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Qtec
11-03-2004, 07:57 AM
....cant believe what they are saying on TV.....its impossible......surely.......oh wait, there is still Ohio.....need a miracle.....that voodoo doll I bought over the internet didnt work.........its time to get the chicken bones out and give that a try........too late...know I know what the dog threw up last night....am i dreaming?... no its probably a nightmare, phew.......ouch! its not a dream..its for real....what went wrong?........4 more years...whats he going to do next...who knows.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhh.

Q

pooltchr
11-03-2004, 08:07 AM
Q,
You should have been prepared for this. In the past week, you and I have actually AGREED on two separate occasions!!!
It was in the stars! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Tell the truth...do you honestly believe the decision of the American people in choosing their leader is going to have much of an impact on your life?
Steve

Wally_in_Cincy
11-03-2004, 08:07 AM
Ordinarily I would not gloat in this situation but since it's you I will sing ...

<font color="red">"neener neener neener

Bush is in the White House"</font color>

hope this helps

Cueless Joey
11-03-2004, 08:28 AM
Don't worry it might get worse.
Cheney might win it '98. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Too bad Kerry couldn't pull a Rally Monkey out of the hat.
Ohio? I believe the NRA is very active there. It's a blue collar state but why didn't Kerry win it handily?
Must be the Ketchup woman or something.
Maybe Howard Dean was the better candidate.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-03-2004, 09:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Ohio? I believe the NRA is very active there.

<font color="blue">No more than any other Midwest state. </font color>

It's a blue collar state but why didn't Kerry win it handily?
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Ohio is becoming less and less blue-collar all the time. NE OH (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown) is heavily Dem, with a lot of union or former union members.

SW OH (Gretaer Cincinnati, Hamiltucky, until you get to Dayton) is very, very heavily Rep. for some reason (Hillbillies and Germans mostly). The farmers and the rural folks in OH are mostly conservative, even if they are Dems.

Ohio can go either way depending on how the economy is doing. We almost went for Kerry, due to Ohio's manufacturing indusrty being soft. As our taxes keep going up and up (due to Rep's and Dems alike) companies are leaving.

We have gone from one of the most tax-friendly states in the 60's to one of the worst now. Thanks to Governors Celeste (Dem), Voinovich (Rep) and our peresent Gov. Taft (aka Howdy Doody).</font color>

Bob_in_Cincy
11-03-2004, 09:16 AM
Yeah, that's right. Blame the NRA. Puh-leeze. I think Wally's take on it is about right.

All I can say is: "Hey John, who's your daddy?"

Bob

rah
11-03-2004, 09:29 AM
I hope they take the 10 full days to count the votes. I want to make the Democrats suffer like little "girly men" should LOL LOL LOL.

The real danger is Hillery running 4 years from now. This is what the Clinton's wanted, for the Democrates to lose so that Hillery could move in at the best possible time.

Her only chance would be if the war on terror would be over by then. Fat chance. I would say another 8-12 more years at least thank God.

Deeman2
11-03-2004, 09:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> ....cant believe what they are saying on TV.....its impossible......surely.......oh wait, there is still Ohio.....need a miracle.....that voodoo doll I bought over the internet didnt work.........its time to get the chicken bones out and give that a try........too late...know I know what the dog threw up last night....am i dreaming?... no its probably a nightmare, phew.......ouch! its not a dream..its for real....what went wrong?........4 more years...whats he going to do next...who knows.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhh.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec,

Don't feel too bad, they haven't counted the Dutch vote yet! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Deeman

PQQLK9
11-03-2004, 10:07 AM
The Netherlands is looking better and better ... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Deeman2
11-03-2004, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PQQLK9:</font><hr> The Netherlands is looking better and better ... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>


Bon voyage...

Qtec
11-03-2004, 10:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Don't feel too bad, they haven't counted the Dutch vote yet! <hr /></blockquote>

Somehow I dont think they will!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Typical.

Q [ my 3,000 votes could have made the difference! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif]

Cueless Joey
11-03-2004, 10:35 AM
Q, I hope you be nice to Barbra Streisand, Alec Baldwin, Sean Penn, Michael Moore, Rosie O'Donutwell, Bruce Springsteen and Bll Maher.
They are all moving there soon. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I hope Bush does a better job in his last 4 years.
Maybe he can plan out the pullout of Iraq now.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-03-2004, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> ...Maybe he can plan out the pullout of Iraq now.
<hr /></blockquote>

But first...

I have a feeling there are some smelly guys in dirty nightshirts in Fallujah that are feeling sicker than Qtec is right now.

catscradle
11-03-2004, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> <font color="blue">Ohio is becoming less and less blue-collar all the time...</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Isn't that true of the entire country as jobs go overseas? Of course parts of country are already pretty devoid of blue collar workers.

Singlemalt
11-03-2004, 11:19 AM
Here is the phone call to concede...

"hello?... Senator Kerry this is YOUR president...." /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
11-04-2004, 06:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_in_Cincy:</font><hr> I think Wally's take on it is about right. <hr /></blockquote>

I think you are right /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

http://www.cincinnati.com/election2004/countymap.gif

http://www.cincinnati.com/election2004/countybycounty.html

Kerry took Dayton, Columbus, Toledo, Cleveland, Akron, Canton, and Youngstown.

Bush took everything else. 72 counties to 16

highsea
11-04-2004, 07:29 AM
Wow! That was close! Kerry shouldn't have given up. Edwards could have channeled up some dead voters and you never know how many hanging chads there were, especially with Ohio's 2-corner rule...

hondo
11-04-2004, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PQQLK9:</font><hr> The Netherlands is looking better and better ... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Sadly, I'm thinking the same thing. Looking at the
voting and listening to these characters on here
makes me fearfol for America. I told a friend that
America must be full of idiots and he said 48 percent
aren't. Take some hope from that; almost half the
people are sane. Most of these characters that get
on here and laud Bush's Iraq wouldn't go over
there themselves if you stuck a gun to their head.

Qtec
11-05-2004, 02:58 AM
Hondo, the election was decided by people who voted , not on the issues but on religious conviction. the only issues for them were abortion and gay marrige.

[ QUOTE ]
The exit polls pointed to a huge boost for Republicans from voters who said their biggest concern was "moral values."

The term wasn't defined, and Democrats spent much of yesterday protesting that they have morals and values, too. The term is basically a code phrase for abortion and gays. For some people, particularly religious evangelicals, these issues are even more important than Iraq, terrorism, the economy, health care, the environment and education. Moral issues gnaw at the guts of people who think they know right from wrong and normal from sick. The reelection of George W. Bush as the 43rd president of the United States appears to be at least in part because of a fear that liberals favor marital unions among sodomites..

Ohio may have lost a couple hundred thousand jobs during the tenure of President Bush, but Kerry, despite all his trips to the state, couldn't turn it from red to blue. Tony Perkins, head of the Family Research Council, another conservative group that spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars on the gay marriage issue, said yesterday that Ohio and Pennsylvania have similar demographics. Bush won Ohio, and Kerry won Pennsylvania. The difference, he argues, was that Ohio's ballot included an amendment to ban gay marriage.

"It was these values voters who ushered the president down the aisle to a second term," Perkins said. Even the Republicans didn't see it coming, he said. "People are shocked that it wasn't the war, it wasn't the economy; it was the values issues that generated so much activity in this election."

<hr /></blockquote>

These values seem to be limited to matters pertaining to sex, ie abortion, homosexuality and Aids[ condoms]. The Govt are against the use of condoms to prevent the spead of aids in 3rd world countries.A complete turn-around based on religious conviction, not on scientific fact.
The new approach is- "dont have sex".?????

GW invaded Iraq because he 'believed' Saddam was a threat. He implied that S was helping Al Q and it was Al Q who were responsible for 9/11. Without 9/11 the Neo-cons would never have been able to get their way, especially on Iraq.
I still think there are many questions that have gone unanswered about the attack itself and the 'apparent' total failure of the intelligence agencies for getting everything wrong on Iraq.[ or did they?]
There a lot of loose ends that need to checked out.

How many people have been actually brought to justice that had direct involvment in 9/11?

Q

Chopstick
11-05-2004, 05:12 AM
Just for the record Q, that plane that straifed that school last night was not part of Bush's old National Guard unit.

highsea
11-05-2004, 09:05 AM
Qtec, you make statements based on exit polls, which proved almost entirely wrong this time around. I wouldn't put too much stake on what they said.

Chop, the incident with the F-16 is under investigation. the gun malfunctioned, cause unknown. It was not a case of the pilot firing the gun on accident, the gun went off for reasons that have not been determined. It's best not to speculate until the investigation has been comleted.

Chopstick
11-05-2004, 09:21 AM
Yea, I know. I don't see it being pilot error. I was just taking a poke at Q.

highsea
11-05-2004, 09:32 AM
There is always a bunch of wild speculation whenever an accident occurs. I just don't like to see fuel added to the fire...The papers are already having a field day with this.

All that is known at this point is that 6 practice rounds hit the school. Whether is was a malfunction in the gun, the fire control system, or pilot error will not be determined until the data from the HUD and flight data recorders has been analyzed.

Chopstick
11-05-2004, 11:55 AM
I see what you mean. I heard it was 25. The radio was buzzing with it when I woke up. I just checked around. Seems the only report is on CNN. So, it was 6. They're saying 25. I stopped believing those guys a long time ago. They say the range is four miles away from that town. If they were firing at altitude I can see 20mm going that far. They also said it fired from 7,000 feet. I wouldn't think they would be firing on a ground target from that high. Now that I think about it if you can shoot a 7.62mm 1000 yards, 7000ft. for 20mm doesn't sound that far.

highsea
11-05-2004, 12:33 PM
In this excersize, the firing should have commenced at 5,000 feet, after the turn was completed. At 7,000 ft., the gun should not have been armed yet. The AC was in a diving turn, and the distance to the school was well within the range of the gun at that altitude. Fire control is handled by the computer, an F-16 is not a WW2 fighter where the pilot lines up crosshairs on a target and pulls the trigger.

The total discharge was 25 or 27 rounds, most of which landed in the woods nearby. 5 landed in the parking lot, and 6 or 8 hit the building. (this is not clear right now)There is also some question whether or not the AC was within the test range boundaries or a little north of it when the incident happened. The F-16's Vulcan cannon normally holds 540 rounds but a limiting device reduces the capacity to 110 rounds during these excersizes.

Like I said, the cause will not be determined until the data are analyzed. It may have been pilot error, or it may have been a malfunction. But already the headlines are going nuts, "F-16 Strafes School", and "F-16 Fighter Jet Attacks School", etc. This kind of sensationalism sells papers, but misleads the public and frightens people unnecessarily.

cheesemouse
11-05-2004, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> In this excersize, the firing should have commenced at 5,000 feet, after the turn was completed. At 7,000 ft., the gun should not have been armed yet. The AC was in a diving turn, and the distance to the school was well within the range of the gun at that altitude. Fire control is handled by the computer, an F-16 is not a WW2 fighter where the pilot lines up crosshairs on a target and pulls the trigger.

The total discharge was 25 or 27 rounds, most of which landed in the woods nearby. 5 landed in the parking lot, and 6 or 8 hit the building. (this is not clear right now)There is also some question whether or not the AC was within the test range boundaries or a little north of it when the incident happened. The F-16's Vulcan cannon normally holds 540 rounds but a limiting device reduces the capacity to 110 rounds during these excersizes.

Like I said, the cause will not be determined until the data are analyzed. It may have been pilot error, or it may have been a malfunction. But already the headlines are going nuts, "F-16 Strafes School", and "F-16 Fighter Jet Attacks School", etc. This kind of sensationalism sells papers, but misleads the public and frightens people unnecessarily. <hr /></blockquote>

What hell Highsea....you frighten me unnecessarily /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

highsea
11-05-2004, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> What hell Highsea....you frighten me unnecessarily /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Lol. It's okay, Cheese, tomorrow is just a pill away. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PQQLK9
11-05-2004, 12:58 PM
I dunno, remember TWA flight 800?

wolfdancer
11-05-2004, 01:02 PM
Yes, it was George's stand against the Saddamites, and the sodomites, that got him reelected.

highsea
11-05-2004, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Yes, it was George's stand against the Saddamites, and the sodomites, that got him reelected. <hr /></blockquote>Haha, that was funny! I guess I'm against the Saddamites. The sodomites don't matter to me as long as they leave me alone... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Chopstick
11-05-2004, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>

Fire control is handled by the computer, an F-16 is not a WW2 fighter where the pilot lines up crosshairs on a target and pulls the trigger.

<hr /></blockquote>

I thought the gun sight was in the HUD.

highsea
11-05-2004, 02:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> I thought the gun sight was in the HUD. <hr /></blockquote>Well, all targeting data is shown in the HUD. The F-16 is fully HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick), which means everything can be done without the pilot looking down. This was a nighttime training mission, so the HUD was being fed data from the LANTIRN pods, which provide Terrain Following Radar and FLIR targeting data to the fire control system.

I would have to look up the actual Block Version the DCANG uses to say for sure which sight is on the AC, but I assume it is the EEGS (Enhanced Envelope Gun Sight). The EEGS can establish the plane of motion and range without a radar lock, and is fitted on all Block 50/52 AC and most earlier versions. The gun is electrically fired by the gun controller. In the first second, 70 rounds are discharged, and the gun hasn't even wound up to speed yet. So the 25 round burst happened without targeting data in the HUD, and the fire signal lasted for just under 1/3 of a second.

Also there are 2 master arm switches, one for the fire control system and one for the trigger. Both switches have to be armed to shoot.

My gut tells me that something shorted in the gun. The gun is hydraulically driven, and electrical power is fed through the drive shaft and flex drive. A contact on each breech bolt comes in contact with a small wire contact and completes the circuit to the round, which uses an electric primer. If this shorts, the gun will fire.

BTW, the reports incorrectly state the AC was from the NJANG. The Warren Grove range is run by the NJANG, but the plane was from the DCANG.

wolfdancer
11-05-2004, 02:54 PM
Hey, i thought you was going to be John Jacob Jingle-heimer Smith... that was funny lol...but mine were real at one time or another
....seems that Papa WAS indeed a "rolling stone"

highsea
11-05-2004, 03:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Hey, i thought you was going to be John Jacob Jingle-heimer Smith...<hr /></blockquote>OMG! He wasn't a sodomite was he? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
11-07-2004, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> Well, all targeting data is shown in the HUD. The F-16 is fully HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick), which means everything can be done without the pilot looking down. This was a nighttime training mission, so the HUD was being fed data from the LANTIRN pods, which provide Terrain Following Radar and FLIR targeting data to the fire control system.

I would have to look up the actual Block Version the DCANG uses to say for sure which sight is on the AC, but I assume it is the EEGS (Enhanced Envelope Gun Sight). The EEGS can establish the plane of motion and range without a radar lock, and is fitted on all Block 50/52 AC and most earlier versions. The gun is electrically fired by the gun controller. In the first second, 70 rounds are discharged, and the gun hasn't even wound up to speed yet. So the 25 round burst happened without targeting data in the HUD, and the fire signal lasted for just under 1/3 of a second.

Also there are 2 master arm switches, one for the fire control system and one for the trigger. Both switches have to be armed to shoot.

My gut tells me that something shorted in the gun. The gun is hydraulically driven, and electrical power is fed through the drive shaft and flex drive. A contact on each breech bolt comes in contact with a small wire contact and completes the circuit to the round, which uses an electric primer. If this shorts, the gun will fire.

BTW, the reports incorrectly state the AC was from the NJANG. The Warren Grove range is run by the NJANG, but the plane was from the DCANG. <hr /></blockquote>

highsea, I think you are the only person I know who subscribes to both Inside Pool and Jane's Defence Weekly /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chopstick
11-07-2004, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> I thought the gun sight was in the HUD. <hr /></blockquote>Well, all targeting data is shown in the HUD. The F-16 is fully HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick), which means everything can be done without the pilot looking down. This was a nighttime training mission, so the HUD was being fed data from the LANTIRN pods, which provide Terrain Following Radar and FLIR targeting data to the fire control system.

I would have to look up the actual Block Version the DCANG uses to say for sure which sight is on the AC, but I assume it is the EEGS (Enhanced Envelope Gun Sight). The EEGS can establish the plane of motion and range without a radar lock, and is fitted on all Block 50/52 AC and most earlier versions. The gun is electrically fired by the gun controller. In the first second, 70 rounds are discharged, and the gun hasn't even wound up to speed yet. So the 25 round burst happened without targeting data in the HUD, and the fire signal lasted for just under 1/3 of a second.

Also there are 2 master arm switches, one for the fire control system and one for the trigger. Both switches have to be armed to shoot.

My gut tells me that something shorted in the gun. The gun is hydraulically driven, and electrical power is fed through the drive shaft and flex drive. A contact on each breech bolt comes in contact with a small wire contact and completes the circuit to the round, which uses an electric primer. If this shorts, the gun will fire.

BTW, the reports incorrectly state the AC was from the NJANG. The Warren Grove range is run by the NJANG, but the plane was from the DCANG. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks man. That was interesting.

Ross
11-07-2004, 01:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> Qtec, you make statements based on exit polls, which proved almost entirely wrong this time around. I wouldn't put too much stake on what they said.
... <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think the exit polls were wrong on documenting the answers voters gave as to why they voted the way they did. It was the extrapolation of the % of Kerry voters in the various states and the US that was in error.

I was at a party last night, and a friend was telling me how she was literally screamed at during a long-winded tirade by a woman (whom she didn't know) who found out she had voted for Kerry. This chuch-going black woman followed her into a parking lot and continued yelling at her that she needed to pray about voting and basically told her that if she prayed she would have known to vote for Bush.

The Repubs did successfully convince a lot of the fundamentalists that voting for Bush was a religious duty. And the gay marriage issue trumped all others in this regard. And when the Dems lose even the black chuch vote, they are going to have a hard time winning national elections.

highsea
11-07-2004, 01:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>I don't think the exit polls were wrong on documenting the answers voters gave as to why they voted the way they did. It was the extrapolation of the % of Kerry voters in the various states and the US that was in error.<hr /></blockquote>I didn't say the answers were wrong. But they did not account for some simple facts, the early polls were almost 3-1 women voters. This alone should have raised a flag as to their accuracy for projecting the results.

The Dems were already planning the Kerry re-election strategy. The Kerry camp was all grins, Lockhart made a statement that the elections were fair, no problems, there would be no legal contests, etc. By lunchtime they were already trying to pre-empt any GOP legal challenges with the media. They were so sure Florida and Ohio were in the bag. When the actual results started coming in, they realized they were in trouble. Silence settled in, the reporters sat around dumbfounded, nobody knew what to say.

Exit polls serve no real purpose. Like Popcorn mentioned, they give the media something to talk about for the 8 hours or so until real results start coming in. Anyone who thinks there is something valuable about them is kidding themselves. It's the votes that count, not the polls, not the media.

The fact that the media hyped Kerry incessently and bashed Bush non-stop, only made the fall that much harder for Democrats. If media coverage was more balanced, the results wouldn't have surprised anyone. The majority of Americans realize just how slanted the mainstream media is. The front page has become an Op-Ed page. When was the last time a conservative was interviewed by a major network, in a non-hostile manner, by anyone besides Fox? (I'm talking pre-election here, not post.)

eg8r
11-07-2004, 07:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
And the gay marriage issue trumped all others in this regard. And when the Dems lose even the black chuch vote, they are going to have a hard time winning national elections. <hr /></blockquote> You are right, they are already having a hard time winning. I think it is time, the Dems quit calling the Reps dumb and start looking at their own party and see where they are failing. They should be able to take something from this election that will get them to start thinking about they own party lines and see how they match up with the way the country has voted.

eg8r

highsea
11-07-2004, 11:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> The Repubs did successfully convince a lot of the fundamentalists that voting for Bush was a religious duty. And the gay marriage issue trumped all others in this regard.<hr /></blockquote>The Dems are doing their level best to paint Republicans as a bunch of homophobes over this, but there are a few problems with that analysis.

There were eleven states that had ballot initiatives to ban same-sex marriages that all passed by an average margin of 2 to 1. Oddly, President Bush only received 51% of the votes nationally. As a result, this means that at least 23% ([67-51]/67) of the Yays for these initiatives came from folks who did not vote for Mr. Bush. Moreover, as only 37% of those who voted claimed that they were Republican, at least 45% of the folks who supported these bans were either Democrats or Independents ([67-37]/67).

Kerry won Oregon by a margin of 52% to 48%. However, the ballot measure in question passed 57% to 43%. If the people who voted for Mr. Kerry were so much more enlightened than those voting for Mr. Bush, why didn’t this measure fail in Oregon? The same can be said of Michigan where Kerry took 51% of the state while 59% voted to ban same-sex marriages.

In ten of these eleven states, this initiative received considerably more “Yay” votes than President Bush did. The most flagrant example is Mississippi where Bush received 60% of the votes, but this measure won with 86% in favor. That means that at least 30% ([86-60]/86) of the folks in Mississippi who voted for this ban didn’t vote for Mr. Bush. In Arkansas, this figure was 28%.

So, contrary to what the Left is practically frothing about, this is not only a bipartisan position, but also one that many more Kerry voters hold than the Democrats would care to admit.

Alfie
11-08-2004, 06:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> The Dems are doing their level best to paint Republicans as a bunch of homophobes over this, but there are a few problems with that analysis.

[snip voter demographic math]

So, contrary to what the Left is practically frothing about, this is not only a bipartisan position, but also one that many more Kerry voters hold than the Democrats would care to admit. <hr /></blockquote>I agree, highsea. Homophobia cuts across political lines. I can't believe the left deemed this spin-able.