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mworkman
12-09-2004, 06:51 PM
I'm a league player that plays on a 7' table. I have a OS 8' in my home. Would I be better off getting a valley table for my house so I would be shooting on the same size that I compete on? Just wondering.. I know the bigger table should improve my shooting the long shots. And the smaller table makes you deal with all the clutter. Does someone have some personal experience with this?

Thanks, Mark

woody_968
12-09-2004, 07:01 PM
I have a 9 footer at home, and play most of my pool out of the house on 9 footers. But when I go to a bar and play on 7' tables it feels like I am playing kiddie pool /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Not saying this is bad, or trying to put bar tables down, so dont take it like that. What I mean is when you get used to playing on a big table and then go to a bar table you never feel like you have a long shot!

There are things that you have to get used to on a bar table. But for the most part IMO it is much easier to go from a big table to a bar table instead of the other way around.

If you get to where you play well on a big table it will improve your bar table play.

Just my .02

Woody

DialUp
12-09-2004, 07:05 PM
You will get different opinions on this subject. My opinion is to ALWAYS get the bigger table. I have had a 7 foot and a 9 foot. The seven was MUCH easier to run out on and it even had tighter pockets. The shorter shots are just to easy IMO.

When I used to play in bar tournaments, I would go to a pool hall and shoot on nines. Then go to the bar box and whip some ass /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif After playing on a tighter pocket nine, the big pocket seven just felt like a toy.

JDB
12-09-2004, 08:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> I'm a league player that plays on a 7' table. I have a OS 8' in my home. Would I be better off getting a valley table for my house so I would be shooting on the same size that I compete on? Just wondering.. I know the bigger table should improve my shooting the long shots. And the smaller table makes you deal with all the clutter. Does someone have some personal experience with this?

Thanks, Mark <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with Dialup and Woody... I have some experience with his as well... When I started league I was a strong APA 5 in 8 ball and a 6 in 9-ball... I purchased a 9 foot table to practice on and immediately jumped to a 6 in 8-ball and a 7 in 9-ball and soon went to an 8 in 9-ball.

I think there is a huge advantage of practicing on bigger tables... So much that I still wrestle with the thought of buying a 10 foot table... If I could guarantee the same results I had from a 9 to a 7 foot table, I would have purchased already...

Just my thoughts....

Bassn7
12-09-2004, 10:33 PM
Do football players practice on 200 yard playing fields to get ready for a game? Do basketball players use a 15 foot rim to get ready for a 10 foot height game? NO! If you're going to play league pool, buy a 7 footer for your house. If you're going to play 9 ball on the big boy, get a 9 footer for the house. The shots, the strategy and the mind's need for repetative accuracy require that a person practice on the same equipment you're going to be playing on in a match. You don't see too many 9 foot table players challenging Dave Matlock to a bar box match . . . I wonder why?

JDB
12-10-2004, 01:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> Do football players practice on 200 yard playing fields to get ready for a game? Do basketball players use a 15 foot rim to get ready for a 10 foot height game? NO! If you're going to play league pool, buy a 7 footer for your house. If you're going to play 9 ball on the big boy, get a 9 footer for the house. The shots, the strategy and the mind's need for repetative accuracy require that a person practice on the same equipment you're going to be playing on in a match. You don't see too many 9 foot table players challenging Dave Matlock to a bar box match . . . I wonder why? <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think your analogies make much sense...

First, football, the primary goal is to make a first down, which is 10 yards, whether your ultimate goal (touchdown) is 100 yards away or 200 yards away.

Basketball - I don't get the comparison at all of a higher basket... maybe somebody else can explain.

Pool - you are right in some instances; however, for most amatuer players (based on my experience) the problems are due to the length of table. If you can get more comfortable with long shots on 9 foot tables, going to 7 foot tables becomes easy... This is why practicing on a 9 foot table is advantageous to people who play on 7-foot tables.

I agree that if someone has no problem with longer shots, practicing on a 9 foot table may not help as much; however, in my experience that is the number one problem.

Deeman2
12-10-2004, 06:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> You don't see too many 9 foot table players challenging Dave Matlock to a bar box match . . . I wonder why? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Actually, this is not true. Many professional players both challenge and beat David on small tables every year. While David has long been considered the best bar box player, he does not run away with every short table tournament as he would if he was that much better on a bar box. Why doesn't he win JOB's every year? I think this used to be true but not in quite a few years. Maybe it's because the other players play a lot on big tables, maybe for other reasons. By the way, David does play pretty darn well on a nine footer as well.

Deeman </font color>

Fred Agnir
12-10-2004, 07:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr>
There are things that you have to get used to on a bar table. But for the most part IMO it is much easier to go from a big table to a bar table instead of the other way around.<hr /></blockquote> This is a general response, not aimed at anyone in particular. I've got a lot to say on this subject, and a lot of people simply won't agree with me.

I don't like to blow smoke about my game, because compared to pros and A players, I'm a zilcho. But, I'm a league player, and have been playing leagues longer than 99% of league players. I also spent and have spent a considerable amount of time playing 7' bar table tournaments and 9' pool hall tournaments.

That being said, anyone who says that going from a 9' to a 7' table is easier than the reverse, IMO, doesn't have enough experience at both. That is, I think there must be a lack of appreciation or a lack of exposure to great bar pool to be able to just blanketly say that going from a 9' to a 7' is easier.

Try a real world experience by practicing on a 9' exclusively and then go to a 7' bar table 8-ball tournament. And not some patsy hack tournament, but where everyone can B&amp;R. Tell me the first time you blow position and watch them runout how easy it was to go to a 7' table.

The position patterns and clusters are different enough on both 7' and 9' that to simply say that it's easier to go to one from another is, IMNSHO, extremely short-sighted.

The great Luther Lassiter reportedly practiced on an 8' table in order tune up for tournament on bigger tables. To paraphrase, his reasoning was to "get his cueball." That is, he understood the importance of precise cueball patterns demanded by a smaller table. That idea held true then, and it holds true now.

All that being said, if I had the room, I'd get a 9' table. I find a bigger table more fun. Because... it's easier to run racks.

Fred

opposedtwin2
12-10-2004, 09:15 AM
My suggestion is present the question to Keith McCready whose reputation on a bar box is legendary and get a known professionals opinion.

JDB
12-10-2004, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JDB:</font><hr>
Basketball - I don't get the comparison at all of a higher basket... maybe somebody else can explain
<hr /></blockquote>

After thinking about basketball, I think a good analogy would be Free Throws... Why don't pro's practice free throws from a longer distance... IMO this would be very similar.

JDB
12-10-2004, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
That being said, anyone who says that going from a 9' to a 7' table is easier than the reverse, IMO, doesn't have enough experience at both. That is, I think there must be a lack of appreciation or a lack of exposure to great bar pool to be able to just blanketly say that going from a 9' to a 7' is easier.
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

For pool, at a very high level, I agree with you. However, for an amateur (league player) I think it does help. Or at least I have seen it help quite a few league players in the past.

bsmutz
12-10-2004, 11:55 AM
I have to agree with Fred. At a lower level, the 9' will give you confidence on the smaller tables for long shots and learning what will go, but when it comes to pulling perfect shape, controlling the heavy cue, and being able to run out every time, it just doesn't completely prepare you for the smaller tables.

dingle
12-10-2004, 12:05 PM
Come on now. Let's think about a tournament like say the BCA 8-Ball championships. How many of the top finishers in the singles events, or even team for that matter, spend the majority of their time playing on 7' tables? Well, in my opinion, the answer is almost zero.

I've had a 9 foot table for about a month now and my game has greatly improved on the 8' tables we use in league, especially on long shots.

Buy a 9' table, but spend a little more time warming up before league to adjust to the 7'.

Wally_in_Cincy
12-10-2004, 12:33 PM
Can we agree that it is advantageous to know how to play on all size tables, just as you need to know how to play different games to be a well-rounded player?

Having said that I will disagree with you a bit Fred. I think it is easier to go from large to small in at least one respect-the long shots are easier. And that is a large part of the game.

JDB
12-10-2004, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
All that being said, if I had the room, I'd get a 9' table. I find a bigger table more fun. Because... it's easier to run racks.
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I think this may be true in 8-ball but this is not even close to true in 9-ball, at least for me anyway.

JDB
12-10-2004, 02:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> when it comes to... controlling the heavy cue... it just doesn't completely prepare you for the smaller tables. <hr /></blockquote>

I think the heavy cue balls are a thing of the past, at least in the places I play... I have only run into the heavy cue ball a couple of times in the past several years (through league play). The only places I see these are the real dives that I would not play in anyway, unless it was for league. Certainly not for a tournament.

SecaucusFats
12-10-2004, 03:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JDB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> when it comes to... controlling the heavy cue... it just doesn't completely prepare you for the smaller tables. <hr /></blockquote>

I think the heavy cue balls are a thing of the past, at least in the places I play... I have only run into the heavy cue ball a couple of times in the past several years (through league play). The only places I see these are the real dives that I would not play in anyway, unless it was for league. Certainly not for a tournament. <hr /></blockquote>

To my knowledge (and I may be wrong), the only bar tables out there that utilize a regular cueball are the Diamond Smart Tables, and the Gabriels Bar Tables. Every other manufacturer uses either a.) larger, or b.)heavier (plugged / magnetic) cueball, in order for the cueball return mechanism to work. IMO, this size / weight difference is the one that requires the most adjustment. Therefore, it seems to me that it would be advantageous to purchase bar table cueballs of the type you are likely to encounter in your neck of the woods and practice with those at home (regardless of what size table you own) if you primarily shoot in bar leagues.

I'm curious as to what others have to say about this.

SF

dingle
12-10-2004, 03:34 PM
I agree and I do have several different cue balls I practice with at home. I don't really know if it makes a difference or not.

Rod
12-10-2004, 04:22 PM
I surely don't see a need for a change. Why buy another table just so you'll be playing on the same? Fact is even if you bought a 7 footer it will most likely play different. Conditions, rail speed, cloth, c/b all make up how any table plays. If you were considering doing such you better get out and find out exactly what you play on in league. Otherwise why bother.

I've played all my life on different sized tables. 12 footers, 10 footers, 9 footers 7 footers and 6 footers. That's a lot of feet. LOL It's bunk to think you need the same table. During my prime my best games was on 12, 9, and 7 foot tables.

There is something to be said for being an all around, rounded player. That may not be your intention but that's ok. You have a table, it works to play and warm up on. If you play a fair amount on a 7 footer it won't make any difference.

The only problem I see with table size is if you stick to one size only. You seriously limit your capabilities on a larger table if that is any concern.

Now my game is equal on both 9 foot and 7 foot tables. I wouldn't give an advantage either way. Now if I was playing 14-1 or one pocket, those are big table games. For 8 ball and 9 ball, doesn't make any difference to me. I almost always warm up on a 9 footer even before a tournament. When I played league I still warmed up on a 9 footer. I always got there early though, then played a few minutes to adjust for table conditions.

Rod

bsmutz
12-10-2004, 04:44 PM
It does make sense to me to purchase a heavy cue ball to practice with. I've only been playing in league for a few months and have seen a wide variety of cue balls. Some teams break out a good set of balls for the match, but you still have to warm up with the heavy one. One bar that I've played in quite a few times has some of the worst equipment I've ever had to play with. The cue balls have divots in them around the area where the plug has been put in. One of the cue balls is noticeably smaller than the rest of the balls (worn down) and has worn so irregularly that you can hear it rattling down the table when you shoot, hitting bumps in the ball as it goes. It's very hard to get any draw and when you try to hit a ball against the rail and kick the cue ball over to the opposite rail, you're lucky if it doesn't go back and forth across table 3 or 4 times. I prefer to play on good tables with evenly matched balls, so that's how I practice most often. However, in order to do my best during league play, I find I'm having to practice for these situations also. Last night I had this leave for my last ball (the 13) and was so afraid I was going to scratch in the opposite corner when coming back across for the 8, that I shot way too soft and ended up stopping even with it.
START(%Bq3U0%Hr6Q7%Mp7Y1%Pn7T6)END
It's not about missing shots, it's all about getting shape. Personally, I think you are going to improve your game no matter what size pool table you get, just from the increased amount of practice. I don't think practicing on a 7' or 8' table is going to prepare you fully for action on a 9' or 10' table due to the longer shots. But, as I stated before, a larger table doesn't fully prepare you for a smaller table either. To be a well rounded player on all tables requires practice on all tables. I'm sure most of us can attest to the fact that any table can throw you a curve once in a while, no matter how good you are. I played in a bar one night where all of the tables sloped downhill on one end. You had to shoot hard uphill and soft downhill. Plus you had to take into account the little curve at the end when shooting uphill. We didn't stay there very long!

Cane
12-10-2004, 04:57 PM
I practice on 7's, 8's and 9's. I play just as well on any one as I do on the other, not saying that's great, but it's consistent from one size table to the other.

As far as pocketting balls, IMHO, length of a shot makes no difference. If you're aiming well for center pocket, then you'll hit center pocket if the shot is 2' long or 12' long. I don't find longer shots on a 9' table any more difficult than a "long" shot on a 7' table... after all, if you think about it, a 9' table is really not that much longer than a 7' table (talking about the actual playing surface). Now, if you rattle out a lot of balls on a 7'er, then you're going to rattle out a lot more on a 9'er, because, even with only those few inches of difference, your margin of error for your contact point (CB to OB) is smaller, but if you shoot accurately, rather precisely for center pocket, then you'll make the balls regardless of the length of the table.

In any case, my point is that it doesn't hurt to practice on every size table and every different cloth you can. It can't do anything but make your game more well rounded... besides, a lot of the regional pro tours these days, like the Midwest 9-Ball Tour, are played on Bar Boxes, so practicing and learning to manage your game on all size tables becomes very important if you're serious about tournament play.

Later,
Bob

Rod
12-10-2004, 05:55 PM
Well I think your right about the cue balls. Valley tables, being the most common have a heavier/magnetic ball. I suppose one could practice with a heavier ball on a big table. Draw won't react the same at long distance. Most players don't have the stroke so I'm not so sure in this is a good idea. Follow of course is somewhat the same so it won't make as much difference.

I use to give a guy a real healthy spot on a big table. We played with the Dynamo Red Dot. Now that is a heavy ball. It really makes a difference but far less for me than him. He was sure to make a position mistake where, for him, running out might take a miracle. The same shot on a bar box he had a chance.

Rod

SPetty
12-10-2004, 07:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> Every other manufacturer uses either a.) larger, or b.)heavier (plugged / magnetic) cueball, in order for the cueball return mechanism to work.<hr /></blockquote>But don't forget the Aramith magnetic cue ball that came out a few years ago. The metal is flakes embedded evenly all around, and I don't think it's heavier. It was supposed to be more close to "normal" acting than the old heavy plugged ball.

wolfsburg2
12-10-2004, 10:02 PM
i am an 8-ball apa5 with about 2 years league experience and 4-5 years pool experience in total. hwen i was on a 4 on 3 off work schedule i played 3-5 times a week on the tigh pocket 9" tables at my local hall. when i went to league and played on the 7 footers it was a great step for me. confidence wise, no shot was too long, and position was so much easier due to the ability to cheat the pocket soo much. the thing i did struggle with was rail and cloth quality, but my confidence with the actual shotmaking made up for it imo, in that i could shoot with much greater spped, with accuracy due to being aclimated to a very fast but unforgiving 9".

SecaucusFats
12-10-2004, 10:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> Every other manufacturer uses either a.) larger, or b.)heavier (plugged / magnetic) cueball, in order for the cueball return mechanism to work.<hr /></blockquote>But don't forget the Aramith magnetic cue ball that came out a few years ago. The metal is flakes embedded evenly all around, and I don't think it's heavier. It was supposed to be more close to "normal" acting than the old heavy plugged ball. <hr /></blockquote>

Oh yes, thanks for reminding me about that one.

A local bar has one of those. I must admit that I don't like that cueball (if only for aesthetic reasons) It never looks clean even after it has been cleaned with dishwashing liquid and polished with Aramith ball polish using the Aramith microfiber polishing cloth. Another bad thing is that it acts like a chalk magnet and develops an ugly mottled look from all the chalk marks within the time it takes to play one rack of eight ball.

I'm not sure if it's the same weight as the object balls. I think I'll take my digital postal scale to the bar and weigh the cue ball versus an object ball. I'll post the results.

SF

JDB
12-10-2004, 11:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> To my knowledge (and I may be wrong), the only bar tables out there that utilize a regular cueball are the Diamond Smart Tables, and the Gabriels Bar Tables. Every other manufacturer uses either a.) larger, or b.)heavier (plugged / magnetic) cueball, in order for the cueball return mechanism to work. <hr /></blockquote>
Sorry, I may have oversimplified things in my response... I was talking about the huge cueball, commonly referred to as a "mud ball." I know there are several different types of cue balls for bar tables, but I don't have a problem with any of them... The only one I ever had a problem with is the oversized one, which I rarely see anymore... Sorry for the confusion.

JDB
12-11-2004, 12:00 AM
I noticed what you were talking about tonight...lol.

I have not changed my opinion for what I have stated, however, I played in a tournament tonight that definitely helped me see your point... I played in an 8 ball tournament on 7 foot tables tonight, the first time I had played 8 ball or on 7 foot tables in a year or so...

I definitely lost some games because I missed position by an inch, more or less... It definitely made a difference for me tonight...

I still stand by my point, that switching from a large table to a small table is easier; however, it is not automatic either... Those few inches can kill you...

SecaucusFats
12-11-2004, 01:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JDB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> To my knowledge (and I may be wrong), the only bar tables out there that utilize a regular cueball are the Diamond Smart Tables, and the Gabriels Bar Tables. Every other manufacturer uses either a.) larger, or b.)heavier (plugged / magnetic) cueball, in order for the cueball return mechanism to work. <hr /></blockquote>
Sorry, I may have oversimplified things in my response... I was talking about the huge cueball, commonly referred to as a "mud ball." I know there are several different types of cue balls for bar tables, but I don't have a problem with any of them... The only one I ever had a problem with is the oversized one, which I rarely see anymore... Sorry for the confusion. <hr /></blockquote>

No harm, no foul. BTW, around here we call the over-size cue ball "Fat Albert" (from the old Cosby Kids cartoon show). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SF

Wally_in_Cincy
12-11-2004, 08:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> But don't forget the Aramith magnetic cue ball that came out a few years ago. The metal is flakes embedded evenly all around, <hr /></blockquote>

A local bar has one of those. I must admit that I don't like that cueball (if only for aesthetic reasons) It never looks clean <hr /></blockquote>

I bought 2 of those for the bar we play in. You are correct they get filthy pretty quickly. But I prefer them because they roll straight, as oposed to the plugged ball, which you never know what it is going to do.

Fred Agnir
12-11-2004, 08:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JDB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> To my knowledge (and I may be wrong), the only bar tables out there that utilize a regular cueball are the Diamond Smart Tables, and the Gabriels Bar Tables. Every other manufacturer uses either a.) larger, or b.)heavier (plugged / magnetic) cueball, in order for the cueball return mechanism to work. <hr /></blockquote>
Sorry, I may have oversimplified things in my response... I was talking about the huge cueball, commonly referred to as a "mud ball." I know there are several different types of cue balls for bar tables, but I don't have a problem with any of them... The only one I ever had a problem with is the oversized one, which I rarely see anymore... Sorry for the confusion. <hr /></blockquote> Both the Aramith Green Logo bar cue ball of recent years and the last Valley magnetic return ball used for over a decade are within BCA limits for weight.

The only Valley magnetic ball that I have is a a couple of thousands under the low limit for diameter. But, it's a used ball. It may have been within limits at one point of it's life.

IMO, it's a shame that all bar boxes out there aren't using one of these two balls, as they've been available for so long. Not all systems can use these balls, but I've modified a couple to use them. Double sided tape and powerful magnet does the trick.

Fred

woody_968
12-11-2004, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
That being said, anyone who says that going from a 9' to a 7' table is easier than the reverse, IMO, doesn't have enough experience at both. That is, I think there must be a lack of appreciation or a lack of exposure to great bar pool to be able to just blanketly say that going from a 9' to a 7' is easier.


Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I understand what you are saying, and I know that position play can be some what different on a bar table than a big table. I still stand on my statement thats its easier to go from the big table to the bar table.

I play most of the time on a big table, but have played many leagues, and most of the tournaments I attend are bar table tournaments.

DavidMorris
12-11-2004, 11:00 AM
FWIW, not to sound like a waffler, but I agree with both sides -- it can be easier AND harder going from a 9' to a 7'.

IMO shot-making is much easier going from a 9' to a 7' table, no question. Distance is shorter and pockets are bigger in proportion to table/rail size. So given the same unobstructed shot on both tables, the smaller table plays easier if you're accustomed to the precision required on the 9 footer.

OTOH position play CAN be more difficult, particularly in full-rack games like 8-ball due to increased clutter.

Obviously both shot-making and position play are crucial to winning (well, with some lucky rolls thrown in there too). If you can nail every shot on a short table but can't position to the next, you're just helping your opponent run out. However, great position play without making the shot is equally useless. The latter is usually my weakness: I pay so much attention to position play and cueball action that I will sometimes flub the shot itself, while getting the EXACT position I was trying for -- it's quite frustrating!

1Time
12-11-2004, 08:42 PM
The game and play of a 7' table is more so contained and expereinced within the game and play of a 9' table than the reverse. This is to say there are differences between the two that require a player to adapt. However, it's far easier for a 9' table player to adapt to a 7' table than the reverse.

I'm sorry but I'm at a complete loss to understand how any experienced player could see this differently. I have 25+ years expereince on 7' tables and 20+ years experience on 9' tables and am equally comfortable competing on either.

However, I easily prefer playing on 9' tables because of the greater challenge and skill level required. Come to think of it I just don't recall the last time I saw ESPN televising championship pool played on a 7' table. &lt;scratches head&gt; Nope, can't say that I've ever seen that.

How about... take 1000 7' table players at random and 1000 9' table players at random and have them compete on 7' and 9' tables. No contest, sorry, not even close.

Popcorn
12-11-2004, 09:07 PM
quote
"Therefore, it seems to me that it would be advantageous to purchase bar table cueballs of the type you are likely to encounter in your neck of the woods and practice with those at home (regardless of what size table you own) if you primarily shoot in bar leagues. "

You are exactly right. I have known some super-duper bar players who when they were practicing at the pool room always carried their own bar balls. It is not just the weight of the ball, if it is one of the bigger balls the whole dynamics are different, even the way it cuts balls and so on.

Popcorn
12-11-2004, 09:14 PM
I loved those balls by the way, the worse the better Once you know how to work it you can play world class players if they aren't bar players. They may get you over time, (they are champions), but you will rob them right out of the box and may even make them have to quit.