PDA

View Full Version : Instruction-Quadrants-Reality vs. Perception?



jpeters
11-21-2004, 07:29 PM
Still new Jim Peters here. Did some research on Billiard Instruction over the internet this weekend and WOW there is a lot of information and many who teach this game. My question is...Is there a recognized set of standards to base instruction on? Are all instructors teaching the same things just in different ways? I was interested in hearing from other instructors about Quadrants. This has to be one of the things I have done wrong for such a long time and thought I totally understood it. I have set up different shots and have used the Quadrants with almost perfect success. I understand how and why but don't really totally understand why my reasoning before was so opposite. What causes this and are there other common things in this game that are looked at this way. Reality is different from perception. Thanks!

SPetty
11-21-2004, 07:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr> Still new Jim Peters here. ... I was interested in hearing from other instructors about Quadrants. This has to be one of the things I have done wrong for such a long time and thought I totally understood it. I have set up different shots and have used the Quadrants with almost perfect success. I understand how and why but don't really totally understand why my reasoning before was so opposite. What causes this and are there other common things in this game that are looked at this way.<hr /></blockquote>Howdy Still new Jim Peters, /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What is/are Quadrants? Is it an aiming system? Is it a table management system? What did you do wrong and now what are you doing right? Did you find a link to Quadrants on the internet during your searching this weekend?

jpeters
11-21-2004, 08:04 PM
Hi SPetty,
I was searching for instruction, looking for consistency in my success and comprehension of this art. I think of this sport, game, as an ART now whereas before I thought of it as just a game. Quadrants, I could not find anywhere else and so the reason to return to you all with my questions. This is where 2 balls are touching each other. The 2 questions you need answered are the direction of the object ball and the direction of the cue ball assuming one of the touching balls is the cue ball. Your answers are obtained by the quadrants each ball fits into. The top quadrants tell you the direction of the object ball and the bottom quadrants tell you the direction of the cue ball. You then hit the cue ball in the correct quadrant with the tip ending in the correct quadrant. Tim showed this in Video #9 with a plastic directional template. It instantly became clear to me that I was approaching these situations all wrong since the beginning. What I want to know is there other situations/examples of things like this? I have played with many different people over the years and no one has ever said anything to me that I was shooting these shots wrong all that time. Thanks again..

Popcorn
11-22-2004, 06:47 AM
I don't really understand what you mean. When you say
quote
"I have played with many different people over the years and no one has ever said anything to me that I was shooting these shots wrong all that time.

What were you doing wrong, were you missing or not getting position?

pooltchr
11-22-2004, 07:30 AM
In answer to your question about standards of instruction, you can find a list of instructors certified by the Billiard Congress of America at www.bca-pool.com/play (http://www.bca-pool.com/play)
Most of these instructors are teaching the same principles although each individual instructor will have their own way of presenting it. If there is a standard of instruction, this would probably be it. It's the only instructor's organization I am aware of.
Steve

jpeters
11-22-2004, 08:48 AM
The problem I was having was not making the ball that the cue ball was touching. I was trying to hit the cue ball on a leftward angle (example) to pocket or direct the object ball to the right. I was not yet concerned with the position of the cue ball. I now understand the reaction of the balls is different (opposite) thinking from what I had been trying to do. The quadrants not only taught me about the why's of the collision but showed me in a much needed slow motion how the balls actually react. The quadrants showed me instantly how and why to play position on the cue ball just by the quadrant number I want the cue ball to go to. Very fasinating to say the least.

jpeters
11-22-2004, 08:52 AM
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the info regarding the BCA. I did check out the site. Lots of good information. Is this organization the same as BSACA? The organization Tim is affiliated with on the back of his DVD's say's BSACA. If not what is the difference?

Thanks again

Popcorn
11-22-2004, 09:18 AM
I'll take your word for it, I still didn't really understand what you are saying. You do learn by just observing what the balls do as you play, but it is certainly better if you understand what is happening as well as why.

wolfdancer
11-22-2004, 10:39 AM
Run, don't walk, to the nearest bar, order your favorite libation, to clear your head....after three or more it'll all make sense to you.
Seriously I haven't read Tim's teaching on quadrants....but there was an excellent instructor in the Bay Area, Ed Nagle, sadly he passed on. Ed taught something along those lines, unfortunately I never got the chance to take a lesson. Since you can only hit one of two quadrants on the O.B, assuming that you are not Patrick....that solves part of the equation. The cueball is usually only struck in one of two quadrants also, unless you are using a specialty stroke like a Masse or Piquet...so how is reality different from your perception?

Fred Agnir
11-22-2004, 01:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr> Hi Steve,
Thanks for the info regarding the BCA. I did check out the site. Lots of good information. Is this organization the same as BSACA? The organization Tim is affiliated with on the back of his DVD's say's BSACA. If not what is the difference?

Thanks again <hr /></blockquote>As Steve said, the BCA stands for "Billiard Congress of America." The BCA has been the recognized trade organization for pool and billiards in the U.S. since 1948. They were an offshoot of the BBIA, the Bowling and Billiards Institute of America, IIRC.

As you said, BSACA stands for Tim White's "Billiard Sanctuary Acadamy of Cue Arts" or some such thing. This is simply the name of Tim's business.

Fred

jpeters
11-22-2004, 01:39 PM
My perception of the game and the direct link to what you think will happen isn't. At least it wasn't for me for a long time. I just read the review article that was in Billiard Digest written by Kyle Chiner in October 2002 "Timothy White concludes his series with a flurry of lessons" In there he talks about the same thing, I was doing. Working with frozen balls. "No Matter if the object ball is frozen to another object ball or to the cue ball, I learned that I had been approaching these shots all wrong for the better part of 20 years." This was in regards to Volume 5 where Tim shows and explains in real and slow motion the effects of the balls in action together. In Volume 9 Tim goes much deeper in explaining a very simple yet scientific way of easy calulating what quadrant the object ball needs to go toward and what quadrant the cue ball needs to go towards. I was shooting this into the 2 quadrant when I needed to shoot into the 1 (example of opposite thinking)Mr Chiner was evidentally doing the same thing. My question is: Are there other things like this that any normal person would think like this when the true reality is to think opposite?

Stretch
11-22-2004, 01:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Run, don't walk, to the nearest bar, order your favorite libation, to clear your head....after three or more it'll all make sense to you.
Seriously I haven't read Tim's teaching on quadrants....but there was an excellent instructor in the Bay Area, Ed Nagle, sadly he passed on. Ed taught something along those lines, unfortunately I never got the chance to take a lesson. Since you can only hit one of two quadrants on the O.B, assuming that you are not Patrick....that solves part of the equation. The cueball is usually only struck in one of two quadrants also, unless you are using a specialty stroke like a Masse or Piquet...so how is reality different from your perception? <hr /></blockquote>

I don't have the foggiest idea what he's talking about as far as quadrents. The only thing i can think of when the cb is frozen to the ob and they are lined up to just miss a pocket you can aim the opposite way from what you'd think to "push" it down. Or perhaps it's a "system" for determining the direction of both cue ball and object ball for shots of different angles where you're shooting into the ob.(without fouling it of course). Who knows.....all i know is that if your cue ball is froze to an obfect ball.....that's not a good thing. lol St.

Fred Agnir
11-22-2004, 02:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr>
I was shooting this into the 2 quadrant when I needed to shoot into the 1 (example of opposite thinking)Mr Chiner was evidentally doing the same thing. My question is: Are there other things like this that any normal person would think like this when the true reality is to think opposite? <hr /></blockquote>Yes. And just when you learn something that might contradict your intuition that really opens your eyes in this game, there's something else that contradicts the contradiction right around the corner.

For example, people who learn about spin throw may think that it is a giant piece of the puzzle. But squirt (which, IMO, is a much bigger piece of the puzzle) "acts" in the opposite direction of throw. This idea escapes a lot of shooters.

The idea of breaking with a lighter stick rather than a heavier stick is another example.

Fred

Fred Agnir
11-22-2004, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr> The problem I was having was not making the ball that the cue ball was touching. I was trying to hit the cue ball on a leftward angle (example) to pocket or direct the object ball to the right.
<hr /></blockquote>For those that don't understand what Still New Jim Peters is talking about, it's frozen throw.

Fred

Eric.
11-22-2004, 03:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr> Hi Steve,
Thanks for the info regarding the BCA. I did check out the site. Lots of good information. Is this organization the same as BSACA? The organization Tim is affiliated with on the back of his DVD's say's BSACA. If not what is the difference?

Thanks again <hr /></blockquote>As Steve said, the BCA stands for "Billiard Congress of America." The BCA has been the recognized trade organization for pool and billiards in the U.S. since 1948. They were an offshoot of the BBIA, the Bowling and Billiards Institute of America, IIRC.

As you said, BSACA stands for Tim White's "Billiard Sanctuary Acadamy of Cue Arts" or some such thing. This is simply the name of Tim's business.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I'm guessing everyone is feeling that jpeters is a smokescreen shill for Tim and his Pool instruction. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Eric

Bob_Jewett
11-22-2004, 05:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> For those that don't understand what Still New Jim Peters is talking about, it's frozen throw.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>
Well, if that's so....

I don't know why someone feels the need to introduce some very strange concept of "quadrants" when the details of frozen throw have been explained very much more simply in print for a very long time. I suspect that when "Still New Jim Peters" finally looks into contact induced throw, and throw reduction by orthogonal spin, he will be amazed by some of the details. He could start with Byrne and Capelle and move on to Shepard.

wolfdancer
11-22-2004, 05:58 PM
Stretch I didn't realise he was discussing frozen balls...hey speaking of that, it's damn cold trying to play pool in my garage, in the late Autumn. Even the pool balls are cold to the touch....

wolfdancer
11-22-2004, 06:04 PM
Hey, JP...sorry...I didn't realise the topic was frozen balls.....there was a "method" that if you divided the table into quadrants, and the cueball into quadrants....hitting the CB....well, i never could get it to work.
I see Bob Jewett has replied...and I'm sure he'll have an answer to your question.....from the horse's mouth, so to speak...as opposed to my last part to clear the fence ...

wolfdancer
11-22-2004, 06:15 PM
did you know there were 2,670,000 sites for orthogonal? Do you realise how long it's gonna take me to figger out whatchu was sayin. Maybe Carla fiorina has that kinda time.....

pooltchr
11-22-2004, 06:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jpeters:</font><hr> Hi Steve,
Thanks for the info regarding the BCA. I did check out the site. Lots of good information. Is this organization the same as BSACA? The organization Tim is affiliated with on the back of his DVD's say's BSACA. If not what is the difference?

Thanks again <hr /></blockquote>

There is a long story that I won't go into here, only to say that Tim was in the BCA program at one time, then started his own BSACA company. When I wanted to get involved in the instructor program I did look at both. I decided the BCA was the best way to go for me. The BCA instructors program allows instructors to advance only when student feedback, time spent teaching, and working with a Master instructor all indicate that advancement is appropriate for an instructor.

pooltchr
11-22-2004, 06:34 PM
[quote=Eric

I'm guessing everyone is feeling that jpeters is a smokescreen shill for Tim and his Pool instruction. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Surely not!!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Stretch
11-22-2004, 07:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Stretch I didn't realise he was discussing frozen balls...hey speaking of that, it's damn cold trying to play pool in my garage, in the late Autumn. Even the pool balls are cold to the touch.... <hr /></blockquote>

Yep, it's getting pretty nasty up this way. I don't think a garage table would cut it around here. Less you had a wood stove in the corner and a pillow to sit on. But you'll be happy to know i just booked off the first two weeks of Jan. so me and my better half can drive her parents down to florida where they winter, stay for two weeks, and fly home. Here we go again! St.

Angel_R
11-22-2004, 09:38 PM
Wow I thought I was losing my mind trying to figure quadrants out. If it is frozen balls, I really enjoyed Byrnes explanation of what CB frozen OB will do. Although I also take the philosphy of never to over think a particular problem. Often the simple solution is there and common sense should take over. I have never taken much time to learn the MANY different methods others use to learn pool. I find practice and feel is the best for me.

If I try to learn all these other methods, then to me the fun has a tendency to go away. Don't get me wrong, I want to go to the next level, but I want to learn it through experience, practice and and getting beat by much better players than me. I don't want to try and learn X+Y=Z. To me once you learn the basics and know how balls react, this game becomes a game of instincts and skill. Besides IMO all the instructors are teaching a little of the same thing, just taking a different road to get there. I just like the scenic route! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
11-23-2004, 06:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
I'm guessing everyone is feeling that jpeters is a smokescreen shill for Tim and his Pool instruction. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

If he is I certainly hope he does a better job of it in the future. All this "quadrant" talk is straining my feeble mind /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Eric.
11-23-2004, 07:50 AM
Steve &amp; Wal,


Either it's Tim using a fake name or he's got a serious stalker.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Eric

Stretch
11-23-2004, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Angel_R:</font><hr> Wow I thought I was losing my mind trying to figure quadrants out. If it is frozen balls, I really enjoyed Byrnes explanation of what CB frozen OB will do. Although I also take the philosphy of never to over think a particular problem. Often the simple solution is there and common sense should take over. I have never taken much time to learn the MANY different methods others use to learn pool. I find practice and feel is the best for me.

If I try to learn all these other methods, then to me the fun has a tendency to go away. Don't get me wrong, I want to go to the next level, but I want to learn it through experience, practice and and getting beat by much better players than me. I don't want to try and learn X+Y=Z. To me once you learn the basics and know how balls react, this game becomes a game of instincts and skill. Besides IMO all the instructors are teaching a little of the same thing, just taking a different road to get there. I just like the scenic route! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I laughed when you said about loseing your mind over quadrants. I do the same thing when i'm looking at a frozen ball combonation that's not quite wired. My little voices sound like this " now if i put left spin on the cue ball, that will impart right spin on the first ball which will put left spin on the frozen second ball whereby it will push it into the corner pocket" meanwhile going with my hands twisting like there turning faucets as my mind tries to grasp the chain reaction. Suddenly "AARRRG!!!" hit it with right english and jar it. St~~plays better cedated~~

Patrick
11-30-2004, 06:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Run, don't walk, to the nearest bar, order your favorite libation, to clear your head....after three or more it'll all make sense to you.
Seriously I haven't read Tim's teaching on quadrants....but there was an excellent instructor in the Bay Area, Ed Nagle, sadly he passed on. Ed taught something along those lines, unfortunately I never got the chance to take a lesson. Since you can only hit one of two quadrants on the O.B, assuming that you are not Patrick....that solves part of the equation. The cueball is usually only struck in one of two quadrants also, unless you are using a specialty stroke like a Masse or Piquet...so how is reality different from your perception? <hr /></blockquote>

I don't have the foggiest idea what he's talking about as far as quadrents. The only thing i can think of when the cb is frozen to the ob and they are lined up to just miss a pocket you can aim the opposite way from what you'd think to "push" it down. Or perhaps it's a "system" for determining the direction of both cue ball and object ball for shots of different angles where you're shooting into the ob.(without fouling it of course). Who knows.....all i know is that if your cue ball is froze to an obfect ball.....that's not a good thing. lol St. <hr /></blockquote>
This depends on 2 reasons.

1. You will always get throw when the cueball contacts the object ball. The more angle, the more outside spin is needed to eliminate the sideways throw.

2. This happens only when the cueball and object ball are frozen, the follow through of the cue makes the cueball get trapped between the cuetip and object ball, so you keep contacting the cueball for a longer time and the object ball gets pushed more in the direction of the tip.

Try using inside spin on the cueball, the cueball will escape easier and you get less pushing. But you will get more throw from the inside spin. The harder you shoot, the less throw you will get. So if the cueball and object ball are facing straight towards the pocket, you can shoot hard with inside spin in both directions to make the shot, this is very useful for position play. This is easier than using outside spin because with outside spin the tip would trap the cueball and push the object ball forwards.

More outside spin = More pushing