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View Full Version : Finals.. Race to 7?



Tom_In_Cincy
05-18-2002, 08:19 PM
This can't be good for Pool.

If this is any indication of the future of pool.. seeing the silly 7 ball matches, and giving into changing the rules all the time (Sardo, 9 ball on the spot)Two matches to 5 and a single game playoff, if the matches end up tied.

Next you'll see 3 ball one pocket..

How far will the so called powers of pool go to 'lay down' in front of the TV moguls just for the cash.. and not play pool like its is suppose to be played?

I would rather see "NO" pool than the crap that is being televised. In fact, I will not watch any more commercially televised pool until they clean up their act.

I would rather see an Accustats video than watch any more of the idiotic pool commentary, (Hopkins is a joke and Luarence is his clown)

Critical? very.. we could do better without ESPN pool..

Support your local Pool Hall tournaments, support your regional tours, support your leagues. And, stop watching those ESPN sport fillers.......

Harold Acosta
05-18-2002, 08:33 PM
I have to agree with Tom, what a crock! A race to seven in the last day, and it was the only match to be played?

ESPN has messed up everything for pool! People bust their chops playing races to 11 all tournament long, and the comes the Almighty and says that only races to 7 to fill up for TV? This is very unfair for the players and pool spectators!

ESPN gets two thumbs down!!!!!!!

Ken
05-18-2002, 09:03 PM
I just hope they only charged half price to watch the finals. It's hardly worth going to the trouble to buy tickets and find seats for just a race to 7. ESPN can simply leave out more of the games they don't want to show in the hour they allot for the match. How much trouble could it be to stay longer and record a race to 13 and then edit it. Or would that double the production costs?

The commentators would have to be payed twice as much, of course. If one of them were fired they could save his salary and do a better show for the same money. I'm not sure we really need Mitch making incorrect guesses about each upcoming shot. Allen seems to spend much of his time correcting Mitch and they both talk too much presumably to justify their presence.
KenCT

cheesemouse
05-18-2002, 09:03 PM
What I don't understand is that they (ESPN) chops and edits the matches before they broadcast them so why can't they leave the format pure, at a race to 11, and do a great job of editing the damn thing where they do quick recap of the games they don't show in there enteriorty. They could make a better more exciting show of it and leave the damn format alone. I hate ESPN!!!!!! Man, these guys piss me off.

JimS
05-18-2002, 09:08 PM
I'm torn. I sure as hell agree that races to 7 are a crock...race to 5 for the ladies is just sheer folly. These matches are no indication of who is the better player, even with alternate break.

But!!! If we want to have people be able to make a living playing pool....lots of people rather than just the top 5 or so, then pool MUST have the TV $$$$$$$.

What's the compromise going to be? Longer races but just televise highlights of some matches? Skip some games? Skip the part where the players are moving from shot to shot...aiming, thinking etc.?

Dammed if I got the answer but Tom you are right about this not being acceptable...at least not to serious pool players, but we represent a really minute segment of the TV viewing public.

???????????????????????????????????????????

Rod
05-18-2002, 09:21 PM
Cheese I like that idea. I wonder if ESPN has been approached on that idea? Seems to me its a win win situation. Unless ESPN has a problem with a little extra camera time and editing. Next move is how well they edit!
A race to 7 is a bunch of crap.

cheesemouse
05-18-2002, 09:59 PM
Rod,
I don't believe ESPN is into the purity of sports period. They lost their 'cherry' about ten years ago when they put on the first bikini volley ball event. It's cash and sex in the Ivory Tower.

Rip
05-18-2002, 10:07 PM
Tom, the Sardo was used for all Pro matches again in Vegas but they did not move the rack up so the 9 was on the spot. They racked "normal" but they used the Sardo. As for the short races to 7, you should ask Earl S what he thinks about them! We talked while practicing the day before the tournament started and he explained to me item by item exactly what was wrong with pool today. First on his list was the race to 7 format which he feels is a farce and I agree. When I mentioned the races to 5 and 7 ball, the veins started to bulge in his temples and neck, his eyes dilated and his face turned a strange color or red. Two bottles of water later he had calmed down enough to continue hitting balls and discussing pool's current dilemmas.
A lot of people aren't aware that ESPN does not spend one dime producing, promoting or supporting pool. For example, the BCA Pro 9 Ball event is produced and all production costs are covered by S. Tipton's group. The tape is edited and fomatted to fit the allotted run time and is handed over to ESPN and they simply play the tape. Steve Tipton commented today that Pro Pool has the same viewership whether the show is aired during prime time or 2:30 in the morning. Strange group...these pool fans! According to Tipton, ESPN does spend money to promote and help produce the woodchopping competitions and tractor pulls! Don't tell Earl! Regards, Rip

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> This can't be good for Pool.

If this is any indication of the future of pool.. seeing the silly 7 ball matches, and giving into changing the rules all the time (Sardo, 9 ball on the spot)Two matches to 5 and a single game playoff, if the matches end up tied.

Next you'll see 3 ball one pocket..

How far will the so called powers of pool go to 'lay down' in front of the TV moguls just for the cash.. and not play pool like its is suppose to be played?

I would rather see "NO" pool than the crap that is being televised. In fact, I will not watch any more commercially televised pool until they clean up their act.

I would rather see an Accustats video than watch any more of the idiotic pool commentary, (Hopkins is a joke and Luarence is his clown)

Critical? very.. we could do better without ESPN pool..

Support your local Pool Hall tournaments, support your regional tours, support your leagues. And, stop watching those ESPN sport fillers.......



<hr></blockquote>

05-18-2002, 10:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cheesemouse:</font><hr> Rod,
I don't believe ESPN is into the purity of sports period. They lost their 'cherry' about ten years ago when they put on the first bikini volley ball event. It's cash and sex in the Ivory Tower. <hr></blockquote>

oh. man, cheezer. ya did it to me again.

race to 7 or bikini volleyball?

bikini volleyball? race to seven?

aw, heck. i'm probably watchin too much pool anyway.


dan...well prioritized.

MikeM
05-18-2002, 10:17 PM
Should we really be blaming ESPN if they have no say in the production? Does anyone know Steve Tipton well enough to ask if it is ESPN's or his decision to shorten the matches for the TV segment?

MM

cheesemouse
05-18-2002, 10:24 PM
MikeM,
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>A lot of people aren't aware that ESPN does not spend one dime producing, promoting or supporting pool. For example, the BCA Pro 9 Ball event is produced and all production costs are covered by S. Tipton's group.<hr></blockquote> I learn something new everyday. In that case then the BCA and Steve Tipton are pool whores. Now I hate the BCA and Steve, whoever the hell he is.

05-18-2002, 10:29 PM
Tom, I don't think ESPN is directly to blame for the race to 7. The only thing they require is that it gets edited into a one hour show. ESPN does not do the filming. An independent production company does the filming. I'm not sure whether ESPN or the production company does the editing. (I don't think ESPN does it, but if they do, that could be a glitch, but I don't think so.)

I'm pretty sure it's up to whoever pays the production company to decide how long the race will be. In the case of the WPBA, they can't afford to pay the production company the additional time for filming. They simply don't have the money.

However, in this event, the BCA is footing the bill for the production costs. I believe they can make it a longer race if they really wanted to, only it would still have to get edited into a one hour show.

The BCA gets 4 one hour shows from ESPN for this event. If they wanted to, they could eliminate filming the semi-final matches for the men and women and film entire final matches (longer races) and break them into two shows. Or they could lengthen both semi and final matches and edit the shows into one hour each. There are different options available and a race to 7 is only one option. That's what I believe is going on.

I think it all comes down to dollars and cents and how much the BCA is willing to spend on the production.

Fran

05-18-2002, 11:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> This can't be good for Pool.

If this is any indication of the future of pool.. seeing the silly 7 ball matches, and giving into changing the rules all the time (Sardo, 9 ball on the spot)Two matches to 5 and a single game playoff, if the matches end up tied.

Next you'll see 3 ball one pocket..

How far will the so called powers of pool go to 'lay down' in front of the TV moguls just for the cash.. and not play pool like its is suppose to be played?

I would rather see "NO" pool than the crap that is being televised. In fact, I will not watch any more commercially televised pool until they clean up their act.

I would rather see an Accustats video than watch any more of the idiotic pool commentary, (Hopkins is a joke and Luarence is his clown)

Critical? very.. we could do better without ESPN pool..

Support your local Pool Hall tournaments, support your regional tours, support your leagues. And, stop watching those ESPN sport fillers.......



<hr></blockquote>

The future of televised pool succeeding is in the hands of Matchroom Sports imo.I was flamed (once again) for my post criticizing ESPN's inferior pool telecasts and pumping up the first rate production that these snooker people (MatchroomSports) create.They do a jam-up job presenting pool as we-in-the-know seem to prefer Tom.

REAL POOL.

Totally live played in an arena (constructed over the course of two or three days) specifically for this event,individual backed comfortable seating (NO back killin' bleachers),a dozen different camera views,expert commentary,no commercials until a game is completely over...so on and so on.

Believe me,someone is doing a fantastic job showing our sport to the masses,just not here in the states!

What's wrong with this picture?BS

05-19-2002, 03:27 AM
even though the excuse is that this was for TV, it is very possible that the men's matches might never be shown anyway, given what happens on espn.

and even when games ARE shown, they never show ALL the games anyway. i'll bet not ALL of the final games for the men are ever shown.

Doctor_D
05-19-2002, 06:12 AM
Good morning:

Now that would be the intelligent thing to do !!!

However, the question to be answered is what, if anything other then advertising revenues, is ESPN interested in? Is ESPN interested in promoting a product of quality and substance, or are they marketing a fancy package with little concern for the true quality of the product being offered?

Dr. D.

05-19-2002, 07:27 AM
Hey D,
This is obviously a rhetorical question as the answer is self-evident :-) .

Tom_In_Cincy
05-19-2002, 09:01 AM
We all know what the BCA is.. the representative of the pool industry. NOT THE PLAYERS

Steve Tipton has been the emcee for the WPBA events for last 12 years (maybe more) Steve is/has been associated professionally with promoting and pool events (WPBA and player special events) for a long time.

If he is part of the TV propductions, it is news to me. But, it wouldn't surprize me either.

I knew Steve when I lived im Memphis (I left for Cincinnti in 1987) Steve wasn't involved in the WPBA until the early 90s when he and his wife Pat Tipton (WPBA Secretary for a few years and Pro player herself) made all the WPBA events.

What Steve has been doing with TV contracts for the WPBA is only speculation, I do believe that the WPBA negociates its own TV contract time with ESPN.

If the BCA opts to pay a production company to provide the TV events, then Steve T. might be the one that does this. If so.. maybe that is why the similar race to 7 finals.. and semis..

REGARDLESS, its a poor product. VERY poor.

Tom_In_Cincy
05-19-2002, 09:16 AM
Fran, the below replies are not intended to be directly related to you, but to your comments.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Tom, I don't think ESPN is directly to blame for the race to 7. The only thing they require is that it gets edited into a one hour show. ESPN does not do the filming. An independent production company does the filming. I'm not sure whether ESPN or the production company does the editing. (I don't think ESPN does it, but if they do, that could be a glitch, but I don't think so.)<hr></blockquote>
ESPN is the final word on what it televises. They can cancel its scheduled showings anytime they want.. and have done so many times.. especially when it comes to pool.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>I'm pretty sure it's up to whoever pays the production company to decide how long the race will be. In the case of the WPBA, they can't afford to pay the production company the additional time for filming. They simply don't have the money.<hr></blockquote>

If it is a pool production company, as you suggest, and they are just producing a product, isn't the customer suppose to have a say in the format? I am inclined to blame the BCA and WPBA for this Race to 7 format.. and ESPN

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>However, in this event, the BCA is footing the bill for the production costs. I believe they can make it a longer race if they really wanted to, only it would still have to get edited into a one hour show.<hr></blockquote>
Why would it have to be edited? I still don't have a good answer here. Edited for who? the audience? Or ESPN?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>The BCA gets 4 one hour shows from ESPN for this event. If they wanted to, they could eliminate filming the semi-final matches for the men and women and film entire final matches (longer races) and break them into two shows. Or they could lengthen both semi and final matches and edit the shows into one hour each. There are different options available and a race to 7 is only one option. That's what I believe is going on.<hr></blockquote>

Fran, I think you meant to say the BCA has purchased 4 hour long time slots from ESPN.. ESPN doesn't give anything away..

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>I think it all comes down to dollars and cents and how much the BCA is willing to spend on the production.<hr></blockquote>

Money.. you are 100% correct on this point.

How much do you think the BCA and WPBA will make trying to sell a product that will only be capable of sustaining its current position? and never growing?

Tom_In_Cincy
05-19-2002, 09:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: JimS:</font><hr>
But!!! If we want to have people be able to make a living playing pool....lots of people rather than just the top 5 or so, then pool MUST have the TV $$$$$$$.
<hr></blockquote>

And why are WE suppose to be concerned about Pros making more money?

I guess I am missing something here..

rackmup
05-19-2002, 10:37 AM
This competition begins with two competitors, vying for the title of "Lumberjack Pool Champion of the Great North", using specially made equipment, competing in the toughest of conditions, with minimal television fan support and a small live audience of corn-fed-buck-toothed fisherman and hunters.

Chain Saw 3-ball one pocket SawCue© Event

Cues up to six feet in length, smooth on one side, chainsaw blades on the other, players attempt to slice the most difficult cut shots on aspen-slated pool tables with Simonis Bark-textured cloth that sends the balls down the table with the speed of a modern-day power saw.

Speed tree climbing 3-ball one pocket

Two men race up the 60-foot poles, play a race-to-seven three ball one pocket match on tables mounted atop these precarious perches, and return to earth with lightning speed. First person on the ground then consumes an entire watermelon and chews one whole pouch of RedMan chewing tobacco!

Axe Throwing 3-ball one pocket

With all the precision of a dart board champion, our competitors will aim for the bulls-eye. The dart - a five pound, double-bitted ax, is actually thrown at the table while the competitors attempt to maintain enough concentration to pocket 3 balls in the same pocket!

Don't miss ESPN's exciting new version of an age old sport, sponsored by:

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Viewing times are as follows (all are EST):

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Saturday @ 3:00AM
Sunday @ 5:00AM

(The pool competition may be subjected to cancellation for broadcast of the "French Figure Skating Judge Survival Island" or "NFL Players share their Best Baking Secrets with Martha Stewart.")

Regards,

Ken (agrees...ESPN's pool broadcasts leave a lot to be desired but it's all we have)

05-19-2002, 03:00 PM
Now that's worth watching!!!!! LMAO
Lorri

JimS
05-19-2002, 04:17 PM
I guess Tom, judging from your statement "why should WE be concerned about Pros making more money?" that you don't care if there are increased career opportunities in pool. To hell with the young people who love the game and would love to make a career within the pool world.

"Ask not for whom the bell tolls....."

Tom_In_Cincy
05-19-2002, 06:04 PM
Jim, If I posted my previous message with the intent to EAT our young.. I apologize.. that is not what I meant. I am of the opinion that if the Pros don't care, why should we.

Young pool players learning to play this game is not dependent on the Pros success. Or even Pool being on TV.

Pool playing is only a living for maybe 1% of the entire pool population.. The other 99% its nothing but a recreational game.

And for you to think that I don't care about young people and caring about teaching, and coaching, only tells me that you don't know me very well.

Kato
05-20-2002, 10:58 AM
At high noon eastern time last Saturday, ESPN was showing Bustamante vs. Strickland match from the International Challenge of Champions. Bustamante won the first set and was winning 3-1. I'm making lunch in the kitchen and watching, they go to commercial and it's 3-3!!!!!!!!! AAAAAARRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! I hate that. Pool on T.V. sux. But alas, I am drawn to the torture.

Kato

Doctor_D
05-20-2002, 11:02 AM
Good afternoon:

That incident reminds me of a WPBA Semi-Final match where a major safety battle is taking place. Then, following a commercial, the match is several games ahead with NO reference to who won the safety battles. The more I learn about competitive billiards, coupled with the improvement in my own skills and a desire to learn even more, the less interested I am in watching the matches on ESPN. Thank GOD for Accu-Stats.

Dr. D.