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Popcorn
12-04-2004, 07:12 PM
Can I ask you a question, why are you posting all this stuff on here? I think it is a legitimate question. There are a number of very good players who post here some pro class but I have never seen anyone just post reams of unsolicited information. Can I ask you just some normal everyday questions like, what cue do you play with? What is your favorite game and why? Have you competed in any tournament play?

Ross
12-04-2004, 07:54 PM
And I ask why shouldn't he? That is also a legitimate question, Popcorn.

I, for one, think he has a lot to contribute to this board and find the info he posts interesting and the discussion that follows informative. In fact, being challenged here (not personally, but on issues of substance) may further Dave's work on the physics of pool. So it may well end up being useful for both his work and for us as well.

Also what Dave offers is different than what our A+ level players offer. Top players offer the unique knowledge gained from playing at a very high level. Dave offers more of a math/physics/analytical approach to understanding the game. It's all good...And even if we disagree with some of it - no harm done, right?

Also (and I'm asking this as a serious question, not a smart-alecky one) if it isn't someone's cup of tea, why can't they just skip the thread?

So, Dave, what kind of cue do you play with? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Popcorn
12-04-2004, 08:19 PM
I actually am curious. His web site has been up for some time but out of nowhere he has begun this assault on this board with many links to his site and promoting his book. Where was he before he had the book out he wants to promote? In several days he has made like 60 posts, that must be a record. I've looked at his web site and it is pretty good, very ambitious. As far as skipping his threads, he is pulling up long threads that are like 8 months old and jamming up the forum. Today maybe more then half of all threads in the last 24 hours are his doing. I was looking for a post someone made that got no replies and had to click on the guys name to get his post history. I could not find the post in the mess. Truthfully, I have stopped reading Dr. Dave's threads so it is a moot point. I will check if I get an answer to my questions but that will be about it.

Paul_Mon
12-04-2004, 10:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Can I ask you a question, why are you posting all this stuff on here? I think it is a legitimate question. There are a number of very good players who post here some pro class but I have never seen anyone just post reams of unsolicited information. Can I ask you just some normal everyday questions like, what cue do you play with? What is your favorite game and why? Have you competed in any tournament play? <hr /></blockquote>

Here's a few every day questions for you.

What is your real name?
What cue do you prefer?
What is your favorite game?
I could care less if you have tournament experience.



Using a Blackheart cue I favor 1 pocket because it is easier to handicap and allows me to be imaginative. But I play mostly 9 ball because that's what people around here prefer. I've played in very few tournaments.

Paul Mon

BCgirl
12-05-2004, 05:42 AM
It seems to me fairly obvious that he's doing just what so many other people do, use whatever medium (talk show, news channel ... or bulletin board) that you can to publicise a book or product. It's not the first time that some total junk has been hawked on this BB, and half the time it's fully endorsed by some pro!

I have to say that I found the site mildly interesting, although in the end, I thought there was little real content, and I, too, had my doubts about suspicious discontinuities in some of the clips. But, one has to ask, is a demo that's faked up to illustrate a real effect a bad thing? And, I guess, is the book likely to be any worse than some of the the paper trash served up by some of the game's greats?

Most of the topics discussed have been dealt with in great depth in the past in the Physics of Pocket Billiards (I think that was the title), mandatory reading for any analytical pool player IMO.

I think it's kind of funny that so many people have had their feathers ruffled over the posts. The BB has really been fairly dead for a while, so I for one am happy to see some fairly amusing threads, and some intelligent discussion, even if it's been sparked by some inane promotional trolling.

BCgirl

Popcorn
12-05-2004, 08:34 AM
I seriously doubt you really care but:
Who I am is not important. If you read what I write and I sound nuts or don't know what I am talking about challenge what I have to say and there in lies good discussion.
I play with one of my own cues.
I like one pocket and 9-ball even though straight pool is probably my best game.
I have played in lots of tournaments. I am not much of a watcher, I rarely attend a tournament and not play.

Paul_Mon
12-05-2004, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Who I am is not important. <hr /></blockquote>

If you say so.

Paul Mon~~~~important

Ross
12-05-2004, 10:11 AM
BCgirl, if you stop and think about it, the "Dave's just here to hawk" theory doesn't make a lot of sense.

First, the book he sells is 275 pages with hundreds of color illustrations and printed on very high quality heavy stock, high gloss paper selling to a limited audience. And it sells for $14.95, similar to the price of a NY Times best selling mass market pulp thriller printed on paper that is close to newsprint. So I would be astounded if he made more than $5 a book, and therefore I would be further astounded if "hawking" his book on CCB would make him more than $100 - $200 max. (How many books do you think he could sell just based on the CCB board alone?) I don't think on a professors salary that Dave would think this was a very good use of his time as a way of making money.

Second if he were a huckster, he would NOT limit his posts to CCB as he has done. It would be simple for him to run the same posts on RSB, AZB, poolplayers.com, etc., and increase his customer base many times over but he has chosen not to.

Third, he HAS explained why he is posting here. He writes a column for Billiards Digest. He had the CRAZY idea that people would appreciate it if he ran a question and answer column on the BD board as well. What an evil man he is for that!

Fourth, he started out putting his Q &amp; A's all on a SINGLE thread making it easy to ignore if you weren't interested. Not the typical work of a hawker who tends to reply to everyone else's thread to get their message spread as wide as possible. But then posters here complained about that practice and suggested he start new threads for each different topic. So he follows the suggestion (which made good sense) and then some bitch about that as as evidence of more hucksterism as well! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

If you have suggestions for the guy, then by all means give them. But otherwise, give the guy a break, folks. This is no money-making enterprise - if it is then Dave is the worst businessman I've ever run across. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The truth is, I think Dave had no ulterior motives but was a bit naive to discussion board dynamics. It would have been better if he came on here and introduced himself first and asked if people would be interested in a Q &amp; A of material similar to what he was publishing in BD. He didn't realize the wolves would circle if he skipped this bit of etiquette. He makes a comment that he is learning it takes a "thick skin" to post here and of course he is attacked about that as well.

Welcome to the friendly CCB board, Dave! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

PQQLK9
12-05-2004, 10:16 AM
tap...tap...tap

Popcorn
12-05-2004, 10:29 AM
Exactly, although I see through your attempt to diminish my answer with your sad reply, but that is your problem. Would it matter more if I was someone you have heard of? I read your posts and I know you know what you are talking about and we both know BS when we hear it. Doesn't matter who the person is, their words and ideas are what we judge.

dr_dave
12-05-2004, 10:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Can I ask you a question, why are you posting all this stuff on here? I think it is a legitimate question. There are a number of very good players who post here some pro class but I have never seen anyone just post reams of unsolicited information. Can I ask you just some normal everyday questions like, what cue do you play with? What is your favorite game and why? Have you competed in any tournament play? <hr /></blockquote>

I think Ross did an excellent job answering most of the questions on this entire thread ... much better than I could do. Please read his response (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=168331&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1).

Ross, thank you so much for being a supporter. I hope I get to meet you some day.

Popcorn, concerning some of your other questions:

what cue do you play with?
Nothing special. I don't believe in spending lots of money on cue sticks. If it is straight, has a good (well shaped, textured, medium hardness) tip, has a smooth shaft that is not too stiff or too flexible, and weighs about 19 oz, I'm happy. I'm sure most people would agree that the player is much more important than the stick.

What is your favorite game and why?
I love to play 8-ball with any of my many pool buddies. I like 8-ball because it is fun and easy at some levels, but it can also require chess-like strategy and shot-making skills at other levels.

I like 9-ball when practicing by myself because it helps create good position play skills. (I also like watching it at tournaments and on TV.) When practicing, whenever I hit a shot poorly, I try it over and over again until I am happy with the result. When I attempt a safety (whether it is successfull or not), I give myself ball-in-hand and try to run the rack. Playing alone isn't as fun, but I think it is important for improving one's game.

Have you competed in any tournament play?
Not really, just small bar tournaments. I have won a couple (only because no really good players showed up).

Popcorn, I can tell from your postings that you just don't like me and think I have ulterior motives. I hope your feelings about me change in the future. I would be happy to talk with you by phone if you think it would help. I also hope to meet you in person some day.

Popcorn
12-05-2004, 10:57 AM
I think he felt comfortable posting here since he is affiliated with the Billiard Digest. The book only recently came out which accounts for the timing of him showing up here. He would have been posting in the past if he had this burning desire to discuss pool. If he was not affiliated with the BD his posts with all the links would have been dumped by the web master.. These are just my observations. I could be wrong I can only go by what I see.

Billy_Bob
12-05-2004, 11:17 AM
I am here to learn and I would like to hear what everyone has to say. Knowledge is power.

Just "one post" on a forum such as this helped me to make one key shot which gave me 1st place in a local tournament.

Had I not read the post or had the person been discouraged from posting the information, I would not have made the shot.

So I for one am interested to hear what everyone has to say. Maybe there will be another "one post" which will help me with some other shot?

Popcorn
12-05-2004, 12:04 PM
I don't dislike you. I think the method you have chosen to post on the board with a huge number of topics all at one time makes for a mishmash that is hard to follow or respond to or discuss. No one is going any where, there is time to discuss everything. I see you will be giving some lectures in Florida not far from where I live around February. Can these be attended by anyone? I would love to meet you. We could go to the pool room and fool around with some of your stuff if you like. Is there a table set up when you give the lectures? Who is the audience?

Popcorn
12-05-2004, 12:09 PM
Your right.

dr_dave
12-05-2004, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>I see you will be giving some lectures in Florida not far from where I live around February. Can these be attended by anyone?<hr /></blockquote>
I would love for you to attend the lecture. These talks are usually open to the public, but it is up to the host. You can e-mail the contact person (see the info online (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/events.html)) to ask to attend and for details (time, place, directions).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>I would love to meet you. We could go to the pool room and fool around with some of your stuff if you like.<hr /></blockquote>
I would also very much like to meet you and other CCB participants and BD readers, if a talk happens to be in your area.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>Is there a table set up when you give the lectures? Who is the audience?<hr /></blockquote>
Sometimes a table has been available and sometimes the talk is given at a local pool hall. Although, I don't need a table for my talk. This is up to the host.

The audience is usually mechanical engineer professionals and students, sometimes with friends and family. The talks are sponsored by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME). I try to make the talk interesting to a general audience (even non pool players), but it is also well receive by engineers and pool players.

I hope you can make it.

Popcorn
12-05-2004, 01:01 PM
Are you open to discussions of your web site and findings even if we disagree? I commented in another post that you perform a masse shot incorrectly. Who taught you to do masse shots? Are you self taught in general?

cheesemouse
12-05-2004, 02:16 PM
Rosss....Tap...tap...tap

Once again the voice of reason shines thru....

Hey, Dave...I like your stuff...and I'm a feel player... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BCgirl
12-05-2004, 06:16 PM
Ross, I did think about it, and I also stopped to think again after your comments. I'm still inclined to think that he's promoting what's just another product, promoting himself as a contributor to BD, and promoting various demos, challenges and lectures on the pool circuit. But, that's simply my own conclusion.

I think you misinterpret my comments a little, though. A somewhat hapless or inept promoter (I'm paraphrasing from your comment) is not the same as an thick-skinned evil huckster (again, using your words). From what I've seen, the subject matter on the web site seems quite mundane, and, as I said, no worse than the material in billiard books served up by some of the game's best.

It's funny how posts can be interpreted. When I read comments like "275 pages", "hundreds of color illustrations", "very high quality heavy stock, high gloss paper", "limited audience", and "the price of a ... mass market pulp thriller", these are not comments one would typically hear from a totally objective bystander.

I'm not at all influenced by the "he's a prof" argument. In the US, there are the best and the greatest in both profs and universities, but there are also useless fraudsters from the University of Martian Bongo Drums that endorse useless creams and really silly exercise machines and sell them on QVC. I don't for a moment suggest that this guy is in the latter category, but just because he claims a professorship, or doctorate does not make him either a great authority on billiard physics, a member of a particular tax bracket, or an astute businessman.

At the end of the day, I go by the material and discussions that are presented to underpin the credibility of the material being discussed. I see some interesting but very amateur presentation. Compare this with the setups used to eliminate variables of stroke, aim etc, from observed effects in previous books that analyse and present the same effects, and that reinforces those observations.

To his credit, the guy doesn't claim to be a great player, and that's not hidden in the videos, either. I found some of the videos really quite amusing. Again, that doesn't mean that an interesting video presentation of well-known concepts is not useful to some people. And a credible and easily visible demo of collision effects that some top players will tell you don't occur, is a good thing. It's a little unfortunate that some apparent discontinuities in the videos detract from the degree of credibility.

I happen to think that it would be great if the guy would take his high-speed cameras to a Deuel or Reyes match, or a Sayginer 3-C game or artistic billiards game, where you'd really see the dynamics of cue ball flight in action. Attach a DVD with high-speed footage of some amazing artistic billiards shots to the BD magazine, and I'll certainly buy that issue. Might even consider a subscription :-)

BCgirl

Paul_Mon
12-05-2004, 07:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Exactly, although I see through your attempt to diminish my answer with your sad reply, but that is your problem. Would it matter more if I was someone you have heard of? I read your posts and I know you know what you are talking about and we both know BS when we hear it. Doesn't matter who the person is, their words and ideas are what we judge. <hr /></blockquote>

Sadly, You diminish all of your posts hiding behind the Popcorn. We all arrived in this world naked and without a name. The first thing we get is a name. Are you ashamed to to use yours? If we met at the pool hall would you introduce yourself as Popcorn? What is with you? You belittle a new poster, dr. dave, who tells us what he thinks and who he is. You cowardly hide behind the Popcorn and sling rancid butter.

Paul Mon

JimS
12-05-2004, 07:43 PM
Ross....I gotta tell ya...that was one helluva good post. Thanks.

JimS
12-05-2004, 07:45 PM
Dave. Please don't give into the temptation to defend yourself. Just let them attack and stick to ideas. You need not respond post wanting to know how often you play and with whom or with what. Just let it slide off and do your thing.

Popcorn
12-05-2004, 07:54 PM
What an idiotic post.

DialUp
12-05-2004, 08:52 PM
I think Dave's site is very helpful to *newer* players. If I did not understand "forum" dynamics, I would wonder why some of you are giving this man such a hard time... I guess if you think you are the BMOC, you have to take measures to keep anybody from stealing your "thunder"


I played some games with a guy like you tonight. He was name dropping and *new* everything there was to know about billiards. He also was certain he was a better player then I... Funny how I beat him 7 to 3 but he knows it was somehow a fluke and wants to give me a handicap the next time we play lol /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Anyways, I don't recall any of you complainers contributing to pool, in such an instructional way, as Dave does. He has my respect and has already done more for pool than I ever will.

Keep up the good work Dave!

silverbullet
12-05-2004, 09:25 PM
Just an opinion:

Dave is a 'scientist' and he did some research into the physics. He was already writing for BD and It seems that he thought that some of the things in his book or website might benefit someone on the forums.

He is not familiar with board dynamics, and how if a person comes on here posting in a fashion that could be construed as posting as an 'expert', that everything he posts, every detail of his videos might be dissected like a med student dissecting a cadaveur.

I think that this man is an innocent. Just a guy who played league, and came up with some knowlege based on science. It is a different kind of knowlege, based on science.

Don't see any sinister motives on his part...

Laura

Ross
12-05-2004, 10:47 PM
BCGirl, you misinterpreted so much in my post. If you re-read it you will see that I never said that Dave was hapless or inept, I never suggested you should believe him because he is a professor, and I neither praised nor criticized his book. I pointed out the number of pages and color illustrations and the heavy glossy stock because I thought it was relevant to my argument that there wasn't a lot of money to be made selling it at $14.95. I meant nothing more and nothing less.

I will argue with Dave as much as the next guy. I already have - see the thread on deflection and speed. I was just saying that calling him names, running down his efforts, and immediately assuming he has nefarious motives is not a very warm CCB welcome. But to each his/her own.

BCgirl
12-05-2004, 11:54 PM
&gt; BCGirl, you misinterpreted so much in my post.

Ross, I was arguing a point, as you were, and trying to variously clarify and take issue with points you made, but since you take specific issue with comments that I made, I'll respond.

&gt;If you re-read it you will see that I never said that Dave was hapless or inept.

I made it clear that "hapless and inept" was paraphrasing, which is generally defined as "your own rendition of information presented by someone else". You suggested that a volley of posts on the BB was a pretty silly waste of time for a professor. I translated the statement as "such behaviour is just too hapless and inept to make sense for someone with more profitable uses for their time", which is, I think, a reasonable interpretation. I think it's quite appropriate for me to have used the words, provided I indicate that it's not a direct quote, which I did. So, I'm quite happy for you to correct me if I've misinterpreted, but not to suggest that I was deliberately mis-quoting.

&gt; I never suggested you should believe him because he is a professor.

No, but you did say "I don't think on a professor's salary that Dave would think this was a very good use of his time as a way of making money". I say that, unless you have specific knowledge of this person's circumstances, the fact that he's a professor is completely irrelevant to any argument, be that a time-value judgement, or a credibility judgement that has been variously made elsewhere.

&gt; I was just saying that calling him names, running down his efforts, and immediately assuming he has nefarious motives is not a very warm CCB welcome. But to each his/her own.

In general, I'd agree with you (and I've taken pains to differentiate helpful sharing of knowledge from self-promotion and from any form of nefarious intent), but on the other hand, one can always make choices as to how to present oneself, especially in Email, and to what extent one wants to ruffle feathers, and it's quite clear that some of the ruffling has been very effective.

BCgirl

Popcorn
12-06-2004, 12:09 AM
Heres the bottom line and take it for what it is worth. He has put up a web site with pool demonstrations supposedly presenting a scientific study of some of the principles of pool. A few of us have questioned him and been attacked for doing so. First, are all these conclusions he presents his own, or was this a class study with a lot of different qualified people reviewing the information, maybe some experienced players with qualified back grounds. Or was he just in his living room doing this stuff and drawing his own conclusions with a minimal of study. It was obviously done on the cheap and not a funded study with maybe a grant or something. He says numerously times in the clips he is using a second piece of cloth to protect his table from being marked. (If it were me, I would not care about a $200. piece of cloth more then what I was trying to learn). This is going to compromise some of the results and actually if the intent was to do the best controlled study that he could, was is just the wrong way to do it. He makes a comment on here that he never even cleaned the balls for two weeks while he was doing the tests. Again, not exactly what a real professional researcher would do. many of the shots he lacks the skills to perform. he should have had the assistance of a very good player. In one clip he shoots a masse shot that he can't even make work, others he shoots completely wrong explaining what he is doing, again incorrectly. This was not a serious study and was done in an amateurish way with skewed results. If you want to be some blind follower or disciple of his that is your prerogative, don't make it mine. And that "IS" my last word on the subject. I will leave him and his followers to their own devices. Enough said.

Paul_Mon
12-06-2004, 05:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> What an idiotic post. <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Jolly Time. Try reading it again. My "Idiotic" post is along the same vein as yours is to dr. dave. I ask a reasonable question of you.

Paul Mon

Stretch
12-06-2004, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> What an idiotic post. <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Jolly Time. Try reading it again. My "Idiotic" post is along the same vein as yours is to dr. dave. I ask a reasonable question of you.

Paul Mon <hr /></blockquote>

LOL! Almost spit my coffee out on that one. Love him or hate him (Dr. Dave that is) he's generated one heck of a lot of entertaining reading eh? Your a good fellow Paul, and so is Popcorn (not trying to butter him up). Just don't want anyone to go off half-popped lol St.

Fred Agnir
12-06-2004, 07:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> Third, he HAS explained why he is posting here. He writes a column for Billiards Digest. He had the CRAZY idea that people would appreciate it if he ran a question and answer column on the BD board as well. What an evil man he is for that!<hr /></blockquote> I agree with this. It was a crazy idea. Normal open discussion forums of any subject on the internet aren't geared towards a question and answer column that one person provides both.
[ QUOTE ]
If you have suggestions for the guy, then by all means give them.<hr /></blockquote> Done that. No response. No change. Oh well.

[ QUOTE ]
The truth is, I think Dave had no ulterior motives but was a bit naive to discussion board dynamics. <hr /></blockquote>And normally, this is the root cause of why people get "run off" as has been put so eloquently. Nobody gets run off; they just don't get the board dynamics. This is not unique to billiard forums.

Fred

Fred Agnir
12-06-2004, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> what cue do you play with?
Nothing special. I don't believe in spending lots of money on cue sticks. <hr /></blockquote> It could explain your squirt video. I think with today's knowledge of squirt, cue specifications disclosure should be a requirement on demonstration videos. But that's just me.

[ QUOTE ]
Popcorn, I can tell from your postings that you just don't like me <hr /></blockquote>I have no idea who Popcorn is (okay, that's probably not true), but nothing in his posts to you suggests he doesn't like you. I would suggest you simply read his words.

Fred

SpiderMan
12-06-2004, 08:56 AM
Ross,

I've probably disagreed with you more often than otherwise, but your take on this subject has been insightful and well-articulated. Excellent discussion.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
12-06-2004, 09:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Exactly, although I see through your attempt to diminish my answer with your sad reply, but that is your problem. Would it matter more if I was someone you have heard of? I read your posts and I know you know what you are talking about and we both know BS when we hear it. Doesn't matter who the person is, their words and ideas are what we judge. <hr /></blockquote>

Sadly, You diminish all of your posts hiding behind the Popcorn. We all arrived in this world naked and without a name. The first thing we get is a name. Are you ashamed to to use yours? If we met at the pool hall would you introduce yourself as Popcorn? What is with you? You belittle a new poster, dr. dave, who tells us what he thinks and who he is. You cowardly hide behind the Popcorn and sling rancid butter.
Paul Mon <hr /></blockquote>

Paul,

I think you are just making a point with "Popcorn", but my take on the name thing, as far as this board is concerned, is quite different from what you express in the quoted post.

When I joined this discussion group about 3 years ago, I used a "handle" for the sole reason that it seemed to be the most common etiquette among then-current participants. Rather than make one up, I used the one attributed to me years ago by my shooting buddies and teammates, and yes many do call me by this name at the local poolroom.

But, anyone with whom I have had any private message traffic gets a response with my real name, and most who care know me anyway. I suspect the same is true of Popcorn, though his personality certainly makes him less approachable.

I am aware of only one CCB regular, Vagabond, who seems truly paranoid about his identity, but that's his personal issue no business of ours. Please don't lump us all into that category.

SpiderMan

Eric.
12-06-2004, 09:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> and so is Popcorn (not trying to butter him up). Just don't want anyone to go off half-popped lol St. <hr /></blockquote>

You're killin me, Stretch. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


Eric &gt;wasn't that a Stretch

dr_dave
12-06-2004, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DialUp:</font><hr> I think Dave's site is very helpful to *newer* players. If I did not understand "forum" dynamics, I would wonder why some of you are giving this man such a hard time... I guess if you think you are the BMOC, you have to take measures to keep anybody from stealing your "thunder"


I played some games with a guy like you tonight. He was name dropping and *new* everything there was to know about billiards. He also was certain he was a better player then I... Funny how I beat him 7 to 3 but he knows it was somehow a fluke and wants to give me a handicap the next time we play lol /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Anyways, I don't recall any of you complainers contributing to pool, in such an instructional way, as Dave does. He has my respect and has already done more for pool than I ever will.

Keep up the good work Dave!
<hr /></blockquote>

Thank you.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dr_dave
12-06-2004, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I commented in another post that you perform a masse shot incorrectly.<hr /></blockquote>
I agree with you that I am not very good at executing difficult masse shots (e.g., NV A.6 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-6.htm)). However, sometimes I think you misinterpret the purpose of some of my video demonstrations. Please read the articles (and my book, if you have a copy) to see how they are used in context. If you don't have a copy of my book, I would be happy to send you a free copy as a gesture of good will.

Honestly, I don't feel a need to be able to make those types of shots. I would much rather spend my limited time trying to improve my speed control, position play, and safety play skills. Also, in my opinion, if someone gets into a position where they need to shoot such a difficult masse shot, they are probably not a very good player. Although, I admit that I wish I could make such a shot for fun. Although, I have no ambition whatsoever to enter any Trick Shot Magic tournaments in the future. If I did, I would probably try to take a class from Mike Massey. (I already read his book, which I enjoyed.)

Also, if you would like to make some suggestions concerning proper masse technique and equipment, some readers might be interested in your advice.

dr_dave
12-06-2004, 10:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Dave. Please don't give into the temptation to defend yourself. Just let them attack and stick to ideas. You need not respond post wanting to know how often you play and with whom or with what. Just let it slide off and do your thing.<hr /></blockquote>

Thank you for your suggestion. I agree that I need to get better at this. The many supportive replies I have received (some privatel, some public) have helped a great deal.

Fred Agnir
12-06-2004, 10:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DialUp:</font><hr> I think Dave's site is very helpful to *newer* players. If I did not understand "forum" dynamics, I would wonder why some of you are giving this man such a hard time... <hr /></blockquote>

Fair enough. It's helpful for newer players. Should more advanced players not look at them? Should there be no constructive criticism? Without critique, there will be no improvement. Are you suggesting the latter?

[ QUOTE ]
I guess if you think you are the BMOC, you have to take measures to keep anybody from stealing your "thunder"<hr /></blockquote> This is pretty shallow thinking. I doubt anyone who has highlighted any issues with Dr. Dave's presentation here thinks in this manner.

Fred

dr_dave
12-06-2004, 10:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> what cue do you play with?
Nothing special. I don't believe in spending lots of money on cue sticks. <hr /></blockquote> It could explain your squirt video. I think with today's knowledge of squirt, cue specifications disclosure should be a requirement on demonstration videos. But that's just me.<hr /></blockquote>

What type of information would you like? I will try to provide as much information I can.

Fred Agnir
12-06-2004, 10:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> what cue do you play with?
Nothing special. I don't believe in spending lots of money on cue sticks. <hr /></blockquote> It could explain your squirt video. I think with today's knowledge of squirt, cue specifications disclosure should be a requirement on demonstration videos. But that's just me.<hr /></blockquote>

What type of information would you like? I will try to provide as much information I can. <hr /></blockquote>??? I think the question was clear. What stick do you use? What shaft do you use?

Fred

dr_dave
12-06-2004, 10:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> Just an opinion:

Dave is a 'scientist' and he did some research into the physics. He was already writing for BD and It seems that he thought that some of the things in his book or website might benefit someone on the forums.

He is not familiar with board dynamics, and how if a person comes on here posting in a fashion that could be construed as posting as an 'expert', that everything he posts, every detail of his videos might be dissected like a med student dissecting a cadaveur.

I think that this man is an innocent. Just a guy who played league, and came up with some knowlege based on science. It is a different kind of knowlege, based on science.

Don't see any sinister motives on his part...

Laura <hr /></blockquote>
Thank you very much for your support.

Rod
12-06-2004, 11:08 AM
Dave,

In short, it is a Masse' shot, draw is not needed in the explanation. You don't use your hand on the table bridge, rather the bridge hand is up against your side (waist line). Your cue angle is a little shallow about 80 degrees is ok for this shot. This type of setup was used by all the greats and far more powerful. Not that you need a lot of power here, you don't. However with your short unstable bridge it is much more of an effort. Two of those trys you hit the c/b near dead center, ie nothing happened, your cue bounced back because the c/b was trapped.

If you do a search there should be a free short video. If not perhaps someone knows a link.

Rod

dr_dave
12-06-2004, 11:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Dave,

In short, it is a Masse' shot, draw is not needed in the explanation. You don't use your hand on the table bridge, rather the bridge hand is up against your side (waist line). Your cue angle is a little shallow about 80 degrees is ok for this shot. This type of setup was used by all the greats and far more powerful. Not that you need a lot of power here, you don't. However with your short unstable bridge it is much more of an effort. Two of those trys you hit the c/b near dead center, ie nothing happened, your cue bounced back because the c/b was trapped.

If you do a search there should be a free short video. If not perhaps someone knows a link.

Rod
<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks. I will try to post a better version when I get a chance. I've also been told (and it makes intuitive sense) that a heavier cue helps.

Rod
12-06-2004, 11:33 AM
A heaver cue is the least of the problem. Actually anything between 18 to 20 oz will work fine. Heavier is ok but not necessary at all.

I found a link but you need QuickTime player. I did not view it because I don't use QuickTime. You can see in the frame available how the cue is held. It looks like it would be a good demonstration. The 3C Player Saginer sp? has an excellent video.
Rod

dr_dave
12-06-2004, 02:10 PM
Here is the information on the stick I used for the squirt (and most other) videos:
<ul type="square"> 19 oz Players Cue
2-piece, solid wood construction (wood type unkown)
shaft taper: 13 mm at ferrule, 14mm at 1 ft from ferrule, 21 mm at joint
medium hardness tip (brand unknown), shaped to curvature of a nickel
[/list]
Like a said ... nothing special.

And I agree with you that the amount of squirt can vary significantly from one cue to the next. But I suspect (without doing a complete study) that most (if not all) cues would exhibit more squirt at higher speeds.

Concerning swerve, I am convinced it was not an issue with my experiment, based on my reply to Ross in my original message:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
I doubt there is any significant curve (swerve) in the shots in my video [NV A.17 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-17.htm)]. My cue stick was nearly horizontal and I hit through the cue ball horizontal plane on every shot. My actual cue stick elevation was only about 1.4 degrees per my measurements and analysis TP A.3 on my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/pool). Also, any curve (if there was any) was too small to observe, at any speed. This is difficult to prove from the low resolution video posted, but it was clear in person. Try the experiment yourself and let me know if you observe any curve.
<hr /></blockquote>

Fred Agnir
12-06-2004, 02:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Concerning swerve, I am convinced it was not an issue with my experiment, based on my reply to Ross in my original message:
<hr /></blockquote>Is it just me, or is it clear to me that on your videos, you demonstrate pretty much the same squirt on all your shots, and that swerve was most definitely noticeable on the soft shots?

The first couple of slow shots, the ball took a bite at the first hash mark. The medium shots take a bite right aobu the second hash mark, and the firm shots don't really break at all. But the squirt looks the same to me.

Anyone else????

Fred