PDA

View Full Version : CB Impact Timing And Follow Thru



Sid_Vicious
12-07-2004, 03:23 PM
I've recently found(re-discovered maybe) a new, easier stroke, one with a conscious attempt of moving the cue onto the cue ball and sensing in pre-shot the CB being hit and then taking off with no cling at all, followed with the tip follow through toward the OB. I admit that it does take more muscle control instead of just throwing the cue, at least that is how it works for me today. Most of my pool playing career has been using a stroke with as consistent speed as possible and follow thru but not this timing application. I am personally hitting about as well as I ever have using this and wanted feedback. Have I simply learned what the stroke onto the CB really is? How much emphasis do you put into the timing? Lastly, is simply hitting the CB with an accelerated cue adequate and I'm getting excited about nothing. Do you guys find that the timing of the tip hitting the CB is crutial to a perfect stroke?

I understand that any one particular stroke pattern will not always work with every situation, but this one seems to be holding up in most of my events so far...sid

Thanks...sid

SpiderMan
12-07-2004, 03:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I've recently found(re-discovered maybe) a new, easier stroke, one with a conscious attempt of moving the cue onto the cue ball and sensing in pre-shot the CB being hit and then taking off with no cling at all, followed with the tip follow through toward the OB. I admit that it does take more muscle control instead of just throwing the cue, at least that is how it works for me today. Most of my pool playing career has been using a stroke with as consistent speed as possible and follow thru but not this timing application. I am personally hitting about as well as I ever have using this and wanted feedback. Have I simply learned what the stroke onto the CB really is? How much emphasis do you put into the timing? Lastly, is simply hitting the CB with an accelerated cue adequate and I'm getting excited about nothing. Do you guys find that the timing of the tip hitting the CB is crutial to a perfect stroke?

I understand that any one particular stroke pattern will not always work with every situation, but this one seems to be holding up in most of my events so far...sid
Thanks...sid <hr /></blockquote>

Sid,

I'm having a hard time visualizing what you are talking about, particularly the "no cling" part. Are you saying that you envision your stroke as having two separate stages, the "contact" and then a follow-through?

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
12-07-2004, 04:04 PM
Yes, it is a sound that you hear and the feel in the wood then the CB is on it's way, followed with a deliberate extension of the shaft toward the line of travel. The stroke progression has been today, staggered a bit in it's delivery to attain the results I get when it's right. That stagger is either something as a reinforcement and will go away from over thinking, or else it is my way of getting through the CB with less tip influence on the cue ball after the hit. OR it is a bandaid. It isn't easy to duplicate so far today, but Wednesday night was a gift from the pool gods IMO...sid

Rod
12-07-2004, 04:31 PM
Sid,

I'm not sure what you mean by - with no cling at all. Another question - are you forcing a follow through?

The idea of throwing a cue gives you that thought, throwing a cue. You sort of do but your hand rides the cue through impact. If anything that is the timing part you feel in a good stroke; comming into impact with a relaxed grip and arm. In order to "ride the cue" through impact, the forward progression is a smooth unhurried motion and reaches the desired speed before impact. IMO that is what happens for most shots but not all of course.

I think this is the most difficult factor to overcome related to timing. Once a player has a good grasp of the concept, the follow through is a result of that timing.

I'll just say I may force a follow through sometimes, but (this is hard to explain) it's not really intentional in my concious state of my mind. I do that for an effect on certain shots because I know it works.

Rod

Sid_Vicious
12-07-2004, 05:32 PM
"I'm not sure what you mean by - with no cling at all. Another question - are you forcing a follow through?"

It's like the tip hits, hesitates for a small part of a second(a long millisecond maybe), whitie leaves and this is when I "make" the follow through straight toward the mark. It sounds jerky, but when the mind is right, it seems to get to be a rythm and a regular ball maker for me. It all happens very fast, but distinctive within my senses at the time.

You and I grip differently to start with. I can feel all of the butt of the cue with the forefinger and the thumb and increase pressure during stroke rather than loosen. I respect your way, don't get me wrong, I just learned differently. Our differences may lend to my answer as to what I am seeing in my personal stroke style. Thanks...sid

Tom_In_Cincy
12-07-2004, 07:09 PM
Sid,
I don't know if this is the same as your new found 'hit' feel from your change in stoke, but, I kinda understand what you're saying.
I recently started seeing and feeling the 'hit spot' on the cue ball. I have been using much less distance from center hits than I ever have, and getting the same or increased results.

I saw this shot made in a tournament and asked the shooter to explain it after the tournament was over.

Neither of the balls were frozen on the rail. But they were very close to the rail. One Eighth of an inch or less.

START(
%Ar6G6%ID2G8%Pr6L2%WM1Y5%Xo8C8%Yp3D4%Zr5H2%[r4I3%\r6L0%eB2a1

)END
WEI Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html)

The hit is just a half tip above center and a half tip of left side.

It is not all that difficult to make the shot and get shape on the next ball. But, I noticed this shot made me concentrate on execution (of a better stroke) more than I have done in the past.

Eye opener for me, to say the least.

woody_968
12-07-2004, 08:10 PM
Sid, without watching you in action its hard to make a call on this one. But from the picture your description puts in my mind I would have to say proceed with extreme caution /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

It sounds like a poke stroke with a follow through, Im sure this isnt what you are doing as you know better, but thats what it sounds like.

A couple of things could be at work here, and Tom has mentioned them.

1. You could be concentrating a little more accurately on the point you are going to hit the cueball. This is a good thing IMO and could improve your play if you had been sloppy in positioning your tip on the cueball.

2. While I have always been under the assumption that we should never think about stroke while hitting the cueball I have since had discussions that may tend to make me think otherwise. I am not saying to think about stroke mechanics during the shot, this is disaster IMO. But thinking about delivering a good stroke and evaluating the stroke after the shot is hit, instead of thinking about the importance of the shot or how to make it, could be what you are experiencing. It may keep you from trying to guide the cue or any number of other things that can come up when we try to "steer" the object ball into the pocket.

I may be way off base here, just some food for thought.

Woody

Rod
12-08-2004, 09:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It's like the tip hits, hesitates for a small part of a second(a long millisecond maybe), whitie leaves and this is when I "make" the follow through straight toward the mark. <hr /></blockquote>

Well in fact that is what actually happens. Your senses woke up a little to much possibly but it will become second nature. I suppose it's something I don't give much thought.


[ QUOTE ]
You and I grip differently to start with. I can feel all of the butt of the cue with the forefinger and the thumb and increase pressure during stroke rather than loosen. <hr /></blockquote>

We don't grip all that different. I hold the cue with my first three fingers and the ring finger has light contact. The big difference is, I might start out with a little more pressure, if any, and with correct timing it gets lighter. That is if I'm playing well. If I increase pressure my game isn't very good because then I feel like I'm steering the cue.

I really want as little change as possible during that sequence. Ideally I'd like impact to be with the same pressure I use at the start of the backswing.

Rod

TennesseeJoe
12-14-2004, 10:16 AM
Sid,
I think I found that magic touch years ago. It is hard to find believers. Not many players are able to accelerate through the ball so the cue tip maintains contact with the ball for that fraction of a second longer. That added time of contact gives more friction between the tip and the CB and thus reduces the amount of squirt. Even if you only increase the contact time from .001 to .002 of a second, it is still double the amount of contact time and thus double the amount of friction.

Tennessee Joe

"Man can neither love nor hate what he does not know." Cicero,from The Eternal Lawyer.

Deeman2
12-14-2004, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> Sid,
I think I found that magic touch years ago. It is hard to find believers. Not many players are able to accelerate through the ball so the cue tip maintains contact with the ball for that fraction of a second longer. That added time of contact gives more friction between the tip and the CB and thus reduces the amount of squirt. Even if you only increase the contact time from .001 to .002 of a second, it is still double the amount of contact time and thus double the amount of friction.

Tennessee Joe

"Man can neither love nor hate what he does not know." Cicero,from The Eternal Lawyer. <hr /></blockquote>

Tennessee Joe,

I know you can't really accelerate through the cue ball, but as an expression, it perfectly describes the way I try to hit each shot. The image of cresendo or acceleration is the key, IMO. I don't believe it reduced squirt to any great degree nor that it increased friction anywhere near double but it does help and lets us impart more spin when needed. Rod's point or going less off center is what it allows me to do. GO VOLS! </font color>

Fred Agnir
12-14-2004, 11:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> Even if you only increase the contact time from .001 to .002 of a second, it is still double the amount of contact time and thus double the amount of friction.<hr /></blockquote>Even if you could double the time, why would doubling the time mean doubling the friction? And why do you think increasing the friction decreases the squirt?

Fred

TennesseeJoe
12-14-2004, 05:08 PM
Deemnan2 and Fred Angir,
With greatest appreciation I have received your responses---usually it is only the pretty girls who write back with a request to respond. However with respect I repy:

My statement "follow through the cue ball" was only used as a phrase indigenous to pool buffs. While you cannot follow through (into) the ball, you can accelerate the cue while in the process of contacting the cue ball. Since the cue stick is heavier than the cue ball the tip can stay in contact with the ball longer before it rebounds away. Think of a drunk driver in a car hitting a pool hall bum as he leaves a pool hall. If the car is accelerating while hitting the bum, the contact will be for a longer period of time. If the car is slowing in the process the contact time will be shorter. Remember the car is heavier than the person.

The contact time X the contact area (cue tip/cue ball) X the co-efficient of friction = total friction.

While once again I took literary license in saying that double the contact time is double the friction--I still stand by my premise that the total friction will significantly increase.

And why is this important to me---Squirt is caused by the absence of adequate friction.

By the way--ladies usually have a better touch in pool and understand this concept better than the all powerful men.

Any ladies care to respond? With respect,

Tennessee Joe

Bob_Jewett
12-14-2004, 05:59 PM
quoting TennesseeJoe :
&gt; ... Since the cue stick is heavier than the cue ball
&gt; the tip can stay in contact with the ball longer
&gt; before it rebounds away.

While acceleration of the stick during contact is possible, in fact it has only a very minor effect due to the relative softness of the hand compared to the tip. And the acceleration -- assuming you hit the ball at maximum acceleration -- can make the stick effectively heavier, and the time of contact can be increased by perhaps 1%. You can get an increase in contact time much more easily by using a softer tip, which might increase the contact time by 50%. But I think that's the wrong thing to do, for reasons I've explained before.

&gt; The contact time X the contact area (cue tip/cue ball)
&gt; X the co-efficient of friction = total friction.

This makes no sense physically. It's like saying the color of your house times its height gives your street number. If you want to study this sort of thing, you may want to get a text book that discusses friction.

&gt; I still stand by my premise that the total friction
&gt; will significantly increase.

Friction is a force. Provided that slipping does not occur, (and the surfaces don't melt) the area is not important. This idea is absolutely standard in the study of friction.

&gt; And why is this important to me---Squirt is caused
&gt; by the absence of adequate friction.

As squirt is understood right now, that statement is completely false. Ron Shepard's paper on pool physics points out that the tip-ball coefficient of friction is not a factor in the shot up to the point that a miscue occurs. In fact, this principle is absolutely necessary for side spin to be useable.

&gt; By the way--ladies usually have a better touch in pool
&gt; and understand this concept better than the all powerful men.

This is one of the most remarkable statements I've seen in a while.

If you want the best speed accuracy, the best time in your stroke for the tip to hit the ball is at the peak of speed, which is at zero acceleration. Of course, most people don't understand the technical definition of acceleration and confuse it with speed. Similarly, Joe, you seem to have confused friction with something else.

TennesseeJoe
12-15-2004, 08:58 AM
Mr Jewitt,

Thanks for your reply. It is obvious that you have a more technical background than I and I appreciate your thoughts. I have just a couple more thoughts if you have the time?

1. "Friction is a force. Provided that slipping does not occur, (and the surfaces don't melt) the area is not important. This idea is absolutely standard in the study of friction."

If area is not important--Why do dragsters have tires with a large footprint?

2. "and the time of contact can be increased by perhaps 1%. "

If the contact time can be increased from .001 to .002 seconds--- Wouldn't that be a 100% increase?

3."the best time in your stroke for the tip to hit the ball is at the peak of speed, which is at zero acceleration"

Why is difficult to to draw the cueball 2 rails if I use a punch stroke but easy if I follow through?

Mr. Jewitt, I ask these questions with all due respect and only wish to improve my game.

Thanks again,

Tennessee Joe

Bob_Jewett
12-15-2004, 10:49 AM
quoting TennesseeJoe:

&gt; Mr Jewitt,

That's not how I spell my name.

&gt; If area is not important--Why do dragsters have tires
&gt; with a large footprint?

Because slipping does occur. Static friction is a very different phenomenon from sliding friction. Aslo, I've heard that there are important dynamic and thermal effects in dragster tire design that have nothing to do with what happens to a cue stick hitting a cue ball.

&gt; 2. "and the time of contact can be increased by perhaps 1%. "
&gt;
&gt; If the contact time can be increased from .001 to .002
&gt; seconds--- Wouldn't that be a 100% increase?

The contact time cannot be increased that much by accelerating the cue stick at contact, which was the point being discussed. Your arithmetic is correct but it does not pertain to acceleration of the cue stick at impact.

&gt; 3."the best time in your stroke for the tip to hit
&gt; the ball is at the peak of speed, which is at zero
&gt; acceleration"

&gt; Why is difficult to to draw the cueball 2 rails if
&gt; I use a punch stroke but easy if I follow through?

Probably because with your punch stroke you are already slowing the cue stick down before it hits the ball, but without seeing the shot, it's hard to diagnose.

Fred Agnir
12-15-2004, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> The contact time X the contact area (cue tip/cue ball) X the co-efficient of friction = total friction. <hr /></blockquote>This isn't even a physical formula. Did you invent this?

[ QUOTE ]
While once again I took literary license in saying that double the contact time is double the friction--I still stand by my premise that the total friction will significantly increase.

And why is this important to me---Squirt is caused by the absence of adequate friction.<hr /></blockquote>No, it's not. A miscue is caused by the absence of adequate friction. Squirt is not related. There is no slipping between the tip and ball during the collision with adequate chalk. There might be rolling, but not slipping. Squirt can be modeled like any collision. Using mass and velocity. Not time, friction, or pretty ladies.

Fred

Fred Agnir
12-15-2004, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> Mr Jewitt,

Thanks for your reply. It is obvious that you have a more technical background than I and I appreciate your thoughts. I have just a couple more thoughts if you have the time?

1. "Friction is a force. Provided that slipping does not occur, (and the surfaces don't melt) the area is not important. This idea is absolutely standard in the study of friction."
If area is not important--Why do dragsters have tires with a large footprint? <hr /></blockquote> I'm not Mr. Jewett or Mr Jewitt, but... you can't compare dragsters to cueball/tip interaction. Dragsters have slippage (sliding). The normal cueball/tip collision does not.

[ QUOTE ]
2. "and the time of contact can be increased by perhaps 1%. "

If the contact time can be increased from .001 to .002 seconds--- Wouldn't that be a 100% increase?<hr /></blockquote> Yes (with softer tip), but what effect does it have? Certainly not your time x contact area x CoF formula.

[ QUOTE ]
3."the best time in your stroke for the tip to hit the ball is at the peak of speed, which is at zero acceleration"

Why is difficult to to draw the cueball 2 rails if I use a punch stroke but easy if I follow through?<hr /></blockquote> Because you don't slow down your stroke on a good follow through? It's about speed, not acceleration. A smooth follow through allows you to get to a good speed in a controlled manner.

Fred