Needless to say, the friend won the winner's bracket, while the remaining participants had to play "the pro" on the loser's side. Now how would you like that to happen to you if you traveled 1600 miles round trip and spent over $500.00? Brutal!

cheesemouse
10-22-2004, 06:09 PM
Barbara,

I don't know the answer but I've read most of this and the other thread and I don't think anyone mentioned having the TP's give up games on the wire to the qualifying players. I don't know if this is possible under you tours quide lines but if it is you could try something like the top four ranked TP's players giving up more games than 5&gt;16, 17&gt;32 and so on...JAT
This way the TP's would be challenged and able to keep their games up while the lesser players would still have a chance to win and compare their games to the TP's...if it is true Karen is a lock when she shows up than she shouldn't mind giving up games. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SUPERSTAR
10-22-2004, 06:18 PM
You know. I already mentioned this in the JENNIFER BARRETTA thread, but no one seemed to believe me.

I also dropped the names of the offending parties so you don't have to worry about blowing someone's cover.

Nice to have someone on my side who was there.

HA!!!

SUPERSTAR

SUPERSTAR
10-22-2004, 06:38 PM
Steve, if i might ask you a question.

What is GINA'S take on all of this?
I know that she and the rest of the New York contingent used to be pretty hardcore about playing in the qualifiers.


Thanks

SUPERSTAR

Rod
10-22-2004, 06:51 PM
It sure is a tough one to over come I sure donít have an answer. Iím not sure anyone has, you can try to make players happy but that may not happen at this rate.
If you make players happy or at least give them a fair chance itís subject not to sit well with room owners/promoters. There in this business to make money and if they donít, well one less stop.

The tour could limit to certain pros but once again the room may decide not to drop that tournament if turn out is poor. If the tour declines there goes any chance of qualifying in that area. One side of me says there should be a limit on pros, while the other says Ė where do you draw the line, Top 6? IMO even 7 and below the talent is far better than most local players. They may not get beat as bad but a loss is a loss.

Just my two bits worth, no answers but some are needed.

Rod

Popcorn
10-22-2004, 07:20 PM
It depends on the intent of the qualifier. They are usually to get more players into the main tournament field, players who would not have paid an entry fee in the first place. If you let players play in qualifiers who were going to play in the main tournament anyway, it defeats the reason for the qualifier and you end up with less players in the main tournament. Most of the players who will win the qualifiers don't really have a chance to win the main tournament anyway, so the pros still benefit because of the pumped up prize fund.

Barbara
10-22-2004, 07:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>
Well, they're probably going to lose, that's what they're going to do when they draw them in the Pro event. But does this really strip them of their right to earn a spot to play in that pro tournament?

If I play in a qualifier that Efren is allowed to play in, and I won't beat Efren in either the qualifier OR the pro tournament, how does this somehow imply that I am not necessarily deserving of the spot? I don't see how you're getting from point A to point B here.<hr /></blockquote>

Thank you Steve, this is the input I'm looking to hear about. And I need to hear this reasoning for the events that are open so I relate this to the SPs and amateurs so they can formulate an opinion and give me their feedback.

Ross's asking about seeding of the top WPBA pros has given me an idea to ask the masses when they sign up, and according to who shows up in the Sweet 16, if they'll allow me to seed the players. But it does favor the top players to be seeded, and they should know that. I need to think about this.

Hey listen, I know you'll banter this around with Gina and she'll go to her pool playing friends, and then they'll go to their friends, and yada yada yada, tell her to let me know what her contingent says. But it doesn't mean I'll go with it. I need a lot of other input here, too.

I need some ideas to keep this Tour going! Thanks!!

Barbara

BLACKHEART
10-22-2004, 07:38 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gifRemember 2 things...One is that, if there is no new blood infused into the WPBA, interest will wain &amp; attendence as well as sponsorship, will suffer. Second... When you play baseball in the minor leagues, you are being groomed to play in the majors,BUT you will never play against these MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYERS, while you are trying to get there...JER

Barbara
10-22-2004, 08:11 PM
Popcorn,

The intent of ALL of my events is to be a Qualifier to a WPBA event. The specialty of the State Championship is that it is the only time you can win a Qualifier to the WPBA US Open Championships.

*** NOTE -- I MISSPOKE EARLIER AND SAID THAT THE STATE CHAMPOINSHIPS WERE THE ONLY WAY TO WIN A Q TO THE WPBA NATS - WRONG!!! - IT'S TO THE WPBA US OPEN GOING ON THIS WEEKEND!!! THE WPBA WANTS ALL THE QUALIFYING PLAYERS TO PLAY IN THIS EVENT FOR THE ANNOUNCEMENTS OF THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENTS***

I love to hold State Championship events that are open to the WPBA Pros - and all of the TPs, not just limited to lesser than the top 16 or 32 like some tours do. I realize that the purse money works out for a few hundred per person, less expenses, and I'm working on that. But regardless, these events are still Qualifiers, as the WPBA requires, along with the required $1000 added. So withstanding the RO's greens fees, the total prize fund usually is about $1900 with 1st place prize about $600 and 2nd about $450. Poor payouts for a weekend event, so I'M REALLY WORKING ON IT! But it does give some WPBA TP a paycheck for a weekend.

And okay, so Karen and Julie have dominated some of my events in the past, but really it was just only the SCs. This year Gerda Hofstatter won the NY event against Dawn Hopkins. Kim Shaw and Romana Dokovic were also there. Karen and Julie booked earlier. I love this competition on my Tour because it gives the "newbies" something to watch and what to inspire to be. It inspired me many moons ago.

And for those of us who have relagated ourselves to "dreaming" of winning a Q because of circumstances beyond our control, winning a rack or two against a WPBA player you see regularly on TV and saying to your friends, "Hey SHE racked for ME one time!!", is just like landshark77 said, PRICELESS!!!

Barbara~~~has had a few "PRICELESS" moments...

Barbara
10-22-2004, 08:18 PM
Yo Cheese,

Karen's not a lock and maybe instead of seeding (per Ross's post), maybe giving a game or two on the wire could be an evener.

Back many, many moons ago, Karen Corr was sent to the wrong side of the chart IN THE FIRST ROUND by "Delaware Donna Tidwell" in a hill-hill battle in NY State Champs, which Karen eventually won. Boy, it was a shark-fest on the one-loss side by Karen, too. She was pissed.

Barbara

Barbara
10-22-2004, 08:22 PM
JER,

I've always held the anaolgy that we RTs are like Triple A leagues to the Majors and you can't start lower, and have to play the Majors!!

Barbara~~~loves playing the Majors in the minors... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara
10-22-2004, 08:30 PM
But woody968,

I'm only talking about a couple of the many Qs I hold a year. Three of only six this year that the WPBA TPs were allowed to play in.

The question is really, what should an amateur/semi-pro player expect when they play for a Qualifier when the WPBA TPs are allowed to play? And why should the WPBA TPs be allowed in, anyway?!

Barbara
10-22-2004, 08:34 PM
Christy,

Give it up! Sorry you played in the "wrong tour" when those women were playing and get over it!! You had no chance against them anyway.

Barbara

cueball1950
10-22-2004, 08:41 PM
Hi Barb. I think you answered your own question. If it is not a state championship then the top tournung pro's should be excluded. As far as the tournaments being State Championships i believe you said that the WPBA has a rule that pro tourung players can play. So i feel that you have answered your own questions. now my own opinion, as a spectator, is different..i enjoy watching all the ladies play. when i went to Binghamton a couple of weeks ago to see you and carol and Dr D and the other ladies i also visited other friends there also. and the general consencus was that they all loved watching the top touring players play along with the semi players..................mike

Barbara
10-22-2004, 08:53 PM
Mike,

How could you not love watching Dawn Hopkins, Gerda Hofstatter, Karen Corr, Julie Kelly, Kim Shaw, and Romana Dokovic!! What a great tournament and tons of peoples watching!!

Plus, it was the coincindence of the WPBA Amateur Nationals in OK that drew Kelly Fisher and Val Finnie on the same weekend. And the NYC contingent was probably at the same event since my personal groupie, Nostroke, wasn't in Binghamton, either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Barbara~~~but wasn't lonely, had cueball1950... and Hubby!!!
woohooo!!

Chris Cass
10-22-2004, 10:24 PM
Hi Barbara,

I'm probably going on a limb here but I would say this. In the tourneys without pros allowed then, the first place winner wins the qualifiing spot.

In the pro allowed events, the non pro finishing the highest should get the qualifier. No spot of game but rewarded for getting that far. If they run into the pros early? Then, too bad and even then it's not really bad. I'd rather be knocked out by 2 pros off the bat then someone whos noone.

Regards,

C.C.~~no seading and I like the pros in all the events. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rich R.
10-23-2004, 04:40 AM
Barbara, I don't think you will be surprised, that I feel the more competition the better. From a spectators point of view, I like to see the best pool possible.
On the other hand, I am not the one getting knocked out of a qualifier.

What do you think about putting this point up to a vote by the membership of your tour?
Just a thought. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

MINISTRY
10-23-2004, 07:57 AM
I know there is a little more to this than what I think I'm reading, but...

Let me get this straight, if the non pros are saying:
"I don't want to play if she plays, cause I can't win."

Thats rediculous. You better get on a table and practice more then. I can't even begin to count how many tournaments I have played in and not won or even placed. I played in these tournaments for the competition and to use it as a learning experience.

I never once considered whining about the fact that I did not stand a chance to win.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is interesting that most (or all?) of those who said yes to pros playing, have never driven 5+ hours, spent 250.00-300.00 in expenses only to drawn Julie Kelly in the first or 2nd round, as I have done, no less than 3 times. <hr /></blockquote>

Sounds to me like you need to stay a little more local and practice a lot more if you are so concerned with the win. It is silly to think "It is not fair that I have to play her, cause she is better and I can't win."

We all know the Cincinatti Bengals will get their asses kicked on Monday night against the Denver Broncos, do you think they are crying about the fact they will probably lose, Hell No!! They are practicing harder than they ever have and are thinking to themselves "Maybe just maybe we can win if we practice hard and give it our best"

The following quote sums it for me, but I don't want to hear any crying when she plays in the PT and gets eleminated early.
[ QUOTE ]
In the pro allowed events, the non pro finishing the highest should get the qualifier. <hr /></blockquote>

IF the Q is so important, than eleminate the prize money and make the prize the Q. I highly doubt any pros would show up then, and the tournament would still be important to those concerned with the Q spot.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-23-2004, 08:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MINISTRY:</font><hr> I know there is a little more to this than what I think I'm reading, <hr /></blockquote>

You are correct.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MINISTRY:</font><hr>
...IF the Q is so important, than eleminate the prize money and make the prize the Q. I highly doubt any pros would show up then, and the tournament would still be important to those concerned with the Q spot. <hr /></blockquote>

Interesting food for thought. Or make the prize money smaller for the top 2 and pay deeper into the field.

woody_968
10-23-2004, 08:55 AM
I guess I misunderstood, I didnt realise you only let the TPs into a few of the events. I like them being in some of the events, just not all of them.

I commend you for all that you are trying to do for womens pool!

woody_968
10-23-2004, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Christy,

Give it up! Sorry you played in the "wrong tour" when those women were playing and get over it!! You had no chance against them anyway.

Barbara

<hr /></blockquote>

This has got to be one of the most disappointing responses I have ever read! You asked for some opinions and you got them, and then you come back with something like this?

Christy is no slouch on the pool table, she has worked hard on her game, won qualifiers, and supported womens pool when ever she could and in no way deserves to have that kind of response. She was just giving you a point of view like you had asked, and didnt say anything that a number of other posters hadnt said.

The "you had no chance" was totally uncalled for. If we are talking about the TP's how many women (or men) do have a good chance?

Barbara
10-23-2004, 09:15 AM
I'm sorry about that. And I do know Christy from years ago. She played in the tour when the TPs were allowed to play in all the events all the time, not like now. She could've gone to another tour. Why didn't she?

Barbara

woody_968
10-23-2004, 09:28 AM
Did the other tours have qualifiers? Why she played any certain event is something Christy would have to answer.

landshark77
10-23-2004, 09:41 AM
OK Ross, I am understanding what you are saying now. That would be great if say two Pros showed, but if you have a field of 18-20 girls and more than two Pros showed up even the seeding would be something people could complain about. Evenually two of the Pros will have to play each other and pretty early on because of the bracket lay out with such a low number of particicpants. Thus sending a Pro to the one loss side. I do like your idea though. All in all people complain when they are un-happy. If one of the girls did knock Karen out do you think they would be complaining about having to play Karen or would they more likely be saying, yeah, I knocked Karen Corr outta the race, I'm THAT good?

facets58
10-24-2004, 01:06 AM
This is an easy one for me.

Qualifiers are only for players qualifying to get into the Pros.

A pro can only cause problems for the field trying to qualify, and take a bulk of the prizefund.

You don't see a Pro golfer competing in qualifying tournaments if they are already invited to the Pro event...it doesn't make sense.

To me if I was a Pro and I beat one player or knocked her out of the tournament that was a qualifier, I would feel horrible.

There are enough obsticles in women's pool, a qualifier shouldn't have to travel, pay for hotel, entry fee and then have to match up against one of the top 39 players on tour (who are already GUARANTEED entry). There are currently 39 touring pros on tour.

When my players gained their touring pro status they became ineligible to play in any of my events IMMEDIATELY. My wife included.

Stacy Hurst
Stefanie Boch
Melissa Herndon
Ikumi Ushiroda
Cassie Anderson

They miss playing in my events, but they all realise that they have moved past that level and needed to make room for the next group of players.

It's a cycle...you do well, you move up, you move on.

I understand that women's pool needs more money...qualifiers is not the place the pros should be looking to get easy money. These tournaments are a breeding ground for the next group of players.

Mike--

CarolNYC
10-24-2004, 05:03 AM
Hey Barb,
I got a different view on this subject!
When I started in 99', it was Karen winning the qualifiers-to me, I'd rather play a pro for a 50 entry, possibly get my butt kicked, but at least I'd get the experience and I'd know what I'd have to do to bring my game to such a level- so playing with the pros in my eyes, the choice is:
Play the pros for 50
or
play the pros for 500
It gives you the reality of what your in for when you get into a pro event!

Carol~like I said before, the State championships are events all regional girls should play!!!!!!!

Deeman2
10-24-2004, 05:58 AM
Barbara,

Sincerely, this thread shows how difficult even one little phase of putting on tournament can be. Most of us don't appreciate these difficult decisions and maybe some problems just don't have a good solution. I have heard complaints, in the past, over this same issue and thought of how easily it could be solved. I was so dead wrong. It seems you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

It seems difficult for a room owner to recoup even for a $1,000 added event as most of us don't realize how much business it takes to make this up. I am sure even this is not an easy sell sometimes. I am glad the women have someone like you that is willing to do all this. I am sure glad I don't have to do all that and still have people complain about it. It's obvious you'll always have the players sigh when Karen comes through the door and room owners smile. I just don't see how that can change unless, through some magic, more money appears for you to work with. Good luck. I wish I was smart enough to help.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Deeman

TAFKaENIGMA
10-24-2004, 06:39 AM
The Artist Formerly Known as ENIGMA would rather play the qualifier for 50, and WIN the 500 Pro entry fee.
That way you don't have to cough up 500 yourself.

CarolNYC
10-24-2004, 07:27 AM
Hi There,
Pros cannot win the 500 qualifying entry-they can win the cash only-from my own experience, it is very rarely that a pro is knocked into a losers bracket on a regional tour and I have seen MANY players place up to 7/8th place an win the qualifying spot because the pros already have it!

[ QUOTE ]
That way you don't have to cough up 500 yourself.
<hr /></blockquote>

AH, and thats where SPONSORS come in!
Have a nice day!
CArol /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Barbara
10-24-2004, 08:23 AM
Mike,

You have a good point there. But when I put on a State Championsip event, I have to open it up to the Pros, and it is a Qualifier for the WPBA Nats.

But I really do like your analogy with the golf Qs.

Thanks! And it's good to hear from you again!!

Barbara

1on1pooltourneys
10-24-2004, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Christy,

Give it up! Sorry you played in the "wrong tour" when those women were playing and get over it!! You had no chance against them anyway.

Barbara

<hr /></blockquote>



I think that is the most ridiculous response I have ever seen. You are asking people their opinion on a subject and then lash out on somebody who gives an opinion. You have to be a very narrow minded person to think that the women who are out there trying to make it on the tour want the pro's to play in those tournaments. You obviously don't play or can't play at all. I think that it is a very poor statement to make from somebody who is promoting herself as a tournament director. You probably couldn't direct traffic much less a tournament. And if Chrisy9 doesn't have a chance then how come she was on the pro tour for a short time? Why is it that she finished 9-12th in the fist pro tournament she ever played in? I think that you should put your tail between your legs and hide under the bed, unless you like self-humiliation.

Barbara
10-24-2004, 11:58 AM
I'm sorry, I had a pm between woody and me and I was upset that Christy would even bring up such a negative situation that cannot be confirmed or denied since it would have happened so long ago. She was wrong to have put that out on this forum and that's what pissed me off.

She knew what she was getting into when she played when Candi was TC. Candi Rego was a TP herself and if she was going to be at these events, by golly she was going to play, too! She opened all the events up to Karen, Julie, Dawn Hopkins, Fran Crimi, and even Monica and Helena would come up occasionally. It was pretty discouraging for a couple of years for us SPs and amateurs when Karen just totally dominated the tour and nobody had a chance against her and most of the other TPs that played. Christy had a better chance than most and managed to win a few Qs in these events. We constantly questioned Candi why the TPs should be playing. After a while I chose to take this situation and turn it into something positive. If I wasn't going to win a Q, then playing against these women for $50 wasn't too bad.

And at the same time, there were other tours that didn't allow the TPs to play and she could've gone to them instead of NEWT. She could've gone and played in those, but she didn't.

Barbara

RichardCranium
10-24-2004, 12:39 PM
Ok....here goes..I will refer to what PGA does and you can take it from there........

First.....Right off the bat.....If you want to play in the US Open....(open to anyone that holds a 1.5 hdcp with $100.00) You can pick one of MANY local qualifiers....ANY "non exempt" Touring Pro can pick the same event.....So you may have to play against a Touring Pro for mabey 2 or three spots...You can travel to another state to try and qualify, but that is up to you...(many in Arizona actually do that because the fields are softer in say Montana...but there are less slots).....Now that is just for that one event....

Every week the PGA tour has a "Monday Qualifier" Only Touring Pros that are not already in the field are allowed to play....But for EVERY weekly PGA tour event (NON MAJOR) there is a Monday Qualifier...I think that is what WPBA needs to do....If they want to get the strongest fields as they can....have a Monday Qualifier...The good players WILL show up to earn thier spot...and the BEST of those will get in....I am not knocking the players that are on the Womens tour, but I see players that get a qualifying spot by playing in a very weak field, and GOOD players are missing out because they are going up against stiffer comp. to get in.....ELIMINATE these regional auto qualifiers...Keep the Regional Tours....YES absolutly....But don't give weak players a free ride into the Main Event...If they want to travel to the event and put up there Entry Fee for the Monday Qualifier on there own, let them....The GOOD players will.....You still can have Regional Events that offer a Monday Qualifier Sponsorship...(Entry +Hotel) or something like that, but current "EXEMPT" pros should not be able to play in those events..."NON EXEMPT" should be allowed to play...

Now the PGA has "Developmental Tours"....NationWide....Hooters....GoldenState...etc...Y ou will NEVER see a "Exempt" pro on those tours...If a PGA Tour player loses his exemption to the PGA...They are then allowed to go back to the "Developmental" tour...but once you get your PGA card...you are done on those tours...(EVEN if you are makeing NO MONEY On the PGA tour)....believe me it happens...(you just don't hear about it much)....Also a little known fact, on some of the Developmental Tours, you only have x amount of years to play on it...(You are not allowed to make a living on the smaller developmental tours. You have to try and move up to at least the Nationwide...(You can stay there as long as you like)

The WPBA needs to change the REGIONAL tour jargon to "DEVELOPMENTAL" ......That is what it should be...and there are ways to restructure the "qualifiers"...Instead of having 1 Event be the qualifier....make it the whole season...1st through 10 gets Monday Qualifier Spots...Have a nomination process at the end of the year by the players to nominate a player for a qualifier...Have the sponsors nominate a qualifer....I am sure there are other ways..I would just need to actually think about this for a little while....

Exempt pros should NOT be allowed to play in the developmental tours (If the event is for rankings, points, are anything to do with a Monday Qualifier Spot)...However in order for the girls to test thier skills on the local level with out having to travel to every spot the WPBA is playing...Have Regional events that are OPEN to all players...or State Championships...whatever you want to call it....BUT those events should NOT count for year end standings, points, or anything to do with a Monday Qualifier spot....

I really think the Women are alot closer than they think in getting the Womens tour to take off and work for them...They just need to get these Developmental Tours around the country to organize and make sure that the BEST new talent is getting sent up....Not just a LUCKY winner of one 16 player event.....

The MEN could use alot of the same....

woody_968
10-24-2004, 03:06 PM
Very good post Richard, I also compared it to the PGA. One big difference though when talking about some of golfs qualifiers. In the rare cases where people trying to qualify are playing in an event with pros that hold cards, if the pro goes out and shoots a 62 it doesnt automatically nock a player out. It takes up a spot, yes, but if an amature plays better than the rest of the field he can still gain a spot in the big tourney.

In a perfect world, and if time permited, the Womens qualifiers could be played in a round robin format. Then truely the best amature would advance into the tour, and everyone one of them would have the chance to play some of the top women already on tour. The pros are still gonna take the cash as they do now, but everyone one of the amatures would have to play them and it would eleminate the luck of the draw factor.

Are the tournaments ever small enough that the round robin format could be used?

pooltchr
10-24-2004, 03:34 PM
Barbara,
RichardCranium made some very good points worth consideration for some long term changes to the process. For the short term simple solution, I would say that a qualifier should be open to anyone NOT ALREADY QUALIFIED. Let the contenders fight it out among themselves for the opportunity to get into the "main event".
I really like JER's analogy to baseball...the minor leagues are where you develop players to move up to the majors. Once you move up, then you have your chance to play against the best, and you EARNED that right by showing you are the "best of the rest". The top pro's can change the end result of the tournament just by being there and since nobody plays every other player in the event, the luck of the draw can have a big impact on who advances how far. Qualifiers shouldn't have that much of a luck factor involved.
JMHO
Steve

Barbara
10-24-2004, 04:09 PM
Steve,

I agree completely with so many opinions about just letting the SPs/amateurs playing for the Q. I always have, especially after all those years I played with all those Pros and being all those events I tried to win a Q to get to the WPBA.

But I remain steadfast about the State Championships that even though they're a Q to the WPBA Nats, the Pros should be allowed to play. But I also have one other event that's set up by Tiffany Nelson and since she's the Room Manager and gets the dough worked out, her RO wants to see her play and I think that's okay. No Room Owner has expressed his/her's opinion on this thread, so I have to say that their money gets spent the way they want to spend it.

In the long run, I do discourage the TPs from being in the events, but I have to let the RO's have their say. It's their money and to put on a very basic event costs them $1100. Yikes!!

But thanks for your input and I'm re-reading RC's input, too.

Barbara

Ken_4fun
10-24-2004, 06:08 PM
Barbara -

You're a real class act. Ask for input then slam someone when they give honest response. I, too, know Christy9. She is class act, gracious winner or loser. You on the other hand, are a loser and certainly not gracious.

In response to your original question.

Seed no one. I certainly have got some bad draws in tournaments but I have never got to jump to head of the line.

If they are already in the field, why would these TP want to play in a qualifier unless they want to alter the results. Does anyone think it is that tough to get a game, a TP needs to play in a qualifier to "keep sharp"?

I went to Philly to Allen Hopkins event where the stands were empty for the mens event, who played great, and then the women played to full stands and played,,,,, well okay.

Enough of my ramblings.....

ken

TAFKaENIGMA
10-24-2004, 06:22 PM
But if you don't win the spot, and you still get invited for instance and you don't have a sponsor.
WHO pays for that?

Christy9
10-24-2004, 07:55 PM
So sorry to upset you, but when you start a thread requesting different opinions about the subject at hand, what do you expect? When I replied to your post, I was not whining or complaining. I simply wanted other people to realize what can happen when a touring pro is allowed to participate in a regional event. As I stated in my original post, I see both sides of the coin. I know that most room owners want the tps participation to bring in more spectators and to generate interest. I have a great amount of respect for the room owners that put up the added money to allow the qualifiers to take place in their room. I also understand that the touring pros like to gear for the "main event". I was not complaining about playing the top pros. I realize to become a great player you have to be capable of beating the top women players. The situation that I discussed in my original post was not intended to be disrespectful toward the NEWT or any of the pro women players. I was simply discussing a situation that occurred. You are right Barbara, I can't prove what happened. But it's not a secret. Everyone at the tournament(spectators included) was aware of what was going on. If you choose to disregard the obvious, that's your business.

What bothers me is the way you waged a personal attack against me. There were others that responded the way I did, yet you were very cordial to them. Maybe you were embarassed I brought up that particular incident. But when cheating is involved, I feel it is every participant's right to speak his/her mind. Reality is seldom pretty.

It is a shame that you told me to "get over it. You didn't have a chance anyway". That was a very unprofessional remark for you to make as a regional tour coordinator. I never believed that I was a top player, but I enjoyed competing and had aspirations of becoming a touring pro. Although I am currently pursuing a different career, pool is a game that I am very passionate about and I will always enjoy playing the game.

I chose to compete on the NEWT for several reasons. During that period of time, many qualifiers were being held in your area of the country. Unfortunately, there were very few events close to where I live. At the time, there were very many good players on your tour(other than the tps) that played great! I played on great equipment, competed against very nice people, and always felt welcome.

Your attitude toward me is very hurtful. For 2 years I was an avid supporter of the NEWT. I never disillusioned myself that I was good enough to win every qualifier and I never complained one single time about the tps playing the regional events. I felt it was a good experience. Until now, I never spoke of the situation that occured with anyone other than family or close friends, although it did leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I realize that being the tour coordinator is hard work and I know that you have to listen to people complain about many different things. I have always had an enormous amount of respect for anyone that devotes their own time and effort into running tours, tourneys, leagues, etc. I commend you for that. If you devote the same amount of effort into showing others respect, then you're on to something.

Thanks to Woody, Oneononepooltourney, and kenforfun for sticking up for me regarding this issue. Thanks guys!!

Sincerely,
Christy

1on1pooltourneys
10-24-2004, 08:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Christy9:</font><hr>
Thanks to Woody, Oneononepooltourney, and kenforfun for sticking up for me regarding this issue. Thanks guys!!

Sincerely,
Christy <hr /></blockquote>

You are completely welcome. I also found out some more credentials about your pool career that Barbara may not be aware of. I think I mentioned that you finished 9-12th in your first professional tournament. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif You also were runner up in the WPBA Amateur Nationals in 2000? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Let's see...hmmm... Illinois and Ohio State CHAMPION. Binghamton NY qualifier win, Laurel MD qualifier win, Hagerstown MD qualifier win, and I know you were ranked high on the particular tour that is being discussed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Not bad for someone who should "give it up" and "never had a chance anyway".

Good luck in further pursuits, and I'm sure you understand that people of jealous and envy have to put others down in order to make themselves feel better.

Good post and it shows your character and I think that everyone who read this thread since it started definitely would have to agree with it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

JDB
10-24-2004, 08:34 PM
Nice post Christy... I think your post shows that you have a lot of class...

I don't know you, but good luck in your endeavors... I think you made a great post here and it shows you have a lot of class and professionalism...

CarolNYC
10-25-2004, 03:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]
and you still get invited for instance and you don't have a sponsor.
WHO pays for that?
<hr /></blockquote>

Thats the sad part!The invitee would have to pay it!
There are so many terrific players out there who just can't afford the monies,thats why promoting yourself and getting a sponsor is so important!
(Unless, you have a wealthy spouse /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gifand live a very comfortable life!)
I'd also like to mention something else-many are saying "no pros"-I have seen SO MANY girls who have never played against a pro on a regional tour come into their first pro event rattling unbelievably-now,had they had the experience of playing pros on their regional tour, I think their shakes would not be there-regional tours are extremely different from professional tours-many regional tour billiard halls do not have nice equipment ,tables with holes in cloth,dead rails,or they're a sports bar which just happens to have an important sports game going on and everyone is screaming etc. where as, pro tours are brand new equipment,people with respect, which to me is lovely!
I recall going to an event in Virginia that was the biggest dive I've ever seen-
I don't know, to me, I feel honored to get on the tables with the professionals,but to each there own!

Take care!
Carol

RichardCranium
10-25-2004, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Very good post Richard, I also compared it to the PGA. One big difference though when talking about some of golfs qualifiers. In the rare cases where people trying to qualify are playing in an event with pros that hold cards, if the pro goes out and shoots a 62 it doesnt automatically nock a player out. It takes up a spot, yes, but if an amature plays better than the rest of the field he can still gain a spot in the big tourney.

In a perfect world, and if time permited, the Womens qualifiers could be played in a round robin format. Then truely the best amature would advance into the tour, and everyone one of them would have the chance to play some of the top women already on tour. The pros are still gonna take the cash as they do now, but everyone one of the amatures would have to play them and it would eleminate the luck of the draw factor.

Are the tournaments ever small enough that the round robin format could be used? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes ameatures can put up money for a Monday qualifier spot and play in a PGA event....Phil Mickelson is a prime example...He was not handed his tour card on a silver spoon...He qualified and played as an "ameature" in the Tucson open years ago and won the Tournament...He recieved NO MONEY...for the win, but with that win he earned future exemptions to PGA Tour Events...From there he earned enough to keep his card.

There is nothing wrong in my opinion in copying a model that works (PGA) and using it for the WPBA....The only problem with the PGA is the "Sponsors Exemption" That can be a real grey area if your not careful....The PGA runs into problems with that from time to time....

I just thought about another idea that I think can help the "Regional....(Developmental)...Tours......I know there are many of them across the country....and I would imagine that most of the Women that play on these tours also go to Vegas every year for the BCA "ameature" events...(some qualify for the pro event)..but most are there....."IF" someone could spearhead this idea I think it might work....Get all the tours together, talk to the BCA &amp; WPBA and ask for some "SPONSORSHIP" on this....(present this to them as the future stars of the WPBA).....Each tours keeps a points standings or money standings that ranks them......Set the seasons so that they all match each other..Have it so that the top "so many" from each tour qualify for a "Regional" championship....To be held on the "same" tables as the pros....The winner of the tournament gets a seasons exemption to the WPBA.......or mabey the top two or three....

(similar to the NATIONWIDE tour in golf)..If you finish in the top 15 on the Nationwide tour (The tour is sponsored by the PGA) you earn a one year exemption on the PGA Tour...If you win three events in one season, you get an automatic graduation to the PGA tour....)

It seems like since the tables are already there, and the pros are not playing on them all the time....there would be time for another tournament...(and they could even sell tickets at 1/2 price or something....

I think that there is enough unknown talent out there that would love to have the chance to play on the same equipment as the pros........I think this would actually expand the Regional tours accross the country....Once the Bar Box BCA women get wind of the event...I am sure some will convert to the big table and join these tours for the chance to play on the top floor....I know I would if there was a mens Developmental tour....

Anyway....just a crazy idea....RC

Barbara
10-25-2004, 10:58 AM
RC,

I'm not following you entirely because I'm not familiar with how golf does its thing with qualifying and I don't know what "exemption" and "non-exemption" or how you even go about getting your pro card in the PGA happens. And what's a "Monday Qualifier"?

But I can say this, all of the RTs award points for finishing the same as in the WPBA, maybe with the exception of the CAT tour, LOL! But some tours hold more events than others. And some tours exclude TPs altogether while others don't, so we're mixing apples and oranges point finishes.

And there used to be a Regional Tour Championship. Mike Hurst started it out on the West Coast a few years back. The top 7-8 Semi-Pros/Amatuers were invited and the grand prize was the winner of the event gets a free ride into all the WPBA events for the following year. The WPBA took it over the year after Mike started it. But now the problem is we don't have a sponsor or a venue for this event.

Barbara

RichardCranium
10-25-2004, 11:59 AM
"exempt" means qualified for the event...(example: Tiger Woods is "exempt" for any PGA event he wants to play in...He does not have to qualify) "Non exempt" means you have to qualify...(I would be an example of a "NON Exempt" pro) I can't just sign up for a PGA event..I would have to qualify for the event..."Monday Qualifer"...PGA events are most always Thursday - Sunday....The prior MONDAY of the event, there is an OPEN Qualifier. Anyone including Ameatures can sign up for the one round qualifier...(usually only 1 or 2 players qualifies for the event and you will probably have to shoot a GREAT score)..."Non Exempt" pros are allowed to play...and there are many that actually follow the tour and try and Monday Qualify...Same for the Nationwide Events...Each Event has a Monday qualifier....

That is why I made the comment that the "Regional" Tours "Directors" need to get together (conference call, email etc) with the WPBA and get "organized".....Perhaps the tour that lets the TP play need to "NOT" be a "Regional" tour for exemption purposes...They could just be NON WPBA Sanctioned PRO events....The idea is to get all the "developmental" tours toghether so that the "future stars" can get recognized and moved up to the WPBA....

Get with the WPBA and ask them to move the event to VEGAS (The Venue is already there)...Get with the BCA and see if they are willing to help sponsor the event (they would be able to sell more tickets to the upstairs Venue that is already there)

If there are say 8 "Developmental Tours" across the country... Each Tour could send their top 4... (perhaps there could be some adjustments to the number based on how many players there are on each Tour...(Like New York would Get 8 while a much smaller Tour would only get 2) Those numbers could get adjusted each year based on how each Regional Tour grows.... but select the top 32 Throughout the country to play in a "Regional Championship" in Las Vegas on the same tables that the PROS are playing on.....
The top two get a 1 year exemption on tour.

I personally think you should eliminate the "auto qualifier" tournament...I have seen some very weak players make it through that way, And I would personally be dissapointed...for example if I paid money for a WPBA event drove all the way to San Diego (400 miles) the nearest event to where I live....to watch someone that can't make three balls in a row....but skated through some "regional qualifier" on a lucky draw....

If each stop (For example) San Diego...had a (Monday Qualifier)....The Unknown GOOD players will show up for a chance to qualify...They may have to scratch and save to follow the Tour from Venue to Venue, or select the ones that they can travel to, but I think the WPBA would end up with stronger fields overall, and there will eventually be more players that can beat Karen and that other one...(I think her name starts with an A)

The Regional Tours can work hand in hand with the WPBA and help develop these new players, but You all better get on the same page soon in my opinion....Its getting old watching the same two players on TV....

Barbara...I think you have a bigger hand in this than you think....People like you that run these tours are developing the "future" of the "WPBA" not just running some local tour for personal enjoyment....I think you and others like you need to voice this to the WPBA and let them know.

I know there is not alot of money in this right now but...If people like you can spearhead some of the changes...I think the Regional Tours will get better as well as the WPBA.

The seeds are planted....They just need to be watered

BLACKHEART
10-25-2004, 01:12 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gifChristy, I don't know either you or Barbara,but I think that Barbara DID ask for OPINIONS &amp; I thought you did a good job of explaining your OPINION, without being at all personal. Thanks for your explanation. I think you have shown quit a lot of poise after some of Barbara's subsequent post, which became personal. I have always felt that Barbara was 1st rate &amp; very informative on any post she has made. Hopefully we can take a deep breath &amp; go on to another thread. THANKS GIRLS FOR SOME INFO THAT I DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE...JER

Christy9
10-25-2004, 01:32 PM
I agree with you blackheart. I believe it is time to move on! Thanks for your kind words.

Christy

Barbara
10-25-2004, 01:43 PM
jer,

I completely read her post the wrong way and my response was totally inappropriate and definitely out of line. I should have thought about it instead of responding to it right away.

I was wrong and I'm sorry and I deeply apologize to Christy and her friends.

Barbara

Barbara
10-25-2004, 02:24 PM
RC,

I'm not sure whether I'm really following this see if it could work for the RTs.

First of all, to hold a Qualifier the week of the WPBA event would mean that the participating girls would have to spend a whole week at that venue. Most of the girls have to work to support themselves and I doubt they would be able to take this amount of time off from their jobs.

Secondly, the WPBA office reserves about 12 spots in each of their events for the Qualifer winners. I don't think you knew this. So how would you fill those 12 spots with one event?

And lastly, I'm not too sure I want to get rid of my State Championship events. I'm wrong (again!) about the Qs - the Q winners go to the WPBA us Open, no the Nationals. For some reason I always confuse those two events. And the only way to win an US Open Q is to win it at a State Championship event. These events are my diamonds! They draw the best players as opposed to my closed events. In NY alone I had 6 of the top 23 Touring Pros!

But I do wish they would resurrect the Regional Tour Championshhips.

Barbara

Tom_In_Cincy
10-25-2004, 03:06 PM
Barbara,
I haven't read all the posts, but I am sure there are some good replies.
My opinion (for what it is worth) about tournament restrictions (TPs or NO TPs) is rather simple. I want to be able to have a chance to play the best available players.

I also want to see (as a spectator) the best available players.

I also have an opinion about Tournament Directors being asked by the players, "Why do you allow that player in this tournament?"

IMO. If the entry fee is paid and the player agrees to the Tournament format and rules, no one should be told "Sorry, you can't play, you're too good"

Otherwise you might as well call it a "B" players only tournament. NO "A", Roadies, or Semi-Pros. Then you have to have a list of these players that everyone will accept. And what about the 'B' players that become 'too good' to play in these tournaments? Who makes that decision?

Tough place Barbara, but from what I know about you, I am positive you will make the correct decision and that it will be accepted.

SPetty
10-25-2004, 04:00 PM
I'm relatively new to the sport, so I still remember when I first heard that pro players played in the amateur tournaments, and I remember being surprised that it was allowed and O.K. In all other sports, there are amateurs and professionals. The regional tours are the amateurs. The pros have their own tour.

When I learned about how the Hunter tour does it - no pros allowed - I wasn't at all surprised, and thought it was the norm. I then figured I misunderstood about the pros playing in the regional tours, and maybe it was that they played there before they became pros.

I later learned that there isn't even a "right way" or "consistent way" that the amateur events are being managed. The JPNEWT is seemingly run by a single person and allows pros to play. The Hunter tour is run by a board of five people and doesn't allow pros to play. The JPNEWT uses the pros to pull in spectators so the room owner can make money. The Hunter tour has Wes Hunter as a sponsor who donates a cue to the room owner for raffle money making opportunities.

I don't think of the amateur tours as a spectator event. There are way too many women playing to be able to handle spectators. At least it's that way at the Hunter stops, where there are normally 35-50 women playing. I like the analogy of the minor leagues and the major leagues. You play in the minor leagues until you're ready for the major leagues. Major league players can't play in the minors unless they aren't good enough for the majors any more.

Not everyone plays in the amateur regional tours for the chance at a qualifier, especially since so few actually get to move up. There are many of us that know we're not good enough to come close to winning, but we want to play the caliber of women who are generally better than the women in our local leagues. The regional tours tend to attract people who can actually play pool. Many of them are better than most of the men in our local leagues, but not nearly so good as to break into the pro ranks.

It is difficult enough to break into the pro ranks. More difficult than it should be, IMO, but I don't have an answer. As another poster pointed out, you pretty much have to have money in order to participate in multiple tours all over the country in order to join the pros. Unless, of course, you are an extraordinary talent like Karen Corr.

You can't play with the pros unless you win a qualifier. You can't stay in the pros unless you get enough points. You can't get enough points unless you win enough qualifiers. That's a godawful lot of tournament WINS (or highest finishes if you're playing pros) you have to do just to break into the ranks of the pros. That's tough. Most of the pros don't have any recent WINS once they're in the pros. It's like we're making it more difficult for the amateurs than the pros.

The pros have their own events to play in, and the women pros can play in the mens tours if they need additional competition. I think it's a little silly for professional players to even want to play with amateurs, and can't imagine that they're doing it for any other reason than the small cash prize.

I'll stop talking now. Lots of rambling, little coherence. Just the thoughts that you asked for.

Steve Lipsky
10-25-2004, 04:59 PM
I've been reading this thread with great interest. Some people on this board, who I have more respect for than I can put into words, have expressed opinions on this subject so foreign to my own that it's been a tough thread to read. But, because of the esteem in which I hold these people, I must explore the truth that this is not a black-and-white matter, as much as it seems so to me.

Here is my take on the subject. The idea that it is worth paying $50 to play with a pro is definitely valid. However, these are qualifiers. There are plenty of places to play with a pro for about the same entry fee. Any Tri-State Open or Joss tour in the northeast. The Viking tour, the Florida tour, etc. They're all there. You probably won't be playing a woman pro, but so what? You'll get the chance to play a match with someone who doesn't miss.

To claim that the only place to do this is the JPNEWT tour is ridiculous. It's simply not true. But here's the one thing that sets the regional women's tours apart - they are the only venues to win WPBA qualifying spots.

There is something inherently strange (to me) about these top women playing in the non-state championship events. It would be like me playing in a B-tournament due to some loophole in the ranking system. These women are beating up on their fellow players for small prize funds. If they want to truly compete, they should only be entering tournaments where they'll be playing against shooters of similar talent. Namely, pro women's events and regional men's events. They can play in the regional women's State Championships for the added pride that comes with winning one of those; what pride is there in winning a $400 tournament against girls that can't possibly compete with them?

Add to this that they are mucking up the draw, and you've got a situation that just seems wrong to me. I would love to get the chance to play with Efren, and would never take myself out of a tournament if I found out he was coming. Except, of course, if the tournament were a qualifier. At that point, I'd have to question his eligibility to play. If I draw him, my chances to get the spot are significantly reduced. I'm flipping a coin for all my chips, as it were.

Lastly, that example isn't even as dramatic as the women's situation. Efren won't always beat the top shortstops from the area. Karen is going to win virtually every match she plays against the non-TPs. I am not sure this point is being understood by everyone in this thread. It's not, "Well, if I play well, and she doesn't, I can win." It's "Well, if I play well, and she doesn't, maybe I'll only lose 7-4." She is going to send every amateur player to the left side of the board. (How many matches has she lost, over the years, to the amateurs? 3? 5?) I cannot understand how this makes sense. You are putting these girls in a situation where their chances of getting that spot are much more tied, statistically, to them drawing Karen than them playing well.

I respect all of the dissenters' opinions on this. And I may very well be wrong on this, but if I am, I haven't read anything yet convincing me of it. I guess it's not a black-and-white issue, judging by the responses, but... I still haven't been shown where the gray area lies.

- Steve

RichardCranium
10-25-2004, 05:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> RC,

I'm not sure whether I'm really following this see if it could work for the RTs.

First of all, to hold a Qualifier the week of the WPBA event would mean that the participating girls would have to spend a whole week at that venue. Most of the girls have to work to support themselves and I doubt they would be able to take this amount of time off from their jobs.

Secondly, the WPBA office reserves about 12 spots in each of their events for the Qualifer winners. I don't think you knew this. So how would you fill those 12 spots with one event?

And lastly, I'm not too sure I want to get rid of my State Championship events. I'm wrong (again!) about the Qs - the Q winners go to the WPBA us Open, no the Nationals. For some reason I always confuse those two events. And the only way to win an US Open Q is to win it at a State Championship event. These events are my diamonds! They draw the best players as opposed to my closed events. In NY alone I had 6 of the top 23 Touring Pros!

But I do wish they would resurrect the Regional Tour Championshhips.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

Ok please don't take this the wrong way...and I know that all these girls have a "dream" to play in a Pro Tour Event...BUT....In my opinion...The GOOD players that have a shot (or at least think they do) will find a way to make it to the Venue...If the personal job is more important to them that is fine I have no problem with that..But the women that REALLY want to make it on the tour...will practice first locally and then find a way through sponsorship etc. to go to the qualifiers...The Karen Korrs, The J. Berretas The Angel Paglias...The others will take jobs somewhere and if they are serious they will work on thier game....I personally don't want to see the "lucky" ameature play in a Pro Event...That would be like me playing in a Pro Golf Event...I am a Golf Professional and a scratch golfer, but my game is no where near PGA TOUR material...Those guys out there are freaks of nature, but that is what the public wants to see....Thats what sells tickets.......And they would only spend the whole week there if they qualify....The rest go home....I don't know when the tournaments usually start, but the qualifier could be the day before the main event...

No I did not know that they had 12 spots...That is way to many in my opinion...5 max...

The Regional tours could still help out with sponsorships to the events..(Qualifier Entry, Hotel Money, Travel Money, Temp Worker for thier job...(JK),,)

All I am saying is that the process needs to be tweaked so that the BEST unkown talent is getting into these events....not the lucky draw winner that goes two and a BBQ in the main event....

State Championship...by all means DO NOT stop haveing those events...and...encourage the pros to play in them...Don't stop a good thing...BUT...throw out the WPBA qualifer spot and add the money to the prize fund.....This is where the "ameatures" should get their chance to play against the pros....NOT on the PRO Tour....

You would never see me trying to play in a Camel Event or USPA Event (or whatever the men call thier tour these days) I am not good enough yet to compete, and I have not earned my spot to play in front of ticket paying customers.....However...If I find the opportunity to play in a Local Open Event that has PRO players in it...I am going to play and I hope I get to play against one....I have played against some of the PRO players and enjoyed the heck out of the match...I actually led in a match against Santos Sambajon in San Diego....(until he strung 4 racks on me in a row) ......So don't stop the OPEN events....(just eliminate the qualifer spot...it is not fair and speculation is it can lead to bad ethics that can hurt an otherwise excellent image)

Yes bring back the Regional Championship....That can fill 6 of those 12 spots right there.....The top six in the Regional Championship in Vegas gets one year exemptions..

I can already see the Advertising, Headlines, and 6 very happy girls that are in a perfect position to pick up a sponsor or two to help them throughout the next year...and perhaps even some sidebar filler clips in between the TV matches on ESPN.....

Granted this won't happen overnight, but a post here, an email here, a phone call or two...mabey a meeting between The Regional Tour Directors, WPBA, BCA, and ESPN....Things can happen.....

Who on the board knows Donald Trump....Lets get him on the line...he needs to be a sponsor... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Barbara
10-25-2004, 07:13 PM
Steve,

As always, you make a valid point with your Efren Reyes example playing in one of your Qualifiers. All the other persons responding to the "No Pros" side has done equally well. I'm still trying to get through the Golf stuff.

But the history of NEWT begins with it being founded by Dawn, then Meurin, now Hopkins. She wanted to find a venue that the fledgling WPBA players could play in on the side to make some extra dough when the Joss Tour and Viking Tour were non-existent. And what extracurricular activities do the WPBA TPs have to play in to supplement their income? Even today, Tiffany Nelson sets up a great event at Prime Time Billiards for us, but requests that it's open so she and the local TPs can play. If I deny this request, I would probably lose this venue. And it's a GREAT ROOM and I would hate to lose it!! Plus, what venues are really there for TPs like her and Kim Shaw and Dawn Hopkins to make some extra cash on in the side? Being a TP higher than the Sweet Sixteen has got to be brutal. What events would they expect to pay out some cash to support them?

CarolNYC brought out a good point about playing against a TP just for the experience. But getting over the jitters is a personal thing about how you do it.

Like I said, I'd hate to close my events to the TPs because it was founded by one and run by another one and I feel an obligation to hold at least a few events to the women that inspire me.

It's like that Visa card commercial, when I win a game against a TP and they're racking for me, IT'S PRICELESS!!!

Barbara

Barbara
10-25-2004, 07:30 PM
RC,

Filling 12 spots for Q winners is the way the WPBA office handles it.

I'm not taking your post in the wrong way, I appreciate the info and suggestions. Please know that I took Christy's post the wrong way and responded to it in the worst way and couldn't get back to delete it or edited it. She has a very valid point and situation.

I'll probably have to sit down and come up with a questionaire to my tour members. But I think with a little hindsight, it's a good thing to play with the Pros, even if your goal is to win the Q. At least if you lose to one, you get your name published somewhere. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Barbara

woody_968
10-25-2004, 09:27 PM
Barbara, IMO I think you hit the nail on the head when you said keeping it open for them in SOME of the events. Having the women know in advance where the pros can play (you may already do this) but having a good amount of the tournaments for just the amatures.

CarolNYC
10-26-2004, 03:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
And there used to be a Regional Tour Championship. Mike Hurst started it out on the West Coast a few years back. The top 7-8 Semi-Pros/Amatuers were invited and the grand prize was the winner of the event gets a free ride into all the WPBA events for the following year <hr /></blockquote>

That was back in 2001-Ikumi won that!

Then there was another one held in Marietta,Georgia ,I think ,in 2002. Hsin won that!

Im really not understanding your dilemma-many girls play on the regionals for the money-some do not even want to become TP's because of the pros and cons of it-alot of nonpros made there monies from playing regional events ,with no intention of going pro,cause once a pro,always a pro and there lies the fact that they can no longer play regional events except for State Championships-now, take for instance the NJ State-how many woman showed up? It may have been because of the field being strong or because of no chance in taking the top prize money!
I feel some tours make the the prize monies too top heavy,especially if you only have like 250 added(which to me is ridiculous)-you could place 5/6th and win the, most ,80 bucks-to me -I think the payouts are something to be looked at!
Like lara said, you travel 5 hours to a tournament you may draw a top pro, but you also may win the spot placing 9/12th and because the venue wants pros to attend, they wind up making a killing in the payout! To me, it depends on what your goal is-if its to be a road warrior and try and make money,then so be it, but if its to go pro,I personally,would play every event,especially when pros are included=I for one know how hard it is,but I will do everything possible to get as much experience playing with the pros as I can-look when I drew Julie-shes a world champion,just won the Canadaian event, I may have lost 9-6, had it not been for the fact that we've played regional tours together, I woulda probably been a bundle of nerves!
And Steve said there are other tours they can play,joss,tristate,etc-me personally, like the open tristates,but then again, I live in the perfect area to travel to these events! Some people may not!
Please forgive me for saying this, but you cannot compare the caliber of some of the regional players,except for the top ten on the tour!
Just my opinion!
Carol~doesnt know Barbs dilemma! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SUPERSTAR
10-26-2004, 06:07 AM
Are there any statistics for the turnout at events that the pro's are NOT allowed to play?

I would think that If pro's were not allowed to participate, that there would be more women coming out of the woodwork to play.
It would take away from that whole "who got the lucky draw" scenario, and might reinforce the possibility of the actual BEST Non Pro winning the tournament/qualifying spot.

AND.....
I personally think that if your going to have a qualifier package, that that package should include money to be used for travel expenses. I think that this lies at the heart of the JPNEWT tour, but that somehwere along the lines it got corrupted. (or maybe it was never meant to be like that in the first place)
Instead of the Spot and Top prize fund being won by the best qualified female, the spot goes to the girl who SURVIVED the longest, and the majority of the money goes to the TP's that came to the tournament.
It would be much nicer for some local female to win her entry into a pro event, and have that $450 or $500 to use for airfare and lodging. It would relieve the majority of her financial stress for the event. Instead you have women winning the spot, and since they came in 5-6th or 7-8th, winning like 50 bucks towards their cause.

How can that possibly be right? If they stayed at the cheapest accomodations available, they are still going to be stuck an additional $300 to $500 dollars if they have to fly to the event, and split a room with someone.

In contrast, the TP's that come to these events THAT HAVE sponsorship, almost always have money from their sponsors to help out with entry fee and travel costs.
How is that fair?

Now don't get me wrong. I cannot stand perfomanced based discrimination. If i sacrificed long and hard for years to get my game to a certain level, i should be rewarded for it, not punished. So it makes me sick to my stomach when there is a lucrative local small time tournament that is paying out lots of cash, that won't let me play in it because i "play to good" . Why did i bother to learn how to play in the first place?
If i am in some local event, and Busti, Efren, and Luat come walking in (which has happened), i am the first person to smile cause i want to draw one of them, and TOTALLY DEMOLISH THEM!!!!
I mean i'm gonna have to beat them to win it anyway...right?
But that is a local tournament. NOT a qualifying event.
If it WERE a qualifier into some bigger event, and they had already been assured spots in it. I would not even bother. I'd either have to play like a MANIAC or get lucky to win the spot.
I might watch the event, but to me it would be a complete waste of time. To me, they are already entered, and have no reason to play in the qualifier.
I would like the opportunity to win the qualifier without supreme talents tipping the scales against me, and if i were fortunate enough to win.
THEN i would to go to the big event and want to torture them.
But i would still want the chance to win the qualifier WITHOUT pro's that are aready playing in the main event, knocking me out.

Just like some of the Camel qualifiers i was at back in the day. You had the tournament director booting people out of the tournament, and not allowing people to play, because they were pro's. Or, were players that were not known, but were known to have BEATEN a pro. So it ended up that 5 or 6 guys were ultimately not allowed to play in the event, because they were "too good". This to me was completely wrong because none of those players that were barred were ALREADY ENTERED into the event. They, in my eyes, should have had the same opportunity to play as the next guy. Instead the tournament director used some excuse that they wanted only amateurs.
BUT...the one difference about that qualifier, and a few others i have attended was that only first place was paid.
There was no money after that. So if you won, you won everything. The spot AND the money.

I wonder how the turnout for the JPNEWT events would be if you had no Touring Pro's allowed, and had ALL the money go with the spot. Or maybe just 1st and 2nd.



SUPERSTAR

SUPERSTAR
10-26-2004, 06:40 AM
Also....there is the matter of exclusivity.
The WPBA is very exclusive. You can't just sign up and play if you aren't high up on the food chain.

Where the majority of mens events, except for maybe the BCA and the World Championships, are first come first serve. Sign up early and pay your money, and you can play. Regardless of how bad you suck.

So Men might have a more difficult time understanding that for the women, the qualifying system is basically the only way to get on tour. Yes there are exceptions such as political garbage, and of course the promoter spots that are given out to whomever the promoter likes.

BUT...
If the men DID have an exclusive tour, and the ONLY way to break out onto the scene was to qualify for it, how would you guys like it if some ringer showed up and shot down your dreams, and took all the money?

SUPERSTAR

Steve Lipsky
10-26-2004, 07:32 AM
Hey Superstar. It seems we have a lot in common on this issue. Let me play Efren all day, and pay to do it - but not in a qualifier, lol. I can't think of anything that makes less sense.

Another poster mentioned that the pros should continue to play, because he wanted to be guaranteed to see the best of the amateurs playing when he went to a pro tour. This is the problem with leaving the pros in! They are making it a crapshoot to see who wins the spot.

Superstar, a while back in this thread you asked me how Gina felt about this issue. I spoke with her about it last night, and she feels pretty adamantly that they should not be allowed to play (except in the State Championships).

- Steve

Eric.
10-26-2004, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hey Superstar. It seems we have a lot in common on this issue. Let me play Efren all day, and pay to do it - but not in a qualifier, lol. I can't think of anything that makes less sense.

Another poster mentioned that the pros should continue to play, because he wanted to be guaranteed to see the best of the amateurs playing when he went to a pro tour. This is the problem with leaving the pros in! They are making it a crapshoot to see who wins the spot.

Superstar, a while back in this thread you asked me how Gina felt about this issue. I spoke with her about it last night, and she feels pretty adamantly that they should not be allowed to play (except in the State Championships).

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Steve,

As always, you seem to bring up some articulate points. Maybe the happy medium is to limit the TP's to State championships only AND have more qualifier stops. I know it's easier said than done, but I think the idea would hold water.


Eric &gt;just spectating

SUPERSTAR
10-26-2004, 10:52 AM
Hey Steve
Lets just say that i know what it's like to see someone i care about shoot for their dreams, only to come home disgusted time and time again because of the very topic being talked about in this thread.

AND....
I've played in qualifiers as well. Each with it's own politics for each particular tournament.
Some of the politics were right, and some were horribly wrong.
From my view, it is as clear as day, as it is to you.
A no brainer if you will.
If it were maybe 1 or 2 events, then i might think better of it, but it's not.
This is a TOUR.
AND...in my mind. Letting pro's in taints EVERYTHING.
Let me explain....

It has already been talked about how pros can alter the outcome of a tournament. The draw is the key factor to someone getting the spot in most situations for the women.
BUT....
Spots aren't the only way to get in to a pro event.
You have the politics, that just never seem right.
Then you have the promoter spots which go to local favorites or someone really deserving in the promoters mind.
BUT..... and this is where i feel it gets deeper.
In a lot of situations. When a tournament is filling up....they used to go to the RANKINGS of the regional tours to see who would be next on the list to go play, according to their RANK.

Usually the rankings consisted of a few touring pros, and then the "top" NON pros from the tour. EVEN THOUGH these rankings themselves might not truly reflect the abilities of the actual players. They still represent a lot of the "DRAW" in their numbers.
Suppose you have a girl who is obviously talented....who without pros playing would surely place high in the majority of events, winning a few along the way.
THEN you add the pro factor....
So now this same girl goes and plays, but she ends up with some pretty lousy draws, and has to play Karen or whatever top pro is there, and subsequently gets knocked out EARLIER than she normally would have.

So NOW...the girl who finished highest gets the best "points" or however they do the rankings, and girl who has more talent is lower on the scale because of her misfortune.
BECAUSE OF THIS...her RANKING is lower, and she does not get considered when they go through the rankings. All because of the pro influence.

See my point? It has a LASTING IMPACT on the tour rankings themselves.
How could this possibly be fair in deciding who is best qualified to go.

YES YES YES...your gonna have people that say it will even out in the long run, and if she plays good, it will show up sooner or later in the rankings, but as far as i'm concerned....the damage is already done.

The ONLY other alternative to pros not playing, would be....if you MUST let them play.
Do something with the prize money
Say a tournament breaks down into

1st $450 and the qualifier
2nd $350
3rd $250
4th $150
5-6 $100

now i know that these numbers may vary, but to express my point they will suffice.

Suppose that KAREN, JULIE, and ALLISON show up, and as expected, they take 1st and 2nd and 3rd.

If it were MY tour, i would implement a rule that whomever wins the qualifying spot, GETS THE QUALIFYING MONEY!

the payout would then be...if Allison won for example.
1st ALLISON F. $350
2nd KAREN C. $250
3rd JULIE K. $150
4th THE GIRL WHO WINS THE QUALIFYING SPOT....$450+THE SPOT.
5TH-6TH $100 EACH.

At least THIS WAY...even though they were there to make some extra cash, the money they win WOULDN'T have any effect on the girl who lucky enough to win the spot, and the money that she rightfully DESERVES in my mind.

SUPERSTAR

John in NH
10-26-2004, 03:43 PM
Hi Barbara,

If a professional player is not already qualified to play in the tournament then of course they should be allowed to play in the qualifier.

If they are already in the tournament then no, no, no.



Regards,

John

Chris Cass
10-26-2004, 08:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SUPERSTAR:</font><hr> Hey Steve
Lets just say that i know what it's like to see someone i care about shoot for their dreams, only to come home disgusted time and time again because of the very topic being talked about in this thread.

AND....
I've played in qualifiers as well. Each with it's own politics for each particular tournament.
Some of the politics were right, and some were horribly wrong.
From my view, it is as clear as day, as it is to you.
A no brainer if you will.
If it were maybe 1 or 2 events, then i might think better of it, but it's not.
This is a TOUR.
AND...in my mind. Letting pro's in taints EVERYTHING.
Let me explain....

It has already been talked about how pros can alter the outcome of a tournament. The draw is the key factor to someone getting the spot in most situations for the women.
BUT....
Spots aren't the only way to get in to a pro event.
You have the politics, that just never seem right.
Then you have the promoter spots which go to local favorites or someone really deserving in the promoters mind.
BUT..... and this is where i feel it gets deeper.
In a lot of situations. When a tournament is filling up....they used to go to the RANKINGS of the regional tours to see who would be next on the list to go play, according to their RANK.

Usually the rankings consisted of a few touring pros, and then the "top" NON pros from the tour. EVEN THOUGH these rankings themselves might not truly reflect the abilities of the actual players. They still represent a lot of the "DRAW" in their numbers.
Suppose you have a girl who is obviously talented....who without pros playing would surely place high in the majority of events, winning a few along the way.
THEN you add the pro factor....
So now this same girl goes and plays, but she ends up with some pretty lousy draws, and has to play Karen or whatever top pro is there, and subsequently gets knocked out EARLIER than she normally would have.

So NOW...the girl who finished highest gets the best "points" or however they do the rankings, and girl who has more talent is lower on the scale because of her misfortune.
BECAUSE OF THIS...her RANKING is lower, and she does not get considered when they go through the rankings. All because of the pro influence.

See my point? It has a LASTING IMPACT on the tour rankings themselves.
How could this possibly be fair in deciding who is best qualified to go.

YES YES YES...your gonna have people that say it will even out in the long run, and if she plays good, it will show up sooner or later in the rankings, but as far as i'm concerned....the damage is already done.

The ONLY other alternative to pros not playing, would be....if you MUST let them play.
Do something with the prize money
Say a tournament breaks down into

1st $450 and the qualifier
2nd $350
3rd $250
4th $150
5-6 $100

now i know that these numbers may vary, but to express my point they will suffice.

Suppose that KAREN, JULIE, and ALLISON show up, and as expected, they take 1st and 2nd and 3rd.

If it were MY tour, i would implement a rule that whomever wins the qualifying spot, GETS THE QUALIFYING MONEY!

the payout would then be...if Allison won for example.
1st ALLISON F. $350
2nd KAREN C. $250
3rd JULIE K. $150
4th THE GIRL WHO WINS THE QUALIFYING SPOT....$450+THE SPOT.
5TH-6TH $100 EACH.

At least THIS WAY...even though they were there to make some extra cash, the money they win WOULDN'T have any effect on the girl who lucky enough to win the spot, and the money that she rightfully DESERVES in my mind.

SUPERSTAR


<hr /></blockquote>

Now your thinking like me SS. How'd you like to be me? In the Midwest we have our own players that walk in and steal. This isn't just the bigger amature events it's everything. Even $10. tourneys. It's a paycheck and that's all it is. I'm never there once to complain but if it's a Q tourney that's the only thing that maters to me is that the Q goes to the person that isn't a pro. The money should go to them too for it's the reason behind the doe to begin with. They need that help to go to the event.

I don't think they pros should be allowed to take the Q money either. Even in the Jr. Q events are tough. The BCA even told me over the phone that may times the kids playing the event have already won money in other Q events along with the spot and yet they'll play the Jr event and take the money leaving the spot go to the next player without down the list but they won't get the money. That isn't fair. The BCA told me that to be sure to give the money for the trip to the Nat for the player going. Not for the player that has already Qualified and wants the money for themselves. That's why Spike didn't go to the last Nat event. Well, that and I won't let him till he's 13. I've been concidering that over too now. First let me clear this up. The Jr' don't get money awarded. It's plane fair or hotel accom. The BCA told me that it's money for transpotation or lodging that the Jr gets. Not cash.

Regards,

C.C.

Barbara
10-26-2004, 08:58 PM
Steve,

In the non-State Championship event(s) I hold - read Prime Time, maybe I should have a "on the wire" handicap. The Pros playing should give up 2 on a race to 7 on the wire.

What does Gina think? And the rest of the NYC contingent. I NEED THEIR OPINIONS!!!

Barbara

BLACKHEART
10-26-2004, 09:34 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gifBarb, I hope I run into you at Valley Forge OR SOMEWHERE. I know we would hit it off . I like you. You got STUFF.......as my dad would have said...JER

Rich R.
10-27-2004, 03:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gifBarb, I hope I run into you at Valley Forge OR SOMEWHERE. I know we would hit it off . I like you. You got STUFF.......as my dad would have said...JER <hr /></blockquote>
Jer, Barbara is very easy to find at Valley Forge. She will be at the tournament desk, on the main level, with the chain around her leg, to make sure she doesn't leave. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Doctor_D
10-27-2004, 04:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Steve,

In the non-State Championship event(s) I hold - read Prime Time, maybe I should have a "on the wire" handicap. The Pros playing should give up 2 on a race to 7 on the wire.

What does Gina think? And the rest of the NYC contingent. I NEED THEIR OPINIONS!!!

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>


Good morning Barbara:

Let's draft a Questionaire on this subject and mail it to the JP-NEWT Membership, I would handle the mailings if you wish, with a return envelope or; let's do it via E-Mail for their direct input.

Personally; while I do not mind drawing a Touring Pro at our events, their participation does have a significant influence on the final outcome.


Dr. D.