PDA

View Full Version : DiLiberto's book (CD)



Popcorn
11-28-2004, 11:11 AM
I just finished reading the Diliberto book on CD last night. I wasn't going to write anything but I can't help but ask what others thought about what they read? I was surprised he is a much more treacherous guy then I thought he was. The character he creates in the book is little more then a depraved untrustworthy degenerate gambler, a complete unsympathetic loser. There is not a positive character in the book. I would hope no parent of a young person who has shown an interest in pool reads this. If they do, that will be the end of junior ever going to a pool room again and the home table will be up for sale. For me, reading it was almost disturbing, I didn't feel good after reading it at all. I haven't read any of the other books out there such as Gradys book and there are a few more, maybe they are all the same I don't know. I do know one thing, my experience with hustlers was always the same. They think the world is full of suckers and they are somehow beating the system. The fact is, they are the suckers with their life savings in their pockets sleeping in their cars. You know the worst part of it, they rationalize it, like the fable of the frog and the scorpion. Borrow, cheat, lie and steal from friends and strangers like it is some given right. They are no one to be admired, just people who never grew up and live their lives at someone else's expense. I wouldn't recommend this book. I told Q in another thread it may not be his cup of tea, little did I know it wouldn't be mine either. That's not to say, some people might not find it all cool. Just my opinion

Qtec
11-28-2004, 06:52 PM
Popcorn, all I was saying is that there is a difference between tournament pool and playing pool for money.
Some of the most heaviest games[ for money ] I have seen on a snooker table was between guys who couldnt string 3 balls together. It was purely a gamble. The bet just happened to take place on a snooker/pool table. It had nothing to do with the game!

A gamble is when you have a chance to win. A hustle is when you have no chance to win.

Its basicaly a con.

Q [ not to say the book isnt a good read]



hey its JMO...............after all............

DickLeonard
11-28-2004, 07:43 PM
Popcorn did he mention me in his book. I played him in a tourney in Syracuse NY.

He was pracing around like he was a Pool God. He had me 52 to 4 when he made a mistake and I ran 96 and out on him. We only played 100 point games there. I smiled to myself for weeks.####

JDB
11-28-2004, 08:22 PM
I enjoy your honest opinions and posts, Popcorn. Although you are admittedly friends with D. DiLiberto, you gave an honest opinion of his book. Most people wouldn't, unless it was "raving."

I think that is an admirable trait. I haven't read the book, but most likely will. Although it may be sad from a real life perspective, it will probably be an enoyable read.

Popcorn
11-28-2004, 09:57 PM
No, I don't think he mentioned your name, but he did mention people by name who I think he should not have. I also was one of those suckers who was always there with a few bucks when someone needed it and knew I was being a sucker but didn't really care. It is nice now to know that is all you really are to people like that. I think like a lot of things you have a tendency to remember only the good times and forget the bad. Being dumped, unpaid loans, borrowed sticks, and money you never got back, pick up hotel bills they ran out on, yes, just a sucker. Those people aren't your friends, they are not anybody's friends, they are just useless parasites. I said before they were best viewed from a distance, a long distance.

Chopstick
11-29-2004, 07:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>

You know the worst part of it, they rationalize it, like the fable of the frog and the scorpion. Borrow, cheat, lie and steal from friends and strangers like it is some given right. They are no one to be admired, just people who never grew up and live their lives at someone else's expense.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes Popcorn, that is exactly how they are, and worse. When I was a young man, starting out in the game I wanted to be a road player. I tried that life style for a while. It was not for me. Eventually I quit the game altogether. I started back because I always promised myself I would play in pro tournaments. I did that this year. The tour down here you rack your own. Cheating was wide spread. Buddy Hall got flaming mad on the next table because of a certain un-named top ranked player who was rigging his racks to make a ball every time.

I mentioned this to Grady Matthews and he said "Oh yea, he cheats as many ways as he can as often as he can." This is how a former U.S. Open Champion conducts himself? When our champions have no honor, what does that mean for the game as a whole? Golfers disqualify themselves from major tournaments for inadvertently breaking a rule. Pool players break the rules openly and hope they don't get caught. IMO this is the fundamental reason that golf is successful and pool is not. The general publics perception is that pool players are not good people and knowing them I cannot disagree. It is up to us amateurs to change the game. The pros are not going to do it.

Pelican
11-29-2004, 02:22 PM
A lot of people go through life with the attitude - 'it's not cheating if I don't get caught'.

cycopath
11-30-2004, 04:07 PM
I throughly enjoyed reading it. I thought the book was very well written. Although I was kind of taken aback by Danny's honesty as far as his affairs and what not. It also ended kind of abruptly, which surprised me.

I'm looking forward to reading it again, when released in actual book form.

Praise should go to Danny and Jerry for donating most of the money off the sales of the disc to Leonard. Hats off to both gentlemen.

Bob C
11-30-2004, 05:20 PM
Quote Chopstick, "Pool players break the rules openly and hope they don't get caught. IMO this is the fundamental reason that golf is successful and pool is not."

Professional sports are rife with cheating and attempted cheating. Football has so much of it that they have a defined set of penalties for various offenses. Baseball players claim they caught balls when they know they trapped them or claim they weren't tagged when they know they were. Basketball, hockey, boxing the list goes on and on. The sad part is that young kids are encouraged to do this from an early age by youth sports coaches and it continues through high school and college. It is little wonder that it carries over to professional sports, pool included.

SpiderMan
12-01-2004, 06:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> The character he creates in the book is little more then a depraved untrustworthy degenerate gambler, a complete unsympathetic loser. There is not a positive character in the book. I would hope no parent of a young person who has shown an interest in pool reads this. If they do, that will be the end of junior ever going to a pool room again and the home table will be up for sale. For me, reading it was almost disturbing, I didn't feel good after reading it at all. <hr /></blockquote>

Sounds a lot like Robert Byrne's interview/book on Danny McGoorty. Although the main character was a scam artist and a bum, that book also was a very interesting read. I felt that it entertained without influencing anyone to follow a crooked path; if I had kids, and if they were old enough to deal with the adult situations, I'd probably let them read it. Unsavory characters, bums, dropouts, and addicts, of the same variety you can find in pool rooms, are also in the back parking lot of my corner grocery store. They're toting skateboards rather than cue cases, but it doesn't change who or what they are.

While you obviously didn't like the characters as portrayed, you didn't mention whether you thought the book was entertaining and well-written. How did it fare on those counts? It's a chore to read a poorly-edited book that rambles and loses the story. Unfortunately, Grady's book was like that, ie a great beginning but halfway through began rambling and losing the audience.

If this one's in the "McGoorty" class, I'd probably feel that it stands on it's own for entertainment value and wouldn't worry that it doesn't teach any redeeming moral lessons. It's unfortunate that Grady's book didn't get the once-over from a good editor and go back for a few rewrites, it could have been great considering the material he must have to pull from.

SpiderMan

JimS
12-01-2004, 06:52 AM
I wonder if it will make it into book form and if I'm screwing up not buying it now.

SPetty
12-01-2004, 08:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> I wonder if it will make it into book form and if I'm screwing up not buying it now. <hr /></blockquote>Don't worry, JimS, I'm sure there's a depraved untrustworthy degenerate pool player somewhere that would pirate a copy of the CD for you... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Chopstick
12-01-2004, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>
depraved untrustworthy degenerate pool player<hr /></blockquote>

I guess that's why them chickens went up the trees when we got there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Popcorn
12-01-2004, 08:29 AM
The writing is not bad. It does jump around a little. It is mostly then the kind of BS stories you hear him telling around the pool room, told in the words of the writer not his, he is not nearly that well spoken. It is not really a biography although he does say things about himself that are surprising. I found it more disturbing then entertaining, and you will look at him a little differently after reading the book. Objectively, the book is no "McGoorty". I read "McGoorty" while flying on a plane and was laughing out loud, people around me were asking what I was reading, they wanted to read it. You won't laugh while reading his book.

RailbirdJAM
12-01-2004, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> I throughly enjoyed reading it. I thought the book was very well written. Although I was kind of taken aback by Danny's honesty as far as his affairs and what not. It also ended kind of abruptly, which surprised me.

I'm looking forward to reading it again, when released in actual book form.

Praise should go to Danny and Jerry for donating most of the money off the sales of the disc to Leonard. Hats off to both gentlemen. <hr /></blockquote>

I thought it was a very kind gesture on their part for donating the funds from the sales of the CD to Leonard in his time of need. It's kind of refreshing to see human nature at its best.

I thoroughly loved the CD. I could hear Danny talking as I read the words. His memory is remarkably intact, and some of the names that popped up refreshed mine. Knowing about some of the players he mentioned, I got a kick out of some of the events he relayed.

I thought it was a fine representation of years gone by. Sadly, there is no pool archives or very little in the way of data relating to pocket billiards in general.

The transition that has taken place in pool as depicted in movies like "The Hustler" and others as the way it was to today's tournament-inclined world is real. Though many of the, for lack of a better word, "occupational hazards" do cause a stir, there are other aspects of the sport in general that make these kinds of books historically significant and kind of fun at the same time. Without these data, right from the horse's mouth, there is little to none available.

I would recommend it to any pool enthusiast, player, or fan! It's the real deal! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RailbirdJAM

SpiderMan
12-01-2004, 03:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> The writing is not bad. It does jump around a little. It is mostly then the kind of BS stories you hear him telling around the pool room, told in the words of the writer not his, he is not nearly that well spoken. It is not really a biography although he does say things about himself that are surprising. I found it more disturbing then entertaining, and you will look at him a little differently after reading the book. Objectively, the book is no "McGoorty". I read "McGoorty" while flying on a plane and was laughing out loud, people around me were asking what I was reading, they wanted to read it. You won't laugh while reading his book. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks - if and when a print version becomes available, I'll probably add it to my book collection. Meanwhile, SPetty, how depraved are you?

SpiderMan

Popcorn
12-01-2004, 04:09 PM
I get your last line, Someone has already printed out a copy and left it at the pool room where I go. (not me by the way, I think the owner did it). They didn't pick a very good way of doing it with the CD thing. I don't think there is any way to prevent someone from buying one copy and then emailing it to all their friends.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-01-2004, 06:35 PM
Popcorn,
I bought the CD the first day it was offered, got it last week and haven't even taking it out of the case.

I'm somewhat in agreement with you about the whole 'image' thing that Danny (according to your review) has given pool.

I read Byrnes' McGorty and was constantly saddend by the pool hobo life. Not a good portrait of a pool player or the pool scene in general.

If Danny's CD is even close to the 'dark side of pool' that you have claimed in your review, then I am guess I am in for a dissapointment.

But, I will read it and will add my thoughts to this thread in due time.

Irish
12-02-2004, 02:27 AM
I cannot believe all of you. What would you rather have, a true albeit depressing and sad account of the past of pool? Or a false account of pool where everyone wore suits, called each other chaps, and acted like complete squares. Pool is what it is, you cannot change the past. If you want to read a fiction about pool then DONT read someone's biography from the past. Anyone talking about pool in the early years is going to be painting a pretty bleak and harsh picture of life, get over it, that is how it was.

I suppose all you people who hate this book because of the bleak images and dark atmosphere also hate "The Hustler" due to the main character being a drunk who hooks up with another drunk who is mentally fragile and ends up along with a friend driving her to suicide. All the while he hustles pool, gets his thumbs broken and threatens to kill someone.

I found the 13th chapter that was put up for free as a sample to be dark, bleak and tragically sad. But it was REAL, thats life. So many pool players who have a huge skill are lead down a path in life of small cons and dangerous situations only to end up in life old, broke, and looking back at those early years of hustles, gambles, fast women, cheap booze, and fights as their "glory days". Thank god people are willing to show our sport how it is, and where it really came from. I find the dark past of this sport and the path it has led many of it's top performers down to be tragic and dramatic and amazingly adaptable to great storytelling. Why should it make you laugh? There are I am sure some funny moments in the book as there are in the real life pool scene, but there are also some dark moments. And talking of McGoorty, yeah there were some funny moments but there were also the moments when the world best straight pool player snuck to the can so he could drop back a pint of whisky to ease his nerves, or the numerous scenes of pinning YOUNG chicks and popping their cherry. Lets face it, the game is dark, it came from a dark past, and in no way when writing a history of the game should you try to hide that or make the past a fiction where everything is golly gee swell. Take your "Leave it too Beaver" pool history you seem to want and forget it, it does not exist and never did.

NH_Steve
12-02-2004, 06:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote popcorn:</font><hr>I was surprised he is a much more treacherous guy then I thought he was. The character he creates in the book is little more then a depraved untrustworthy degenerate gambler, a complete unsympathetic loser. <hr /></blockquote>
I first really got to know Danny when interviewed him for OnePocket.org a few months ago, and for that I also researched all the previous articles and interviews I could about him as well as talking to other people who know him well, and I don't think that's a fair characterization at all. As a road player did he sneak up on people? Yes, that is part of how road players make a living. However, keep in mind that by and large, 'pool hustlers' at that level are sneaking up on other 'pool hustlers' -- not some innocent working folk. And if you've been around the pool world for any period of time Popcorn, you know there are a full range of personalities among players, from nice guys with genuine ethics to really bad guys -- just like the real world, BTW.

And no question IMO Danny falls in with the nicer guys with genuine ethics. A saint? No, but I recall reading somewhere something about 'he who is without sin, cast the first stone' -- I'm afraid I'm not without sin either...

In one of the older articles (which I actually quoted in the interview), Danny laments that it is not possible to make a real living at professional pool, hence the choices are to make it a hobby; to give it up; or to suppliment income by gambling. Danny himself said he loved the game to much to back away from it. That same choice has faced hundreds of players for at least the last hundred years, it is nothing new. The interview is still up if you are interested:
Danny DiLiberto Interview (http://onepocket.org/DannyDilibertoInterview.htm)

Pocorn -- or anyone else for that matter -- please name all those great pool players in the BCA Hall of Fame that never gambled at pool. Careful now, even Mosconi once said something like to perform well at the tournament level, it helps if you hardened your nerve by fading bets on your game when you were younger...

BTW, Popcorn,
Are you the 'Popcorn' that was a bit of an action player back in the older days that I might have heard of? Or is that just a coincidence?

Popcorn
12-02-2004, 06:42 AM
I said, I didn't like, not that you wouldn't like it. I said quote" It was not my cup of tea" "That's not to say, some people might not find it all cool."
I just got the impression that it was presented like you were suppose to think he was cool, as he explains how to short change someone in a store, (of course he says he didn't do it, but he profits from it, somewhat like a pimp), same with the drug dealing, or laughs at how the local hotel got stiffed for their tabs by the pool players. Pool again is the subject of guilt be association. Unfortunately this is contemporary history when it comes to pool, not a century ago. He even make references to people hanging in the pool rooms who have killed numerous people like that is the norm. Maybe you are right and a copy should be distributed to every city and county commissioner who votes on licenses and variances for pool rooms. There is good reason why you can't even open a room in many cities without jumping through a million hoops. This book just drags the sport through the mud yet another time. In answer to your first question, nothing. I have made my point and I think this will be my last word on the subject.

Popcorn
12-02-2004, 06:58 AM
He left out one alternative, get a job. Again, the world owes me a living thing, I want to bum around playing pool and I can't, No wait, I have an idea, I can borrow and steal money from you! Give me a break. I have no problem with gambling among players. No, I am not John Miller. I said in my other post that would be my last word on the subject but felt compelled to answer since you addressed me. I should add, I read your article and it is very good.

JimS
12-02-2004, 07:10 AM
Thanks for the link to onepocket.org. I'd not heard of that site.

SpiderMan
12-02-2004, 07:28 AM
I imagine it was done that way because it was easy to publish on the cheap, ie CDs only cost about 12 cents apiece nowadays and getting a book printed is much more. You are going out on a limb if you don't know how many you will sell, because the price breaks for quantity are pretty steep.

But a CD is no substitute for a book IMO, and that's what I buy for my shelves. I may read it sooner if I get ahold of a copy, but it's the print version that I want to buy.

SpiderMan

Popcorn
12-02-2004, 07:38 AM
Isn't there some code or something that can be added to prevent someone from copying it?

NH_Steve
12-02-2004, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> He left out one alternative, get a job. Again, the world owes me a living thing, I want to bum around playing pool and I can't, No wait, I have an idea, I can borrow and steal money from you! Give me a break. I have no problem with gambling among players. No, I am not John Miller. I said in my other post that would be my last word on the subject but felt compelled to answer since you addressed me. I should add, I read your article and it is very good. <hr /></blockquote>Getting a job turns pool into a hobby -- that was my own personal choice, but any real talent at pool would never reach their peak potential if they put a priority on a job -- just as any other athlete could never compete at the top international level without making their chosen sport their #1 priority -- that's why they call them 'professional athletes', and also why there is a lot of sponsorship money for many olymic athletes, so they can focus on training.

Danny's lament (and many, many other pool player's would agree of course) is that opportunity does not really exist for pool, hence the scratching around for a living gambling, because it is the only way they can work full time on their chosen sport and support themselves at the same time.

And that, my friend, is a damn shame /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

SpiderMan
12-02-2004, 08:44 AM
That I don't know, as I'm not much of a computer nerd. My impression is that it is a pretty insecure medium.

Even without considering morality, few would bother copying a book that could be bought instead. It would be a lot of work, and the result would be inferior to the original.

With digital media like CDs and DVDs, faithful copies are possible generation after generation. There are schemes out there to discourage copying, but most likely if your computer can read it for purposes of displaying it to you, it can be saved for future reproduction. I'd actually be uncomfortable spending hard-earned money on any CD that couldn't be copied. They do go bad and lose data, and you'd better have a backup.

I back up all my commercial karaoke cds, and never take the originals out of the house. When you hand them over to the DJ in a club, they may come back scratched or even cracked. If it's a 12-cent backup, I'm not out much.

SpiderMan

Perk
12-02-2004, 09:10 AM
I want the print version also, since I wont read that much on this screen at a time. I made mention of this on AZ inquiring about a possible book date, and got a cold response that it was for the benefit dollar only at this time, so 20.00 I should just give. Well, I didnt.

RailbirdJAM
12-02-2004, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Perk:</font><hr> I want the print version also since I won't read that much on this screen at a time. I made mention of this on AzB inquiring about a possible book date, and got a cold response that it was for the benefit dollar only at this time, so $20, I should just give. Well, I didn't. <hr /></blockquote>

Perk, from what I understand, and I may be wrong, it is going to be published next year at some time. They released it early in CD format to raise monies for Leonard in his time of need. A class act (IMO)!

Getting a book published takes a while, if you are going to do it right. I think you will enjoy the book when it is comes out. Personally, I found it fascinating and give it a "thumbs up."

I got the CD, but I am definitely going to purchase the book when it is released and will get it autographed as soon as I run into Danny on the tournament trail! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RailbirdJAM

Tom_In_Cincy
12-02-2004, 01:15 PM
Irish

The 'dark side of pool' accounts for only a small portion of what the game is all about. But, at the same time, it is what the general non-pool playing public uses as the perception of ALL Pool Players.

I do not like to be clumped into the same image as you seem to think is 'common'.

It is not common, this is a fact that you seem to overlook in your comments. There are over a half million weekly league and tournament pool players. Your 'dark side' accounts for a very, very small percentage. You and your 'dark side' fellowship members are maintaining the reputation that a lot of us are working to remove from pools image.

Great for history, bad for the future.

DavidMorris
12-02-2004, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Isn't there some code or something that can be added to prevent someone from copying it? <hr /></blockquote>
I'm assuming this book is published in PDF format? If so, then yes it can be encrypted and set to disable printing. However there are PDF hacks available specifically for breaking that sort of protection.

As far as copying the CD itself, that is difficult to stop. There ARE some technologies out there that make it impossible to make a 1:1 copy (i.e. a perfect copy) but they require special expensive CD media and a custom program -- in this case, a special reader that would only display the text of the book if the original CD was detected. I highly doubt they spent that much time, money, and effort on this book given the price and size of market.

Like Spiderman said, I believe in an individual's right to make personal backups for Fair Use purposes, and thus oppose such stringent copy protection methods anyway, and tend not to spend my money on such things. And I'm a software developer who's written a LOT of software in my time -- just so you know that not every software guy is a fan of arcane copy protection. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

jjinfla
12-03-2004, 06:34 AM
Popcorn,

While reading the book I enjoyed it and found it funny and illuminating. A true story of the life of a hustler. Well, as true a story as one wants to believe. We don't really know how much is fact. How much is exageration. And how much is just plain made up to spice up the book.
And remember that no character in the book has any connection to anyone alive or dead.

After I was finished reading it I had a depressed feeling that there are so many people out there in the pool world just like that taking advantage of the unfortunate.

But that is life; and not as bad as a car salesman. LOL

How about the last chapter where Danny tells how he was living in Miami and had a friend, another pool player, who lived in the North East. Greg Hatch. Greg would visit Danny throughout the year and Danny would visit Greg and all while the FBI was monitoring Danny's phone and watching him. But only Greg got arrested for dealing in drugs. Danny claimed to know nothing about it. Seems to me Danny dodged a bullet. But the FBI has a long memory.

And the book is copywrited so anyone copying it and distributing it without permission from Jerry and Danny is committing a crime.

Jake

Popcorn
12-03-2004, 10:19 AM
That is a pretty poor rationalization, everybody has things in their lives they would like to do, but they don't lie borrow cheat and steal to finance their selfish wants, some do, they are called criminals. The one line in the book says it all. I forget who it was that said it but when asked about getting a job, he said something to the effect of "Why would I work at that job, I can borrow more then that a week". That pretty sums it up. Don't embarrass yourself defending their behavior. Admire their talents, but make no excuses for their character. They are what they are nothing more nothing less.

jjinfla
12-03-2004, 01:22 PM
Popcorn,

I suggest you put the CD back in your computer and open the folder that says "Legals".

I believe that the word "entertainment" is used. And keep in mind that stories keep get better over the years. And the better they get the more they are repeated and the ore they are believed.

Hey man, this is the straight skinny.

Wonderone made a career out of telling stories and exaggerating them.

Tevis spent his life trying to convince the world that the Minnesota fats character was not based on Wonderone.

So why did everyone believe Wonderone while no one believed Walter Tevis?

Perhaps there is a need to fall back into a world of fantasy.

Jake

stroker6626
12-04-2004, 11:33 AM
I ordered mine two weeks ago and still haven't heard anything yet, how long does it take to receive cd?

Popcorn
12-04-2004, 11:43 AM
I got mine in just a few days, you need to check on it if it has been two weks.