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View Full Version : Corey's US Open shot



Wally_in_Cincy
11-09-2004, 08:39 AM
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html


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)END

One of the best shots I have seen.

For those who missed it. Corey was on the hill against Mika. He tried to play safe on the 3 but fluked it in by accident.

He sets up to shoot the 4 in the corner. Billy Incardona is shouting "What's he gonna do with the 5? What's he gonna do with the 5?"

After the CB came off the rail it went straight for about 2 feet then took a hard left /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif. For those of us who were there we couldn't believe it. Ross and I looked at each other like "Did I really just see that?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Corey was grinning like the cat that ate the canary.

After the match Corey said "I been hittin' 'em pretty good so I thought I would give it a ride."

I tried it on a bar table last night and made it once in 42 tries.

cheesemouse
11-09-2004, 09:03 AM
Wally,

Was the cb out that far? I thought it was closer to the rail...I'm going to give it some trys later today on the same table.

Ives
11-09-2004, 10:17 AM
I recorded the open, havn't had time to watch it yet. Sounds awesome. Ive got so much recorded pool to catch up on, the problem is every time i sit down to watch i start getting jazzed up to shoot and turn the match off to go play. Tried watching while i was shooting but i end up missing everything. My goal is this saturday to just sit down and watch a bunch of pool, and drink a bunch of beer. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Barbara
11-09-2004, 10:54 AM
Wow, he did that shot with that cut to the left?

In Joe Tucker's drill book, he's got a shot almost like that but both the CB and OB are the same distance off the rail. You use extreme low outside english to bring the CB back to the short rail you're shooting from.

Barbara

Rod
11-09-2004, 11:54 AM
Wally ,

I never got to watch that match. Every time I tune in, it's Strickland and Morris. Well I did see the final last night. I think you're pushing the button a little on this one. A tiny difference makes or breaks this shot. Of course the bend will be more noticable on near new cloth. Will that match be shown again?

Rod

JohnnyP
11-09-2004, 12:32 PM
The cueball was about one diamond off the foot rail. I watched it a few times. He hits it hard, and follows through all the way to the joint of his cue.

He made another table length draw shot when he was hill-hill with Efren Reyes. He over hit it, and the cueball came back to the foot rail and bounced another three feet. Again, he follows through to the middle of his cue.

Must be dropping his elbow a little.

SpiderMan
11-09-2004, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html


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)END

One of the best shots I have seen.

For those who missed it. Corey was on the hill against Mika. He tried to play safe on the 3 but fluked it in by accident.

He sets up to shoot the 4 in the corner. Billy Incardona is shouting "What's he gonna do with the 5? What's he gonna do with the 5?"

After the CB came off the rail it went straight for about 2 feet then took a hard left /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif. For those of us who were there we couldn't believe it. Ross and I looked at each other like "Did I really just see that?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Corey was grinning like the cat that ate the canary.

After the match Corey said "I been hittin' 'em pretty good so I thought I would give it a ride."

I tried it on a bar table last night and made it once in 42 tries.
<hr /></blockquote>

On a bigger table with a red dot, you'll make it a lot more. The CB benefits from having a little distance to begin pulling back before it hits the side rail.

But, from your setup, wouldn't it have also worked fine to hit the foot rail first and take the natural path around the table?

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
11-09-2004, 02:03 PM
"But, from your setup, wouldn't it have also worked fine to hit the foot rail first and take the natural path around the table?"

Yes it appeared to me to not have been a requirement of inventing such a bending shot by the layout. I'd find the natural rails or even the inside english reverse up the left side before I'd play this kind of shot under these conditions. Super shot, and maybe laid out differently than presented in the WEI requiring this stroke invention, otherwise smarted pool would have been around or the IE/reverse(IMO) sid

JimS
11-09-2004, 02:32 PM
My listing says that match will be aired on the 18th at noon. Hope so...I"d like to see that shot.

SPetty
11-09-2004, 02:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Will that match be shown again?<hr /></blockquote>Hi Rod,

According to this post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=163305&amp;page =2&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) by Wally, here's the remaining scheduled times:

11/18/04 THU 11:00A - 12:00P Efren Reyes vs. Corey Deuel

11/18/04 THU 12:00P - 01:00P Corey Deuel vs. Mika Immonen

11/19/04 FRI 11:00A - 12:00P Earl Strickland vs. Rodney Morris

11/19/04 FRI 12:00P - 01:00P Gabe Owen vs. Thorsten Hohmann

Notice, though, that schedule has the Corey Deuel vs. Mika Immonen match listed wrong, and it was the Earl Stricland vs. Rodney Morris match. So the actual matches might be listed incorrectly, but the times might be right!

SpiderMan
11-09-2004, 03:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "But, from your setup, wouldn't it have also worked fine to hit the foot rail first and take the natural path around the table?"

Yes it appeared to me to not have been a requirement of inventing such a bending shot by the layout. I'd find the natural rails or even the inside english reverse up the left side before I'd play this kind of shot under these conditions. Super shot, and maybe laid out differently than presented in the WEI requiring this stroke invention, otherwise smarted pool would have been around or the IE/reverse(IMO) sid
<hr /></blockquote>

Maybe Corey had recently been watching the "whuppin' action" video by Buddy Hall.

SpiderMan

Ross
11-09-2004, 04:17 PM
Tom of course has the shot right, but I think the layout was a little more like this setup:

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This may not be exactly right, but I watched it again on TV the other day and I remember he couldn't get the cb to the end rail for a forward route. The cb comes off the side rail pretty straight then does an 80 degree turn as the english finally takes. The shot did not look at all possible before he shot it. It was absolutely amazing.

SpiderMan
11-10-2004, 07:32 AM
Yes, I see - in your diagram the natural path would have a high risk of scratching in the corner.

SpiderMan

Rod
11-10-2004, 10:00 AM
Ross,

I'll wait to see the shot because this doesn't look right. There is more angle than a standard spot shot. Look at the tangent line as well. It has to be at least possible. How well can a spot shot be drawn? I can and have drawn it past the side by a diamond. It has very little speed when it gets there.

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)END

Even this shot would have been plenty good for his position. I'm sure what he had was less angle than made possible c/b reaction of more travel. That and of course a strong stroke. Unless it's taped and even then camera angles might be deceiving. It may be closer to this which puts it in the realm of possibility.

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One thing, and it's no ones fault. I rarely ever see someone put the balls back as they were. You can't because you don't know the exact setup. I'm talking about shooting a known shot. Yes they get it close but not exact. Off just a little changes the shot completely.

Rod

SpiderMan
11-10-2004, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Ross,

I'll wait to see the shot because this doesn't look right. There is more angle than a standard spot shot. Look at the tangent line as well. It has to be at least possible. Rod <hr /></blockquote>

In order for the tangent line to be "possible", perhaps it really went more like this:

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SpiderMan

Ross
11-10-2004, 01:17 PM
Rod the cut may have been a little less than I illustrated. But I do remember that it did not look like the far corner pocket could be avoided for a scratch if he went forward. The commentators also saw no forward path.

But unlike either of your wei diagrams, in Corey's shot the cb did not just come off the side rail at an angle back toward the corner pocket. That's what happens with a bit shallower angle if I shoot it really well. But for Corey, the cb came off the side rail fairly straight across, then hooked at the 80 degree or so angle I mentioned. It looked like one of those trick shots where they have put silicone on the balls. That was what was so jaw-dropping about it.

Hopefully someone will have a tape of the match and can show the ball positions and cb path precisely.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-10-2004, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> ...It looked like one of those trick shots where they have put silicone on the balls....

<font color="blue">yeah it did /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>


Hopefully someone will have a tape of the match and can show the ball positions and cb path precisely.

<font color="blue">I'll check it again tonight but I don't think there was an overhead shot. Will report back tomorrow </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
11-10-2004, 01:47 PM
Hi Ross,

Yes I understand what happened. It's most likely the new cloth, which makes a big difference. On old cloth the ball will catch much earlier and it wouldn't look so dramaitic.
Well wait to see the exact setup if possible.

That other long draw he shot against Efren? Well he knew what was happening. If the draw is to light whitey can go in the side. That's why he over cooked it, to straighten the angle. By doing so he travled to far but that's better than a scratch. Similar to this, same sort of effect just different angles.

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)END

The shot you all describe is like the old Jimmy Moore shot that Massey shoots, I do as well. On new cloth that shot is much easier.

Rod

Eric.
11-10-2004, 01:57 PM
Hi Rod,

I was lucky to sit in the fornt row, inline with the shot. I agree that the new, slippery cloth helped the shot, but Corey did put a hell of a stroke on it. What was impressive was how much the CB accelerated after hitting the rail. That's as pure of a stroke as it gets!


Eric

Rod
11-10-2004, 02:58 PM
Hi Eric,

I'm sure he did put a hell of a stroke on it, it's amazing to watch and looks even more spectacular when you don't see it comming. I'm just trying to put it in perspective.

I'll bet Cory knew it was within limits so he zinged it. Totally cool stuff. So you know it's comming here is one, maybe not quite the stroke to make the 9 but the same effect. The 5 is dead center table. The one is center as well as shown with the c/b straight across from it. You can vary the distance from the end rail as needed, but this is close. START(
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)END

Now the super stroke part is when it does something like this. Which on occasion happenens to me. Fun shot but it looks unreal. START(
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)END It is shot real firm. It has to be or the c/b will bent to quick and hit the 5 or come on this side of it. It can be done on a bar box as well with the heavier ball, just not as much bend.

Rod

Eric.
11-10-2004, 03:31 PM
What impressed me was the sharp angle that the CB took coming off the side rail. It looked like this:

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)END

(I modifyied Ross' WEI pic)

It's a helluva shot to make loading the CB up with that much draw and side spin. I think the match replays on Nov. 18th (?). Ask Wally when...


Eric

Rod
11-11-2004, 01:49 AM
I like to call it three units of english. It's so sweet when you hit it so well it looks effortless. That last little bit with a relaxed stroke is just the nuts!

Rod

Wally_in_Cincy
11-11-2004, 07:11 AM
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

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OK, I watched it again, I diagrammed it, and this is about as close to a perfect diagram as anybody will get and if you guys pick it apart like you usually do I swear I will never diagram another shot /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
11-11-2004, 07:28 AM
this is the shot Corey made at hill-hill against Efren after Efren had to kick-safe and let Corey see a sliver of the 6

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SpiderMan
11-11-2004, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

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OK, I watched it again, I diagrammed it, and this is about as close to a perfect diagram as anybody will get and if you guys pick it apart like you usually do I swear I will never diagram another shot /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Looks so much like my last post to Rod that I won't pick on it at all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif If the original starting layout had matched yours, we probably would have had the same diagram. Keep 'em coming.

SpiderMan

Rod
11-11-2004, 10:51 AM
Thanks Wally,

Now that is night and day difference. I knew there had to be less angle. You guys were making him look like Houdini. LOL

Rod

Rod
11-11-2004, 01:38 PM
Wally I wanted to say we all know your a cad draftsman of sort. So you know we, expect perfection. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

~~~rod, ducking

BCgirl
11-11-2004, 03:15 PM
Wow! Now this shot is impressive. I think there are few players who can pull off such power shots like CD. I would say, though, that to my mind, CD has a tendency to go for the awesome shot when a simpler shot would suffice. In the first case, a carom off the 8 into the corner would be easier, leaving a long, thin, but not too difficult cut on the 5. Or maybe a hard follow shot to the head rail at 1.5 diamonds, and straight down the table. Even getting to mid table would be fine. In both shots, he seems to be dicing with the middle pockets a little too much. There are many cases when CD has been tempted by the super awesome shot and sold out, and he might have been better served in some instances by a more conservative game.

Having said that, both these shots prove that he's one of the best shot makers in the game. There are not too many people who could reliably pound that 4 ball to the rail _and_ get massive amounts of draw, or get so much draw on the second shot. Most players wouldn't even see some of the shots he hits, let alone attempt them.

I really think it's great to see this kind of all-out power game. Just when you think you've seen it all ...

BCgirl

Ross
11-11-2004, 05:21 PM
Oh, thanks a lot Wally -- my credibility is shot now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Like I had any?

When I was setting up the wei for Corey's shot at first I didn't have as much cut angle as I ended up posting. But when I remembered he couldn't really go forward I "misremembered" the reason to be that he was flirting with a scratch in the corner pocket and "misconcluded" that the 4 must have been closer to the right long rail. Even so, I thought he had more cut than you show, but I trust your review of the tape a hell of a lot more than I trust my memory.

In any case, an amazing shot. I'm sorry I didn't get to see the one on the hill against Efren. Corey has more confidence than any player I've ever seen, except maybe for Efren. Neither one of them seem to suffer from any doubts on crucial shots.

nhp
11-11-2004, 05:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In the first case, a carom off the 8 into the corner would be easier, leaving a long, thin, but not too difficult cut on the 5. Or maybe a hard follow shot to the head rail at 1.5 diamonds, and straight down the table. <hr /></blockquote>

ROFL I can't resist quoting this. So you really think a carom off the 8, leaving yourself a long, thin cut (like you said) is easier? Or shooting a shot hard (like you said) with follow? I would say the follow shot is a bit easier than the suicidal play of the carom shot you mentioned. However, certain shots that you may think are too hard, you should know that the shots are easier than you think. That shot with draw Corey did, he didn't even have to hit the cueball hard. He just has the necessary stroke to hit it with enough juice to get back down table for the 5. If you walked up to any pro, and proposed the carom shot with the tough leave over the shot that Corey played, you would get laughed at.

BCgirl
11-11-2004, 11:33 PM
Well, you know, I don't mind anyone laughing. You can hoot and holler all you like, so long as I take the rack. LOL.

I still disagree with you on the shot, though. Unless the diagram was screwed up, which I very much doubt given the educated debate, and the authors, the angle is such that it takes a really hard hit to get the CB, not only to the rail, but back across the table. More than 6 feet on the tangent from a less than 10 degree cut shot. That's power, baby, any way you want to cut it!

As for the carom, the precise position of the 8 is critical, but I'd estimate this as a 70% shot, even for me. The cut is a 90% shot. That's a 63% sequence with no risk of a hook or scratch. The follow shot takes a better stroke, but again, so long as you don't hit the 8, or get right hand english off the head rail, you will have a simple pot. It's the higher percentage shot. In either case, only speed control is needed for position on the 6.

Comparing the shots, it seems to me that Corey's shot has the highest risk of a hook or scratch, and by a large margin. The carom runs the highest risk of not pocketing the 4, which is indeed a sell out. It all depends on how you assess Corey's shot. Wally's experience was 3%. I don't know Wally's game, but you've got a long way to go to convince me that this is a better than 25% sequence for most players.

At the end of the day, if you don't think Corey's shot was a low percentage shot, just go back to his own comment : "I been hittin' 'em pretty good so I thought I would give it a ride." It says it all. If he wasn't confident in his own game, and he's reknowned for awesome power shots, he wouldn't have hung it all out there. Even for him, it was a risk. It was a risk and a shot that people clearly found astonishing. But he's a player, he took the ride, and he was pumped up when he made it, because he knew what he'd just done. All in all, I think you may be underestimating both the shot, the creativity and the awesome execution.

But, I don't totally disagree with you. Many pro's would indeed laugh. They'd laugh at anyone that had the sheer audacity to play that shot instead of playing safe. I'm sure the majority of pro's would have found a way to weld the CB to the 8.

BCgirl

buddha162
11-12-2004, 03:20 AM
Hey I'm not laughing, I think your shot is an option depending on where the 8 lies.

But remember that Corey's shot was made on brand new Simonis, and I would say that even though most pros would not attempt that crazy draw shot in a close match, many would get similar results if the conditions were the same.

Corey has a great freakin stroke, not taking anything away from him but I've seen greater feats performed with low english on new cloth than I can remember.

-Roger

Ross
11-12-2004, 03:13 PM
Did you actually see the shot performed or are you going by the diagram? For some reason the wei diagram makes the shot look much less spectacular than it really was. I've watched pros play for years in tournaments and on Accustats tapes, and I have never seen one get as much action on the ball as this (except for Corey's Mosconi Cup shot).

Qtec
11-12-2004, 10:23 PM
The other day I was plaing a friend and he left me snookered in this pos.
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%AK1V8%BI9D2%EN2D8%HG9X3%ID6C7%PL8C9%Q]1T1%bE2E5%cH1I0%dL3E1

)END


I played the masse, double kissed the 9 and cut in the 8!
Should have seen his face. I,ve been waiting for months to play that shot.

I do agree tho that a new cloth makes all the difference. I also played this shot on a new cloth without any effort.

START(
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)END

Qtec

Wally_in_Cincy
11-13-2004, 08:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> Did you actually see the shot performed or are you going by the diagram? For some reason the wei diagram makes the shot look much less spectacular than it really was. .....<hr /></blockquote>

I had trouble with the arrow that is shown after the cb hit the side rail. As you know, the turn was actually more abrupt than is shown. Almost like a dog-leg as opposed to a curve.

Eric.
11-15-2004, 10:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> Did you actually see the shot performed or are you going by the diagram? For some reason the wei diagram makes the shot look much less spectacular than it really was. .....<hr /></blockquote>

I had trouble with the arrow that is shown after the cb hit the side rail. As you know, the turn was actually more abrupt than is shown. Almost like a dog-leg as opposed to a curve. <hr /></blockquote>

HEy Ross &amp; Wal,

I'm with ya's. The 3 of us were sitting at the ideal spot to see the action on the CB; the WEI drawing doesn't do it justice.


Eric