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Fred Agnir
12-01-2004, 05:17 PM
I apologize to two people specifically who take umbrage with this thread, but I'm going to ask my question anyway.

Dr. Dave, I see your frozen throw shot demo, and have expounded on this very forum on the bogus nature of the demonstration by yours and others, including the much heralded (and much admired by yours truly) Bob Byrne. In Byrne's video, he admits to having to chalk the contact area to get the throw necessary, similar to the amount of frozen throw you show on your videoa. On my posts, I have overly stated that most player over estimate and have no idea how much throw there is on shots. This is an important sharing point, in my view. Please don't point me to an anaysis.

Your demo seems to show an amount of throw pretty much non-existent in the real world. It is my contention that this amount of throw isn't real and that you've doctored your shot. If my contention is true, then, IMO, you've done a disservice.

What say you? Are you willing to meet me at DCC or Valley Forge and show me that same exact shot and we (you and I) will fully disclose the result on this forum????

You realize that every video in your arsenal, IMO, is in question because of this blatant issue. That includes the "jump shot" that you say you need the extra piece of cloth to "protect the table." The rest of us know that the extra cloth helps the jump shot in a "trampoline" effect.

Fred

Ready to lose a challenge.

randyg
12-01-2004, 05:27 PM
Fred's my hero. I'll stick with Fred on this one. I reviewed most all of Dr. Dave's videos and found flaws (errors) in them....randyg

silverbullet
12-01-2004, 09:11 PM
I also have a question for Dr Dave. I noticed a book and one of the topics as aiming methods. What aiming methods are you talking about? Other than the many threads on this subject that have been posted on this forum,the only person I have heard talking about 'aiming systems' is Hal Houle. So what 'aiming systems' are YOU talking about? What is different about yours?

Laura

cueball1950
12-01-2004, 11:02 PM
What have i missed...who is dr dave... where is this thread that fred is talking about. i would like to read it as i am a 3 cushion player and use spin on the ball quite frequently....mike

wolfdancer
12-02-2004, 02:33 AM
" Fred's my hero. I'll stick with Fred on this one "

Here's a vote for Dr. Dave. I appreciate anybody that tries to share some of their expertise. If there's a flaw in their presentation, it'll show up when I test it out .....according to Fred...one error, and everything is "suspect"???
"It ain't necessarily so...."
I hope that Dr. Dave won't be added to the list of folks run off of here...just for trying to help out us "avg players"
So far, in several years here, reading thousands of posts...I've learned which side of the tip to glue, and which side to chalk up...what's in the middle seems open to debate, as is the color chalk, and brand to use....the curve should equal that of a nickle, dime, or my St Christopher medal ( got it at the Vatican Basement sale, after the Pope declared him an urban legend ).. most people favor wood for the shaft and butt, but can't agree how best to screw them together...and let's see...I thought we all agreed on rubber baby buggy bumpers, for the bottom of the cue...but now someone has added a vibration damper, so that we don't come down with Kienbock's Disease
then there's the controversy over the grip...continental, eastern, semi-western?????
....that about sums it up...the extent of the knowledge I've acqired here....So give the good Doc a chance...an maybe, jes maybe, i'll lern sumthin an...I'll be able to run 3 balls

Jimmy B
12-02-2004, 02:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I apologize to two people specifically who take umbrage with this thread, but I'm going to ask my question anyway.


<hr /></blockquote>

Make it 3, I'm outraged. /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
I'm also hoping I can whitness this at DCC.

JB

Rich R.
12-02-2004, 04:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I hope that Dr. Dave won't be added to the list of folks run off of here...just for trying to help out us "avg players"<hr /></blockquote>
All Fred did was question one of Dr. Daves demo's.
Fred was polite and asked a question. How can that be interpreted as "running someone off"?
If, in fact, there was something done during a demo, to achive the desired effect, you have to question all other demo's.
The only people who have been "run off" are those that want their word taken as the gospel truth, without question. I see nothing wrong with asking questions. IMHO, that is what the forums are for.
I, for one, would love to read an account of this shot demo, if Dr. Dave is willing to meet with Fred. BTW, if this meeting does not take place at the DCC, I would like to witness it myself, at VF.

JimS
12-02-2004, 07:45 AM
I thought that Fred's tone was pretty aggressive. It seemed more than just questioning, more like confrontation and close to aggressive or attacking. That's the tone that I read into it but maybe it's just my attitude that found that tone to be present?

SpiderMan
12-02-2004, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Your demo seems to show an amount of throw pretty much non-existent in the real world. It is my contention that this amount of throw isn't real and that you've doctored your shot. If my contention is true, then, IMO, you've done a disservice.

What say you? Are you willing to meet me at DCC or Valley Forge and show me that same exact shot and we (you and I) will fully disclose the result on this forum????

You realize that every video in your arsenal, IMO, is in question because of this blatant issue. That includes the "jump shot" that you say you need the extra piece of cloth to "protect the table." The rest of us know that the extra cloth helps the jump shot in a "trampoline" effect.
<hr /></blockquote>

Fred,

Before assuming the worst, I think it's also important to consider intent of the material overall - and here perhaps the intent was to demonstrate a point.

If the throw is eggagerated, maybe the intent was to make it plainer to an audience who had never considered the effect at all. Anyway, I can walk into a local bar, find balls whose surface is like dirty sandpaper, and demonstrate throw similar to a chalked contact point on normal gear. Would this be a "doctored" shot, since I could encounter it in real-world play?

I agree with your judgement of the misleading statement regarding the use of a "jump pad". But still, what was the intent? Perhaps the author misled in order to educate, though I certainly agree it was misleading.

It seems that this material may be aimed at a relatively-unsophisticated audience. You have to realize that we are NOT typical pool players. When I was active in three different leagues, playing nearly every day of the week, probably not 1% of the players I knew had ever heard of RSB or this discussion board, though many watched pool on ESPN and bought books/videos. And that's in a city filled with industry and technophiles. We do not reflect the mainstream.

I'll look forward to Dr Dave's reply - has he been posting since you started this thread?

SpiderMan

wolfdancer
12-02-2004, 08:38 AM
Rich, I'll go along with JimS 's view. What has happened in the past, is that folks that come over here and try to contribute, have their posts questioned, challenged, ridiculed,etc...and get tired to being forced to defend every thought.
Fred's a good guy,and RandyG agrees with him, but his post could have been toned down a bit..problem is that kind of reply,sometimes opens the floodgates, and now the "gang-bangers" jump in.
But, that's just my opinion, and I don't speak "ex-cathreda", so to speak.

Deeman2
12-02-2004, 08:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I'll look forward to Dr Dave's reply - has he been posting since you started this thread?

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Nope, don't think so... </font color>

wolfdancer
12-02-2004, 08:45 AM
Re: that extra piece of cloth to protect the table....it's a good idea, and one room owner that I know of has players use it for the break shot...for several weeks after the table has been recovered. I don't practice jump shots on my table... I think it "stresses" the cloth.

Rich R.
12-02-2004, 08:51 AM
Jim and Wolfdancer, I don't want to speak for Fred's intent. All I can say is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to determine someone's tone from the printed word on the internet. I know that my tone, as well as many others, has been misinterpreted, in the past. I can only suggest that, when reading a post, you assume the best possible tone. This, hopefully, would avoid a lot of misinterpretation.

wolfdancer
12-02-2004, 09:19 AM
"You realize that every video in your arsenal, IMO, is in question because of this blatant issue. That includes the "jump shot" that you say you need the extra piece of cloth to "protect the table." The rest of us know that the extra cloth helps the jump shot in a "trampoline" effect."

"Every" video, in question??? Surely, you jest...after all, isn't your "trampoline effect" a bit of hyperbole, in itself, and therefore I should disqualify your entire post?
It's like saying if there were no WMD's, then the whole war is a fraud....
even the Bible, has some questionable statements in it....but did that deter the NRA ex-pres?
Maybe, somewhere in those videos, is one tip that will move my game up a notch, from pp to mediocre...
Ya gotta lighten up a little Fred, ..instead of being so dogmatic about your pool theories, try being a little more plastic......
bty....I use the cloth piece to protect my table...got that idea from a room owner

trailboss
12-02-2004, 09:26 AM
Yep.. I agree Rich! One of my posts hit the fan and it was not my intent to insult or be mean but, my post came across that way. I am sure Fred had not intended this post to be interpreted as an all out attack.

SpiderMan
12-02-2004, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote trailboss:</font><hr> Yep.. I agree Rich! One of my posts hit the fan and it was not my intent to insult or be mean but, my post came across that way. I am sure Fred had not intended this post to be interpreted as an all out attack. <hr /></blockquote>

Perhaps Fred's cynicism is a by-product of enduring the world's Bob Felchers and Fast Larries. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Qtec
12-02-2004, 11:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"You realize that every video in your arsenal, IMO, is in question because of this blatant issue. That includes the "jump shot" that you say you need the extra piece of cloth to "protect the table." The rest of us know that the extra cloth helps the jump shot in a "trampoline" effect."
<hr /></blockquote>

In Dave,s defense, I dont think he has ever said he was a great or talented player. Its obvious to me and surely a lot of others [ including Fred ] that Dave has difficulty with jumping balls. [ie wrong tecnique] In the example shown, he only jumps over half a ball and apparently with some difficulty.
What we dont know is whether he was using jump cue or not. This could make a difference.

As for the throw shot, I think Fred is correct. Then again I think its a moot point. If you tried this shot in a match, it would be immediately caled a foul.

I dont get the feeling that Dave is trying to lecture us. So he is nothing like FL.

JMO

Qtec

Perk
12-02-2004, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> You realize that every video in your arsenal, IMO, is in question because of this blatant issue. That includes the "jump shot" that you say you need the extra piece of cloth to "protect the table." The rest of us know that the extra cloth helps the jump shot in a "trampoline" effect.

Fred

Ready to lose a challenge.

<hr /></blockquote>
He doesnt say you need the extra cloth in his video. He says he is using one to 'protect' the cloth. There is nothing wrong with that statement. I am not sure why this would dispute his video? He states 'proper technique' to jump the cueball. This technique will jump the cueball regardless of the trampoline effect that you menioned. May need extra force, but each table, cloth, and slate will affect the force needed to make an accurate jumpshot.

Just curious on why you think this video is off?

Bob_Jewett
12-02-2004, 01:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> ... Your demo seems to show an amount of throw pretty much non-existent in the real world. ... <hr /></blockquote>
I'm guessing you're referring to the file HSV7-5_frozen_cue_ball_push_and_throw.wmv on the web site. The throw is visible, but not as extreme as I've usually seen with chalked balls. From that video, it's hard to tell the exact angle of throw, but it looks like a slope of about 1/10. That's an angle of about six degrees. That's very high for new, clean balls, but in the realm of possibility for very sticky balls. The practice balls used for the demo have relatively soft, porous surfaces compared to cast phenolic.

(For reference, six degrees is about 2/3rds of a diamond in six diamonds.)

Recently, I asked BD readers to measure how much object ball throw they got with the balls set up at the spot and shooting straight up the center of the table. One respondent reported banking the object ball one-cushion to the corner. Another reported no discernable throw.

dr_dave
12-02-2004, 02:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I apologize to two people specifically who take umbrage with this thread, but I'm going to ask my question anyway. <hr /></blockquote>
I wish I knew what you mean by this statement. Maybe you can send me a personal message to help enlighten me. I hope I haven't offended anyone. That certainly has not been my intent.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I see your frozen throw shot demo, and have expounded on this very forum on the bogus nature of the demonstration by yours and others, including the much heralded (and much admired by yours truly) Bob Byrne. In Byrne's video, he admits to having to chalk the contact area to get the throw necessary, similar to the amount of frozen throw you show on your videoa. On my posts, I have overly stated that most player over estimate and have no idea how much throw there is on shots. This is an important sharing point, in my view. Please don't point me to an anaysis.

Your demo seems to show an amount of throw pretty much non-existent in the real world. It is my contention that this amount of throw isn't real and that you've doctored your shot. If my contention is true, then, IMO, you've done a disservice. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not sure if you are referring to NV 7.5 or 7.6; but in both cases, I assure you that I did not put chalk on the balls to enhance the effect. However, I admit that I do not clean my "billiard" balls regularly. I was shooting videos for two solid weeks and did not clean the balls during this period, so it is likely that some of the balls were a little "dirty." However, I don't think the condition of my balls was any different from conditions experienced in normal play.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> What say you? Are you willing to meet me at DCC or Valley Forge and show me that same exact shot and we (you and I) will fully disclose the result on this forum???? <hr /></blockquote>
I will not be at those events /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif, but I hope we can meet in the future to try it out on various tables under various conditions, with a few beers and active discussion.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> You realize that every video in your arsenal, IMO, is in question because of this blatant issue. That includes the "jump shot" that you say you need the extra piece of cloth to "protect the table." The rest of us know that the extra cloth helps the jump shot in a "trampoline" effect. <hr /></blockquote>

The spare piece of cloth does "protect the table" from semi-permanent white spots (AKA burn marks). However, you are right, as I point out in my book, that the thicker effective cloth does make masse and jump shots a little easier. The cue ball, during the cloth compression, has more distance and time to build up speed before it bounces off the slate. The cloth is not helping like a "trampoline," it is just giving the cue ball a little more room.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Fred

Ready to lose a challenge.

<hr /></blockquote>
I like challenges. In fact I challenge you in return. I bet any sum of money, after any number of alcoholic beverages, that I can make more carom shots in a row than you can make cut shots in a row, as shown in my video NV A.1 and described in my June, 2004 article (both on my website). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dr_dave
12-02-2004, 02:44 PM
Qtec,

You are absolutely correct: my technique is far from perfect. You are also correct that I was not using a jump cue for the video. I also had not practiced jump shots very much before shooting that video (I'm better now). Maybe when I get some time, I will post better versions of some of the videos. But time is not always readily available, especially when I spend the whole day writing and responding to BD forum messages. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif (Please don't tell my department head.)

I certainly hope that people don't think I am trying to lecture them. Although, I am a university professor, so I regretfully admit that I might have a lecturing style at times. I hope it is not too big of a turn-off.

Regards.

dr_dave
12-02-2004, 02:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cueball1950:</font><hr> What have i missed...who is dr dave... where is this thread that fred is talking about. i would like to read it as i am a 3 cushion player and use spin on the ball quite frequently....mike <hr /></blockquote>

The thread is at http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=167746&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1

Fred Agnir
12-02-2004, 03:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Rich, I'll go along with JimS 's view. What has happened in the past, is that folks that come over here and try to contribute, have their posts questioned, challenged, ridiculed,etc...and get tired to being forced to defend every thought. <hr /></blockquote> My personal opinion is that people have run themselves off of forums for their inability to read content and make too many assumptions on content, then take every word as a personal attack. It's just words. No more, no less. I speak as I write. Those that have met me know exactly what tone comes out of my mouth.

I think a dilligent searcher will see me questioning these videos previously with the same words. Anyone who has ever read my posts know that I get edgy when misleading information is presented, especially information that for today's internet community is or at least should be commonly known as highly discussed. The jump shot on a piece of cloth is misleading. Is there any disputing that?

I have put out challenges to many people on what I believe are common myths on this game. I don't know Dr. Dave from Adam, but I see some of his videos as misleading, so I'll challenge them. Whether I'm wrong or right, I think people will benefit in the end.

If it's okay for anyone to present their videos, then I assume a critique is within the viewer's rights.

Fred

Fred Agnir
12-02-2004, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
I agree with your judgement of the misleading statement regarding the use of a "jump pad". But still, what was the intent? Perhaps the author misled in order to educate, though I certainly agree it was misleading.

It seems that this material may be aimed at a relatively-unsophisticated audience. You have to realize that we are NOT typical pool players. <hr /></blockquote>Fair enough. Who is to point out to the "relatively-unsophisticated" about the possible "misleading" areas?


[ QUOTE ]
When I was active in three different leagues, playing nearly every day of the week, probably not 1% of the players I knew had ever heard of RSB or this discussion board, though many watched pool on ESPN and bought books/videos. And that's in a city filled with industry and technophiles. We do not reflect the mainstream.
<hr /></blockquote>What was astonishing was the amount of work he has done with high-speed videos and the study of pool ball physics when so much of that type of work and discussion has been going on for so long in RSB (Bob Jewett, Ron Shepard, and others) or even AZBilliards (Colin Colenso) lately.

Fred

Rod
12-02-2004, 03:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if you are referring to NV 7.5 or 7.6; but in both cases, I assure you that I did not put chalk on the balls to enhance the effect. However, I admit that I do not clean my "billiard" balls regularly. <hr /></blockquote>

Dr Dave,

Both shots look fairly normal to me as far as throw is concerned. In both cases they barely make it in the side of the pocket. All well and good but the shot NV7.6 was not frozen.

I've passed your site along to others over the last two or maybe 3 years. You're the only one to put in this much effort to my knowledge. For those that don't know why stuff happens, a visual is always good.

There are some, shall I say, vague areas but all in all a good job. Forgive Fred, he and some others all seem to think "everyone" attends VF and DCC. LOL

Rod

dr_dave
12-02-2004, 04:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>
Dr Dave,

Both shots look fairly normal to me as far as throw is concerned. In both cases they barely make it in the side of the pocket. All well and good but the shot NV7.6 was not frozen. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with you on both counts. When I set up the shot, I meant for the cue ball to be frozen to the object ball; but obviously, from the sound of the shot, there must of been a small gap between the balls. I did not realize this until after I posted the video. Thanks for pointing this out.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>
I've passed your site along to others over the last two or maybe 3 years. You're the only one to put in this much effort to my knowledge. For those that don't know why stuff happens, a visual is always good.

There are some, shall I say, vague areas but all in all a good job. Forgive Fred, he and some others all seem to think "everyone" attends VF and DCC. LOL

Rod
<hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for this. It feels good to know that people appreciate my efforts and understand/accept my limitations.

wolfdancer
12-02-2004, 07:24 PM
Actually, Mr Fred...your questions/challenges are usually pretty sound.....but your engineering background, may make you sound a little too "picky"
It's the posters that try to knock every "name" that tries to add something here.
We've lost:
George Fels
Fran Crimi
Bob Francher
Gerald Huber....although I've seen some recent posts
i'm sure there were others

and from the "special Ed" dept.
Patrick
&amp;
Fast Larry

wolfdancer
12-02-2004, 07:29 PM
I've always doubted whether John Wooden could make a 15 ft jump shot,with the game on the line...but he's in the Hall of Fame....for teaching others how
Casey Stengal's finest moment as a player was with the Brooklyn fans, after being traded to Pittsburgh,and returning to Ebbets Field in 1918, where he acknowledged the crowd and a sparrow flew out from beneath his cap.

Fred Agnir
12-03-2004, 12:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>

Dr Dave,

Both shots look fairly normal to me as far as throw is concerned. In both cases they barely make it in the side of the pocket.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe a video on throw should include both clean and dirty balls to show an appreciation of the difference. Optically, IMO, the video seems to show more throw than reality. But, it could be a matter of perspective.

[ QUOTE ]
All well and good but the shot NV7.6 was not frozen.<hr /></blockquote>I think that last time these videos were discussed a year ago or so, this was one of my bugaboos.

Fred &lt;~~~ just what the hell is a bugaboo?

Rich R.
12-03-2004, 04:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> It's the posters that try to knock every "name" that tries to add something here.
We've lost:
George Fels
Fran Crimi
Bob Francher
Gerald Huber....although I've seen some recent posts
i'm sure there were others

and from the "special Ed" dept.
Patrick
&amp;
Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>
Some of those lost are dearly missed, while others are better off gone. I will let everyone decide for themselves, which is which. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

nhp
12-03-2004, 06:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
On my posts, I have overly stated that most player over estimate and have no idea how much throw there is on shots. <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, I'm sure you already know that conditions such as humidity, dirty balls, etc effect the amount of throw. The amount of throw you get varies, there is no exact amount.

[ QUOTE ]
Your demo seems to show an amount of throw pretty much non-existent in the real world. It is my contention that this amount of throw isn't real and that you've doctored your shot. If my contention is true, then, IMO, you've done a disservice.
<hr /></blockquote>

Go and look at the video again, and see how big the pockets are. They are huge. I thought the ball was going to miss by a mile (the video is kind of dark) but it went in. I have experimented with those shots, on many separate occasions, and I have seen balls throw at surprisingly large amounts, undoctored. Those videos did not surprise me one bit, except for the size of the pockets.

[ QUOTE ]
That includes the "jump shot" that you say you need the extra piece of cloth to "protect the table." The rest of us know that the extra cloth helps the jump shot in a "trampoline" effect.
<hr /></blockquote>

I don't understand why you are going to challenge him on this issue. In the video he was in no way (from what it seemed) trying to brag about his ability to jump. It was an instructional video, and he was merely trying to teach people how to execute a jump shot. The jump shot he made was very possible, especially with a jump cue, so it's not like he was boasting about his ability. Also, if I had my own table at home, I wouldn't dare try a jump shot like that without using padding, because it does leave spots on the cloth. He was just trying to take care of his equipment.

Dr. Dave- I think you have a great website, and I think it's good-natured of you to provide a vast library of instructional clips for anyone who wants to learn the game. Just one thing I found kind of funny, was your power-break video. It just looked kind of funny to me how you were rocking your body back and forth before you broke the balls. I personally don't think that's very good form for the break, generally you want to keep still during your practice strokes to keep your cue in line. Nice website though.

DickLeonard
12-03-2004, 06:46 AM
Fred I am not aware of the shot in question but I do remember a trick shot that was frozen and couldn't be made but with a little sleight of hand while the first shot was missing, you would lick your fingers and the moisture on your fingers was placed on the contact point and the combonation would go right in. ####

Rod
12-03-2004, 09:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a video on throw should include both clean and dirty balls to show an appreciation of the difference. Optically, IMO, the video seems to show more throw than reality. But, it could be a matter of perspective.
<hr /></blockquote>

How dirty, what distance, what angle? When playing, can you detect how dirty contact points are? Pretty soon there might be a cast of thousands! LOL

It's hard to see exactly and angles can look a tad off on video. I sure mentioned it last time, on the rattle between frozen balls. I'm sure in time that will be corrected.

Rod

hondo
12-03-2004, 09:48 AM
And don't forget Mark Tadd. He felt like he got hit by
a Mack truck. However, he got roughed up a little
on AZ too &amp; I haven't seen his post lately there.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Actually, Mr Fred...your questions/challenges are usually pretty sound.....but your engineering background, may make you sound a little too "picky"
It's the posters that try to knock every "name" that tries to add something here.
We've lost:
George Fels
Fran Crimi
Bob Francher
Gerald Huber....although I've seen some recent posts
i'm sure there were others

and from the "special Ed" dept.
Patrick
&amp;
Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
12-03-2004, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Fred I am not aware of the shot in question but I do remember a trick shot that was frozen and couldn't be made but with a little sleight of hand while the first shot was missing, you would lick your fingers and the moisture on your fingers was placed on the contact point and the combonation would go right in. #### <hr /></blockquote>

I assure you that I did not add chalk or saliva to any surfaces in any of my videos, including the throw videos NV 4.15, 7.5, and 7.6 at www.engr.colostate.edu/pool/normal_videos (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html). Although, those are fun (but illegal) tricks.

Popcorn
12-03-2004, 11:57 AM
Quote

"Dr. Dave- I think you have a great website, and I think it's good-natured of you to provide a vast library of
instructional clips for anyone who wants to learn the game.
Just one thing I found kind of funny, was your power-break video. It just looked kind of funny to me how you were rocking your body back and forth before you broke the balls. I personally don't think that's very good form for the break, generally you want to keep still during your practice strokes to keep your cue in line. Nice website though."

I agree a good break comes from timing. Some of the most powerfull breaks I have seen seem effortless.

Perk
12-03-2004, 12:28 PM
I noticed it too on the powerbreak video. Also seems that on some of his shots that he is over emphasizing fundamentals and looks so uncomfortable or awkward shooting. I showed a couple of his vids to some friends of mine, and one of them stated: "He has my action". Made me start wondering how well he plays.

I enjoyed the videos, and there were a few things that any player could take, even in the simplest of forms. IMO

Popcorn
12-03-2004, 04:19 PM
Watch this clip and you will get an idea how he plays. You don't have to be a very good player to teach though. I find some of what he says to be incorrect but it is an interesting web site.

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-6.htm

Stretch
12-03-2004, 05:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> It's the posters that try to knock every "name" that tries to add something here.
We've lost:
George Fels
Fran Crimi
Bob Francher
Gerald Huber....although I've seen some recent posts
i'm sure there were others

and from the "special Ed" dept.
Patrick
&amp;
Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>
Some of those lost are dearly missed, while others are better off gone. I will let everyone decide for themselves, which is which. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Good point Rich. St

Stretch
12-03-2004, 05:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I apologize to two people specifically who take umbrage with this thread, but I'm going to ask my question anyway. <hr /></blockquote>
I wish I knew what you mean by this statement. Maybe you can send me a personal message to help enlighten me. I hope I haven't offended anyone. That certainly has not been my intent.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I see your frozen throw shot demo, and have expounded on this very forum on the bogus nature of the demonstration by yours and others, including the much heralded (and much admired by yours truly) Bob Byrne. In Byrne's video, he admits to having to chalk the contact area to get the throw necessary, similar to the amount of frozen throw you show on your videoa. On my posts, I have overly stated that most player over estimate and have no idea how much throw there is on shots. This is an important sharing point, in my view. Please don't point me to an anaysis.

Your demo seems to show an amount of throw pretty much non-existent in the real world. It is my contention that this amount of throw isn't real and that you've doctored your shot. If my contention is true, then, IMO, you've done a disservice. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not sure if you are referring to NV 7.5 or 7.6; but in both cases, I assure you that I did not put chalk on the balls to enhance the effect. However, I admit that I do not clean my "billiard" balls regularly. I was shooting videos for two solid weeks and did not clean the balls during this period, so it is likely that some of the balls were a little "dirty." However, I don't think the condition of my balls was any different from conditions experienced in normal play.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> What say you? Are you willing to meet me at DCC or Valley Forge and show me that same exact shot and we (you and I) will fully disclose the result on this forum???? <hr /></blockquote>
I will not be at those events /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif, but I hope we can meet in the future to try it out on various tables under various conditions, with a few beers and active discussion.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> You realize that every video in your arsenal, IMO, is in question because of this blatant issue. That includes the "jump shot" that you say you need the extra piece of cloth to "protect the table." The rest of us know that the extra cloth helps the jump shot in a "trampoline" effect. <hr /></blockquote>

The spare piece of cloth does "protect the table" from semi-permanent white spots (AKA burn marks). However, you are right, as I point out in my book, that the thicker effective cloth does make masse and jump shots a little easier. The cue ball, during the cloth compression, has more distance and time to build up speed before it bounces off the slate. The cloth is not helping like a "trampoline," it is just giving the cue ball a little more room.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Fred

Ready to lose a challenge.

<hr /></blockquote>
I like challenges. In fact I challenge you in return. I bet any sum of money, after any number of alcoholic beverages, that I can make more carom shots in a row than you can make cut shots in a row, as shown in my video NV A.1 and described in my June, 2004 article (both on my website). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

It's funny how some things kind of jump out at you. So far it's been a very civil and informative discussion on both sides. I don't view these discusions as winner/loser, right/wrong or any other criteria. As a student of the game i just want to learn and these discusions tend to bring forth a lot of good points for me to concider.

What cought my eye in this post was your challenge to match carom verses cut shot. I think I'd be puting my money on you Dave. I base this on my experience of trying to make a long combonation from behind the headstring onto a ball on the headspot to a ball jawed in the pocket. The result was that my percentage was WAY better when i tryed to carom the jawed ball down as opposed to trying a cut shot combonation. It seems that with the carom shot your margine for error is much greater. It's a good thing to know! St.

Rod
12-03-2004, 05:42 PM
OK, ST, the only two I miss were here well before me! LOL
How's that for a hint? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

Popcorn
12-03-2004, 05:54 PM
I don't think the doc will be going anywhere soon till he is done pimping his web site and book that just recently came out. In his almost 40 posts in the last couple of days I don't think he has responded to any thread other then his own or asks and answers his own questions. I doubt he is really interested in actually participating that much. He has an agenda, but he is certainly welcome. All the links to his web site are getting a little old though. just my opinion.

recoveryjones
12-03-2004, 07:17 PM
I was pleased to find Dr Daves site, lots of good info for sure.I'm not in love with his shooting style and I don't question the correctedness some of the posters who perhaps have noticed some mistakes.There are a smart bunch here at CCB.

Other teachers like Ray Martin "99 Critical Shots in Pool" offer a wealth of info as well.People have brought it to my attention that a few of Ray Martins illustrations are innaccurate as well.

I thought it was a little harsh( by a few) to judge such a wealth of GOOD information (by Dr. Dave) and to suggest that a mistake or two puts all teachings under question.Having said that , I see their point as well and I guess teachers should be accountable and students accuratley informed.

When it comes to Dr.Dave, Ray Martin etc I think the best thing to do is actually, physically practice the things they are showing and weed it out for yourself.Appreciate them for what you learn and if they've made a mistake,negate it and except them for being human. RJ

Stretch
12-03-2004, 08:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> OK, ST, the only two I miss were here well before me! LOL
How's that for a hint? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

LOL ya me too, my last post was post "B". I'm my own worst sensor now, ever do that? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif St.~~old as dirt round here~~

Popcorn
12-03-2004, 10:19 PM
The only thing I saw on his site that was what I would call actually incorrect was the way he does a masse shot. The way he describes is not how you perform a masse. Other shots are hard to tell how they are being hit. The video clips run really smooth on my old computer.

dr_dave
12-04-2004, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I like challenges. In fact I challenge you in return. I bet any sum of money, after any number of alcoholic beverages, that I can make more carom shots in a row than you can make cut shots in a row, as shown in my video NV A.1 and described in my June, 2004 article (both on my website). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

What cought my eye in this post was your challenge to match carom verses cut shot. I think I'd be puting my money on you Dave. I base this on my experience of trying to make a long combonation from behind the headstring onto a ball on the headspot to a ball jawed in the pocket. The result was that my percentage was WAY better when i tryed to carom the jawed ball down as opposed to trying a cut shot combonation. It seems that with the carom shot your margine for error is much greater. It's a good thing to know! St. <hr /></blockquote>

You are smart to put your money on me for this challenge. In the June, 2004 article on my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool), I describe how the carom shot is about 10-times easier (i.e., 900% easier) than the cut shot, considering geometry only. Furthermore, the carom shot is made even easier by the fact you can aim directly at the edge of the object ball. For the cut shot, aiming is much more difficult -- you must visualize the ghost ball target without any clear reference. See the article for more details.

dr_dave
12-04-2004, 12:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> I was pleased to find Dr Daves site, lots of good info for sure.I'm not in love with his shooting style and I don't question the correctedness some of the posters who perhaps have noticed some mistakes.There are a smart bunch here at CCB.

Other teachers like Ray Martin "99 Critical Shots in Pool" offer a wealth of info as well.People have brought it to my attention that a few of Ray Martins illustrations are innaccurate as well.

I thought it was a little harsh( by a few) to judge such a wealth of GOOD information (by Dr. Dave) and to suggest that a mistake or two puts all teachings under question.Having said that , I see their point as well and I guess teachers should be accountable and students accuratley informed.

When it comes to Dr.Dave, Ray Martin etc I think the best thing to do is actually, physically practice the things they are showing and weed it out for yourself.Appreciate them for what you learn and if they've made a mistake,negate it and except them for being human. RJ <hr /></blockquote>

I appreciate these remarks. Thank you for posting them.

It seems like one must have very thick skin to be able to endure CCB for an extended period. I congratualate all participants who have had the tolerance, acceptance, patience, and emotional endurance to remain.

I think this forum is great, and I hope to contribute to and learn from it for a long time.

Regards.

Popcorn
12-04-2004, 12:46 PM
Quote
"It seems like one must have very thick skin to be able to endure CCB for an extended period. I congratualate all participants who have had the tolerance, acceptance, patience, and emotional endurance to remain."

Really, I have been posting here for a long time and don't find that to be the case.

recoveryjones
12-04-2004, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Quote
"It seems like one must have very thick skin to be able to endure CCB for an extended period. I congratualate all participants who have had the tolerance, acceptance, patience, and emotional endurance to remain."

Really, I have been posting here for a long time and don't find that to be the case. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with you on that one Popcorn. I've belonged to 5 different forums at one time or another and this is the tamest, with the nicest, non-confrontational people of them all.Go to Req Sport billiards and you will see flame wars.AZ Billiards is a great great forum, but we've had our fights there too.This place is mellow.RJ

Wally_in_Cincy
12-04-2004, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
...It seems like one must have very thick skin to be able to endure CCB for an extended period....
<hr /></blockquote>

Not really. Just don't be surprised if someone points out a flaw in your videos. Consider it constructive criticism.

If I could make one suggestion it would be this. For your Q &amp; A , rather than add yet another Q &amp; A to an already lengthy thread, start a new thread.

If the threads get too long it can be a problem for some folks. You may see what I mean after you get more accustomed to using the forum.

Popcorn
12-04-2004, 01:19 PM
I think what happened was the challenge by Fred and the silly challenged he issued back mentioning money. That is a no no in my opinion on forums like this. You don't say, "Oh Ya, well I'll play you some", it just isn't done. Same with trying to sell or promote stuff. We are all pool player here regardless of the different levels of our play and just want to objectively discuss the game, talk about tournaments, players, equipment and so on.

dr_dave
12-04-2004, 01:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
If I could make one suggestion it would be this. For your Q &amp; A , rather than add yet another Q &amp; A to an already lengthy thread, start a new thread.

If the threads get too long it can be a problem for some folks. You may see what I mean after you get more accustomed to using the forum. <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you for the suggestion. I will do this.

Fred Agnir
12-04-2004, 03:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>


How dirty, what distance, what angle? When playing, can you detect how dirty contact points are? Pretty soon there might be a cast of thousands! LOL<hr /></blockquote>

I think that instructional videos simply have to be careful at what they're conveying. So, I think it's fair to compare two shots, one clean and one dirty (or chalked for that matter). Just tell the audience with no trickery.

If his balls were dirty which he says, then that needs to be said IMO, so that a viewer gets the whole picture.

Fred

Fred Agnir
12-04-2004, 03:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I think what happened was the challenge by Fred and the silly challenged he issued back mentioning money. <hr /></blockquote>I also found it silly. My challenge was obviously one of "prove that what you're saying is true," as opposed to, "let's put a grand on who can piss farther."

Fred

Fred Agnir
12-04-2004, 03:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I don't understand why you are going to challenge him on this issue. In the video he was in no way (from what it seemed) trying to brag about his ability to jump. It was an instructional video, and he was merely trying to teach people how to execute a jump shot. <hr /></blockquote> Did he succeed, IYO? Do you think his technique would have stood up without the extra pad?

[ QUOTE ]
The jump shot he made was very possible, especially with a jump cue, so it's not like he was boasting about his ability. Also, if I had my own table at home, I wouldn't dare try a jump shot like that without using padding, because it does leave spots on the cloth. He was just trying to take care of his equipment. <hr /></blockquote> For one shot on an instructional video, anyone should be able to chance one spot on the cloth. And an instruction video on a jump shot should be done with a regular cue. Jump cue instructional videos should be done with jump cues, obviously.

The pad under the cue ball has been a known scam for decades. It should be brought up, IMO.

Fred

Fred Agnir
12-04-2004, 03:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I don't think the doc will be going anywhere soon till he is done pimping his web site and book that just recently came out. In his almost 40 posts in the last couple of days I don't think he has responded to any thread other then his own or asks and answers his own questions. I doubt he is really interested in actually participating that much. He has an agenda, but he is certainly welcome. All the links to his web site are getting a little old though. just my opinion. <hr /></blockquote>You and I are on the same page on this one. For once /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fred

dr_dave
01-26-2005, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>
Both shots look fairly normal to me as far as throw is concerned. In both cases they barely make it in the side of the pocket. All well and good but the shot NV7.6 was not frozen.<hr /></blockquote>

I agree with you on both counts. When I set up the shot, I meant for the cue ball to be frozen to the object ball; but obviously, from the sound of the shot, there must of been a small gap between the balls. I did not realize this until after I posted the video. Thanks for pointing this out.
<hr /></blockquote>
FYI, I have posted an updated version (see NV 7.6 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV7-6.htm)) where the cue ball and object are frozen, and the sound is more what you would expect to hear for a frozen push shot. Happy viewing! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fred Agnir
01-26-2005, 11:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I have posted an updated version (see NV 7.6 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV7-6.htm)) where the cue ball and object are frozen, and the sound is more what you would expect to hear for a frozen push shot. Happy viewing! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>I know it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but,... that's not a frozen push shot. It's a frozen throw shot. Not only would a frozen push shot be shot from a different stick angle, it would also be shot with an illegal push stroke.

If you stroke it legally from the "push" angle, it would be a legal directional throw shot.

Fred