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DeadStrokeMan
11-09-2004, 10:24 PM
From 'On the Break' - the 2004 Money list for men in $1000

OnTheBreak (http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Page30.htm)

Alex Pagulayan 101k
Efren Reyes 80
Johnny Archer 75
Corey Deuel 73
Thomas Engert 58
Rodney Morris 45
Mika Immonen 41
Pei-wei Chang 37
Ralf Souquet 34
Gabe Owen 33

Is this all? Thats all they made for an entire year (gambling aside) ? If so - thats a pityful wage for worlds best in a sport...probably close to ping-pong and darts. Or is this a list of specific tourneys only??

I was making well over 100 as a programmer ...close to 250 at one time. Seems the Worlds very very best at billiards should be takin' in some serious money - no?

cueball1950
11-09-2004, 10:47 PM
I have to agree with you deadstrokeman... it is a lousy wage. and to think that earl is not even on that list. But most of them may have sponsor money to fall back on also. If they do have sponsorship money coming in that should help with their travel expenses. and alot of players do exhibitions as well. In order for the top players to succeed it takes alot of effort on their part. especially if the sponsor wants them to go to places like Valley forge and such. I have often wondered if they get paid for their appearances at the sponsors booth or if that is part of their deal...............................mike

Rich R.
11-10-2004, 03:57 AM
The money list for the men is certainly sad, but, as Cueball said, some of them also have some sponsorship. The income of pool players still does not compare to that of other sports. I would venture a guess, that you would have to go pretty far down on the golf list, before finding a player to compare to the top pool player.

I also checked the WPBA money list, using your link. The situation for the women is even worse.
The top 3 women are only in the $60K to $62K range, but after that, the money drops tremendously. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I wish I had the answers, but I don't. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rip
11-10-2004, 06:49 AM
The 216th highest on the PGA list for 2004 is $101,639 in winnings. The first 190 on the PGA tour winnings list all exceeded $200k.

Pool, ping pong, darts and scrabble seem to be comparable in earnings potential. Professional toenail picking and watermelon seed spitting will surpass pool player earnings by year end 2004.
Regards,
Rip~believe it or not.

Ken_4fun
11-10-2004, 08:28 AM
All -

I have to giggle a little as I know a little bit about these "sponserships". The ones I know are like from cue makers who gives them a few cues that the player then has to sell.

As I said in a previous post, very very few have anything like a middle income living standard. I once interviewed Corey Duall at a tourneyment and somehow we got the topic. Ill never forget what he said, "I would rather be a broke pool player than have money and not play."

Sadly, he might get his "rathers". I was at Seniors event several years ago, and while I cannot remember his name but he was a great player and a former Maryland State Champion, said, "I layed a golf club in my kids crib."

It truely is sad.


ken

Mr Ingrate
11-10-2004, 09:46 AM
Hi Mike,

When you come right down to it, pool is a game, not a profession. If you want to make money playing a game, pick one that pays - tho why anyone would want to pay someone to play a game is beyond me. When I was a kid I liked to hang around the pool hall and gamble and skip school. It was a rush winning money.

Then I grew up.

Last Halloween I thought of going to a costume party as a strange mythical creature. I was going to tape a bunch of stocks and bonds, etc. to a pool cue and go as a "pool player with money".

Conclusion: Hey, it was their choice and not a good one!

Deeman2
11-10-2004, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> Hi Mike,

When you come right down to it, pool is a game, not a profession. If you want to make money playing a game, pick one that pays - tho why anyone would want to pay someone to play a game is beyond me. When I was a kid I liked to hang around the pool hall and gamble and skip school. It was a rush winning money.

Then I grew up.

Last Halloween I thought of going to a costume party as a strange mythical creature. I was going to tape a bunch of stocks and bonds, etc. to a pool cue and go as a "pool player with money".

Conclusion: Hey, it was their choice and not a good one! <hr /></blockquote>

Dave,

Only about a month ago we had someone on here crying about the "sweet deals" that "set players for life". I have since then, talked to a couple of players we all know and love and they never got the message. They are still waiting to line up and be set for life. Sad but true...

Deeman

Tom_In_Cincy
11-10-2004, 12:17 PM
IMO the great pool players of our time (60s to present) have been paid exactly what they are worth.

Since the 70s there has always been a few yearly events that had $20,000 added. Some years there were only a few events of this size. Some years there were events that had much more than $20,000, but, as an average, this figure stands out as a common "added".

Why hasn't this changed? Why would it?
The product (pool players and their skill, and the game) haven't changed.

When was the last time you saw back to back winners of any tournament? (Ralph Souquet won the WPA and US Open in 2002)
But you have to go back a long time to find anyone that won 2 or more in a row of these $20,000+ added events)

The last 30 years has had some great players but the product hasn't changed.

The Derby City Classic was the last HUGE event change. And it is now in its 6th year.

IMO, when the product improves then the money will increase.

Until then, we get what we put into it.

DeadStrokeMan
11-10-2004, 01:49 PM
Here is another list of the 'money$' earned by the top:

http://azbilliards.com/thepros/2000thepros.cfm

Pityful

Chris Cass
11-10-2004, 02:45 PM
Still Gabe made twice as much as I have in the past 4 yrs. That's the really sad part.

C.C.

Gayle in MD
11-11-2004, 07:02 AM
I'm curious, anyone know how many of the pros add to their income by giving lessons? Did I hear or read here that Alison charges $800.00 per hour for lessons, or more?

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SteveEllis
11-11-2004, 07:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadStrokeMan:</font><hr>
Is this all? Thats all they made for an entire year (gambling aside) ? If so - thats a pityful wage for worlds best in a sport...probably close to ping-pong and darts. Or is this a list of specific tourneys only??

I was making well over 100 as a programmer ...close to 250 at one time. Seems the Worlds very very best at billiards should be takin' in some serious money - no?
<hr /></blockquote>

The best in other sports don't get paid all that money merely because they're the best, but because they are the best and perceived to be able to make money for other people. That's why they get the big bucks. Just as you (and I) are perceived as being of value to our employers because the programs we write/maintain either make a sellable product (software company) or make the company run more efficiently (IT).
Other sports figures also get paid big bucks because people somehow delude themselves into thinking the local pro team really represents them and they're willing to pay for the best as their representatives. Pool players are nomads and there are no local heroes in it for the general public.
Poker is on a run because so many people really feel they can compete with the best (yeah, right) and go to the tournaments. You're average local pool player can't delude themselves about playing against the pros, but the average Party Poker online player can.
Golf? Bowling? I have no idea why anybody watches either.
If a promoter felt he could fill even 10,000 seats for a pool match (like in the 20's and 30's) you'd see paydays for pool pros rise correspondingly. The sad fact however is that a small percentage of the population play pool on a regular basis and an even smaller percentage actually go to watch pro matches. The ironic thing for me is that I go to pro matches, but if they were more crowded and expensive I wouldn't.
I really can't imagine pool becoming lucrative in the foreseeable future.
Steve. &lt;- Wishes he could shoot pool like he can program.

ceebee
11-11-2004, 03:37 PM
Maybe some of the classy clubs could use some of their slow Sundays &amp; have "PAID ATTENDANCE" invitational matches. That would help raise some bucks for the clubs and the touring pros. That would also allow each of us to see these players on a more personal basis. The players could give instructional seminars, play challenge games &amp; maybe even get some gamble as the evening wears on.

There are lots of ways to make a buck...

marktadd
11-12-2004, 04:16 AM
when i last looked before the albuquerque stop allison was at like 78k and core about the same?

marktadd
11-12-2004, 04:23 AM
lol thats funny but mabey sadly true. did you guys see me post on my thoughts on pool over at az? it brought up some very interesting responses.
check it out espeialy if your young and want to pursue pool. and if there is advice on this issue and others please dont hesitate to ask me:) i dont know everything but might be able to give you some advice from a hasbeen:(

marktadd
11-12-2004, 04:31 AM
now thats not nice. pool is a profession.if its not then neither is golf pool just doest pay as much. like the difference in macdonalds manager and managing at&amp;tor wall street. both professions but one pays higher. i dont think tiger has a profession then plays golf for a second income do you? and i think thats an insult to the players that think it is. unless you meant something else thin sorry:) if not shame on you

marktadd
11-12-2004, 04:41 AM
its there choice and not a good one? hmmmm you must have not been a very good player. or wanted to be one and failed. not to say you may have played pretty good but not good enough. though you may make more money than most of them or even all of them . be nice to the ones that are trying because they love the game . with a post like that why do you come here? most people that frequent these forums a love the game and dont really want to be insulted for it. there are people out there that may make more money in their profession and pity you cause they make 20 times more than you drive a more expensive car and live in a 10000 square foot home. anyway cheers all

marktadd
11-12-2004, 05:01 AM
????????????/ the product hasnt changed? that i dont understand. basketball as of old and even now still plays with a round ball and a ten foot hole. golf plays then and now with clubs and a hole no changes. football the same and pool the same as with most sports and profession. their are reason but those are not them. the main reason people like other sports better than pool including the people who sponser them. if we are lucky one day their ma be people with a lot of money that like pool and is willing to put up large sums of money and hope others follow. i think pool players are very capable of advertising 7up. wheaties and a wide range of products that have nothing to do with pool dont you? pool is making balls in a hole golf is making balls in a hole basketball the same. i think pool is much harder than all these games so whats the difference in these if pool is harder than all sports imo? or most sports. if all sports were played by how difficult the game was pool players would be millionares for sure.
no doubt about it pool golf basketball football baseball and many others are all games with the same concept. one just pays higher than the other. they work no harder than pool players to acheive there goals. we just need to figure out how to make it interesting to the public. i think baseball is the most boring game to watch. cant beleive they make that kind of money many without getting off the bench go figure.

SteveEllis
11-12-2004, 05:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr> ... we just need to figure out how to make it interesting to the public... i think baseball is the most boring game to watch. cant beleive they make that kind of money many without getting off the bench go figure. <hr /></blockquote>
We can't make pool more interesting to the public period, just like the NBA can't make basketball more interesting to you. Pool like golf by it's lack of in your face confrontation is really a poor spectator sport. What makes golf work is the huge number of people who play it. I don't play it and couldn't care less about watching it, I play pool and I watch it whenever it is available. When pool has the number of participants (who care about their game not just ball-bangers) as golf it will be "successful". From my perspective it is successful already. I wish the pros all the economic enrichment they can get, but when you get right down to it, that doesn't effect my enjoyment of the game at all.

eg8r
11-12-2004, 05:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dave:</font><hr> its there chice and not a good one? <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mark:</font><hr> hmmmm you must have not been a very good player. or wanted to be one and failed. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> Mark, I think you might be missing the point. Dave is not saying anything that is not "nice" or condemning. This thread was started to mention the poor salaries of pool players. Dave was being very honest.

We all make choices in life, some good and some bad. The good and bad is determined on your outlook, desires and goals. Since the topic of this thread is salary (not really a salary because you have to win your money) and the main thrust is that the numbers are low, it is not too hard to see why someone would say playing pool for a living is not a good choice. I don't think anyone is insulted by Dave's post (which you implied) other than those whom have chosen to make pool their livelihood, are broke, and feel they deserve more. If you choose a deadend job (being a poolplayer is a good example for the majority) don't be upset in the end when there is no money. No one wakes up in the morning and decides to spend the rest of their life working in a job because the pay is bad.

Do I think pool players should make more money...Not really. They don't really do much for the sponsors and they don't really draw a crowd worth mentioning. There is way too much comparison going on with other sports, when the comparison is not there. People need to quit referring to baseball, basketball, golf, etc citing only the fact that it is a game played with balls. There is much more. When Jordan was paid $30 million one season, it was no problem because he brought in at least that much in revenue to the owners of the team. Name one pool player who could offer a sponsor a million dollars in revenue? The pool players really have no marketable attributes outside their industry, except for a limited few. Someone give us a reason why Wheaties would ever think about putting a poolplayer on their box? Someone give a reason why a bar should put up 500k add-in for a tournament? Wouldn't these types of numbers be needed to increase the pay for some of these players? How on earth would the sponsors, promoters, vendors ever get their money back? This is about business, and outside of the billiards industry, on the average, it is not a good business venture to pay a pool player any money, at least as of right now.

I wish pool players or someone trustworthy, with the ability to make things happen, new how to fix the situation, I certainly don't. It would be nice to see the guys make a lot more money, they certainly (for the most part) have put in their time. Lots of hardwork on the other hand still does not mean they are deserving.

eg8r

Rich R.
11-12-2004, 06:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr> when i last looked before the albuquerque stop allison was at like 78k and core about the same? <hr /></blockquote>
Mark, the amounts I used were from the "On The Break" link, provided by DeadStrokeMan, in the original post. Although the On The Break publication was dated November 2004, I have no idea how current the money list was.

Regardless of that link, it is apparrent that tournament winnings for the top ladies are considerably lower than for the top men. You also have to factor in the fact that, unlike the men, only two or three women win the majority of tournaments and they still earned less than the top men. Also, when you drop past the first few women, the money amounts drop drastically.

Pool tournament winnings are sad for everyone, but the men still have the edge.

marktadd
11-12-2004, 06:59 AM
i wouldnt say cant but if it happens it will be many decades i beleive
if i ever get rich i will set aside big money and hold big tournys. very if any entry fees. i would do that. so if i would do that and i would say if i hit the lottery. there may oneday come along a fellow who has tons of money and loves the game and has heart and willing to donate millions just to promate the game thats what pool needs. their are people that are rich and will donate million to charities and cancer reserch and many other things and know they will get nothing in return and dont want it. if we get lucky there may some day be a hand full of people who will do just that and that is the only way i see it will happen big backers who will take a chance or who loves the game and dont mind supporting it. and then it may spread

marktadd
11-12-2004, 07:34 AM
When you come right down to it, pool is a game, not a profession. If you want to make money playing a game, pick one that pays - tho why anyone would want to pay someone to play a game is beyond me. When I was a kid I liked to hang around the pool hall and gamble and skip school. It was a rush winning money.

Then I grew up.

Last Halloween I thought of going to a costume party as a strange mythical creature. I was going to tape a bunch of stocks and bonds, etc. to a pool cue and go as a "pool player with money".

Conclusion: Hey, it was their choice and not a good one! hmmm i think dave should speak for himself. sounds degrading and snyde to me.what pool player wouldnt take offence. i will tell you a non pool player thats who. and it doesnt matter what the post started talking about. then i grew up? so us pool players are a bunch of kids like beleiving in santa and still beleive in santa? dont know how you can defend him to the degree you are.
(Last Halloween I thought of going to a costume party as a strange mythical creature. I was going to tape a bunch of stocks and bonds, etc. to a pool cue and go as a "pool player with money".) ???????? how can you defend that statement? you dont take offence cause like him you have no respect for pool. thats obvious you think pool players like being broke? he seems to think its funny they are and theirs no money in pool. they are just mythical creatures who have money only in the fairy tail books.
that is funny i dont think so. i have many friends that are still playing pool and i wish them the best and love it when i see them
. some dont play no more but many do. i dont think their is a real pool player out there that would not take offence. i know what it is like to be out their trying to make it work because we love the game and are willing to take a pay cut to do something we love.
like lawyer jokes all may be laughing but their not lawyers. and not all lawyers are dishonest. mabey you guys should start a forum making fun of this sport and the broke pool players in it.
if you did and someone came in and complimented the sport what would you think. like i said let him speak for himself then respond
and remember just because something is true or a fact doesnt mean it should be said. it might offend someone. if someone was ugly doesnt mean you should go up to him and say your ugly it could be offensive. imo good day gentlemen

marktadd
11-12-2004, 08:10 AM
and yes i think hard work deserves praise and more money
some sports just have had the better opportunities. the work no harder on their game than the serious pool player. its just there profession is in demand and ours isnt. but in other countries snooker isnt any different game than pool but it is a different culture and has a tradition in snooker. im sure steve davis made more this year than the players that laugh at pool players . so it is being done just not here so please dont knock pool to badly.

Popcorn
11-12-2004, 09:52 AM
Quote
"I don't play it and couldn't care less about watching it, I play pool and I watch it whenever it is available. When pool has the number of participants (who care about their game not just ball-bangers) as golf it will be "successful". From my perspective it is successful already".

Your the exception, I don't play golf at all but watch it all the time. Most of the people who watch golf, basketball, football, or most all of the popular spectator sports have probably never played, that is the difference. An entertainment value that can attract a spectator beyond just the hard core enthusiasts. That is the hill pool has to climb and it will never happen. You could not pay a person to watch a pool match who is not themselves a pool player, that is just the reality. Even with all the hype now about poker, only poker players will watch for more then a few minutes. It is just underwritten by casino's and Internet sites with on line poker, that is the only reason it is on so much. Not because of some huge viewer ship. They are for the most part an infomercial for the host casino, their name appears everywhere in the broadcasts. They don't care how many watch, just the right people.

Popcorn
11-12-2004, 10:17 AM
Please don't think I am being personal but I am curious how old are you? When did you begin playing professional pool and do you know how to do anything else? I.E. Danny DiLiberto was an accountant and Miz a school teacher. I have to say, from readings your writings you sound like you think the world owes you something, trust me, it doesn't. In one of your posts you equate sponsoring pool to be as important as cancer research? I am afraid I will be giving money to cancer research before I will be giving it to you so you don't have to get a real job.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-12-2004, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr>they work no harder than pool players to acheive there goals. we just need to figure out how to make it interesting to the public. i think baseball is the most boring game to watch. cant beleive they make that kind of money many without getting off the bench go figure. <hr /></blockquote>

mtadd,
"hard work" I wonder if you really know what that means to a real sports professional?

It usually means more than 60hrs a week practicing or competing in your profession. It usually means more than 9 months of intense competition. It usually means that you are always being tested to your fullest with every contest. It usually means that your body has to be kept in excellent condition. It usually means that your team mates depend on you or that your competition respects your game so much, that it drives them to practice more. It usually means that you are very well known and respected in your sport. And all of this means that you are usually well paid for your efforts.

Most Pool players (only the very top few are exceptions) cannot come close to this type of HARD WORK.
Hitting balls in a pool hall and occasionaly matching up and playing in tournaments is not HARD WORK.

It is your only work.

marktadd
11-12-2004, 11:14 AM
well i think 9ball is more exciting than snooker . same game basicaly
where is all the money their making comming from?

marktadd
11-12-2004, 11:41 AM
obviously another person that has no idea the road to be a champion.
this forum is more imature and ignorant than az. i dont know why they call this a pool forum. all i hear is negative feed back from people who seewm to know nothing about pool. now is computer programming hard work or a secetaryal position? the are many kind of fields that are not nesassarily physicaly hard work but mentaly draining. so obviously some of you think that being a sports hero cause he works out physicaly is much harder and a better service that say all the professors , computer geeks, and other professions that require little or no physical activity? wow what a backwards society we are developing. sport heros are much more important than great minds. lol now thats funny. but just so you know i worked in vending for 70 hours a week and right after work i went to the gym and worked out for 2 hours straight free weights . 6 days a week for 5 years so i know a little about hard work if you ever done vending machines and had a huge non stop 12 hour day every day then you know what in talking about so i know a liitle about hard work . i did what i had to to support my family and since i was the only one working so she could tend the kids i worked alot. there is no doubt in my mind that given the opportunity that any champion pool player could duplicate those athlets. and some may have at on point of there life. could an athlet be a proffesor or computer geek . some may most mabey not . but one things for sure we all could excercise for hours if it meant a 5,000,000 salary a year. i did it for years for free just cause i like strengh. so mabey we should get thing is the right perspective . and not put the cart before the horse because that is what this generation has done with our sport heros. its amazing to me that some bench warmers get paid more than the president. well good luck with your futures

marktadd
11-12-2004, 11:55 AM
dont think i said that. and oh do you give to cancer reserch or just making conversation. i made no such statement. in that post i was saying because of my love for pool if i had say 30,000,000 i would set aside 5,000,000 plus and sponser pool tournys with little or no entry fee. then i said if we had people like me with money that loved pool then we may have a chance to get things rolling. and then i said before or after that many people give to causes that they care about and expect nothing in return. then i just gave examples of things people donate to because they care, not expecting a returnlike cancer research or their church or homeless people or 911 or whatever . then i said if we had people that cared about pool live other people cared in other charaties then we could make a difference. had nothing to do with cancer or charaties just making a point about passion for things people care for.......whew please people im not a good fast typer so please read post correctly so i can try to use these fingers for pool someday and not get carpaltunnel see i cant spell either good day gentleman......... by the way i will be 39 this month and you?

Tom_In_Cincy
11-12-2004, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr> well good luck with your futures <hr /></blockquote>

Well, good luck with yours.

If your an example of a Champion Pool Player, then you are also an example of why this game doesn't get more money from bigger sponsers.

What have YOU or any pool player done to EARN MORE money than the current prize levels?

Mr Ingrate
11-12-2004, 02:12 PM
Mark,

I stand by what I said. Pool is not a profession. Very, very few make a living at it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look around and see there are much better opportunities elsewhere.

Did you make a deliberate choice to play pool for a living or did you just follow along the path you were on when you were a kid?

I like watching good players and I love playing pool. I'm sorry if my remarks upset you. Yep, I'm a no talent player.

Where do you think you would be now if you put the same effort into other endevours?

I guess what I am saying is, don't complain about the payouts, you knew up front that it was pretty slim pickings.

As for the mythical creature - a pool player with money. Lighten up. It's a joke - albeit may hit a little close to home for some.

marktadd
11-12-2004, 02:34 PM
ok you win im done . you guys are to smart and rich and and have better jobs than poor ole pool players nice chating with you folks /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif my posts at this site runs off like water off a ducks back. try not to ruin it to much for those that want to learn the game . hmmm mabey its not the pool players at . mabey the problems are with those that think they are better than pool players ....................

marktadd
11-12-2004, 02:41 PM
another non pool player question? i wont answer that till you tell me what is your relation to pool 2. why are your here at this forum and 3. what do you for a living ., for anyone from here out that asks me questions like theses gentlemen have please post and answer to my qualifiers so it will be easier to answer instead of going the long way . ty mark /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

marktadd
11-12-2004, 02:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> Mark,

As for the mythical creature - a pool player with money. Lighten up. It's a joke - albeit may hit a little close to home for some. <hr /></blockquote>
translation: a pool player with money? comon mark you know im just kidding. but its true even for many on this forum . lol
hmmm sad........

Tom_In_Cincy
11-12-2004, 03:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr> another non pool player question? i wont answer that till you tell me what is your relation to pool

<font color="blue"> I am a pool player, I play in tournaments, local and regional and also national. </font color>

2. why are your here at this forum

<font color="blue"> I enjoy sharing my opinions with others. I also have learned a lot from open and civil discussions. I also post and read on Inside Pool and AZ Billiards forums.. </font color>

3. what do you for a living .,

<font color="blue"> I work for a living (network engineer), I also run pool tournaments. I also average $700+ a month from pool. </font color>

for anyone from here out that asks me questions like theses gentlemen have please post and answer to my qualifiers so it will be easier to answer instead of going the long way . ty mark /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Now, would you answer the question?
What have you done to deserve more money?

And why you're at it, why don't you answer your own questions? seems fair to me.

<font color="blue"> See, CCB is'nt all that difficult, you ask, you get answers, we discuss. IF you think this is being 'tough' try RSB. </font color>

</font color>

SpiderMan
11-12-2004, 03:53 PM
That is a very good point - snooker is no more exciting a spectator sport than any other of the popular "pool" games. Perhaps the difference is in the audience and the promotion. After all, snooker is not wildly popular here with the masses ... only overseas do the players enjoy hero status.

SpiderMan

marktadd
11-12-2004, 04:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr> another non pool player question? i wont answer that till you tell me what is your relation to pool

<font color="blue"> I am a pool player, I play in tournaments, local and regional and also national. </font color>

2. why are your here at this forum

<font color="blue"> I enjoy sharing my opinions with others. I also have learned a lot from open and civil discussions. I also post and read on Inside Pool and AZ Billiards forums.. </font color>

3. what do you for a living .,

<font color="blue"> I work for a living (network engineer), I also run pool tournaments. I also average $700+ a month from pool. </font color>

for anyone from here out that asks me questions like theses gentlemen have please post and answer to my qualifiers so it will be easier to answer instead of going the long way . ty mark /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Now, would you answer the question?
What have you done to deserve more money?

And why you're at it, why don't you answer your own questions? seems fair to me.

<font color="blue"> See, CCB is'nt all that difficult, you ask, you get answers, we discuss. IF you think this is being 'tough' try RSB. </font color>

</font color> <hr /></blockquote>you said im a pool player: what have i done ? well because you said you are a POOL player , i will not answer your question because its pointless . if you are a player then if ive failed to make the game better or more or less money. as a player yourself then you failed also. so if were in the same boat then i guess we sink together as pool brothers . wheather you agree or not play tournys , $700 month run tournys. why would another pool player ask another pool player such questions? ask yourself the question. your just as guilty. now you will say well i wasnt trying to make more money in the game im content. ok fine mabey some of us want the game to go further mabey you dont . but thats not commitment i want i would like to shoot for the stars not only the moon if your content with that then thats you choice . mabey we are talking about two different types of players . the ones who are content and those who wont settle for nothing less than the best. im in that last catagory. which one you in? if your in the same one as me then your questions should not be asked . if the first group then i understand .

Popcorn
11-12-2004, 04:55 PM
Make no mistake, Snooker over there is a carefully managed business. I have played in Europe a lot and they have it down. This money doesn't come from some gift horse, it is a profit making endeavor. One thing that they have is open betting on the matches. There are betting windows right at the venues. They draw huge numbers of spectators. I was at the world championships in Sheffield and it was a 30 day tournament. It was sold out every day and night in advance and was on live TV for hours everyday. The only reason I was able to get in was because they sell seats they think will not fill that session. I got some seats that belonged to some people from Scotland and Hendry was not playing that day so they take a chance over selling the seats. Long story short, they make big profits, no shortage of money. If it could be done here like that, then there would be money. Pool can't be a charity, it has to be a business.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-12-2004, 06:09 PM
Mark,
As players and fanatics about the game we love, it is an honest question. What have you done to make pool better?

Why should pool players make anymore money than they are now?

I know the answer, do you?

marktadd
11-12-2004, 06:46 PM
well ive put my time in the game . ive stired up action wherever ive ever gone. just being a player counts for something doesnt it? no players means no tourneys or pool rooms for that matter . played many tourneys and much expenses per year. its not the pool players responsibility to get more money in the game . we just need to be available and thats a fact. how much do you make running tournys? if you say it charity work then how do you make 700 a month playing pool? gambling? so pool players are making you 700 a month by showing up.and having the skills to show up or no 700 a month right. so what have you done to make it better for them? you do it for free well someones making money if you do it for free. if you get paid then its your responsibility to make it better for them. tiger doesnt do anything to promote golf except make a showingand having skills and the sponsers make him the money same in all sports as well as actors. the bottom line is their are more games americans like more than pool. a baseball does nothing to promote baseball. it cant talk. it is popular because of what it is and what it does and is in demand. i dont blame copper for not being able to be as popular as a diamond. it is what it is and is and will never be as popular as a diamond or gold. but diamonds and gold never said a word to promote it self. it just sparkles and shines and does what it is supposed to do. the people speak and say we want diamonds and gold and will take a little copper thus diamonds are popular and high priced and in demand with out a word out of their shiny mouth. and copper of little value. and pool vs. golf the people have spoke. bottom line is pool is not in demand in america and may never be. case closed:) so dont blame the players hope this helps .

Tom_In_Cincy
11-12-2004, 08:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
MarkTadd said: its not the pool players responsibility to get more money in the game . we just need to be available and thats a fact. <hr /></blockquote>

Mark, here's hoping you're available when that happens.

marktadd
11-13-2004, 03:17 AM
me too:)

Irish
11-13-2004, 05:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
<font color="blue"> Now, would you answer the question?
What have you done to deserve more money? <hr /></blockquote>

What has ANY baseball player, hockey player, golfer, basketball player, soccer player, tennis player, football player, ect... done to earn the millions of dollars they earn? What is it that makes them so different? I dont know if the coke snorting Edmonton Oiler stanley cup team was any more deserving of money then any pool player out there. How about OJ Simpson, how is he deserving of all that money he made again? Roberto Allomar, yep real worthy of those millions a season. Hell lets look at Tiger Woods, what the hell has he done to earn 10's of millions of dollars a season? Be the best at a sport? Well that sure as hell does not work in pool. Who gives a [censored] about attitude or if a pool player spends 12 hours a day spoon feeding cancer patients in a [censored] hospital to try and make himself look like some mother [censored] Theresa of pool player martyrs, that aint sports. Get a [censored] clue Tom in Never Neverland, sports all over the world are paying 100's times more money then pool and noone in any other sport is any more deserving of making all that cash then pool players. Being the best in the world at something is what they have done to deserve more, if one did not sign an autograph for you one day and you now feel you must vent on a message board and figure that means they must not deserve their sport to be successful then might I suggest you get a shovel, go into your backyard, and start digging until you find a clue you [censored] asshat. Jesus H Christ you are dumb, tell me what any [censored] sport stars are doing to deserve their millions, please, let me know how pool is so undeserving to be more in line with all the other sports of the world. If you think pool is so lowly compared to all the rest of the sports and should be so low compared to all those other sports then go [censored] post on ESPN and chat about all those high paying sports that are so much more deserving you [censored] moron.

Rich R.
11-13-2004, 06:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr>this forum is more imature and ignorant than az. <hr /></blockquote>
Actually Mark, you are very wrong.

First of all, you would be very surprised at how many people participate in both forums.

On AZB, the group, as a whole, is much more accepting of anything that a pro, or known, player has to say.

On this forum, there is a wealth of knowledge and experience and people do not bow down to anyone who comes on here and thinks they know it all.

All views are welcome on this forum, but, when you try to make a point, you should be ready to defend that point in a discussion. You will not find a lot of blind followers here, but your input is very welcome.

stickman
11-13-2004, 07:04 AM
Pro pool players skills are just as demanding as those of the most successful sports. Sports such as Nascar, football, basketball, baseball, golf, &amp; etc. have just done a much better job of attracting corporate sponsorship. Most pool sponsorship is primarily in the area of pool related products, and the exceptional beverage or tobacco product. When we begin to see a picture of Effren Reyes on the front of a box of Wheaties, or Earl Strickland doing a TV Ad for Viagra, or even Johnnie Archer pitching a hair care product, we'll see pro pool players making the same type of bucks. I think it's all about self-promotion and commercialism.

If others can do it, why can't Jannete Lee, or Earl, or whoever?

An old has-been boxer "George Foreman" (no disrepect intended) has made a fortune doing this. I just watched a TV commercial by Terry Bradshaw. (another has-been) You see it everywhere.

nhp
11-13-2004, 07:59 AM
I really don't know what the hell is wrong with you people.

Mark is a champion, you guys arent. I don't know where you guys get off thinking that to become a champion you just "hit balls around in a poolroom and occasionally match up" ROFL that is just hilarious. Champions spent all day and all night practicing, gambling, playing tournaments, etc.

Pool is a game that takes years and years to become great at it. How does that not deserve more money? Pool is not like a video game, where once you learn how to play, all of a sudden you are good. It takes years to have perfect mechanics, and to obtain alot of knowledge. And yet, there is no perfect pool player. Even the best of the best players miss sometimes, and these people have been playing their whole life.

Mark Tadd is a guy who, in his time, rivaled Mike Segal. He experienced EVERYTHING a pool player could experience. Pool was his life. So now he comes on this board, offers his opinions, and you guys attack him. You guys attack him AS IF YOU KNOW BETTER. Perhaps you guys should learn to humble yourselves, just a little bit. Try to understand where he is coming from.

But no, you can't. Instead of having an open mind, and trying to imagine what Mark has been thru, and why that would cause him to get a little offended from some of the remarks you made, you go on the attack.

If I devoted my entire life to chess, and someone told me that people who do that are little kids, or need to "wake up", that would piss me off. You are degrading him, and you don't care. Let go of the ego, for once, people. You have no respect for a legend of the sport you love.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-13-2004, 09:43 AM
nhp,
If you directed your post to me, you need to read and understand all the posts.

You also need to understand something, you just don't walk into a public place and spout insults and make claims of greatness and tell everyone that their opinions are WRONG.

Imagine, if you can, how you could possibly be respected?

Tom_In_Cincy
11-13-2004, 10:06 AM
irish,

If the top 50 world class pool players are capable of making the same as the top 50 sports figures of any sport (golf, football, basketball, NASCAR, Tennis, baseball) then why aren't they?

It's because they don't have a product to sell. No one wants to buy it. NO ONE.

Even Mark said it will take an indiviual that wants to give MILLIONS away to get money into pool.

What is so difficult to understand?

If you would spend more time working for the pool players instead of insulting people, you might be able to work this problem out all by yourself and make a lot of world class pool players very happy.

My guess is that you can't offer one small piece of advice to any pool player to make more money.

Hope your anger and insulting ways made you feel better.

stickman
11-13-2004, 10:24 AM
In my mind I would see Earl Strickland as one of the most widely recognized figures in mens' pro pool. For the women, I would say that Allison Fisher, and Jannette Lee rank high. Being widely recognized and hanging out is not enough to insure their commercial success. They may need to develop new skills. I think pro pool needs a pioneer like Richard Petty was for Nascar. It will take someone to reach out to product vendors, not simply wait for the vendors to come to them. For instance, why could Earl not sell himself to vendors that he could sell product just as good as Tiger Woods at a much more economical rate. Jannette could sell me anything. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, that's what I think it will take before pro pool begins to see the dollars made in the major sports.

Irish
11-13-2004, 01:58 PM
So TiC, first you say it is the pro's faults that their sport is not making them enough money, blaming them personally. Now you blame the sport and the fact pool itself is not a marketable product. Nice shift in position, I am much more apt to agree with your second choice. I do think 9-ball in its current form is a crap game that is only marketable a point, and that point is reached.

nhp
11-13-2004, 05:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> nhp,
If you directed your post to me, you need to read and understand all the posts.

You also need to understand something, you just don't walk into a public place and spout insults and make claims of greatness and tell everyone that their opinions are WRONG.

Imagine, if you can, how you could possibly be respected? <hr /></blockquote>

Can you please point out where my insults are located? I am pointing out how what you have said is an insult to people like Mark Tadd. You are not a champion, Tom. You are a tournament director.

In my post I pointed out that people like you should have an open mind, and try to understand where a past champion like Mark is coming from. Me pointing out that you have a closed-mind is not an insult. That's more like constructive criticism.

Imagine, if you were to tell a person who has mastered a very tough sport, that they don't deserve to make money, after they have dedicated their WHOLE LIFE to the sport, do you think that person would respect you?

Think about it.

nhp
11-13-2004, 05:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> You will not find a lot of blind followers here,. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know what's worse, being a blind-follower or closed-minded.

mike6262
11-13-2004, 08:27 PM
Jeanette Lee said "she could'nt live on tournaments alone" and i doubt any of the men could either. But that being said i could live on 100K a year especaially playing pool.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-13-2004, 09:37 PM
nhp,

I never said I was a champion, but that doesn't matter when we are in discussion about why there isn't more money in pool.



Until pool players work harder at making their sport a better product, what money there is in the sport is all there is.

That is all I said.

I never said pool players deserved less. I just said that if this is all they are going to do, don't expect any more.

Rich R.
11-14-2004, 06:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I don't know what's worse, being a blind-follower or closed-minded. <hr /></blockquote>
Being closed-minded may be worse, but I believe I stated that Mark's views were welcome. That is not being closed minded. However, I do believe he has to be prepared to explain why he may have a particular view about some pool practice or theory.
There have been posters on this forum, in the past, who expected everyone else to blindly follow anything they said, without any explanation. They would state that they were professionals and that was that.
When people questioned them, they would break into a series of insults.
I don't want to see those events repeat themselves.

I repeat, I welcome Marks views.

Irish
11-14-2004, 06:16 AM
Are you trying to compare Mark Tadd to Fast Larry?

Rich R.
11-14-2004, 06:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr> Are you trying to compare Mark Tadd to Fast Larry? <hr /></blockquote>
I did not mention any names, because I didn't want to compare Mark to anyone in particular. Fast Larry is certainly a prime example. However, there have been others, to a lesser degree.

I whole heartily believe that Mark is not another FL. However, it is possible to go in that direction, without being as extreme as FL.

I, for one, welcome anyones views. We could have learned a lot from FL, if he had been civil. I think we can learn from anyone, whether pro player or not. I just want to make it clear to Mark, or anyone else, that there will be questions. The forums are for an open discussion of all things pool related and sometimes there are opposing views.
In pool, there is no absolute right or wrong way to do things.

marktadd
11-15-2004, 04:46 AM
have i not debated? what does your very wrong mean. wrong about what? you didnt say. did you mean wrong about people must agree with me ? i dont remember saying it if thats what you mean. if not then tell me why im wrong. i have no problem proving who i am.
what are you asking or saying?

#### leonard
11-15-2004, 06:51 AM
Tom it is 45 years since I wrote the article for the American Billiard Review in which I said we should copy the golf pros by taking pool to the country clubs where the rich and the powerful are.

When I took over the Albany Golden Cue in 1969 we opened with Joe Balsis/Irving Crane and with adv and sports promotion. I was friends with the Sports Editors of Both Local Newspapers, we were able to draw roughly 250 people for 4 matches.

Six months later I played Irving Crane at Wolferts Roost Country Club. They had 250+ and they turned away another 100+ because women weren't allowed in the Mens Section. It was then that I knew that thru the CC set pool could be promoted.

I had always reasoned that there was no one in the poolroom business that could commit their adv budget to promote pool but Company Presidents hang in the CC and if they are taken with something they can put their might behind it.

I received not one reply to the article and no pool pro I talked to could see the Forest for the Trees. That was when I came up with my favorite saying "Pools for Fools" and I had no trouble quitting playing pool because I was born with a brain. I couldn't justify going to pool tourneys when at the end of the event people were getting bum checks. The only thing was I should have been going to College and Ignoring the Pool Bug. It was some addiction, here it is 50+ years later and I still have it.

Most people don't know that 90% of golf tourneys are run for charities and they provide the 1000+ workers that it takes to run one event and if they were just paid minimum wage the Golfers would be getting 100,000 for winning an event not the million they get now.

To this day they have never tried to copy the Pro- Golfers and go thru the Country Club set. The only pool player that used the method was Ray Martin when he co wrote his book with Rooseer Reeves who was President of J.Walter Thompson adv agency.

When the medical community comes up with Brain Transplants there might be hope for pool. This is Sad Humor.####

#### leonard
11-15-2004, 06:59 AM
Mark watching nineball is like watching grass grow. In 6 hours of watching nineball at Turning Stone Casino I saw maybe 100 balls made but I did watch Charlie Williams chalk his cue one thousand times. ####

bomber
11-15-2004, 07:49 AM
This is a simple question with many simple answers:

Pool has a low demand with a high supply...its simple economics. I love pool and wish that I could make a great living doing it, but its obvious that I nor most people cannot. Even at its highest level, the earnings at pool is low. Everyone should know this before entering into the sport as a proffesion. I am a teacher...I knew that I would make little money doing it. I do it anyways because I love it. Now, I do not complain about my salary even though I feel like I should make more. There is a high supply of teachers which drives our salaries down. Pool is different that sports like golf and baseball because there is fewer athletes in those sports who can compete at a high level. Plus, the demand is higher. You cant cry over not making money at pool...you should have known that.

stickman
11-15-2004, 09:06 AM
HUH?

SpiderMan
11-15-2004, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr> have i not debated? what does your very wrong mean. wrong about what? you didnt say. did you mean wrong about people must agree with me ? i dont remember saying it if thats what you mean. if not then tell me why im wrong. i have no problem proving who i am.
what are you asking or saying? <hr /></blockquote>

Mark,

When you're reading the posts, especially if you are responding, it's a good idea to click on the "threaded" option near the top of your screen. That makes it easier to see what comments go with which prior comments. Notice that the post of yours that I'm answering is tagged onto the bottom of a post by Stickman, but that's probably not the one you were actually trying to answer because they don't seem to relate to one another. Just trying to help!

SpiderMan

Papasmurf
11-15-2004, 12:04 PM
The top pros clear around 300k to 500K per year with sponcer money. Sometimes they will make more if they when more the usual. The best I have heard of in one year is 940K.

woody_968
11-15-2004, 12:15 PM
May I ask where you got these figures from?

Wally_in_Cincy
11-15-2004, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Papasmurf:</font><hr> The top pros clear around 300k to 500K per year with sponcer money. Sometimes they will make more if they when more the usual. The best I have heard of in one year is 940K. <hr /></blockquote>

Papa, with all due respect, I believe you are mistaken. From info I have been able to piece together over the years I would estimate Jeanette Lee as the highest paid pool player at 150 to 200K, including tourneys, exhibitions, and sponsorships. Earl and Allison would be next on the list. Throw Archer in there too.

but I could be wrong..

Papasmurf
11-15-2004, 12:31 PM
Thats just what I heard at the billiard expo from the sponsors in Las Vegas. I dont know if its true or not.

Deeman2
11-15-2004, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Papasmurf:</font><hr> Thats just what I heard at the billiard expo from the sponsors in Las Vegas. I dont know if its true or not. <hr /></blockquote>

DO NOT LISTEN TO SPONSORS AT A BILLIARDS EXPO. They might be used car salemen. Besides, you risk descriution of the earth as it would tip over with all the legitimate players who have given up the game rushing to wherever the nect tournament was held. You may, in fact, be an unsuspecting victim of Ohio vote counters where, apparently, 4 or 5 millions votes were misplaced. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Just kidding.

Your totals might match a man's income if he won every pro title in the world plus a few hundred other local events.

Deeman
I smell Ron and #### coming out of retirement....

ted harris
11-16-2004, 12:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> If your an example of a Champion Pool Player, then you are also an example of why this game doesn't get more money from bigger sponsers. <hr /></blockquote>
Totally uncalled for...

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>What have YOU or any pool player done to EARN MORE money than the current prize levels?<hr /></blockquote>
Mark has brought excellence to the game, as many others have. What else is a player supposed to do?

ted harris
11-16-2004, 12:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>mtadd,
"hard work" I wonder if you really know what that means to a real sports professional?

It usually means more than 60hrs a week practicing or competing in your profession. It usually means more than 9 months of intense competition. It usually means that you are always being tested to your fullest with every contest. It usually means that your body has to be kept in excellent condition. It usually means that your team mates depend on you or that your competition respects your game so much, that it drives them to practice more. It usually means that you are very well known and respected in your sport. And all of this means that you are usually well paid for your efforts.

Most Pool players (only the very top few are exceptions) cannot come close to this type of HARD WORK.
Hitting balls in a pool hall and occasionaly matching up and playing in tournaments is not HARD WORK.

It is your only work. <hr /></blockquote>
Man, you are way off base. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif I have never seen a pool player exhibit the discipline and tenacity of Mark Tadd. He is a different breed of player than you know.

ted harris
11-16-2004, 12:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
On this forum, there is a wealth of knowledge and experience and people do not bow down to anyone who comes on here and thinks they know it all.<hr /></blockquote>
I don't remember hearing Mark say he knows everything.

ted harris
11-16-2004, 12:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I really don't know what the hell is wrong with you people.

Mark is a champion, you guys arent. I don't know where you guys get off thinking that to become a champion you just "hit balls around in a poolroom and occasionally match up" ROFL that is just hilarious. Champions spent all day and all night practicing, gambling, playing tournaments, etc.

Pool is a game that takes years and years to become great at it. How does that not deserve more money? Pool is not like a video game, where once you learn how to play, all of a sudden you are good. It takes years to have perfect mechanics, and to obtain alot of knowledge. And yet, there is no perfect pool player. Even the best of the best players miss sometimes, and these people have been playing their whole life.

Mark Tadd is a guy who, in his time, rivaled Mike Segal. He experienced EVERYTHING a pool player could experience. Pool was his life. So now he comes on this board, offers his opinions, and you guys attack him. You guys attack him AS IF YOU KNOW BETTER. Perhaps you guys should learn to humble yourselves, just a little bit. Try to understand where he is coming from.

But no, you can't. Instead of having an open mind, and trying to imagine what Mark has been thru, and why that would cause him to get a little offended from some of the remarks you made, you go on the attack.

If I devoted my entire life to chess, and someone told me that people who do that are little kids, or need to "wake up", that would piss me off. You are degrading him, and you don't care. Let go of the ego, for once, people. You have no respect for a legend of the sport you love. <hr /></blockquote>
Very well said! Bravo to you sir!

Rich R.
11-16-2004, 04:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
On this forum, there is a wealth of knowledge and experience and people do not bow down to anyone who comes on here and thinks they know it all.<hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ted harris:</font><hr>I don't remember hearing Mark say he knows everything. <hr /></blockquote>
Ted, you are correct, but, if you read my post closely, I was only making a general statement about this board. I was not directing that comment directly at Mark.

If anything, you may want to take issue with Mark's statement that the people on this board are ignorant and immature.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-16-2004, 09:34 AM
Ted,
If I am way 'off base' please set me straight.

You say "Mark has brought excellence to the game, as many others have. What else is a player supposed to do?"

Yet you don't provide any other information.
I am willing to change my mind and apologize to Mark and you.

Please help me understand. Surely there is more to your opinion that those few words?

stickman
11-16-2004, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ted harris:</font><hr> Mark has brought excellence to the game, as many others have. What else is a player supposed to do? <hr /></blockquote>

If the goal is simply to be the best player, then nothing more is required. On the other hand, if the goal is to make more money, then it needs to be looked at as a business. As a business person, you should be able to relate. When I owned a portrait studio, and was a member of several professional organizations, I attended many seminars. More than half were on the subject of making more money, and running a more successful business, and had nothing to do with capturing better images. Ideally, you would like to do both. The best photographer doesn't necessarily make the most money, but the best business person does. Isn't it the same for you?

eg8r
11-16-2004, 10:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
another non pool player question? i wont answer that till you tell me what is your relation to pool 2. why are your here at this forum and 3. what do you for a living ., for anyone from here out that asks me questions like theses gentlemen have please post and answer to my qualifiers so it will be easier to answer instead of going the long way . ty mark <hr /></blockquote> This is ridiculous. I can gaurantee you, Mark Tadd is not worth replying to from here on out if he feels he is at a level to request qualifying questions.

Would it be prudent for us to demand he take a few grammar classes before he posted? What is good for the goose...

eg8r

ted harris
11-16-2004, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Ted,
If I am way 'off base' please set me straight.

You say "Mark has brought excellence to the game, as many others have. What else is a player supposed to do?"

Yet you don't provide any other information.
I am willing to change my mind and apologize to Mark and you.

Please help me understand. Surely there is more to your opinion that those few words? <hr /></blockquote>
Evidence...at the LA Open all around championships back in the early nineties, Mark played as close to perfect as could possibly be done. He won the 9-ball, the bank-pool, and came in second in the one-pocket, with several hundred top players competing in the events. I figure that is about as much evidence as needed.
Pool players are for the most part not independantly wealthy. What should they do to attract sponsorship besides represent their sport in a professional manner? Being a professional poolplayer is a catch-22 situation...it is virtually impossible for a player to attract any kind of support in this in this or any industry without first achieving excellence. There is zero incentive for anyone to play pool professionally, other than their love of the game. Entry level pool players, and many pro's live well below the poverty level. The money that players win is just an aside. It's not like they can work for charities and other organizations that bring exposure to our sport, because they are too busy trying to figure out where their next meal is coming from. I mean, people can say all they want that pool players do not represent themselves as other sports figures do, but I don't believe that. There are many players that professionally represent pool. Pool players do in large what they have to do...survive.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-16-2004, 12:25 PM
So, basically you agree with Mark, all he has to do is show up or be available.

It is up to someone else to make sure there is the same amount of money in pool today and tomorrow.

What about more money? what do you suggest pool players and promoters do to INCREASE the amount of money in pool?

That is what I have asked before and all I get is slammed because it offended someone's reputation. I guess I should have been more humble and for that I appologize for anyone (Mark and Ted especially) that I have offended.

If this game is going to be more profitable, then it has to change. IF it stays the same, it will only continue at its current money level, nothing more.

Popcorn
11-16-2004, 12:46 PM
I am not that sure what the players themselves can do to increase money in pool. What was it you are suggesting they do?

Tom_In_Cincy
11-16-2004, 01:24 PM
Good question, I was hoping someone would answer it sooner or later.

How about cleaning up pool's bad image?

Wally_in_Cincy
11-16-2004, 01:30 PM
or band together in a real organization like the WPBA instead of stabbing one another in the back.

Fred Agnir
11-16-2004, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Good question, I was hoping someone would answer it sooner or later.

How about cleaning up pool's bad image? <hr /></blockquote>I don't think the current poker explosion has cleaned up their image. But, a good package, a viewer-friendly format, excellent commentating ( a friggin' must, for pete's sake), and a hot babe roaming in the stands and voila, instant success.

I'd volunteer to be the roaming hot babe, but that might lose viewership.

Fred &lt;~~~ bring televised 8-ball, 10-ball, and short-rack banks on tougher equipment

marktadd
11-16-2004, 04:49 PM
my reason for the qualifiers was aimed at people who are rude and making rude comments to me. not for the others who arent.

stickman
11-16-2004, 05:03 PM
Great idea, Fred!!! Instead of Mr. Sardo racking the balls, let's have hot babes doing it. Sort of like boxing's ring girls. Do they really need someone to indicate what round it is at the conclusion of each round? Nope, but it is more interesting. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif LOL

woody_968
11-16-2004, 07:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> Sort of like boxing's ring girls. <hr /></blockquote>

The year JJ won the open they had a "ring girl" walking around with the rack number. I actually hated it, I thought it cheapend the whole thing and gave it a "rinkydink" feel. Sort of like pool isnt interesting enough, but maybe if we show you this hot chick you will keep watching.

Im not against showing a hot chick, infact I like it /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif But I think it would go over better if she was just racking the balls (easy guys, not like that) instead of walking around with a sign between each game.

JMO

Woody

PQQLK9
11-16-2004, 08:11 PM
Did you see this sleaze preceding Monday Night Football...I was appalled.
ABC Sorry for Intro to 'Monday Night Football'
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138754,00.html

stickman
11-16-2004, 08:58 PM
There is that very attractive woman referee that works some of the professional matches. I don't recall her name but she adds to the viewing enjoyment. I usually she her in a black and white striped referee's uniform. Nothing cheesy but plesantly noticeable non the less.

Barbara
11-16-2004, 09:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> There is that very attractive woman referee that works some of the professional matches. I don't recall her name but she adds to the viewing enjoyment. I usually she her in a black and white striped referee's uniform. Nothing cheesy but plesantly noticeable non the less. <hr /></blockquote>

She's Micaela Tabb. And yes, she is a definite asset to the Referee program. I remember reading that she stood up to Earl's antics with another player.

Funny how you never who the other player was, but just that it was "Earl" and "his antics".

Barbara~~~finally saw "Earl" and "his antics" first hand... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Barbara
11-16-2004, 10:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I'd volunteer to be the roaming hot babe.<hr /></blockquote>

Okay, works for me!! How's Valley Forge sound for your debut? Grab Eric. and I'll send youse two the thongs! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just promise you make a tournament desk pass at least once an hour!!

Barbara~~~oooo!! oooo!! oooo!!

stickman
11-16-2004, 10:34 PM
That's her! I vaguely remember the incident you described. It's been sometime ago, and my mind or memory isn't what it once was. I do remember that pretty lady taking control of the situation though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rich R.
11-17-2004, 04:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Funny how you never who the other player was, but just that it was "Earl" and "his antics".<hr /></blockquote>
It's always Earl, that's why it is so easy to remember. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

bomber
11-17-2004, 07:50 AM
When will you guys just accept it.....pool is BORING to most people! Not too us, of course, because we play pool. Pool is different than golf, nascar, baseball, football, etc... Those things are fun to watch even if you dont play. No one wants to watch a couple of out of shape guys knock little balls into holes in a table....it looks to easy. Pool has no sex appeal, no excitement, no advertising, and no real names or stories to get behind. If you asked my mom, who knows NOTHING about sports, who sammy sosa is...she would know. My mom could not tell you a single pool player that has ever walked the face of the earth except for me.

We as pool players forget to realize just how boring pool is. it isnt to us...we are pool players. I hate watching nascar, but it has a lot of excitement.

marktadd
11-17-2004, 07:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> When will you guys just accept it.....pool is BORING to most people! Not too us, of course, because we play pool. Pool is different than golf, nascar, baseball, football, etc... Those things are fun to watch even if you dont play. No one wants to watch a couple of out of shape guys knock little balls into holes in a table....it looks to easy. Pool has no sex appeal, no excitement, no advertising, and no real names or stories to get behind. If you asked my mom, who knows NOTHING about sports, who sammy sosa is...she would know. My mom could not tell you a single pool player that has ever walked the face of the earth except for me.

We as pool players forget to realize just how boring pool is. it isnt to us...we are pool players. I hate watching nascar, but it has a lot of excitement. <hr /></blockquote>i would bet the ranch she knows who willie mosconi is?

bomber
11-17-2004, 08:06 AM
ill take that bet...MOST people dont know who he is...most people dont care. The people that we know, know who he is. I work at a school...i teach gov./economics at the high school level...i would bet that if i asked 20 of my fellow teachers less than half would know Willie Mosconi. I bet all would know Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Jack Nicklaus, Wayne Gretzky, etc... Facts of life man...our game is not that popular outside of the pool world...we need another Color of Money

JimS
11-17-2004, 08:10 AM
Mosconi yes but how about Greenleaf?

I playe pool quite a bit in the 50's then not at all until 1998.

When I started in again and made the acquaintance of several local players they would mention names like Earl Strickland, Efren Reyes, Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Allen Hopkins, Grady Tate and on and on. I'd NEVER heard of any of them....not once....not anywhere.

Most folks just don't ever get any exposure to pool. They couldn't even begin to appreciate the beauty of watching Buddy or Efren play because they don't know enough to understand the difficulty of going three rails to get perfect on the next shot. They can't possibly know how much the direction of the cb was altered and with what spin and how that spin increased the difficulty of making the table length thin cut. By far the majority of people just don't know enough about the game to appreciate the skill that top players exhibit.

To further illustrate my point...they think trick shots are a measure of skill. (now I suppose I've offended some trick shot aficianado! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

I just read Bombers post and I never stopped to think that people in my generation (I'm 61) know who Mosconi is but younger people might just think he invented the radio.

bomber
11-17-2004, 08:14 AM
to help prove the point...i just took a poll of my senior Economics class...30 students...I asked these 3 questions:

1."How many of you know who Willie Mosconi is?" 0 students

2."How many of you know who Babe Ruth is?" 30 students

3"How many of you know who Johnny Chan is?" 8 students

Rich R.
11-17-2004, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr>Pool is different than golf, nascar, baseball, football, etc... Those things are fun to watch even if you dont play. <hr /></blockquote>
Bomber, you are probably right about pool, but I have to disagree with your opinion on the other sports you mentioned. They are no different than pool. However, they have, somehow, been able to attract the big sponsors.

Golf, to a non-golfer, is like watching grass grow. What good is a game, you don't get to play, once your ball is put in the hole? I prefer pool. You get to continue playing when your ball goes into the hole.

Nascar, to me, is a joke. A bunch of cars going around in a circle. Most people are just waiting for a crash, for excitement. However, I do enjoy other forms a racing, where the drivers are actually required to turn right, once in a while.

Baseball, on TV, is boring. 95% of the time, they just show you the pitcher, catcher and batter. The announcers ramble on worse than Mitch Lawrence. Baseball, at the ball park is much better.

Football used to be better, but they have changed so many rules through the years, to protect the players, it is not the same game it once was. I don't want to see the guys get hurt and end their career, but it is a contact sport and no rule change is going to make it better. Football also has the same problem, with the announcers, as baseball.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr>Pool has no sex appeal, no excitement, no advertising, and no real names or stories to get behind. <hr /></blockquote>
I also have to disagree with this statement.

Sex appeal is in the eye of the beholder. If I were to comment on the appeal of watching certain players, from the WPBA, I may get myself in trouble.

I find pool exiting to watch, for a number of reasons, but I guess I am biased, as I am a player. I use that term loosely.

Mostly, I disagree with your statement about no names or stories to get behind. The pool world is filled with some of the most interesting characters you would ever want to know about. There are some real facinating people. Maybe the TV coverage should explore these things a little more. Maybe some interviews with some of the players would help the non-playing public learn more about these players and the stories they could tell.

bomber
11-17-2004, 08:19 AM
also, none of the students could recognize any of the following names

Efren Reyes, Jennette Lee, Alison Fisher, Nick Varner, Buddy Hall, Johnny Archer, Wille Hoppe, Ralph Greenleaf

At least one student knew the names of the following people:
Phil Helmuth(7 kids), Scotty Nguyen(2 kids), Walter Ray Williams (3 kids)

bomber
11-17-2004, 08:21 AM
i know hundreds of people who watch golf but dont play...including myself

bomber
11-17-2004, 08:26 AM
Rich,

thats is just what YOU think...you have to look at it from the big picture...most people feel the way that i posted...even you and me dont

Rich R.
11-17-2004, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> Rich,

thats is just what YOU think...you have to look at it from the big picture...most people feel the way that i posted...even you and me dont <hr /></blockquote>
Sorry Bomber, you posted what you think and I posted what I think. Both are just opinions, nothing more and nothing less. Neither is more or less valid than the other.
I don't speak for everyone else and I don't believe you can either.

bomber
11-17-2004, 09:12 AM
god... you people sometimes...i want things to be the way that you think they are...but they are not...you have to realize that most people..i would venture to 98% of the population cares absolutely nothing about pool!

marktadd
11-17-2004, 09:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> ill take that bet...MOST people dont know who he is...most people dont care. The people that we know, know who he is. I work at a school...i teach gov./economics at the high school level...i would bet that if i asked 20 of my fellow teachers less than half would know Willie Mosconi. I bet all would know Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Jack Nicklaus, Wayne Gretzky, etc... Facts of life man...our game is not that popular outside of the pool world...we need another Color of Money <hr /></blockquote>20 of your teachers i will take that bet anyday you are trying to prove your point with the wrong example and now your trapped so you just say anything.lolol i guarantee i can ask 20 grown ups who willie mosconi is and they will know . post up buddy.....lololol

bomber
11-17-2004, 09:36 AM
tadd...i just shot a random email out to twenty teachers in my building...2 replied correctly...these also are the two oldest male teachers in my school....non of the other teachers had a clue...of course you will come back and say, oh bullshit, you are just lying to make you point...well, whatever you think...oh, they all knew babe ruth lol

bomber
11-17-2004, 09:38 AM
Also mark, why not ask young people...they are the future of the game...non of these kids play pool...they say it is boring and they dont feel comfortable in the pool rooms around here...if you cant get 17/18 year old boys to know who the most famous pool player of all time is, then how are you ever going to create a buzz around the game of pool...

Popcorn
11-17-2004, 09:39 AM
quote
"i would bet the ranch she knows who willie mosconi is?"

What is funny is, she probably wouldn't, but I would guess she could tell you who Minnesota Fats was. I don't know what that means but I think it would be true.

marktadd
11-17-2004, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> tadd...i just shot a random email out to twenty teachers in my building...2 replied correctly...these also are the two oldest male teachers in my school....non of the other teachers had a clue...of course you will come back and say, oh bullshit, you are just lying to make you point...well, whatever you think...oh, they all knew babe ruth lol <hr /></blockquote>i just shot out 3000 email to all the day cares im my area andthe kids there never heard of babe ruth. but apperantly the heard of baby ruth.lololololololol

marktadd
11-17-2004, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> Also mark, why not ask young people...they are the future of the game...non of these kids play people...they say it is boring and they dont feel comfortable in the pool rooms around here...if you cant get 17/18 year old boys to know who the most famous pool player of all time is, then how are you ever going to create a buzz around the game of pool... <hr /></blockquote>that makes 0000 sence when i started playing pool it wasnt because i heard about how well mosconi played??????????????? lololololololololololololololo

marktadd
11-17-2004, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> quote
"i would bet the ranch she knows who willie mosconi is?"

What is funny is, she probably wouldn't, but I would guess she could tell you who Minnesota Fats was. I don't know what that means but I think it would be true. <hr /></blockquote>wow we agree on something /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif good answer

bomber
11-17-2004, 09:48 AM
actually mark, as an educator i would say that at least 3 of every 10 five year old boys would know who babe ruth or michael jordan was.

marktadd
11-17-2004, 09:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> quote
"i would bet the ranch she knows who willie mosconi is?"

What is funny is, she probably wouldn't, but I would guess she could tell you who Minnesota Fats was. I don't know what that means but I think it would be true. <hr /></blockquote>weather you know it or not that just killed all his posts. and proves my point. i just used the wrong pool figure. his whole point was that no one recognizes a pool platers name and bam popcorn comes through . yeeeeehaaaaaaaaaa. so BOMB go ask your teachers about FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATSSSSSSSSSSSS /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif LOLOLOL

Popcorn
11-17-2004, 09:52 AM
Why would you think they would know those names, there is no reason they would. Most gained knowledge is based on relevance, need to know or want to know. Unless they play pool they would not know the pool players. They know the poker player only because they are the flavor of the month and the information has been presented to them on TV, not because the seek it out. Do a two hour lecture on the history of pool and give them the test again I am sure you will get a different result. Also add Minnesota Fats, Fast Eddie Felson, to the list you asked them about and you may get 100% who know. You created a test that would produce the result you wanted.

marktadd
11-17-2004, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> actually mark, as an educator i would say that at least 3 of every 10 five year old boys would know who babe ruth or michael jordan was. <hr /></blockquote>YUP GOOD THING I SAID DAY CARE AND NOT KINDERGARDEN????????????? I USED TO TAKE MY SON TO DAYCARE ....... HE WAS 6 MONTHS OLD???????????

bomber
11-17-2004, 09:56 AM
untrue...i asked the people about many players....as i said before...they didnt know any of them...plain and simple...people are just not interested in pool and the majority of the population neither knows anything about it or cares anything about it...thats the point...people dont care about pool and that is why it is not successful....its that simple

marktadd
11-17-2004, 09:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Why would you think they would know those names, there is no reason they would. Most gained knowledge is based on relevance, need to know or want to know. Unless they play pool they would not know the pool players. They know the poker player only because they are the flavor of the month and the information has been presented to them on TV, not because the seek it out. Do a two hour lecture on the history of pool and give them the test again I am sure you will get a different result. Also add Minnesota Fats, Fast Eddie Felson, to the list you asked them about and you may get 100% who know. You created a test that would produce the result you wanted. <hr /></blockquote>well our agreeing didnt last long..... you forgot you said something that was for me and against you click buddy lololol they might throw you out of the CLICK NOW,,,,,,,,,,,,,

marktadd
11-17-2004, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> untrue...i asked the people about many players....as i said before...they didnt know any of them...plain and simple...people are just not interested in pool and the majority of the population neither knows anything about it or cares anything about it...thats the point...people dont care about pool and that is why it is not successful....its that simple <hr /></blockquote>well in the mountains there is not alot of info. but where i live there is . so mabey you should move back to civilazation. just a thought

marktadd
11-17-2004, 10:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> untrue...i asked the people about many players....as i said before...they didnt know any of them...plain and simple...people are just not interested in pool and the majority of the population neither knows anything about it or cares anything about it...thats the point...people dont care about pool and that is why it is not successful....its that simple <hr /></blockquote>i think you are in lala land along with popcorn and tom and many others. i think you guys are roomates. and yes you got the breaks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bomber
11-17-2004, 10:14 AM
no, we dont live in la la land..we live in the real world where most people care diddly squat about pool...this is why it will never get off the ground...thats the point

marktadd
11-17-2004, 10:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> no, we dont live in la la land..we live in the real world where most people care diddly squat about pool...this is why it will never get off the ground...thats the point <hr /></blockquote>specialy with you and the clan promoting it

bomber
11-17-2004, 10:22 AM
that is an intelligent comment mark...it is that kind of attitude that gives the sport of pool a bad reputation...no wonder no one wants to be involved in the game anymore

dave
11-17-2004, 10:25 AM
Look at the money list for teachers, nurses, fireman etc., if you want to see a travesty. The people that train, nurture, and protect those with high dollar salaries. People who make a far more significant contribution to society than pool players, or other athletes, for that matter. Our culture pays for what it values and those priorities are screwed up. Don't ask ME to feel sympathy for pool players. Sorry. The post pushed a personal hot button. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

marktadd
11-17-2004, 10:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> Look at the money list for teachers, nurses, fireman etc., if you want to see a travesty. The people that train, nurture, and protect those with high dollar salaries. People who make a far more significant contribution to society than pool players, or other athletes, for that matter. Our culture pays for what it values and those priorities are screwed up. Don't ask ME to feel sympathy for pool players. Sorry. The post pushed a personal hot button. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif <hr /></blockquote>i agree with you /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bomber
11-17-2004, 10:30 AM
as a teacher...i appreciate those comments.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-17-2004, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> no, we dont live in la la land..we live in the real world where most people care diddly squat about pool...this is why it will never get off the ground...thats the point <hr /></blockquote>specialy with you and the clan promoting it <hr /></blockquote>

that's bad form marktadd

insulting folks won't make you any friends here

marktadd
11-17-2004, 10:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> that is an intelligent comment mark...it is that kind of attitude that gives the sport of pool a bad reputation...no wonder no one wants to be involved in the game anymore <hr /></blockquote>comming from you and your buddys that statement is hypocritical. ive made a few comment like that cause it seems to be the way some of you communicate. just trying to fit in and make you feel comfortable lol

marktadd
11-17-2004, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote marktadd:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> no, we dont live in la la land..we live in the real world where most people care diddly squat about pool...this is why it will never get off the ground...thats the point <hr /></blockquote>specialy with you and the clan promoting it <hr /></blockquote>
ing folks won't make you any friends here <hr /></blockquote> i wasnt aware that the guys who have been insulting me were my friends or at least they dont seem to friendly.

bomber
11-17-2004, 10:44 AM
i dont know why you insult and try to generalize about people...that is no way to prove your point....we try to have an intelligent debate about a topic that is dear to us...by debating, perhaps everyone, myself included, can learn and perhaps improve pool...saying that i am in the kkk because i live in kentucky is simply rude...it seems that you are being defensive because i told a simple truth that most players cant see to understand....people except us dont care about pool and thats why it wont get off the ground...we have to do something to make people care about the game....it isnt ring girls or lots of cash...its getting the name of pool out of the gutter and introducing the young people of america to the game the right way. that may sound corny, especially coming from a guy like me only gambles, but its a fact of life. sorry to tell ya the truth, but it is. some of the problems with our game is the gambling, the drugs, simply the mystique that surrounds the game....i am no better than anyone else...im just stating the facts...people see these things, in combonation with its bore, and we see the results (low payouts, no one caring about the game, terrible media exposure, ect...)

woody_968
11-17-2004, 10:45 AM
This is in reply to the last several posts, not just one person, and they are in no particular order.

Of course more people will know Fats and wont know Mosconi, but not because they like pool. They will know him from the movies, maybe a few will know the name because of the stories about him.

Golf was already more popular than pool, but has had certain things to bring non-players into atleast watching the sport. Years ago it was Palmer, Jack, and Player. Even if you didnt play golf seeing these guys go at it on the course was exciting and brought new viewers to the game. As of late it has been Tiger Woods. People that have no clue about golf would watch when he was playing well and winning tournaments. Why? Because they KNEW they were watching someone that will go into the record books. And if he gets his game back he could go down as one of the best ever. In a nutshell they felt like they were watching history in the making.

Nascar, while again already popular, gained several fans due to the unfortunate death of Dale Earnhardt. The coverage of Dales death exposed several new people to the sport, and there were enough things about the sport to keep the attention of some of them.

Now even though we have had some great players in the last several years, and IMO Efren could very well go down as one of the best overall players of all time, outside of the pool world nobody gives a #$&amp;*.

Again, I dont know what the answer is, I wish I did. But I think you guys are splitting hairs over who does or doesnt know a certain name and it all pretty much proves the same thing. Unless people stumble into the game there isnt much to draw them in at this point.

Lets face it, even alot of pool players dont support the game they say they love. If they did you wouldnt see so many local tournaments have only 6 to 8 people show up.

marktadd
11-17-2004, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> i dont know why you insult and try to generalize about people...that is no way to prove your point....we try to have an intelligent debate about a topic that is dear to us...by debating, perhaps everyone, myself included, can learn and perhaps improve pool...saying that i am in the kkk because i live in kentucky is simply rude...it seems that you are being defensive because i told a simple truth that most players cant see to understand....people except us dont care about pool and thats why it wont get off the ground...we have to do something to make people care about the game....it isnt ring girls or lots of cash...its getting the name of pool out of the gutter and introducing the young people of america to the game the right way. that may sound corny, especially coming from a guy like me only gambles, but its a fact of life. sorry to tell ya the truth, but it is. some of the problems with our game is the gambling, the drugs, simply the mystique that surrounds the game....i am no better than anyone else...im just stating the facts...people see these things, in combonation with its bore, and we see the results (low payouts, no one caring about the game, terrible media exposure, ect...) <hr /></blockquote>i know how about we just dont talk about it no more. then all will be well /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

marktadd
11-17-2004, 10:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> i dont know why you insult and try to generalize about people...that is no way to prove your point....we try to have an intelligent debate about a topic that is dear to us...by debating, perhaps everyone, myself included, can learn and perhaps improve pool...saying that i am in the kkk because i live in kentucky is simply rude...it seems that you are being defensive because i told a simple truth that most players cant see to understand....people except us dont care about pool and thats why it wont get off the ground...we have to do something to make people care about the game....it isnt ring girls or lots of cash...its getting the name of pool out of the gutter and introducing the young people of america to the game the right way. that may sound corny, especially coming from a guy like me only gambles, but its a fact of life. sorry to tell ya the truth, but it is. some of the problems with our game is the gambling, the drugs, simply the mystique that surrounds the game....i am no better than anyone else...im just stating the facts...people see these things, in combonation with its bore, and we see the results (low payouts, no one caring about the game, terrible media exposure, ect...) <hr /></blockquote>the kkk?????? when did i say that? your the teacher the spelling is KLAN NOT CLAN AS I WROTE MEANING THAT YOU AND SOME OF THE GUYS HERE SEEM TO BE PART OF A CLAN,INKAHOOTS,CLICK,PARTENERS, RING,CIRCLE OF FRIENDS,ELITE, ECT. NOT KLAN SO PLEASE DONT TRY TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD BY MAKING SUCH STATEMENTS. FOR ALL I KNOW YOU MAY BE BLACK .

Popcorn
11-17-2004, 11:10 AM
Quote
"why it is not successful"

I didn't know pool was not successful. It is far from a fad and although a player may not be able to make a living at it and is not a very good spectator sport, it has been played in one form or another for hundreds of years. I have another test for you to give your students by the way. Ask them

How many have played pool?
Have them rate how much they enjoyed playing.
Do they ever expect to play again?
If they built a house, would they like to have a pool table in the house if they could?
Do they believe that a top pool player is as dedicated as players of other sports?
Would they pay to watch a pool tournament?
Do any of them own a pool cue?
Have any of their fathers or other relatives played or now play pool?
If they play, would they like to get better at it?
Have they ever watched pool when it is on television?
Would they make a point to watch if they know it is on?


I could come up with more questions but that gives you the idea. You need to give the test to a better cross section of people, not just the kids in your class if we want to feel like it is telling us something though. What I think you will find is, even though pool may not be in the forethought of people everyday of their lives, it is however a very popular pastime.

I am not sure how you define the meaning of, "No body cares about pool". They may not find it the most important thing in their lives, but it has a very firm place in our society and is played by many players every day. Some of the failures of pool rooms over the years are just due to economics then a loss of interest by the public. A pool room in a nice area takes a lot of expensive square feet and there is a limit to what can be charged for pool.

If Coca Cola tomorrow had to begin charging $4.00 a can due to economic reason you would see their sales go to nothing. This is not a very good analogy but what I mean by it is, the product of pool is only worth so much, so pool rooms who are not economically viable have to close. This has nothing to do with no body caring about pool. Pool is also not a very good spectator sport for what ever reason, but the same people who would have only limited interest in watching pool still like to play it.

I am not sure how many people would sit on a bank and pay to watch other people fish? Does that mean fishing as a pastime is a failure and no one cares about fishing anymore? No, it just means fishing is what it is, just as pool is what it is. I am not sure what your actual point is in your posts. I guess I am back to the beginning of my post, what do you define as success? Do you believe pool is destine to end up like the Hoola-hoop? You don't think a game that has survived this many years is in any way a successful. I am sorry more people haven't had the opportunity to be exposed to pool. There are few things in my life I enjoy more then just going in my billiard, putting on some music and playing a little straight pool by myself. If it is never anything more then that, for me the game is no failure. You know, I have things to do right now but I think I'm going to go and hit balls for about an hour, the other stuff can just wait. I feel blessed I discovered this game.

bomber
11-17-2004, 11:21 AM
the topic is above mass commericial success popcorn...of course it is successful as pastime...but so is knitting...the point of the conversation is that alot of people seem to think that pool could reach the levels of upper level sports...it cannot...it will not...i wish it could but it wont...and ask yourself this...is pool really a successful pastime? Would you open a pool room and have only pool tables...most pool halls keep the doors open with poker/fruit machines in most parts of america...in larger cities, some rooms can keep the doors open without it...but they couldnt keep the doors open without alcohol!

in most parts of the country, pool rooms keep the doors open with video poker, fruit machines, alcohol, and drugs (an unfortunate truth). facts of life...i would have to say that pool is not a successful pastime...i sure as [censored] wouldnt open a pool room with just pool tables. i would open a book store with just books though or a movie theater with just movie screens.

Popcorn
11-17-2004, 11:25 AM
Did you read my post before answering? Golf would be gone if it had to depend on just green fees. It is a product driven market from balls to shoes.

SpiderMan
11-17-2004, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> Look at the money list for teachers, nurses, fireman etc., if you want to see a travesty. The people that train, nurture, and protect those with high dollar salaries. People who make a far more significant contribution to society than pool players, or other athletes, for that matter. Our culture pays for what it values and those priorities are screwed up. Don't ask ME to feel sympathy for pool players. Sorry. The post pushed a personal hot button. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Part right, but incomplete. Our "pay" is based both on valuation AND supply/demand. How easily can we be replaced?

How many people are capable of being firemen, vs pro athletes? Particularly the higher-paid ones? A star athlete is a very unique item. He may have been born with his talent, and he may be an ass in the bargain, but we cannot easily replace him so he commands a premium.

I have nine years of college and two engineering degrees. Should I be paid more than the top draft pick I went through undergrad with? That would be nice. One of my best friends back home is a fireman, should I have started at twelve times his pay because of lower training requirements to start his job?

Supply and demand - the masses aren't clamoring to see pool players on cereal boxes, and there's a huge supply of firemen (plus hordes more who'd love to have their jobs), so neither are going to get rich. But the fireman is definitely better off, he's got more money than the average pro poolplayer, great benefits, and a pension.

Or compare pay and benefits of the top 100 pro poolplayers with the fire chiefs in the 100 largest cities. Cream of the crop in both cases, who's better off?

Hell, I don't even have a pension, just what I can save and invest. Poor, unappreciated, mistreated engineers!

BTW, you say "our culture" pays for these screwed-up things it values. Are you a part of that culture? When you watch the Big Game on TV, you are paying for these same values you condemn. Without you and millions just like you, those athletes couldn't make so much /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

SpiderMan

yegon
11-17-2004, 01:52 PM
Well there sure is a way to make pool more popular. Television went from straight pool to 9ball to get more people to watch. I do not think the dynamics of the game are the problem, they were fixing a problem that was not there. Just watch a snooker match and you will notice that it is very similar to straight pool.

How comes the snooker players are national heroes in england?
How comes Steve Davis was a Sportsman of the year and is as popular as a movie star in the UK?
How comes the prize money in snooker is so high (up to nearly a million USD for the winner of the most prestigious tournamets)?

what are the snooker promoters doing better than the pool camp?

bomber
11-17-2004, 03:11 PM
they dont have as many major sports competing with pool...also, pool in england has a better reputation that american pool does.

Popcorn
11-17-2004, 03:13 PM
You can bet on snooker. They have betting windows right in the tournament and bookies all over the place.

SpiderMan
11-17-2004, 03:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> they dont have as many major sports competing with pool...also, pool in england has a better reputation that american pool does. <hr /></blockquote>

That's true, it's often a "club membership" thing like golf is here. They have public houses like we have public links, but also a lot of pretty classy private clubs. When I was working in Bedford, I went with a co-worker to his snooker club. They actually peeked at you and your membership card through a hole in the door, before they'd let you into the stairwell.

SpiderMan

Keith Talent
11-17-2004, 04:48 PM
Sorry to be longwinded and over-philosophical ... but here's a thought.

That snooker is still so popular and a moneymaker in England while pool is just a niche game here probably tells you something about the differences between the two societies. I'm speaking as somebody married to a Brit.

As far as I can tell, there are a couple of factors at work here. First is tradition, which is a powerful presence there, while we tend to move around and chase novelties here. For example, my wife can hardly believe people routinely build houses out of wood here, rather than stone. I mean, it's common for people to live in 200-year-old houses over there, and that respect for tradition carries over to a devotion to things that are considered peculiarly English, a few of which are tennis, tea and snooker, and of course, golf. People take vacation to SIT AT HOME and watch Wimbledon there, if you can believe that. You go to a public park and you can bet they'll serve tea ON REAL CHINA in the afternoon. You can take the set to a bench ... I've even seen oldsters sitting in their car having tea.

Another factor is that, opposed to the U.S., England is primarily an INDOORS culture because of the miserable weather. People sit around a whole lot in smoky pubs. I think that makes something like sitting around watching an indoor game like pool come more naturally to them. This might sound strange, especially to you southerners, but I've heard them on local TV over there talk about how great it would be to move to Australia or the U.S. and have more of "an outdoor life" with backyard barbecues and such.

Here, I don't know ... we'll watch hockey and basketball in the winter, but that's about it, right?

I'd like to see more pool on TV and more prize money, sure, but where's the Arnold Palmer of pool ... and the network willing to make a big deal about him? Legal betting onsite might help, but it's going to be an uphill battle for a culture that worships fads and car-chase flicks.

dave
11-17-2004, 06:38 PM
Next time you, or one of your loved ones, are in the hospital be sure and tell that nurse caring for your well being that you're sorry that she doesn't make more money because she's a dime a dozen. It's really just a matter of supply and demand after all.

Dagwood
11-17-2004, 09:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> Legal betting onsite might help, but it's going to be an uphill battle for a culture that worships fads and car-chase flicks. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree pretty much with your entire post up until this last statement. It's not car-chase flicks that we're hooked on, it's reality television.

A while ago, I think last January, someone brought up the idea of having a reality television show about road players/touring profesionals. I think that would be one way to advertise the sport; you would be able to watch the problems that arise while you are on the road trying to make your bones, figuring out where your next meal is coming from, or where you are going to sleep that night. As well it would be able to highlight some of the more colorfull personalities of today. If they are following traveling tournament players, then they can follow up the show with tournament coverage. The viewer at that point has a vested interest in at least one of the players in the tournament, so there is a better possibility for them to watch. Whether or not this will promote more revenue for the sport is something else entirely. I partially agree with Mark though, in that someone who is very well to do would have to step up and for all intents and purposes donate millions of dollars to the game to give it a jump start. Even then, I don't think that there would be enough money to do that...unless that person was Bill Gates.

(Brainstorming here...)One thing that I think may catch on is "team pool", i.e. Mosconi Cup style play, or Patriot Cup style play, but with more than two teams competing. Maybe teams from select cities around the world. That way people have a local team to cheer for. But a page would have to be taken out of the poker shows book, and that is to have a mini segment about some of the players there. (I know this was mentioned previously). That way they are not just names on the screen, but actual people who are working for a living.

Just a few thoughts...Dags

frog
11-17-2004, 10:06 PM
As a captain in a large metro fire dept. I can see, and feel the economic factors that affect pay/wage conditions in relation to supply, and demand. One missing variable is life risk. BTW I am happy that not a lot of pro pool players, or engineers die in the line of duty.

marktadd
11-18-2004, 01:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> Next time you, or one of your loved ones, are in the hospital be sure and tell that nurse caring for your well being that you're sorry that she doesn't make more money because she's a dime a dozen. It's really just a matter of supply and demand after all. <hr /></blockquote>I THINK THAT SUMS IT UP GOOD POST DAVE

SpiderMan
11-18-2004, 07:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote frog:</font><hr> As a captain in a large metro fire dept. I can see, and feel the economic factors that affect pay/wage conditions in relation to supply, and demand. One missing variable is life risk. BTW I am happy that not a lot of pro pool players, or engineers die in the line of duty. <hr /></blockquote>

You and I both, though my Ft Worth fireman buddy says I'm more likely to be killed in or near a poolroom than he on the job. After watching three killed in a shootout at Mickey Finn's on Mockingbird several years back, I think he may be on to something!

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
11-18-2004, 07:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> Next time you, or one of your loved ones, are in the hospital be sure and tell that nurse caring for your well being that you're sorry that she doesn't make more money because she's a dime a dozen. It's really just a matter of supply and demand after all. <hr /></blockquote>

Dave, that would be stupid. Do you say that to the auto mechanic that's replacing the brakes on your wife's mini-van? If you make a lot more than him, it's probably for the same reason. Just because it's true doesn't mean people want you to rub it in. Our lives and theirs are mostly a result of past choices by ourselves and our benefactors.

That goes for professional poolplayers as well, and you guys that taunt them for being losers in a dead-end job should lighten up. Realize that their choices were probably somewhat driven by the fact that they discovered they had a talent not shared by the masses, worked with that talent because it was satisfying, and perhaps didn't realize until much later that "equitable" compensation for their uniqueness might not be there.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
11-18-2004, 07:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dagwood:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> Legal betting onsite might help, but it's going to be an uphill battle for a culture that worships fads and car-chase flicks. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree pretty much with your entire post up until this last statement. It's not car-chase flicks that we're hooked on, it's reality television.

A while ago, I think last January, someone brought up the idea of having a reality television show about road players/touring profesionals. I think that would be one way to advertise the sport; you would be able to watch the problems that arise while you are on the road trying to make your bones, figuring out where your next meal is coming from, or where you are going to sleep that night. As well it would be able to highlight some of the more colorfull personalities of today. If they are following traveling tournament players, then they can follow up the show with tournament coverage. The viewer at that point has a vested interest in at least one of the players in the tournament, so there is a better possibility for them to watch. Just a few thoughts...Dags <hr /></blockquote>

Damn! I think that's a fine idea. I've heard about some of the reality shows, and it sounded pretty stupid, but I'd definitely watch a series based on your idea. Sort of like "Then Came Bronson" with a poolhall theme!

SpiderMan

dave
11-18-2004, 08:59 AM
Inherent in your posts is the belief that the ability to run fast or hit hard (on the part of athletes) is a talent of higher value than someone who has the knowlege, compassion and experience to protect your life in a critical care situation, or the person who is willing to risk their LIFE to save the life and property of others, or the educator who dedicates their life to the service their students and community with the foreknowlege of no monetary reward. I DO believe that YOU personally should be paid more than a professional athlete considering your high level of education and lasting contribution you make to society. What's the average second string basketball player's salary? I'm guessing around 4 million? That's roughly the equivalent of 80 teacher's salaries. My only point is we value entertainment over these other more significant professions and I think that is wrong. That's what I'm critical of. I've said enough. I'm done; as this has nothing to do with pool. I apologize if I personalized this. That was not my intent and I enjoy most of your posts. All the best.

bomber
11-18-2004, 09:42 AM
everyone is going to agree with your reply....but if you look at it in reality, we value professional athletes more than we do doctors and, in economic theory, that is ok...the number of professional athletes is so signifigantly lower than doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc...
Therefore, their skill is more valuable as long as we, as a society, put value on it. Of course, teachers &amp; nurses are more important that quaterbacks. But there are only 32 NFL starting quaterbacks. There are thousands or millions of the other two.

bomber
11-18-2004, 09:43 AM
you have to look at it subjectively to get a valid answer to these types of questions. gotta use the science lol

Popcorn
11-18-2004, 10:18 AM
Your are confusing the term value. The athlete may not save any lives but his value is to the employer. He make them millions of dollar and deserves his cut regardless what we may think what he does is really worth. Same with entertainers. If a movie makes 100's or millions the star deserves their share. That is their value, not what they actually do. If a pool player could demonstrate how they could make money for someone else then they would have a right to a share. Some people have unique talents that are not worth anything, fast swimmers or high jumpers and runners. They can do things no one else can do but it isn't worth anything. Want to make money, find a way to make money for others and there will be some for you. A manufacture that can make a good product that can be built for a price where the wholesaler and distributor and retailer can all make a profit will make money. It is a very simple formula.

SpiderMan
11-18-2004, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> Inherent in your posts is the belief that the ability to run fast or hit hard (on the part of athletes) is a talent of higher value than someone who has the knowlege, compassion and experience to protect your life <hr /></blockquote>

No, I said nothing about what I personally value. But if running fast IS a valued talent, AND excellence is scarce (in the degree exhibited by certain individuals), THEN it will command a high price.

Since that happens, I have to objectively say that the "supply and demand" logic seems to hold. If I were posting my emotional response I would probably agree with you, as would many, but I am instead making an analysis.

This was not intended to insult any profession. I apologize if it came across that way. I don't even watch football, basketball, baseball, Knott's Landing, or whatever else is on TV, but I'm comfortable with jocks being paid more than I (or my doctor/nurse/fireman/mechanic).

Those runners and ball-bouncers do things I can't, not even if I had chosen their path years ago, and many will put the universe on hold to watch. That is not true of my doctor's profession, nor of most others.

SpiderMan

dave
11-18-2004, 10:56 AM
I like your reasoning. Then as an educator, I think I'll ask for a percentage share of the salary of all the people I've helped to educate over the past 25 years. Even a fraction of a percentage would make me a multimillionare. I'll bring up during the next contract negotiations and see if it flys. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif If players deserve a cut of the profits, then I deserve a share of the total profits made from the product I produce, right? I promise I'll shut up now. I realize I'm not being objective or realistic.This is merely emotional venting at this point. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bomber
11-18-2004, 11:02 AM
i am a teacher as well...i dont think that we "deserve" a higher salary for what we put up with each day, but reallity says otherwise...i have a history degree, if i wanted to make more money, i would work as a historian in the private sector or continue my education towards a phd. they are more valued because they are in more of a demand...teachers are emotionally valued but technically in low demand, so their monetary value is zilch....same as pool players...low demand of great players and a large amount of them...low salaries

Popcorn
11-18-2004, 11:22 AM
You would not want to be held responsible for every failure you have taught either. The point is with my other post, if as a result of what someone does money is made, even stupid stuff like being a rapper or what ever, you have a right to your share. Also like the pool player you choose your profession and knew what it initialed right from the start I don't think the problems of being a teacher were a surprise to you. It would be nice if they could pay teachers more as well as weed out all the bad teachers who aren't even worth what they are being paid now. I think you are ignoring that the quality of teachers is not always evident, there are bad ones and good ones. Athletes screw up and they lose their jobs they will be done. Same with an entertainer, stop making money and your are a has-been. A teacher can go through the motions not making waves and accomplish almost nothing while keeping their job for a lifetime, we all had teachers like that. I have a real problem with teachers and their quality. I would go as far as to say there may be more bad ones then good ones but that is for the other board.

bomber
11-18-2004, 12:00 PM
as a teacher, i agree with just about everything you say...especially there are more bad ones than good ones...alot of them go through the motions...it makes me sick...i consider myself an excellent teacher...i love my kids and i work hard for them...but as a whole, teachers aint all that great...its a pretty easy job to get and it can be a pretty easy job to do if you want it to be...thats why i make a crappy salary

Keith Talent
11-18-2004, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dagwood:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> Legal betting onsite might help, but it's going to be an uphill battle for a culture that worships fads and car-chase flicks. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree pretty much with your entire post up until this last statement. It's not car-chase flicks that we're hooked on, it's reality television.
<hr /></blockquote>

Hey, I just meant the we like things that are fast, loud and kinda dumb ... and pool, if it ain't exactly intellectual, is pretty subtle and quiet, and sort of slow.

But I like the reality TV idea. I also think people will watch about anything if it involves a contest for huge sums of money. Maybe somebody would want to go way out on a limb and bankroll a super-tournament ... but I think you'd have to jazz up the whole scene like they're doing for bowling. Schlubs in saggy jeans won't sell nuthin! I'm not saying formal, but the players would have to get some wardrobe assistance and come out looking hip, to some degree.

But face it, the game you like is not the game you could sell to the general public, or it already would have been done. Maybe speed pool, with a big blinking clock, 15 secs to clear the table, no safeties. And FL will be world champ ... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif