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bluey2king
12-09-2004, 11:43 AM
Hello and Thanks in advance.
Do you have tips for aiming while using left and right english? I use top and bottom unless coached otherwise. Practicing and shooting for shape using left and right with a combination of top and bottom I find that I miss the shot a lot. Is there a drill that will help me get the feel of where to aim at the OB? I suppose this changes with the amount of english applied?
Thanks again

DialUp
12-09-2004, 11:56 AM
outside english = hit the OB fuller

inside english = hit the OB thinner


Side spin will throw the OB off its intended path. Giving the CB left spin will make the OB go to the right and right spin will make it go to the left.


I usually pocket most ball with outside english if position will allow it. It lets me hit the ball a little bit fuller and I can spin em in...

Bob_Jewett
12-09-2004, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr>... Do you have tips for aiming while using left and right english?... <hr /></blockquote>
You have noticed that somehow the aim is different for shots that use sidespin. It is going to take a lot of practice to learn to use side spin. To speed your practice, you should be aware of the three major things that happen on english shots that each can cause you to miss the shot:

Squirt --- (sometimes incorrectly called deflection) the cue ball does not leave the tip along the expected line, but instead moves at an angle away from the side the tip hit the ball on. Left english will make the cue ball squirt to the right.

Swerve --- the cue ball with side spin will curve on its way to the object ball. This effect is opposite to the effect of squirt and can be larger than squirt.

Throw --- the surfaces of the balls are slightly sticky, and the spin on the cue ball can grab the object ball a little and drag it off-line. This effect may be larger or smaller than squirt or swerve.

There are lots of other details involved in using side spin -- the above are just the major points you have to include (preferably subconsciously) on all shots. There is a way to compensate for squirt called the aim-and-pivot method, but it works well on only a limited class of shots. It's also called backhand english.
__________________

Fred Agnir
12-09-2004, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DialUp:</font><hr> outside english = hit the OB fuller

inside english = hit the OB thinner

Side spin will throw the OB
<hr /></blockquote>IMO, for most people, limiting your compensation based on throw will stymie progress. A good clue that this might be happening is if you find yourself saying:

[ QUOTE ]
usually pocket most ball with outside english if position will allow it. <hr /></blockquote>

Without getting into the nutz of it, I break it down to one simple (okay, not so simple) question:

Should this particular shot with the speed and distance that I'm going to shoot it require me to compensate for squirt, swerve, or neither?

In general the firmer shots and/or the shots where the cue is dead level (like stretched out shot that the cue stick isn't over a rail), then I compensate for squirt only (fatter for inside english, thinner for outside english).

If it's a softer shot or a long distance (distance between the cueball and object ball), I compensate for swerve only (thinner for inside english, fatter for outside english).

The "neither" choice is when the squirt and swerve cancel each other out to a degree that I can aim without compensating.

Fred &lt;~~~ didn't mention "throw"

Rod
12-09-2004, 02:24 PM
One thing you will need, other that learning how to compensate with english, is a good stroke. It is essential to hit where your aiming on the c/b.

When you miss a shot, it could be you didn't aim or compensate correctly. On the other hand you may not have hit the c/b where intended and at the correct speed. I'll vote for the latter since I see it all the time. This effect is a big variable when you get into swerve as mentioned in other posts.

I'd suggest shooting position shots from short and medium distances in the beginning. You can shoot longer shots but you may not be near accurate enough, which can lead to frustration. Shoot 10 short ones, then 10 from a medium distance.

Whether you use follow or draw with side english, your goal should be near the same c/b reaction and path each time. Be sure to mark the c/b and o/b position for correct feedback. Many just throw balls up there expecting the same reaction but if it's off very much it won't happen.

The last Item I'd include is a Jim Rempe training cue ball. You can position it each time so you know where you hit the c/b by the chalk mark left behind on each shot. If you hit the ball exact but didn't get the reaction wanted then speed was most likely the problem. Other stroke variables may come into play but that is why people write books or instructional videos.

Rod

Ross
12-09-2004, 03:21 PM
As others pointed out, when you use side english the ultimate path of the cb is affected by squirt, swerve, and throw. And the degree to which each of these affects your shot depends on the speed of the shot, the distance between the cb and ob, and the distance between the ob and the pocket. Oh yeah, also the speed of the cloth.

SO, this is a bit much to calculate when shooting. So you need to learn to allow for these things unconsciously.

A good drill that someone suggested for this (with a slight modification by me):

Shoot a few racks (without regard to the order of the balls) using medium right english and medium speed on every shot, then a few using medium right with firm speed, then a few with soft speed. Don't worry about position - just let your brain/body learn how to pocket the balls under each of these conditions.

Then repeat the series with medium left, high right, high left, low right, low left.

Finally repeat everything again this time using more extreme english.

Also note which types of shots you miss more consistently and whether you tend to overcut or undercut them, so you can correct that.

After a (long) while, your brain/body will just "see" the proper aiming line for a particular english and speed.

JohnnyP
12-09-2004, 09:43 PM
king:

Do you understand the inside/outside terminology?

This diagram shows two possible cue ball paths, resulting from outside (low left in this case), or inside (high right in this case).

Copy the code, then click on the link below and paste into the box to see the diagram.

START(
%Ai7F4%BL7P7%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%P^1M0%[r3D1%\j3F2%]h4G1%^^8L7
%eB3a4%_q1J8%`j4C4%ah9F4%bY0I6%ca6C4%di1F5
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

If you hit it firmly with outside, you will have to aim so it looks like you are going to over cut it. Since you are striking the cue ball on the left side, the stick tends to push the CB slightly off the intended path, a couple of degrees to the right. Unless you compensate, you will drive the object ball right into the rail. In this case, deflection trumps throw. Spin ain't gonna save you.

If you hit it low and slow with outside, you will have to aim so that it looks like you're going to under cut it. This is due primarily to swerve, and somewhat to throw.

There is a middle ground where all these effects magically cancel each other, but it's hard to get there.

The effects of inside are the same, but in the opposite direction. In the shot diagrammed, with inside (right in this case), you will have to aim so that it looks like you are going to undercut the ball. When the stick applies right spin, it forces the CB to veer slightly left.

stickman
12-09-2004, 10:05 PM
The english shots you miss: Try shooting them by aiming the righthand english shots at the right side of the intended pocket, the left side of the pocket with lefthand english. This is a over simplified answer, but will give you a starting point. There are many variables to be considered. Practice will teach you the amount you need to adjust for these shots. Experience is a great teacher. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif In time, you will compensate automatically.

stickman
12-09-2004, 10:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> There is a way to compensate for squirt called the aim-and-pivot method, but it works well on only a limited class of shots. It's also called backhand english.
__________________ <hr /></blockquote>

I have to use a longer than usual bridge for it work, and it is only useful for certain situations for me.

1Time
12-11-2004, 01:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr>Do you have tips for aiming while using left and right english? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, please see my thread titled "A "Vastly" Superior Sighting Technique". I suggest trying it before toying with the use of English. The sighting technique I refer to will give you a solid foundation from which you may build your stroke and incorporate the use of English.

I often use English to assist with movement of the cue ball: after it impacts an object ball, and during the cue ball's path to the object ball, and/or to control the cue ball's reaction off of a rail.

However, I also use the push and swerve of the cue ball that results when hitting it to the left or right of center to assist with moving the cue ball off the imagined aiming line and away from the imagined contact point on the object ball to get the cue ball to impact the object ball at the "required" contact point.

Depending on the shot I may stoke the cue ball with English while aiming along the imagined line to the imagined point of contact and use the push of the cue ball or perhaps the push and swerve of the cue ball to get it to move away from the imagined line and the imagined point of contact so the cue ball impacts the "required" point of contact. This "required" point of contact is further from the imagined point of contact on the object ball as the angle to the pocket increases. Also the varying distances between the cue ball and object ball on various shots further complicates the use of English for this purpose. Have fun!

dr_dave
12-12-2004, 01:31 PM
The online video demonstrations at:
www.engr.colostate.edu/pool/normal_videos (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html)

might help you understand some of the effects you need to take into consideration (deflection/squirt, curve/swerve, throw). Specifically, NV 4.10-4.17, 7.12, and A.17 might be of particular interest.

dr_dave
12-12-2004, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DialUp:</font><hr>I usually pocket most ball with outside english if position will allow it. It lets me hit the ball a little bit fuller and I can spin em in...<hr /></blockquote>

I think it is wise to not use English unless it is absolutely required. Deflection, curve, and throw create lots of variables that can make you miss shots.

On cut shots, where the object ball can be thrown off path a little (see NV NV 4.16 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV4-16.htm)), an alternative to using outside English is to adjust your aim slightly.

dr_dave
12-12-2004, 01:41 PM
The discussion thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=168242&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=3#Post169129) dealing with the effect of speed on squirt may be of interest to you.

Chris Cass
12-12-2004, 03:32 PM
Hi,

Don't know what to say. I've shot with english all my life on most every shot. I've learned through experience to do this from the far left to the far right of the cb. There is compensation for it no doubt but I also shoot some shots without appling english and what it comes down to is you do what you need to in order to get on the next shot. Sometimes I've been forced to shoot with english because of lack of cb sight. I might move into a soft masse if I have to.

I never really studied where to hit it but more or less by trial and error. I'm over all much more versatial by it. Speed has a lot to do with the amounts of english you may have to apply too. Cb speed I mean and the distances of what's needed to complete the shot.

I wish you luck bro.

C.C.

nhp
12-12-2004, 04:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> Hello and Thanks in advance.
Do you have tips for aiming while using left and right english? I use top and bottom unless coached otherwise. Practicing and shooting for shape using left and right with a combination of top and bottom I find that I miss the shot a lot. Is there a drill that will help me get the feel of where to aim at the OB? I suppose this changes with the amount of english applied?
Thanks again <hr /></blockquote>

No matter what anyone tells you about certain methods, the only way to accurately make balls with sidespin is to spend alot of time on the table, using sidespin. Every cue hits different, and when you use sidespin, for nearly every cue you have to make a certain adjustment, and there is no exact amount. You just have to practice alot until knowing how to aim with sidespin is second nature. There is no 'quick fix' to suddenly start playing pool alot better, but you can practice every day all day for months and years, and stay the same, and one day your game will jump up like crazy. That is possible, but again, you have to spend alot of time on the table, there is no way around it.

One
12-13-2004, 03:37 PM
The best tip: LEARN PHYSICS.

You can use any combination of spin and speed if you know physics.