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silverbullet
11-12-2004, 01:50 PM
In Gayle’s very popular,’ separation of church and state thread’, this was mentioned, but it deserves its own focus .It is a huge issue already, is going to get even bigger, and if you know ‘civil right trends’, the gays will win after much litigation, constitutions and laws challenged at the state and federal level etc. It may take years, but the gays will win.

I found this link, this is enormous and no way I could copy all of it, nor post it all. It talks about laws, polls, in various states as well as what is going on with this in Canada and other countries. So here is the link:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_marr_menu.htm#menu

This was a link from the following site, which was one that came up in search relating to ‘separation of church and state’:

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/


When I first became a Christian at the age of 23, I studied the Bible voraciously.I quickly ran into the hateful things said about gays, by these so called Christians, not just verses read. Even though I was not gay, it threw me into a tailspin and my emotional reaction was violent. I thought God was about love not hate; I screamed at this 'spirit' God and told him I hated him. Other things happened to deepen my anger at brutally cruel injustices that I saw, and finally meeting gay people,I knew I was right. There were now faces and human beings behind my convictions. I do not claim to know everything, but I knew cruelty when I saw it, and this was the driving force propelling me to leave the organized Christian church.

I eventually found out there was nothing wrong with the 'god of my understanding',that even the verses I had seen were incorrect translations from the greek, but I was alone with what I believed, wanting nothing to do with 'them' nor their religion of hate. I rarely called myself Christian, because I was not of 'them', and even wondered at times what the word 'Christian' meant. I now know that there are a few Christians and a few denominations on the liberal side of that faith which are exceptions, but by the time I found them, it was too late. I had already left.

But if you are gay, now that this marriage issue has come up, support seems to be coming from the most unlikely places. I am hearing from older people, even, claiming to be conservatives, yet support all gay rights, including marriage. The opinion of many, seeming to be, ‘what does what they do have to do with me? Why shouldn’t they be allowed to be happy?' History will show that it is the haters who are the worst 'sinners',not to speak of the fact that their hate is based on lies. You will win in court, but it is my hope that you will win also in human hearts.

sb

SecaucusFats
11-12-2004, 03:04 PM
I eventually found out there was nothing wrong with the 'god of my understanding',that even the verses I had seen were incorrect translations from the greek, but I was alone with what I believed, wanting nothing to do with 'them' nor their religion of hate. I rarely called myself Christian, because I was not of 'them', and even wondered at times what the word 'Christian' meant. I now know that there are a few Christians and a few denominations on the liberal side of that faith which are exceptions, but by the time I found them, it was too late. I had already left.

But if you are gay, now that this marriage issue has come up, support seems to be coming from the most unlikely places. I am hearing from older people, even, claiming to be conservatives, yet support all gay rights, including marriage. The opinion of many, seeming to be, ‘what does what they do have to do with me? Why shouldn’t they be allowed to be happy?' History will show that it is the haters who are the worst 'sinners',not to speak of the fact that their hate is based on lies. You will win in court, but it is my hope that you will win also in human hearts.

sb

Tap, tap, tap.

SF



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eg8r
11-13-2004, 07:23 AM
I am not sure why the gays don't wisen up and drop the marriage fight and go for civil unions. I don't think there will be near the battle and the rewards are the same.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
11-13-2004, 08:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I am not sure why the gays don't wisen up and drop the marriage fight and go for civil unions. I don't think there will be near the battle and the rewards are the same.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I agree. This is something that could probably be dealt with with a simple contractual arrangement. The only sticking point though is survivor's rights to Soc. Sec. and pensions.

TomBrooklyn
11-13-2004, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> The only sticking point though is survivor's rights to Soc. Sec. and pensions. <hr /></blockquote>And Social Security may eventually become a moot point as the Government continues to rob the monies contributed by employees and employers and use them to pay for other Government spending.

Learn how the US Government steals from the fund most employees think is being fully saved for thier retirement here (http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=3650&amp;sequence=0) and here, (http://home.flash.net/~bob001/ss.htm) or Google search it for yourself.

If a private company is discoved to dipping into an employee pension fund to cover the regular operating expenses of the company, the persons responsible are charged with a Federal crime and are typically incarcerated with multiyear sentances.

However, the Federal Govenment run by Senators and Congressmen with cushy pension systems (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23577) in addition to their social security benefits, routinely authorize dipping into the citizens retirement fund to cover operating deficits from the various areas of Government completely unrelated to the purpose Social Security was set up for.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-13-2004, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>
...the fund most employees think is being fully saved for thier retirement...
<hr /></blockquote>

Actually these days I think most employees know that this is going on and the SS system is headed for a breakdown. The question is "What do we do about it?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Privatize? It seems to have worked well in Chile.

silverbullet
11-13-2004, 02:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I am not sure why the gays don't wisen up and drop the marriage fight and go for civil unions. I don't think there will be near the battle and the rewards are the same.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Those answers are in the link. In the part on different states, specifically Vermont, you will find, if you look, the differences between the benefits that gay couples get in civil unions vs marriage.

sb

TomBrooklyn
11-13-2004, 02:39 PM
For starters, how about if the Government stops taking money out of it for other purposes. It is not their money. It belongs to the people and their employers who contributed it. They are robbing, yes robbing, as in "stealing from" the people who contributed it.

If they raised taxes enough to actually cover the money they spend, the people would revolt or force them to stop spending so much. If they slowed down spending, they wouldn't be able to deliver on all the groovy promises they like to make to help them get elected.

Eventually the people would realize we don't even need half the politicians and their bloated staffs and budgets we have now. And if someone really wanted to "serve" the people, there are competant and concerned people who would do it part time or for little or no pay.

Any private corporation that was run like the Government would be out of business within a few years, if not a few months. The natural market forces would not allow the incompetence and fiscal irresponsibility to go unpunished.

The Government gets away with what they do partly by being deceptive and sneaky about where they get money from, like taking money out of social security to help make up deficits elsewhere.

Gayle in MD
11-13-2004, 02:55 PM
Excellent post Tom. I might add this administration has been the worst offender. Everyone should read Laurence Kotlikoff's book, "The Coming Generational Storm."
Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
11-14-2004, 11:38 PM
Tom, good post...I once read that the avg. retiree on S.S. gets 18 checks.....(my Mom must have upst them bean-counters apple carts ) it's pretty obvious that the $$ is going somewhere else.....
glad someone else has noticed...it's a start!!!
And SS has always been a giant pyramid scheme...what's going to happen if Bush has his way?