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Mr Ingrate
11-09-2004, 09:21 AM
Time to start learning the language...

"Hello. Are you a Canadian border guard?"
"Bonjour. Êtes-vous une esti de garde canadienne de frontière?"

"I would like to apply for permanent residence"
"Je voudrais solliciter la résidence permanente"

"I am a political refuge. The reason? My former country has been overrun with morons and rednecks."
"Je suis un chris de refugé politique. La raison? Mon ancien pays a été débordé avec des asti d'innocentes et des batardes."

"Before I step over the border, I have a couple of questions for you."
"Avant que je passe la frontière, j'ai un couple des questions pour vous."

-"Can the Prime Minister say the word 'nuclear'?"
-"Peut le premier ministre dire le mot 'nucléaire'?"

-"Is Canada at war with anyone for no good reason?"
-"Le Canada à la guerre avec n'importe qui, et est-il pour aucune bonne raison?"

-"Do you allow pretend cowboys to be in positions of power?"
-"Laissez-vous des osti de cowboys dans des positions de pouvoire?"

"Yes, no, and no? Fine. Let me the f%#k in."
"Oui, non, et non? Et ben, Laissez-moi rentre la dedans chris de tabarnaque de callis."

Rich R.
11-09-2004, 09:55 AM
Dave, this is too funny. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But, I am starting to study. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Deeman2
11-09-2004, 10:06 AM
Dave,

Very well said. Hey, our loss is your gain. While we will hate to lose Redford, Moore and all the others, you will certainly have people willing to gladly pay the higher taxes and benefit from your healthcare system.

Just beware, they will want to make their movies here, send their kids to school here and sell their products here. They will eventually be telling you how too far to the right your government is.

I hope we can stand the loss....

Deeman

Mr Ingrate
11-09-2004, 10:39 AM
You probably think because the Liberal party is in power in Federal politics that they in some way actually resemble your democrats. While some liberals are not impressed with George Bush (but then who is?) they are still pretty far to the right.

The liberal govenment in BC has been on a massive program of selling off BC's assets and privatizing everything they can, including our system of ferries which most consider part of the highway system.

They actually hold up the Health Care system in your country as a reason to privatize our system. Hah, there are 30 some million people in Canada and all are covered by health care. That is 10 million less than the number of people in your country who have no coverage at all.

I've always been known as a rabid, red necked, Alberta conservative. However, I've mellowed over the years. I believe in Universal Health Care. A catastrophic illness shouldn't drive a family into poverty. It must be looked at as health "assurance" not "insurance".

As noted on a recent bumper sticker, "Don't blame me, I voted NDP".

crawdaddio
11-09-2004, 10:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I believe in Universal Health Care. A catastrophic illness shouldn't drive a family into poverty. It must be looked at as health "assurance" not "insurance".
<hr /></blockquote>

Tap, tap, my friend. Privatization of healthcare, while it does help the economy, severely hurts most working class folks (which used to be the backbone of our economy). Not to mention our elders, who deserve our respect and affordable retirement. It's sad to see that capitalism places the value of profit above the value of human life, which is no comparison, IMO.

Peace
~DC

wolfdancer
11-09-2004, 11:56 AM
Funny stuff,Dave!!! and I agree on the healthcare issue...I read where we are the "only" industrial nation without healthcare?

Deeman2
11-09-2004, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> You probably think because the Liberal party is in power in Federal politics that they in some way actually resemble your democrats. While some liberals are not impressed with George Bush (but then who is?) they are still pretty far to the right.

The liberal govenment in BC has been on a massive program of selling off BC's assets and privatizing everything they can, including our system of ferries which most consider part of the highway system.

They actually hold up the Health Care system in your country as a reason to privatize our system. Hah, there are 30 some million people in Canada and all are covered by health care. That is 10 million less than the number of people in your country who have no coverage at all.

I've always been known as a rabid, red necked, Alberta conservative. However, I've mellowed over the years. I believe in Universal Health Care. A catastrophic illness shouldn't drive a family into poverty. It must be looked at as health "assurance" not "insurance".

As noted on a recent bumper sticker, "Don't blame me, I voted NDP". <hr /></blockquote>

Nooooo! While I am one of the right wingers here, I only wish we had full coverage for all our citizens. Heck, I don't like paying for health care either. I would not hold our health care system up to even Liberia! It stinks, the lawyers and politicians have made it that way. I'll trade you cheap booze for health care any day.

Deeman

hondo
11-09-2004, 12:08 PM
Tap! Tap! Tap! Well said, Deeman.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> You probably think because the Liberal party is in power in Federal politics that they in some way actually resemble your democrats. While some liberals are not impressed with George Bush (but then who is?) they are still pretty far to the right.

The liberal govenment in BC has been on a massive program of selling off BC's assets and privatizing everything they can, including our system of ferries which most consider part of the highway system.

They actually hold up the Health Care system in your country as a reason to privatize our system. Hah, there are 30 some million people in Canada and all are covered by health care. That is 10 million less than the number of people in your country who have no coverage at all.

I've always been known as a rabid, red necked, Alberta conservative. However, I've mellowed over the years. I believe in Universal Health Care. A catastrophic illness shouldn't drive a family into poverty. It must be looked at as health "assurance" not "insurance".

As noted on a recent bumper sticker, "Don't blame me, I voted NDP". <hr /></blockquote>

Nooooo! While I am one of the right wingers here, I only wish we had full coverage for all our citizens. Heck, I don't like paying for health care either. I would not hold our health care system up to even Liberia! It stinks, the lawyers and politicians have made it that way. I'll trade you cheap booze for health care any day.

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman2
11-09-2004, 12:13 PM
Hondo,

Man, it frightens me when we agree. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Deeman

Wally_in_Cincy
11-09-2004, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
...I don't like paying for health care either....

<font color="blue">If it is nationalized you will pay even more in the long run. </font color>

I would not hold our health care system up to even Liberia!

<font color="blue">geez you sound like Gayle /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think our system is pretty good, though certainly not perfect. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman2
11-09-2004, 01:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
...I don't like paying for health care either....

<font color="blue">If it is nationalized you will pay even more in the long run. </font color>

No, Wally.

I won't pay more for it, our kids will pay more for it.

I would not hold our health care system up to even Liberia!

<font color="blue">geez you sound like Gayle /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My goal in life is to sound like Gayle and like her I won't dignify your comment with facts! Even sound like her, It's getting scarier and scarier, Wally...

I think our system is pretty good, though certainly not perfect. </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

I think it is heading downhill without any control over costs, etc. It is easy to say the market will take care of it but there are good, hard working people out there without any healthcare and that's wrong, even on the right side...

Deeman
not flip flopping, just being reasonable...

hondo
11-09-2004, 01:32 PM
Good for you maybe. You guessed it. Once again I
am disappointed in your shallow answer. You have
got to be well off because a poor man wouldn't
be as tight or as insensitive to people's problems
as you are.

I think our system is pretty good, though certainly not perfect. </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Mr Ingrate
11-09-2004, 01:45 PM
Wally,

I was off on my figures. My wife informs me that the latest figures are 46 million people without health care in the US.

And you DO have universal health care - for those 65 and over.

What a great plan. Let the government run an insurance progam for the portion of the public that will make the most claims while letting private insurance companies "cherry pick" the young and healthy to ensure they make billions of dollars of profits.

Meanwhile 46 million have no health care at all.

I guess it's a pretty good plan .... if you own an insurance company.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-09-2004, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>

.. You have
got to be well off because a poor man wouldn't
be as tight or as insensitive to people's problems
as you are.
<hr /></blockquote>

I am not well off but I am not poor. If I were poor at the age of 47 I would consider myself quite a failure.

I understand some folks are poor due to health problems. I know some and they should be helped. But barring that, there is no excuse to be poor in this country.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-09-2004, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>

I think it is heading downhill without any control over costs, etc.

<font color="blue">People have been saying this for at least 30 years. </font color>

It is easy to say the market will take care of it but there are good, hard working people out there without any healthcare and that's wrong, even on the right side...

<font color="blue">The fact is many of those people choose not to have health insurance. Self-employed etc. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

How's this for a possible solution. Health ins. should be like car ins. It should pay for catastrophic illness but not for a trip to the doc. Make your out-of-pocket expenses tax-deductible even for folks who normally could not itemize.

Your car ins. does not pay for oil changes or a new transmission but it will pay for a major incident.

Mr Ingrate
11-09-2004, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
Nooooo! While I am one of the right wingers here, I only wish we had full coverage for all our citizens. Heck, I don't like paying for health care either. I would not hold our health care system up to even Liberia! It stinks, the lawyers and politicians have made it that way. I'll trade you cheap booze for health care any day.
Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

I've always thought that there are some things that reasonable men can agree on even though they are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

While I still dislike "big brother" there are some social programs that that must be run by government and should be endorsed by all parties. Health care is the most important one.

The US health care lobby is very powerful and will do their damndest to block Universal Health care.

Mark my words, sometime soon, an election campaign will be won or lost on a single issue - health care.

Mr Ingrate
11-09-2004, 02:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
How's this for a possible solution. Health ins. should be like car ins. It should pay for catastrophic illness but not for a trip to the doc. Make your out-of-pocket expenses tax-deductible even for folks who normally could not itemize.

Your car ins. does not pay for oil changes or a new transmission but it will pay for a major incident. <hr /></blockquote>

Wally,

It is not, and cannot be, like car insurance. Insurance companies do not have to sell car insurance to anyone, especially high risk people.

If you have a history of heart disease in your family, even though you live a healthy life style, you could be denied coverage. In fact, if you have a pre-existing condition, you may not be covered for it.

Also, if I'm working for a company there is a special rate negotiated with the insurance company. However, if I am self employed, I can't get the same rate or even close.

And if the company goes out of business I've can't even use cobra for bridging until I find another job. Of course, if you want to retire before age 65, you'll probably be out of luck for health care coverage.

Nope, as I said before, it is health "assurance" not "insurance" and universal is the only way to go to ensure that everyone is covered. I'm not adverse to paying a user fee for visits to my GP.

The US pays more per capita for health care with less coverage than most single payer systems.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-09-2004, 02:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr>

The US pays more per capita for health care with less coverage than most single payer systems. <hr /></blockquote>

But what about the quality? I have heard stories of long waits for simple procedures. How long would it take on average to get a cat-scan for a herniated disc. Or an angiogram for someone with angina? Or a hernia operation.

For the record, I'm not aruing, I am honestly curious. I just have a knee-jerk reaction to the feds taking over anything because they usually screw it up worse.

SPetty
11-09-2004, 02:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> Insurance companies do not have to sell car insurance to anyone, especially high risk people.<hr /></blockquote>In most US states, yes, they do. It's called an "Assigned Risk" pool. It's a high risk pool. No insurer wants these people, but it is the law that these people must have insurance, so the insurance companies are required to take their fair share of the high risk people from the high risk people pool.

Mr Ingrate
11-09-2004, 03:05 PM
Certainly, there have been wait times for some procedures. When I had blood in my stool, I got a colonoscopy immediately and had my colon cancer operation immediately.

Angiogram procedures are done immediately also. There have been some wait times for hip replacement and certainly for elective surgeries. Most of it due to a huge austerity program by the federal and provincial governments over the past while.

Now that they have racked up huge surpluses, the purse strings are again loosed and wait times are fast dissappearing.

Now as for the US - My wife works extensively in the US with Medicare, Medicade, HMO's, and PPO's getting coding and coverage for medical devices and procedures. It could take months to get an approval from your HMO and going out of network could be an impossibility. People die waiting for HMO approval as their first inclination is to refuse. The appeals process takes forever. Of course, if you can pay cash, you can get a procedure done right away. Just don't expect your insurance company to reimburse you in your life time.

Mr Ingrate
11-09-2004, 03:09 PM
Susan,

I stand corrected. Bet the high riskers don't pay the same premium.

When it comes to health assurance, everyone should pay the same rate.

SpiderMan
11-09-2004, 03:29 PM
Is that not the case with the Canadian "assurance" program? I realize it's hearsay, but is there no truth to the stories of Canadians who choose to go "outside the system" and pay cash to avoid long waits for government-controlled medical treatment?

If the condition is not life-threatening, but merely affects quality of life (ie, knee arthroscopy or similar), I had read that the waits are enormously long.

SpiderMan

Ross
11-09-2004, 03:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> ...

I understand some folks are poor due to health problems. I know some and they should be helped. But barring that, there is no excuse to be poor in this country. <hr /></blockquote>

Wally, I think this is a myth. It is true that if you have above average intelligence and can go to college or start a business you can probably make it fine in this country barring some unlucky breaks. But say one-third or so of our country's population are fine, upstanding citizens but they are not "book smart." They struggle to get by in high school, and college is out of the question. They used to work on assembly lines in our auto factories, or in the case of my home town in Texas, they did shift work for Alcoa Aluminum. Because of union bargaining (I know unions also did bad things as well) they were paid decent salaries and were able live the American dream (buy a house and a car, put away savings, send their kids to college if they wanted to go, otherwise give them a nest-egg to start out with.)

Today, things are different. Unions have declined. Manufacturing jobs have gone overseas. Gas pumps don't need attendents. Technology can do much of what men were needed for before. The few manual labor jobs we still have, have to compete with the low wages being paid in China. In NC, where I live, we have lost 10's of thousands of textile jobs. And the ones that are left pay crap. I play pool with a guy who does shift work in one of the few textile jobs left, and he makes about $8/hour, or 16k per year. Another guy I play pool with is a self-employed carpenter with two young children. Very hard worker, salt of the earth. He has his own 2 or 3 man crew. Still he has no health insurance and cannot afford to buy any, so he just doesn't go to the doctor when he needs to. He sweats it when his chidren need to go, but he makes it happen.

The mistake that some conservatives make, IMO, is that when they think of the poor they only picture a person on welfare or a person who doesn't want to work. In reality, in the US today, welfare reform has worked and we have fewer and fewer people in that category. But most men and women in the US that want to make it by working hard at an honest manual labor job are struggling mightily.

And it's getting worse, not better. Unfortunately, Bush has NO plans to help these people except the piddling tax cuts (100 bucks?) they will get at their income levels. And Bush's MSA's aren't going to get them health care, because they don't have anything left to put into them. I don't think he gets it either.

But people like you and me will do fine. So screw'em, huh?

Cueless Joey
11-09-2004, 03:46 PM
I have cousins who live near Winnipeg.
My cousin had a lump in her breast ( this happened years ago). She had to wait for months before she can get looked-up. My aunt had to go through the hoops so my cousin can get looked-up much earlier.
My cousins hate Canada but they have pretty much settled there so they are not leaving. They have a joke going. In Canada, if you pass gas, you get taxed. They told us, you even get taxed very heavily for owning a home.

wolfdancer
11-09-2004, 05:33 PM
When they finish building highway 69 from Brownsville,Tx to the Canadian border....I suggest that they put distance markers at the Mexican Border.........beginning with California 2864 mi
"Bonjour Amigo"

Popcorn
11-09-2004, 06:41 PM
I am not sure you can even go outside the system if you want to there. It is interesting, if you travel around Europe you see people with all kind of things, that were not properly treated. My sister-in-law brought her son to the US for treatment after he fell skiing, she lives in Germany. They offered no physical therapy at all. They have the attitude there in medicine, if you are not going to die from it, that's good enough. So what if you will be limping the rest of your life. You see children with all kinds of things like deformities and so on, that would be treated here.

Rich R.
11-10-2004, 04:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> But what about the quality? I have heard stories of long waits for simple procedures. <hr /></blockquote>
Wally, there are long waits in our system too.
I have waited as long as 3 months, just to get an appointment with my orthopedic doctor.

My neighbor was told, last week, that she needed total knee replacement. The doctor is totally booked and can not do the surgery until sometime next year. That is a very long time to wait, when you are having a lot of pain, just walking.

I think you will have long waits, at times, with any health care system. The main problem is that a lot of people in this country do not have any health insurance coverage and, therefore, their wait may be permanent.

eg8r
11-10-2004, 06:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Nooooo! While I am one of the right wingers here, I only wish we had full coverage for all our citizens. Heck, I don't like paying for health care either. <hr /></blockquote> Don't be blinded by the lie that there is free Health care in Canada or anywhere else. They pay for it in taxes.

eg8r

silverbullet
11-10-2004, 06:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> ...

I understand some folks are poor due to health problems. I know some and they should be helped. But barring that, there is no excuse to be poor in this country. <hr /></blockquote>

Wally, I think this is a myth. It is true that if you have above average intelligence and can go to college or start a business you can probably make it fine in this country barring some unlucky breaks. But say one-third or so of our country's population are fine, upstanding citizens but they are not "book smart." They struggle to get by in high school, and college is out of the question. They used to work on assembly lines in our auto factories,
But people like you and me will do fine. So screw'em, huh? <hr /></blockquote>

A case in point, which is representative of more than you know.

My son was educated (a 2 year IT degree with some computer certs) and certainly had higher than average intelligence, but was constantly struggling. He did not want to leave the town he grew up in, which is about 150,000 population. He did every job conceivable, hours got cut, he did contract work for computer stuff and still was not quite making it and forget about insurance, he was lucky to pay his rent. But he had no kids, so no ties and moved from virginia to Florida, where he got a decent, albeit somewhat low paying job. He did get insurance and has good leave time, because he works for the state department, and he is now moving up the ladder, but he had to move to get that. At less than 35,000 a year, he considers himself now to be fortunate, at least able to get by, have a few luxuries, insurance, even in Palm Beach, where the cost of living is fairly high. But there are others all over the country, more educated than he, but not nearly as fortunate.

There are cities all over the country like that, people who are intelligent, with college degrees and cannot find even a job for which they are overqualified. Ross mentioned the blue collar folks and those who did not go to college, but it is a problem for many.

Unlike some, I do not blame this on Bush any more than I credit Clinton with the economic boom we experienced in the 90's.But it appears that many blame or credit the president for any and everything that happens when they are in office, even things they have little control over. Sure, we could give more aid to the poor, but even under democratic presidents, in spite of all the programs, we had many who fell through the cracks who lived in abject poverty and still do, regardless of which party is in the white house.And Dave, yes, the elderly get medicaire and SS (how much depends on how high paying the job that they worked), but it not sufficient, and even before their drug benefits were cut, we had under clinton and every other president, just about, elderly living in abject poverty.The govt does a sh**ty job in caring for the poor. They were probably better off when the taxes were much lower and communities could afford to help them. The feds do a botched up job, take our taxes and put it into the deep pockets of the politicians.

We had a period of growth, then the economic 'bubble' burst around 2000, when Bush was coming into office. What follows the burst of the bubble is recession. Even the most liberal book I read by a liberal economist, did not cast the blame of the recession on Bush. He thought that Bush might have been able to make the recession a little less severe, but even if you believe that, we have congress too, and no one even really knows if it is true, and considering how botched up the system already was, bush could have not even made a dent, IMO.

sb

Wally_in_Cincy
11-10-2004, 06:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>
I play pool with a guy who does shift work in one of the few textile jobs left, and he makes about $8/hour, or 16k per year. Another guy I play pool with is a self-employed carpenter with two young children. Very hard worker, salt of the earth. He has his own 2 or 3 man crew. Still he has no health insurance and cannot afford to buy any, so he just doesn't go to the doctor when he needs to. He sweats it when his chidren need to go, but he makes it happen.

<font color="blue">I play with 3 guys who are self-employed carpet and flooring installers. 2 of them make a lot more than I do and the other one who has been doing it for 25 years will probably be a millionaire when he retires.

so it can be done. </font color>


...Bush has NO plans to help these people...

<font color="blue">What should he do? </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

hondo
11-10-2004, 06:32 AM
Are you for real? Lord, I used to be engaged to a
girl from Cincy. Thank God she wasn't like you.
Come to think of it she moved there from Pittsburg.

I understand some folks are poor due to health problems. I know some and they should be helped. But barring that, there is no excuse to be poor in this country. <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
11-10-2004, 06:43 AM
My mother worked all her life and never had crap.
You are an idiot, Wally. There I have said it and
I feel good. It's refreshing to see conservatives
like Dee and Dave debating you. If they didn't
I'd wonder how sane the right is.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>
I play pool with a guy who does shift work in one of the few textile jobs left, and he makes about $8/hour, or 16k per year. Another guy I play pool with is a self-employed carpenter with two young children. Very hard worker, salt of the earth. He has his own 2 or 3 man crew. Still he has no health insurance and cannot afford to buy any, so he just doesn't go to the doctor when he needs to. He sweats it when his chidren need to go, but he makes it happen.

<font color="blue">I play with 3 guys who are self-employed carpet and flooring installers. 2 of them make a lot more than I do and the other one who has been doing it for 25 years will probably be a millionaire when he retires.

so it can be done. </font color>


...Bush has NO plans to help these people...

<font color="blue">What should he do? </font color>

<hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
11-10-2004, 06:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

...They used to work on assembly lines in our auto factories, or in the case of my home town in Texas, they did shift work for Alcoa Aluminum. Because of union bargaining (I know unions also did bad things as well) they were paid decent salaries and were able live the American dream (buy a house and a car, put away savings, send their kids to college if they wanted to go, otherwise give them a nest-egg to start out with.)...

<hr /></blockquote>

On the flip side, I used to be confused by what I saw when I was a teenager. My mom and my sister were both teachers. My sister had a Master's degree. They made ok money but not great.

Then there were the guys that worked for GM or in a steel mill or some other union shop, possibly with an 8th grade education, doing what amounted to menial labor, pulling down twice what my mom made, buying campers, boats, and big houses.

The bar where I play pool now was called the Chevy Bar until 1983. That's when the GM plant across the street closed. I used to watch the second shift guys come in on their 7 pm break. They would eat a sandwich and drink 2 quarts of beer and go back to work. Then they wondered why the plant closed.

So maybe in a strange way it is more fair now than it was then.

Wally &lt;~~ devil's advocate, awaiting incoming RPG's

Wally_in_Cincy
11-10-2004, 06:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> My mother worked all her life and never had crap.
You are an idiot, Wally.

<font color="blue">I beg to differ.

Sorry if my viewpoint offends you. Live with it. </font color>

There I have said it and
I feel good.

<font color="blue">I am happy for you. </font color>
It's refreshing to see conservatives
like Dee and Dave debating you.

<font color="blue">Dave is not a conservative. </font color>

If they didn't
I'd wonder how sane the right is.

<font color="blue">Can't speak for the others, but I am perfectly sane. Thanks for caring. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
11-10-2004, 06:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You are an idiot, Wally. <hr /></blockquote> Well that was not nice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r

Qtec
11-10-2004, 08:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I am not well off but I am not poor. If I were poor at the age of 47 I would consider myself quite a failure. <font color="blue"> Ok you are now a success. What if your employer went bust and you lost your job. Being 47 , you might find it difficult to find another job doing what you are doing now. Worst case scenario, you cant find a job, you have to sell your house move into an appartment and spend your savings. You are now poor. Are you also now a failure? Was it your fault? Sh8t happens Wally, life can be cruel.
If a bank robber kills 3 security guards and gets away with 5 million, is he a success?
Its easy to ignore poverty when you think the poor deserve what they get, the "its their own fault" attitude. There will always be poor people, the only question is, how poor do you allow them to be.color]

I understand some folks are poor due to health problems. I know some and they should be helped. But barring that, there is no excuse to be poor in this country. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> Wally, dont you know that Capitalism depends on most of the population being poor? Its an absolute neccessity! </font color>

Q

Wally_in_Cincy
11-10-2004, 08:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> ...What if your employer went bust and you lost your job. Being 47 , you might find it difficult to find another job doing what you are doing now. <hr /></blockquote>

I have a marketable skill. I worked hard to get it. I could find another job in a week. If not I would find something else. The jobs are out there for someone who wants to work.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Wally, dont you know that Capitalism depends on most of the population being poor? Its an absolute neccessity!

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Would you care to explain that? It seems to me if there were no poor people everybody would have more to spend and the economy would be better overall.

Mr Ingrate
11-10-2004, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
It's refreshing to see conservatives
like Dee and Dave debating you.
<font color="blue">Dave is not a conservative. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Wally,

There are many conservative values that I believe in. Having lived and worked in both Canada and the U.S. I think we have too many useless social welfare programs and need to practice fiscal restraint. I think we are overtaxed or unfairly taxed. Hell, who likes paying taxes anyway?

However, I also think that some things should be controlled by government and not left to the private sector. Very specifically, health care and education. I also believe in separation of church and state. While I'm not an athiest, I believe that "religion" and "god" are mutually exclusive.

Saying I'm not a conservative tends to stick a liberal label on me. Asking people to follow party dogma forces a "them against us" mentality and does not foster "reasonable men".

highsea
11-10-2004, 11:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> Wally, dont you know that Capitalism depends on most of the population being poor? Its an absolute neccessity! </font color>

Q <hr /></blockquote>Hahaha. Good one Q. I guess the US is a failed attempt at capitalism, because we have the largest and most technically advanced economy in the world. Also the second highest per capita GDP and one of the lowest per capita percentages of the population below the poverty line.

hondo
11-10-2004, 11:56 AM
My mother was born with a crippled leg, club foot,
and only 3 fingers on each hand.
She graduated from high school during WWII.
My father deserted her when I was three.
She worked in a dry cleaners for 30 years, minimum
wage , no benefits.
She always paid her bills but whenever birthdays
or Christmas rolled around she went to the finance
companies to borrow money for presents.
Finally she got too sick to work and then died.
I was able to move her into a house we had and help
her out some once I got a teaching job.
I'm sorry but when I hear blow hards who know nothing
about how common folk live spout off it makes me
want to puke. I'm sorry I called Wally an idiot, egg.
What the hell would you call him?

wolfdancer
11-10-2004, 12:12 PM
YES, some folks are actually poor!!!
Look at the level of poverty in this country; 40% of all households are really in poverty. The official figure is ridiculous. The official figure says if you're family of four according to the Department of Labor and you make $19,000 a year gross, you're not poor. 40% of our nation's households live poor in the richest country of the world that has more billionaires than any other country, whose 1% of the richest people has financial wealth equivalent to the bottom 95%. When you go into low-income areas of our country such as here in Washington, D.C., there is no rule of law. There is only rapacity,predatory behavior, anarchy. People can't even cash their checks without paying 5% to the cashing-in stores. Predatory lending, landlord abuses, lesser municipal services in the poorer areas, crumbling housing, libraries that fall apart, consumer exploitation, dumping grounds for shoddy merchandise, including dirty meat and poultry.
(Ralph Nader's "farewell" speech....he gives equal credit to both the Democratic and Republican parties).

Wally_in_Cincy
11-10-2004, 12:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> My mother was born with a crippled leg, club foot,
and only 3 fingers on each hand.
She graduated from high school during WWII.
My father deserted her when I was three.
She worked in a dry cleaners for 30 years, minimum
wage , no benefits.
<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy from previous post:</font><hr>
I understand some folks are poor due to health problems. I know some and <font color="red">they should be helped. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>
I'm sorry but when I hear blow hards who know nothing
about how common folk live spout off it makes me
want to puke. <hr /></blockquote>

I would consider myself "common folk"

I would not object for an instant if my tax dollars went to someone like your mother.

wolfdancer
11-10-2004, 12:41 PM
Dave, this thread has somehow evolved from simple Border repartee, to national health care, union excesses, conservatives vs liberalism, etc....somewhere in the middle, I got lost.
But I was reminded of our league's chief ref, Emma Grant, whose animated rulings were looked forward to "Watch Emma call it"
Anyway, highway 69 from the Mexican border to the Canadian border should solve all the immigration problems....but I'm not sure what it will do for the respective IQ's for each country.
While checking repartee (Google) I found that "Repartee is the name of a U.K. cross-dresser's magazine....which gives new meaning to the phrase "I'd like to get into your pants"
( I think I've covered every known pun, so far)

hondo
11-10-2004, 01:15 PM
Thank you. My point is that there are thousands in
this country who want to work, who don't want
handouts. Who are struggling to make ends meet,
and if they get sick, are screwed. A lot of
people don't have "marketable skills" through
no fault of their own. If I've been too harsh
with you, I apologize.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> My mother was born with a crippled leg, club foot,
and only 3 fingers on each hand.
She graduated from high school during WWII.
My father deserted her when I was three.
She worked in a dry cleaners for 30 years, minimum
wage , no benefits.
<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy from previous post:</font><hr>
I understand some folks are poor due to health problems. I know some and <font color="red">they should be helped. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>
I'm sorry but when I hear blow hards who know nothing
about how common folk live spout off it makes me
want to puke. <hr /></blockquote>

I would consider myself "common folk"

I would not object for an instant if my tax dollars went to someone like your mother. <hr /></blockquote>

Candyman
11-10-2004, 01:15 PM
I'm kinda liking what I'm hearing and may move to Canada. Are there any plans to have universal coverage on liability and auto collision insurance? I think somebody else should be responsable for this, since the premiums have gotten so high.

eg8r
11-10-2004, 01:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...libraries that fall apart,... <hr /></blockquote> This one doesn't not seem to fit the rest of the complaints. Nothing good or bad, about me singling it out, I just thought this was interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
(Ralph Nader's "farewell" speech....he gives equal credit to both the Democratic and Republican parties).
<hr /></blockquote> You are correct, however he has thanked Democratic governments for the majority of these.

eg8r

Mr Ingrate
11-10-2004, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Candyman:</font><hr> I'm kinda liking what I'm hearing and may move to Canada. Are there any plans to have universal coverage on liability and auto collision insurance? I think somebody else should be responsable for this, since the premiums have gotten so high. <hr /></blockquote>

No one has yet picked up that I'm routing potential immigrants to Quebec, a place that may, or may not, really be Canadian ... but that is a whole other can of worms.

My opinion on Quebec separatism is expressed in the Kokanee beer commercial where the three babes are being tested as potential sasquach hunters by the ranger and his associate Arnold. Looking at the girls in skimpy bikini's, Arnold says, "But I thought the sasquatch couldn't swim". The ranger answers, "Dare to dream, Arnold, dare to dream."

Quebec can't swim on its own, but I still dare to dream.

highsea
11-10-2004, 03:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr>No one has yet picked up that I'm routing potential immigrants to Quebec...<hr /></blockquote>Actually I did notice that Dave. I thought it was just because you knew French. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Actually I think BC is much nicer that Quebec, though I did have some good times in Montreal. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

But I'd take BC first, preferably somewhere north of Queen Charlotte, much better fishing up there...

Mr Ingrate
11-10-2004, 03:34 PM
There are a lot of Americans living on Vancouver Island and its surrounding islands. Large population in Victoria and Sydney (both cities on Vancouver Island)and in the City of Vancouver (on the mainland). A tad confusing.

What I've found a bit disconcerting, and so has my wife, is the amount of anti-American sentiment here, although I've never sensed that from any Canadian who has lived and worked in the US. I guess its just easier to form an opinion when you don't have first hand knowledge.

Of course, Bush seems to be almost uniformly disliked. I just didn't expect that attitude to be directed to individual Americans.

My French linguistic abilities consist of High School French classes where we spent our time mis-pronouncing words like icky, three-beans, and mon-sewer.

wolfdancer
11-10-2004, 03:40 PM
Be careful what you say about Quebec....I have it on good authority, that Dave is the head of the Quebec seperationist movement

highsea
11-10-2004, 03:55 PM
I don't know, but I'd be able to tell you if I saw him drive a car. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have no trouble in BC, but driving in Montreal was a nightmare. Man, if you don't know what you are doing, they let you know right now! And they have wierd traffic signals, like a flashing straight ahead green arrow. It means "left turn has priority". Who the h*** ever heard of that one? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Candyman
11-10-2004, 04:02 PM
That sounds like a cool commercial. Is there a link where a video is available?

Gayle in MD
11-11-2004, 09:22 AM
Throwing facts at a right winger is about as effective as buying an electric toothbrush for a mountain man.

Gayle in Md.
If I gave you any facts, you'd only say the author was trying to run for president. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
11-11-2004, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Throwing facts at a right winger is about as effective as buying an electric toothbrush for a mountain man.<hr /></blockquote>

I suppose this is why you rarely present them.

Mr Ingrate
11-11-2004, 11:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Candyman:</font><hr> That sounds like a cool commercial. Is there a link where a video is available? <hr /></blockquote>

They are cool commercials and Kokanee is "the beer out here". I don't know of any video link for the commercials but here is a link to their web site.

http://www.kokaneebeer.com/ca/tour/tour.html

Mr Ingrate
11-11-2004, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dave, this thread has somehow evolved from simple Border repartee, to national health care, union excesses, conservatives vs liberalism, etc....somewhere in the middle, I got lost.
But I was reminded of our league's chief ref, Emma Grant, whose animated rulings were looked forward to "Watch Emma call it"
Anyway, highway 69 from the Mexican border to the Canadian border should solve all the immigration problems....but I'm not sure what it will do for the respective IQ's for each country.
While checking repartee (Google) I found that "Repartee is the name of a U.K. cross-dresser's magazine....which gives new meaning to the phrase "I'd like to get into your pants"
( I think I've covered every known pun, so far)
<hr /></blockquote>
Jack,

As far as threads getting off topic, this one isn't bad. My ulitimate plan is to turn this thread into a movement for BC to leave Canada and become the 51st state ... once the US wises up and votes in universal health care and gets its dollar back up there. My retirement funds are in US dollars and I've lost almost 30% of my income due to the Bush admin letting the dollar drop.

Bone-sour moan amy (thought I'd lapse into my official second language to say goodbye). Actually I speak a number of languages besides English ... cobol, fortran, basic, and American.

wolfdancer
11-11-2004, 01:27 PM
I don't know, Dave, we're leaning towards Puerto Rico, since Spanish is rapidly becoming the second most popular language here....
And, while I shouldn't give away our defense policy to a foreign national....Canada is our "human shield", in case the Russkies attack...how would it look if we let em shoot up one of our states?

silverbullet
11-11-2004, 02:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr>


Saying I'm not a conservative tends to stick a liberal label on me. Asking people to follow party dogma forces a "them against us" mentality and does not foster "reasonable men". <hr /></blockquote>

tap tap

silverbullet
11-11-2004, 02:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> My mother was born with a crippled leg, club foot,
and only 3 fingers on each hand.
She graduated from high school during WWII.
My father deserted her when I was three.
She worked in a dry cleaners for 30 years, minimum
wage , no benefits.
She always paid her bills but whenever birthdays
or Christmas rolled around she went to the finance
companies to borrow money for presents.
Finally she got too sick to work and then died.
I was able to move her into a house we had and help
her out some once I got a teaching job.
I'm sorry but when I hear blow hards who know nothing
about how common folk live spout off it makes me
want to puke. I'm sorry I called Wally an idiot, egg.
What the hell would you call him? <hr /></blockquote>

Hondo,

I am very sorry your mother had to work that hard, with her physical problems too. But, with all of her work, I bet she regretted nothing because of you and how you turned out.

sb

hondo
11-12-2004, 06:39 AM
Thanks for the kind words. Looking back I think I
got too personal but all that talk implying that
anybody can be sucessful if they try hard enough
got my dander up. There are people out there trapped
in dead end jobs often because of bad luck, poor
choices, limited i.q. ,etc. Lord knows I see it a lot
in West Virginia.

Gayle in MD
11-12-2004, 08:40 AM
If you live in a country where seniors must do without food in order to buy medication it can't be even "Pretty good" IMO. We are being robbed by the Pharmaceutical Industry thanks to Little Bushy, and those greedy "Big Business" Corporations that Ed is so fond of.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
11-12-2004, 08:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
We are being robbed by the Pharmaceutical Industry thanks to Little Bushy, and those greedy "Big Business" Corporations that Ed is so fond of.
<hr /></blockquote> You are getting absolutely comical now. Little Bushy is not responsible for the situation. We were in this situation long before Bush (your electable daddy /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) came to power.

As far as me being fond of Big Business, there is nothing greedy about running a business with the intent of making profit. If you are so intent on helping those poor elderly who cannot eat because of their medical expenses (which is bull and you know it, but you rather try and exploit someone), then cough up your tax break from daddy Bush and donate it to the elderly.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
11-12-2004, 08:52 AM
Excellent post Sir, I agree completely. Soon, given Little Bushy's plans, they will be able to sew scalpels up inside of us and we won't even be able to sue them for it!


Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

eg8r
11-12-2004, 08:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There are people out there trapped
in dead end jobs often because of bad luck, poor
choices, limited i.q. ,etc. <hr /></blockquote> You are correct (except I still cringe when you say bad luck), but how is that the government's business. I really don't have any problem with helping those in need, but that is not the government's (I am referring to federal) business. That is up to the states to handle the well being of their own people.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
11-12-2004, 09:13 AM
That's about it Walley, and when I do, they are overlooked anyway. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Gayle

Wally_in_Cincy
11-12-2004, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> If you live in a country where seniors must do without food in order to buy medication it can't be even "Pretty good" IMO. We are being robbed by the Pharmaceutical Industry thanks to Little Bushy, and those greedy "Big Business" Corporations that Ed is so fond of.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Are you aware that "Little Bushy" recently signed a law that pays for seniors' meds?

Gayle in MD
11-12-2004, 09:25 AM
Again, you continue to put words in my mouth. Where in my post did I state that I was intent on helping the elderly in the first place. The discussion was about the efficacy of our healthe care system.

Making a profit and robbing the American people is a much different thing.

Bush has failed in four years to do anything at all about Health Care. Where is your proof that this statement is untrue.

Frankly, having heard now your theories regarding evolution, I no longer find it productive to debate issues with you. While I like you, we are certainly miles, no lightyears away from one another in our basic premises.

Good luck friend.
Gayle in Md.

Deeman2
11-12-2004, 09:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Excellent post Sir, I agree completely. Soon, given Little Bushy's plans, they will be able to sew scalpels up inside of us and we won't even be able to sue them for it!


Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Gayle,

Where has Bush stated that we should not be able to sue a doctor for sewing up medical instruments into people? I believe he is in favor of limiting awards to reasonable levels. If you have an instrument left in you. The hospital/doctor should remove it and pay damages. However, if they pay you $25,000,000 it does not cost business, it costs the consumer, us, the people who pay the bills. Ifa person is permanently disabled, he/she should have a large compensation but we all know of the distorted settlements for minor items that have made lawyers rich. If you don't believe we need some control on this you are not reasonable. Where has Bush advocated not allowing us to sue?
</font color>

Deeman

Gayle in MD
11-12-2004, 09:30 AM
No, I am not, must be very recently, only took him four years to get around to it huh? Do you happen to have a link on this.

thanks,
Gayle,

hondo
11-12-2004, 09:31 AM
Don't cringe, eg; I'd hate to see you cringe.
I know, Republicans make their own luck.


(except I still cringe when you say bad luck),

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
11-12-2004, 09:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> No, I am not, must be very recently, only took him four years to get around to it huh? Do you happen to have a link on this.

thanks,
Gayle, <hr /></blockquote>

In December 2003, President Bush signed a new Medicare law that will provide 40 million seniors and people with disabilities with better benefits and more options for the first time in Medicare's history. The new prescription drug benefit will empower seniors and Americans with disabilities to choose the health care coverage that is best for them.
Beginning this past June, millions of seniors started saving on their prescription medicines with Medicare-approved discount cards. Nearly 4.2 million seniors are already using their cards to save money on their medicines. In addition to these savings, low-income seniors are getting a $600 a year credit - a total of $1,200 through the end of 2005 - to help pay for prescriptions

http://www.georgewbush.com/Agenda/Chapter.aspx?ID=2

<font color="blue">sorry it's from dubya's website that's the first thing that came up </font color>

eg8r
11-12-2004, 09:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, having heard now your theories regarding evolution, I no longer find it productive to debate issues with you. While I like you, we are certainly miles, no lightyears away from one another in our basic premises.
<hr /></blockquote> Well, there you have it. You believe we come from rocks, I don't, so now you don't think it would be productive to debate. LOL, I am sorry but I don't think I am the problem.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
11-12-2004, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> I know, Republicans make their own luck.
<hr /></blockquote>

Now you're catching on /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I knew you would come around sooner or later /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r
11-12-2004, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> I know, Republicans make their own luck.
<hr /></blockquote>

Now you're catching on /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I knew you would come around sooner or later /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote> Kicking and screaming. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Deeman2
11-12-2004, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> No, I am not, must be very recently, only took him four years to get around to it huh? Do you happen to have a link on this.

thanks,
Gayle, <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Gayle,

Respectfully, if you need a link on this you have not paid much attention to the political debate, the news, etc. While Wally may overload his computer with links to this, I might say that Hillary had 8 years with this as her only focus (aside from keeping Bill's pants zipped) and couldn't even get her own party together on this issue. Little Bushy's plan is the largest and most publicized expendature on health care in our history. Some of us think it spends too mch money. Some of you think it is not enough but he sure did something no one else has before. </font color>

Deeman
W's not the only one who doesn't read the papers...

Gayle in MD
11-12-2004, 09:53 AM
You are right, I am wrong. But, also, I am worried how it will go. I read something about the total amount of money awarded, compared to the infractions committed, and the "Mistakes" made me angrier than the awards. It is unfortunate that we pay so much for health care and so many doctors and hospitals provide such poor care. The idea that they will be in a position to get away with more than they already do really concerns me.

Also, I wonder where the "limited levels" will fall. My worry is for those who become disabled, not the attorneys, who are probably the worst of the worst when it comes to gougeing the public.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
11-12-2004, 10:01 AM
Oh that, yes I knew about that, but I don't consider that a health care plan. And also, having written my Moms checks for her the last years of her life, that is a drop in the bucket, frankly. I wouldn't have made a healthy dent.

This only addresses low income seniors, leaving many out.


Also, didn't he cut medicare when he was first elected?
Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
11-12-2004, 10:10 AM
That's right, Ed, that's just what I said, right? Where did I say that we come from rocks, really ED, you do twist words around.

Look, let's you and I just give the others a break and just avoid posting to one another for a while. I like you, I really do, and think you are very intelligent. It's just that there are some things that are better left unsaid, and I really don't think it would serve either of us to debate the issues of the bible versus the theory of evolution.

Have a nice day! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman2
11-12-2004, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> You are right, I am wrong. But, also, I am worried how it will go. I read something about the total amount of money awarded, compared to the infractions committed, and the "Mistakes" made me angrier than the awards. It is unfortunate that we pay so much for health care and so many doctors and hospitals provide such poor care. The idea that they will be in a position to get away with more than they already do really concerns me.

<font color="blue">You are right on target. If most of us performed our jobs like that we'd be canned immediately, planes would crash every hour, etc. </font color>

Also, I wonder where the "limited levels" will fall. My worry is for those who become disabled, not the attorneys, who are probably the worst of the worst when it comes to gougeing the public.

<font color="blue">I have some concerns there as well. I hope we can make some exceptions for real tragic cases. Surely some adults will surface and make those. Of course, we are dealing with congress here as well. These same cases come up in Europe and they get very little. </font color>

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
11-12-2004, 11:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> No, I am not, must be very recently, only took him four years to get around to it huh? Do you happen to have a link on this.

thanks,
Gayle, <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Gayle,

Respectfully, if you need a link on this you have not paid much attention to the political debate, the news, etc. While Wally may overload his computer with links to this, I might say that Hillary had 8 years with this as her only focus (aside from keeping Bill's pants zipped) and couldn't even get her own party together on this issue. Little Bushy's plan is the largest and most publicized expendature on health care in our history. Some of us think it spends too mch money. Some of you think it is not enough but he sure did something no one else has before. </font color>

Deeman
W's not the only one who doesn't read the papers... <hr /></blockquote>

Very good points. Expect liberals to skip responding to this one.

SpiderMan

eg8r
11-13-2004, 07:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
That's right, Ed, that's just what I said, right? Where did I say that we come from rocks, really ED, you do twist words around.
<hr /></blockquote> I did not twist anything, I just added the reality of the theory of evolution.

[ QUOTE ]
and I really don't think it would serve either of us to debate the issues of the bible versus the theory of evolution.
<hr /></blockquote> You are exactly right, once I point out something that cannot be proven it throws evolution out of the water, given the logic evolutionists use against crationism.

eg8r

Ross
11-13-2004, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> No, I am not, must be very recently, only took him four years to get around to it huh? Do you happen to have a link on this.

thanks,
Gayle, <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Gayle,

Respectfully, if you need a link on this you have not paid much attention to the political debate, the news, etc. While Wally may overload his computer with links to this, I might say that Hillary had 8 years with this as her only focus (aside from keeping Bill's pants zipped) and couldn't even get her own party together on this issue. Little Bushy's plan is the largest and most publicized expendature on health care in our history. Some of us think it spends too mch money. Some of you think it is not enough but he sure did something no one else has before. </font color>

Deeman
W's not the only one who doesn't read the papers... <hr /></blockquote>

Very good points. Expect liberals to skip responding to this one.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Or not, Spiderman.

Point 1: You are incorrect to say that Hillary had "8 years of this as her only focus". The truth is she headed the task force to reform health care during 93-94 only. That effort failed ultimately because the US did not want to go to a system of universal health care similar to Canada's. Whether scuttling the plan was wise is at least debateable. Everyone has coverage in Canada but the US leads in health care innovation and quality for those with money. The US also spends twice as much per person (4k in '97 amounting to 13.5% of US GDP) on health care than Canada (2k, 9% of Canadian GDP). So part of our high tech health care is due to us just spending more, not just because we have a different system.

Point 2: The legislation that created the prescription discount card program that Bush approved was initiated and then written almost entirely by the drug companies. Do some research if you don't believe me. And you are right that it is massively expensive, because it was written to maximize drug profits. Alternative plans (like closing loopholes in the patenting process that keep generics off the market, or forcing more competition by allowing the free flow of American-made drugs across national borders) to save both consumers and us taxpayers money were proposed by Dem lawmakers and were rejected by the Bush admin.

Also the plan is incredibly cumbersome and confusing for seniors who want to try to use it. My mother's med bills are currently about 1k per month - using the cards (which I would have to do for her because she can no longer handle all the paperwork involved) she could maybe get it down to $800-900 per month. This hardly amounts to much of a solution.

Point 3: The drug discount card plan does nothing toward reversing the trend toward an increasing number of US citizens without health insurance. This number has steadily increased during Bush's 4 year tenure and is now at 45 million (2003). It is true that after 4 years and facing an election, Bush has proposed an increase in MSA's and I think an increase of $500 tax deduction for health insurance that should give a LITTLE help to the middle class citizens without insurance. Since private insurance is around 3 to 5k annually for most citizens, this will not do anything for those that can't come up with that kind of money.

Gayle in MD
11-13-2004, 02:41 PM
Ed, why don't you prove to me that gays have a choice about their sexual preference, since you stated it so firmly in your other post. Prove to me that it is not physiological. Prove to me that Jesus resurected.

Half of the things that you and Walley post are just opinions, just like my posts.

Show me the "Logic" demonstrated in the bible, then you can demand proof from me for my opinions.

I gave you a post that gave information about the lies told by Rice and Cheney, guess you must have missed that.

Everything is a theory, FYI, so get off your high horse.

Gayle in Md. Can't wait till Little Bushy's economic S*** hits the fan, hope you will be around to demand facts then.

G. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rich R.
11-13-2004, 02:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> In December 2003, President Bush signed a new Medicare law that will provide 40 million seniors and people with disabilities with better benefits and more options for the first time in Medicare's history. The new prescription drug benefit will empower seniors and Americans with disabilities to choose the health care coverage that is best for them.
Beginning this past June, millions of seniors started saving on their prescription medicines with Medicare-approved discount cards. Nearly 4.2 million seniors are already using their cards to save money on their medicines. In addition to these savings, low-income seniors are getting a $600 a year credit - a total of $1,200 through the end of 2005 - to help pay for prescriptions

http://www.georgewbush.com/Agenda/Chapter.aspx?ID=2

<font color="blue">sorry it's from dubya's website that's the first thing that came up </font color> <hr /></blockquote>
Wally, I'm sorry to say that this law is not what it was suppose to be. I think if you look into it, you will find that most of the senior groups opposed this law.
Most of the money goes to the drug industry fat cats and very little help is given to seniors. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

silverbullet
11-13-2004, 05:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Ed, why don't you prove to me that gays have a choice about their sexual preference, since you stated it so firmly in your other post. Prove to me that it is not physiological. Prove to me that Jesus resurected.

Show me the "Logic" demonstrated in the bible, then you can demand proof from me for my opinions.


Everything is a theory, FYI, so get off your high horse.

G. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle,

According to a philosophy teacher I had, God can neither be proven nor disproven, so the appropriate response is 'I believe'. As far as Jesus' resurrection, No-one saw him rise-up that I am aware of,nor walk out of the grave, but based on witnesses and documents, there was strong 'circumstancial' evidence that this occurred. Many are convicted of murder on much less evidence, but IMO, the 'resurrection' still it is a matter of 'faith'.

How do you prove that gayness is a choice? You cannot.

In the Bible,if you discount the strong probability now coming out that the word 'homosexual' is an incorrect rendering of the greek words translated into English, New Testament references were addressing heterosexuals engaging in same sex behaviors. Perhaps we would now call that 'bisexual', but that word was not known 1700- 2000 years ago, nor other differences in sexual orientation. As far as OT references, that(OT) was written to the Hebrew nation and theologians cannot even agree among themselves which parts apply to modern day christians.

DNA mapping is coming up with some differences in genes, but we know little, even scientifically.Considering our lack of knowlege, It seems most reasonable to accept what the person says.

I would love to see eg8rs proof also:)


sb

Gayle in MD
11-14-2004, 07:29 AM
Here is a little personal story for all those out there who think that gay people have a choice.

When my daughter was little, several of my neihgbors had a little girls the same age, one was always a bit different, we'll call her Kathy. We used to take turns letting them visit and play together from the time they were three years old. I can remember how I would set up the little table and chairs on the porch for tea parties and such. My daughter would get so mad, she would run in the house crying, "Kathy pulled the head off my dolly, Kathy smashed worms all over the porch, Kathy put a bug down my dress."

When they got a little older, seven and eight, it was,
"Mommy, Kathy took my lamp apart, Kathy pulled daddy's tools out, Kathy threw a spit ball in my eye."

Although Kathy was a bit of a challenge in the dicipline department, I always liked her, and my husband and I would try to find things that she enjoyed doing when she was around. He'd let her help him working around the pool on weekends, she always seemed to show up whenever the tool box or the ladder came out, LOL.

By the age of ten, Kathy played only with the boys. Sometimes when the whole group played touch football in the side lot, the boys went home crying because Kathy played too rough, and several times Kathy sent boys home with shiners.

Kathy never walked like a little girl. When she took up smoking around sixteen, she didn't even hold her cigarette like a girl. She was always digging in her borthers dresser for clothes, and never felt comfortable in a dress. When the family car broke down, it was Kathy, grease up to her elbows who would shove her dad and brothers out of the way and get it running. Most saturdays, in fact, Kathy was out in front of their house under the hood, tuneing up the engine, cleaning the spark plugs, etc.

Through all this Kath's mom and I remained friends. There came a day when we were alone in my kitchen that she broke down in sobs, telling me that she was afraid that Kathy was Homosexual. I encouraged her to go with Kathy for counseling, but her husband wouldn't hear of it. Kathy's relationship with her Dad deterriorated completely by the time she graduated. The family was strict Catholic, and Kathy's growing masculine traits irritated and embarrassed her Dad, her sisters, and eventually even her Mom.

There were many days when Kathy and I had long talks, private talks about her worries, and her lack of friends. After Graduation, she moved to the city.

Kathy comes by every Christmas to this day to spend some time with us. We still love and accept her and embrace her for who she is and has always been. Both her sisters, her parents and all but one brother have cut ties with Kathy in spite of the fact that she is a wonderful person. She is a paramedic and has gotten many professinal accolades for outstanding service. She lives in the city, Washington D.C., and has launched several business supported programs for underprivelidged kids. She devotes extra time on her days off to teach reading to illiterate adults. And yes, Kathy is gay.

My daughter went to private school, so their paths and friends took different directions as they grew up, but Kathy is still one of her best friends. She didn't share the same interests and goals of the other teenaged girls in the neighboorhood, and most of them really wouldn't associate with her after around twelve, but Kathy is still showing up here at our home, and we hope she always will.

I can't speak about all those who live the homosexual lifestyle, but no one could ever convince me that the vast majority would take a path so frought with heartache and struggle if not for a biological predisposition. And further, to use the bible, or the supposed intentions of Christ as proof that these folks should not have the same rights as anyone else, is just one of the most disgusting examples of organized religeon that I have observed.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman2
11-14-2004, 08:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Gayle in Md. Can't wait till Little Bushy's economic S*** hits the fan, hope you will be around to demand facts then.

G. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle,

I can't believe this. You don't like Bush. That's O.k. You lost the election, now you are hoping that Bush's economic plans fail? You want America to fail so you can say, "I told you so." You want more jobs to be lost for your own political purpose? You want bad things to happen to our great country because you lost? I respect healthy disagreement but your wishes would make more people suffer, would lose people's jobs. The economy is starting to recover. The stock market is rallying, oil prices are dropping and now we may see better times after a tough struggle for many of us and you want us to fail?

This is petty politics that is the same thing that lost you guys the election. I think you have forgotten who's country this is and put partisan hate above our welfare. I know, you are not even ashamed...Just mad at Bush...Forget the democrats, thnk, for once of the people who will suffer if you get your wish.

Deeman
comapssionate democrats, right!

Gayle in MD
11-14-2004, 12:20 PM
Don't be silly, that is certainly not what I mean. But what really gets me is that none of you folks who are for Bush and his economic plan seem to ever take into consideration our debt, or what is happening to the value of the American dollar. Everyone should read "The Coming Generational Storm" just to name one, and then folks could better understand what lies ahead if we continue on this path.

I hope he turns out to be the best president we've ever had. I hope the many economists who are concerned about the American economy and where it is headed are all wrong. But, we are talking about an actual debt, (All things considered) of 51 trillion dollars, not just the deficit.

There are folks all over the country with no jobs, and the middle class folks are not in good shape. I am fortunate, It won't have an effect on me, but I'm worried about the way we are mortgaging the future of our children and grandchildren.

Please dont talk to me about petty politics. People pick and choose the numbers they throw out, but the actual projections, all things included, are disasterous.

Gayle in Md.

highsea
11-14-2004, 03:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>...But, we are talking about an actual debt, (All things considered) of 51 trillion dollars, not just the deficit.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>Where in the world did you get that? The US National debt is $7.4 Trillion.

eg8r
11-14-2004, 04:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ed, why don't you prove to me that gays have a choice about their sexual preference, since you stated it so firmly in your other post. Prove to me that it is not physiological. Prove to me that Jesus resurected. <font color="red"> Proving that might be a bit tough. Since the most intelligent working in the field (of evolution) have never proved their "belief" I don't find a need to prove mine. My opinion was formed based on my faith. Take it or leave it. I am being honest in saying I have no proof, this is just one quality we wish you shared. </font color>

Half of the things that you and Walley post are just opinions, just like my posts.

Show me the "Logic" demonstrated in the bible, then you can demand proof from me for my opinions. <font color="red"> I am guessing this sentence is a response to my post in which saying using the logic of evolutionists... I am referring to the evolutionists thought process. I don't care to explain what I meant but if you are interested ask me.</font color>

I gave you a post that gave information about the lies told by Rice and Cheney, guess you must have missed that. <font color="red"> I might have missed that, what were the sources? This is a relevant question usually pertaining more to Q's reputable sources. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>

Everything is a theory, FYI, so get off your high horse. <font color="red"> What is this in response to? My high horse? Have you heard yourself since your first political post a few weeks ago. A quick trip to the mirror might clear somethings up for you. </font color>

Gayle in Md. Can't wait till Little Bushy's economic S*** hits the fan, hope you will be around to demand facts then. <font color="red"> Is it going to matter, you are the last to offer any up. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote> eg8r

Gayle in MD
11-14-2004, 08:49 PM
Kotlikoff on the Most Important Economic Problem Facing the U.S.

"The most pressing economic problem facing the United States is the enormous gap it faces with respect to projected spending and receipts. This Fiscal gap stands at $51 trillion. It reflects the fact that 77 million baby boomes will shortly begin collecting Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits, that the currentcost of these benefits total $23,000 per elderly, and that this $23,000 figure is rising much more rapidly than are the real wages of the workers paying these benefits. President Bush needs to engage in serious and immediate reforms of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. "The coming Generational Storm" presents simple, commonsense proposals for each of these programs."

Gayle In Md.

Gayle in MD
11-14-2004, 09:01 PM
In another post, reagrding Gay people, you stated, unequivocally, "They have a choice" and I want your proof, facts, NOW.

Gayle in Md.

silverbullet
11-15-2004, 12:17 AM
Gayle,

I have known plenty of gays that were born that way. It was pretty obvious by things they said. And I have known a few who had supportive parents and grew up just fine. But, I will tell you a story about a friend of mine I took karate with 20 years ago, named Tom. His mom was a nice person but Tom was a christian. Tom was wonderful and georgeous to look at.He was a lot younger but we were friends,nothing else. We 'went out' a couple of times as friends and enjoyed being friends and had a lot of things in common. Tom got into this relationship with a woman while i knew him and all I knew was that it had ended badly. At the time, I was not thinking that he might be gay. It was not until later, that I was able to pick these things up.

Years later, I saw Tom again, this time in narcotics anonymous and it was then that he told me what happened. He thought that if he could be with any woman, it would have been the one he tried to have a relationship with. It ended badly because Tom was gay and he could not do anything with her, could not even get aroused. He was devastated. The Bible said 'homosexuality' was wrong, so he turned to drugs to stuff the pain.

Many years later, he accepted himself as gay. I have not seen him since, but think of him often. There have been many 'Toms', some I have known, some not. There was another time, now about 10 years ago, a 16 year old guy approached me at a recovery dance. He was gay and afraid to tell anyone, but picked me out of the crowd as the one safe person to talk to.This young man, like Tom had been, was going through so much torment, he did not know where to turn and like Tom, had turned to drugs and did not know how to get clean with no support system for who he was.

Other gays have been tormented, beat up and killed. There were cases of this back where I came from. People have no idea what some of them have gone through, and some have had emotional problems or like my friend, Tom, drug problems as a result of it.

I get incensed when someone says it is a choice. When I left the Christian Church, I still have my childhood faith in many ways, yet cannot step inside a Christian Church. It does not have anything to do with Christ, but knowing what I might hear, the thought of going into a church fills me with so much dread. And it is worse now than when I left, before I met and became friends with gay people.

In many ways I prefer them as friends, especially the guys. My close guy friends are gay, almost exclusively.There is a connection I do not get with straight men which I cannot explain. It is different with women, in that I have straight and gay women friends with no preference one way or another.

I have seen so much cruelty and it sometimes reminds me of the 'witch burnings' where women who did nothing wrong were burned at the stake in droves for next to nothing.

sb

highsea
11-15-2004, 01:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> ...This Fiscal gap stands at $51 trillion. It reflects the fact that 77 million baby boomes will shortly begin collecting Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits, that the currentcost of these benefits total $23,000 per elderly, and that this $23,000 figure is rising much more rapidly than are the real wages of the workers paying these benefits. <hr /></blockquote>Ohhh, a "fiscal gap", not the debt. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Gayle, do you really believe this? In order for this "fiscal gap" to actually bring the debt to a $51 Tn level, these 77 million people would have to collect their $23,000/yr. for 28 years, with no money coming into the system. (Not too likely, considering the US has an annual GDP of over $11 Trillion/yr.)

Wally_in_Cincy
11-15-2004, 06:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kotlikoff:</font><hr>
...President Bush needs to engage in serious and immediate reforms of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid...
<hr /></blockquote>

and when he does the Dems will scream like stuck pigs and they will tell the old folks that they better develop a taste for ALPO.

Do you or Kotlikoff have any suggestions on what should be done?

eg8r
11-15-2004, 06:43 AM
You can't handle the facts. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
11-15-2004, 06:49 AM
Are retirement benefits tax free? It is obviously a rhetorical question. Kotlikoff does not mention (at least not in this quote) the enormous amount of tax revenue the government will have once these people start dipping into their retirement funds.

It is obvious the author has an agenda and is not really interested in telling the entire story.

eg8r

Rich R.
11-15-2004, 08:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> and when he does the Dems will scream like stuck pigs and they will tell the old folks that they better develop a taste for ALPO.<hr /></blockquote>
Wally, they would not complain if the "reforms" resulted in better, more equitable, benefits. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

"Reform" does not necessarily mean a reduction in benefits, but, maybe a Republican wouldn't realize that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman2
11-15-2004, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Don't be silly, that is certainly not what I mean.
<font color="blue"> I love being silly. I have right to be silly under the consitution and maybe even the Magna Carta. But it is what you said. </font color>

But what really gets me is that none of you folks who are for Bush and his economic plan seem to ever take into consideration our debt, or what is happening to the value of the American dollar.

<font color="blue"> Yes, we do. We don't like the debt. However, it is not our first debt and will not be our last. Now that things are turning the other way, the debt will shrink and we can be more fiscaly responsible, my hope for Bush. </font color>

Everyone should read "The Coming Generational Storm" just to name one, and then folks could better understand what lies ahead if we continue on this path.

<font color="blue"> If books by economists had any validity, Marx would have been right. (Karl, not Groutcho, well maybe Groutcho too). There are over 100 new books out there on the future of the economy. Most will be in garage sales for $.10 by next year. </font color>

I hope he turns out to be the best president we've ever had.

<font color="blue"> I hope you are right but that's not what you said and I love you like a brother but don't believe you as I have read a couple of your other posts.</font color>

I hope the many economists who are concerned about the American economy and where it is headed are all wrong.

<font color="blue"> As said earlier, they usually are wrong but are never called on it as we don't demand our money back from authors once we buy a book.</font color>

But, we are talking about an actual debt, (All things considered) of 51 trillion dollars, not just the deficit.

<font color="blue"> I believe you need some serious help with your remedial math skills. </font color>

There are folks all over the country with no jobs, and the middle class folks are not in good shape.


<font color="blue"> I was one of those folks, without a job, for over a year. However, I didn't let short term ecconomic cycles overrule my basic sense of what is right for the country. I struggled, I hustled, I found work eventually. </font color>

I am fortunate, It won't have an effect on me, but I'm worried about the way we are mortgaging the future of our children and grandchildren.

<font color="blue"> I am happy you are fortunate and above the fray of us who must fight to keep our jobs. We always mortgage our children's and grandchildren's futures. Our grandparents did with the WPA. CCC &amp; Marshal Plan. Simple laws time/space do not allow us to mortgage our grandparents future. Give our economy and GWB a fair chance. </font color>

Please dont talk to me about petty politics.

<font color="blue"> Why, should I pretent it's something else? </font color>

People pick and choose the numbers they throw out, <font color="blue"> They sure do! </font color> but the actual projections, all things included, are disasterous.

<font color="blue"> During slow economic cycles, the projections are always bad, followed by equally overoptimistic positive projections in good times. There are no ACTUAL Projections. There are only ecconomic fortune tellers and semi-educated guesses. </font color>

Deeman




<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
11-15-2004, 09:46 AM
Go to PBS.ORG and click on Laurence J. Kotlikoff, you will find links which show all the figures, graphs, and even several chapters from his book.

Gayle in Md.

highsea
11-15-2004, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Go to PBS.ORG and click on Laurence J. Kotlikoff, you will find links which show all the figures, graphs, and even several chapters from his book.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>Do you have a link? All I saw was an interview by Bill Moyers. A search on Kotlikoff yielded very little nothing else.

While I'm not an economist, Kotlikoff made some pretty broad assumptions in his predictions. Apparently there is some dissent among economists about the value of his "generational accounting". I will wait until I read more before I comment fully.

However, my original point is still valid, the US National Debt is nowhere near $51Tn, as you stated in your post. I'm not sure you can acknowledge that, but I tried...

silverbullet
11-15-2004, 12:30 PM
It is all pretty scary about the debt and social security, etc. I saw those graphs someone posted and it looked pretty dismal.

And we are in this war, which might even get bigger, which will make the debt worse. Not a good place to be in. Get the terrorist and increase the debt or stay in US, let them get us and have nothing.

Hopefully there is something good around the bend I am not seeing? I am not against GWB, but neither is he a magician or God.

sb

RedHell
11-15-2004, 12:47 PM
Dave,

You're to funny !!!

It's interesting to see how you steared them here, mind you BC as it shares of emigrant...

Something interesting for all US emigrant. If you would to emigrate to Quebec, the provincial governement would provide you with free french lessons (about 6 month 24 hours/weeks). But if Dave was to move from BC to QC, he wouldn't get them. Go figure !

As for goverment managed health system. I'm not sure it's working to well. It appears people have become irresponsable toward the usage of the system. Emergencies are often overwhelmed simply because many elderly go for problems as simple as a headeache or digestion problems.

Goverment is elected and not judged on performance, which brings the fact that they will do what they can do with the money they got. If they feel they didn't provide a service and were overwhelmed, they will ask for more money.

I feel that everyone should have to pay a certain premium, even on public health insurance. We definetely need deterant to people going to the hospital for nothing !

wolfdancer
11-15-2004, 01:18 PM
Ross, thanks for your reply.

wolfdancer
11-15-2004, 01:35 PM
The Republicans threw us a bone, and now they want to brag about it?? Actually, there's not much difference in the agendas of either party....it's just that the Democrats hide their disdain for the hoi paloi, while the Republications have no compunction about being the party of the well off. It's the "let them eat cake" theory...well actually just a few crumbs
In this case a Bill promoted by big business, is promoted as a bill to aid seniors.

wolfdancer
11-15-2004, 01:43 PM
well said

Wally_in_Cincy
11-15-2004, 01:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> It is all pretty scary about the debt and social security, etc. I saw those graphs someone posted and it looked pretty dismal.

And we are in this war, which might even get bigger, which will make the debt worse. Not a good place to be in. Get the terrorist and increase the debt or stay in US, let them get us and have nothing.

Hopefully there is something good around the bend I am not seeing? I am not against GWB, but neither is he a magician or God.

sb <hr /></blockquote>

We have problems but I wouldn't worry yourself to death about it. Remember we all grew up wondering when the nukes were going to start flying, not to mention the folks that experienced the Depression and WWII.

Have faith.

Gayle in MD
11-16-2004, 05:05 AM
Go to PBS.ORG, put Kotlikoff into the search at the top of the page, go to the bottom of next page, and you will see, chapters from The Coming Generational Storm.

Gayle in Md.

highsea
11-16-2004, 11:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Go to PBS.ORG, put Kotlikoff into the search at the top of the page, go to the bottom of next page, and you will see, chapters from The Coming Generational Storm.

Gayle in Md.
<hr /></blockquote>Already did that, as I mentioned. The only returns I got was an interview with Bill Moyer.[ QUOTE ]
BRANCACCIO: Tonight on NOW…

Christian evangelists helped elect President Bush. But what happens when moral values are carried into the public square?

CHITTISTER: When the Puritans did it, they burned witches all in the name of God.

BRANCACCIO: A Benedictine nun on the fusion of religion and politics.

And how is the President's plan to remake the Mideast map working in Afghanistan?

PARENTI: Its government will be sort of a narco-mafia state, a mafia with a seat in the UN and a few military bases on the Iranian and Pakistani border.

BRANCACCIO: Reporter Christian Parenti, just back from Afghanistan.

And the Bush team hits the ground running, ready to fix social security and taxes. But can our economy absorb the impact?

KOTLIKOFF: I think our fiscal situation is worse than Brazil's, I think it's worse than Argentina's. I think it might be the worst of any country in the world.

ANNOUNCER: All that tonight on NOW with Bill Moyers and David Brancaccio, the weekly newsmagazine from PBS.<hr /></blockquote>Pretty dramatic stuff. A narco-mafia gov't in Afghanistan, burning witches at the stake, the USA is bankrupt, etc...meh. more gloom. Moyer's a nit anyway. (personal opinion)

Anyway, if you can't post a link, I won't worry about it. I already addresses how these numbers are derived in your other thread.

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=npr&amp;Number=165286&amp;page=0&amp;v iew=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1