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vliam
11-10-2004, 08:29 AM
I'm uncertain about the situation that arises when a person performs an "in-an-safe" on an open table. Does it determine the group of balls which the player must shoot?
My thinking is that it may be used to assign a group to a player. However, there is one line that seems to contradict this.

The relevant rules for this question are as follows:


4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

4.12 "SAFETY" SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a "safety" to the opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.


4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes..

Can someone explain the purpose of this third passage which seemingly contradicts those above?

Troy
11-10-2004, 09:06 AM
Simply put, the reason for this rule became necessary due to "Bar Boxes" where balls can NOT be spotted.

My opinion is that a ball made on a "safety" declares the shooters choice of stripes or solids, but I'm not positive about this.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote vliam:</font><hr>
4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes..

Can someone explain the purpose of this third passage which seemingly contradicts those above? <hr /></blockquote>

vliam
11-10-2004, 09:33 AM
Another interestng referrence to this situation is the BCA League Operator's manual

Here's a link to it...
http://www.playbca.com/bca/Finals/Full102004.pdf

Page 16, Sections 3 and 4, speak of making the 8-ball out of turn on an open table when attempting an in-and-safe. The fact that the manual only addresses situations in which the called ball is not made seems to indicate that the pocketing of the ball would result in group selection.

vliam
11-10-2004, 09:45 AM
Troy, I understand the inclusion of the rule and don't disagree with it. In fact, it makes for a more interesting, strategic game in some rare cases.

However, I still don't understand the addition of the third case, "a safety is called prior to the shot". This seems to label the in-and-safe as an illegally pocketed ball which can otherwise never be used for group determination.

I can't wait for a rewrite of these rules. This sort of contradiction, combined with the ambiguity of others, make the rules unreadable.

Barbara
11-10-2004, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr>My opinion is that a ball made on a "safety" declares the shooters choice of stripes or solids, but I'm not positive about this.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote vliam:</font><hr>
4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes..

Can someone explain the purpose of this third passage which seemingly contradicts those above? <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Troy,

It is my interpretation, and I hope there is an expert out there that will ring in on this, that if you have not established your pattern of balls and call a safety and pocket a ball, you still have not established your pattern of balls.

Barbara

Troy
11-10-2004, 10:28 AM
I can read it that way too Barbara. Maybe I'm thinking way too much on all those years of Bar Pool that ruined my game... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr>My opinion is that a ball made on a "safety" declares the shooters choice of stripes or solids, but I'm not positive about this.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote vliam:</font><hr>
4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes..

Can someone explain the purpose of this third passage which seemingly contradicts those above? <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Troy,

It is my interpretation, and I hope there is an expert out there that will ring in on this, that if you have not established your pattern of balls and call a safety and pocket a ball, you still have not established your pattern of balls.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

SPetty
11-10-2004, 11:10 AM
This has been discussed here in the past, and the conclusion is that because the safety illegally pockets the ball, the table is still open.

vliam
11-10-2004, 11:12 AM
This is all very confusing. I find it odd that this question is specifically addressed in the referee certification exam when there is no clear answer.

On a related note, I don't suppose anyone has a link to a site which may contain rules clarifications from a higher power, John Lewis comes to mind. While searching I found this on the internet, http://www.bcaleague.com/rule49.html . While unrelated and out of date, it made me wonder if anyone has collected responses such as this.

I really don't understand why the WPA chooses to not issue rulings on matters of confusion. I agree with the rules freeze but that should not affect the issuing of interpretations of those rules.

SPetty
11-10-2004, 11:16 AM
It seems clear to me.

A safety is a legal shot. That is, it is not a foul.

A ball pocketed during a safety is an illegally pocketed ball. That is, it does not count for choice of group.

vliam
11-10-2004, 11:17 AM
Ah, seems you're right. I just did search for the right set of words. Here's the old post.
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=53901&amp;Foru m=All_Forums&amp;Words=safety%20illegally&amp;Match=And&amp;Se archpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=53871&amp;Search =true#Post53901

vliam
11-10-2004, 12:12 PM
Ah, very good. That is the explaination that I was looking for. I just wasn't drawing a distinction between a legal shot which pockets a ball and a legally pocketed ball.

Thanks for the response.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-10-2004, 12:26 PM
There are much higher authorities that may be contacted than John Lewis.

Bob Jewett and Mike Shamos were members of the BCA Rules Committee when it existed.

Mr. Jewett is in the process of revising the current WPBA world standard rules. He also posts in this forum. You can contact him at jewett@sfbilliards.com

He (IMO) is the man about RULES.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-10-2004, 12:32 PM
I am by no means an expert, but I do think this is rather easily to understand.

When it your turn at the table, you must call the shot.
Either you call the ball and the intended pocket, or you call a 'safe', when you call a 'safe' there is NO BALL or Pocket mentioned. You just need to meet the requirements of a legal hit.

A group is only claimed when you call a ball and the intended pocket and it is pocketed leagally.

vliam
11-10-2004, 03:48 PM
I don't disagree with you about the interpretation or about the level of Bob Jewett's expertise. As I said in another post, I can think of no better individual to review the current rules for possible changes.

However, the called safety rule as worded only refers to pocketing an obvious shot. Of course, the rules also state that when attempting to shoot an obvious shot, it is unnecessary to declare the ball and pocket. The shot is assumed. Thus, the need to declare 'safe' exists. However, this can lead to a different interpretation. It can lead one to believe that you are in fact calling the ball, pocket, and declaring a safe simultaneously. This is a distortion of the actual rule which could be easily avoided if they would simplify the passages which I posted.

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment but pointing out a further area of confusion within the rules as they are currently presented.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-10-2004, 06:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote vliam:</font><hr>
However, the called safety rule as worded only refers to pocketing an obvious shot.

<font color="blue"> You don't have to pocket a ball when you call 'safe' </font color>

Of course, the rules also state that when attempting to shoot an obvious shot, it is unnecessary to declare the ball and pocket. The shot is assumed. Thus, the need to declare 'safe' exists. However, this can lead to a different interpretation.

<font color="blue"> I don't see how this could lead to a different interpretation. You can only call one or the other when it's your turn. Call the shot or call SAFE.
</font color>

It can lead one to believe that you are in fact calling the ball, pocket, and declaring a safe simultaneously.

<font color="blue"> you can't make a call as you shoot. It must be done prior to the shot</font color>

This is a distortion of the actual rule which could be easily avoided if they would simplify the passages which I posted.

<font color="blue">Simplifying the passage isn't necessary IMO, but if it would make you feel better, I am all for it. </font color>

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment but pointing out a further area of confusion within the rules as they are currently presented.

<font color="blue"> When a player plays under the WPBA World Standard rules, they must make a call when it their turn at the table. The call has to be either a ball and the pocket or a SAFE. Claiming a group when there is an open table only occurs when a ball is called and made legally. Balls made on a called SAFE are not legally made balls (as least not to qualify to be claimed for a group. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Fred Agnir
11-10-2004, 11:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote vliam:</font><hr> I'm uncertain about the situation that arises when a person performs an "in-an-safe" on an open table. Does it determine the group of balls which the player must shoot?
My thinking is that it may be used to assign a group to a player. However, there is one line that seems to contradict this.

The relevant rules for this question are as follows:


4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

4.12 "SAFETY" SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a "safety" to the opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.


4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes..

Can someone explain the purpose of this third passage which seemingly contradicts those above? <hr /></blockquote>There is no contradiction. You cannot choose a suit on an illegally pocketed ball. Plain and simple. If you call a safe on an open table, any pocketed ball is illegally pocketed, and the table remains open.

Fred

vliam
11-11-2004, 12:23 PM
Agreed with respect to everything.

Except, I really think they should remove everything about pocketing an obvious object ball. Why is that in there? If you can't call a shot AND safety at the same time, does it matter if I am shooting at an obvious object ball? What if I declare safe and three rail a ball in the corner? The wording sucks. I appologize to the person who drafted that passage but it's horrible.

This is more what I mean...

For tactical reasons, a player may choose to perform a legal shot and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring "safety" in advance. If the shooting player intends to pocket an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a "safety" to the opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again.

I also removed the last line. It is redundant and should be removed.