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SnakebyteXX
12-13-2004, 03:09 PM
Election challenge filed hours before Electoral College vote in Ohio

CARRIE SPENCER

Associated Press


COLUMBUS, Ohio - The Ohio delegation to the Electoral College cast their ballots for President Bush on Monday amid a challenge of the November results filed hours earlier and a recount to start this week.

The 20 GOP electors voted unanimously for Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, following the same process Ohio electors have used for 200 years.

Challengers of the state's presidential election results asked the Ohio Supreme Court earlier Monday to review the outcome.

They question whether Bush won the key swing state by 119,000 votes, guaranteeing his victory over Democrat John Kerry.

"The vast majority of people understand this election is over," said Gov. Bob Taft, who was at the electors' voting session in the state Senate chamber.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson and Cliff Arnebeck, a Columbus attorney for the Massachusetts-based Alliance for Democracy accused Bush's campaign of "high-tech vote stealing."

Jackson said the challengers noticed Bush generally received more votes in counties that use optical-scan voting machines and questioned whether the machines were calibrated to record votes for Bush.

The dissidents claim there were disparities in vote totals for Democrats, too few voting machines in Democrat-leaning precincts, organized campaigns directing voters to the wrong polling place and confusion over the counting of provisional ballots by voters whose names did not appear in the records at polling places.

The challengers requested that the court declare Kerry the winner or throw out the results if the justices decide to hear the case.

"While the existence of anomalies could possibly be explained by human error or technical malfunctions, the fact that, in every case in Ohio known to the contestors, the error favored the Bush-Cheney ticket, strongly indicates manipulation or fraud," the challengers said in a court filing.

About 10 protesters walked the sidewalk as Electoral College members voted in the Ohio Senate chamber, the Ohio State Highway Patrol reported. They were denied a permit to protest on Statehouse grounds.

The dissidents also asked the court to delay the electors' vote, but the ballots were cast without the court acting on that request.

Congressional Democrats sent a letter Monday to Taft, asking the Republican to delay the electors' vote or at least consider the results unofficial until the disputes are resolved.

Taft refused to delay and spokesman Orest Holubec said the governor would not treat the vote as provisional.

As the electors met, the Democrats led by Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., met in City Hall to hear evidence of voting irregularities, similar to a hearing in Washington last week.

Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, defended the election results. For the challengers' accusations to be true, he said, officials in both parties would have had to conspire to throw the election.

"That's simply a ridiculous assertion," he said.

Led by a coalition representing the Green and Libertarian parties, the dissidents are paying for recounts in each of Ohio's 88 counties that will begin this week. The recounts are not expected to be complete until next week.

Kerry issued a statement last week saying reported voting problems should be investigated to ensure there are no doubts in future elections. His campaign does not dispute that Bush won the election, but supports the recounts.

Under the Electoral College process, the secretary of state sends the delegation's vote to the president of the U.S. Senate, who will announce the national total on Jan. 6.

Ohio's electors are a mix of GOP officials and others who are being rewarded for service to the party.

Elector David W. Johnson, who owns a ceramic tile-making company in Summitville, chaired the vote. Afterward, he called the recount and election challenges senseless expenses for taxpayers.

"It's poor sportsmanship," he said.

link (http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/10403194.htm?1c)

Wally_in_Cincy
12-14-2004, 06:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SnakebyteXX:</font><hr>

...Led by a coalition representing the Green and Libertarian parties, the dissidents are paying for recounts in each of Ohio's 88 counties...

<hr /></blockquote>

Well good luck to them. The OH election is as clean as a hound's tooth.

BTW the Green and Libs are paying $10 per precint for the recount, as stated in a law passed in the 60's, something like $120,000 total. Unfortunately the actual cost will be $1.5 million for the taxpayers.

eg8r
12-14-2004, 07:20 AM
I think whining, crying baby, would be a better description than poor sporsmanship.

eg8r

hondo
12-14-2004, 07:40 AM
Eg, if I was playing 1 hole with you and you were
ahead 7-5 and I stole 2 of your balls and beat you,
would you be a whining , crying baby if you complained?


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I think whining, crying baby, would be a better description than poor sporsmanship.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
12-14-2004, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Eg, if I was playing 1 hole with you and you were
ahead 7-5 and I stole 2 of your balls and beat you,
would you be a whining , crying baby if you complained?
<hr /></blockquote>

There is no evidence of vote fraud. What are you talking about?

Chopstick
12-14-2004, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Eg, if I was playing 1 hole with you and you were
ahead 7-5 and I stole 2 of your balls and beat you,
would you be a whining , crying baby if you complained?


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I think whining, crying baby, would be a better description than poor sporsmanship.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Wouldn't you need to steal three or is this Dem counting rules? /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif </font color>

crawdaddio
12-14-2004, 11:18 AM
I think the point of the OP is that the act of requesting PROOF of actual ballots in an election is most certainly not "poor sportsmanship". On the contrary, it is every citizen's right. It is not partisan in the least to demand this, and would be perfectly acceptable no matter which way the tables were turned.

~DC

eg8r
12-14-2004, 12:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Eg, if I was playing 1 hole with you and you were
ahead 7-5 and I stole 2 of your balls and beat you,
would you be a whining , crying baby if you complained? <hr /></blockquote> Probably not, I would not have anything riding on the game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif However, the problem with your analogy is that there is proof you stole the two balls (you admitted it here), however there is no proof that anything was stolen in this election.

eg8r

eg8r
12-14-2004, 12:53 PM
LOL, I was just figuring he had set himself up easy on a shot and decided if he makes it and steals two of mine it would be his game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Actually what would be the real truth here, is that he would have begun blaming me and suing me for making those extra two balls. He would be calling this "ball disenfranchisment" since I did not give those 2 balls an option of which pocket to drop into. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r &lt;~~~loves any talk of a 1p game in which I am leading /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
12-14-2004, 12:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> ...He would be calling this "ball disenfranchisment" <hr /></blockquote>

If one of the balls were black it would not be counted.

according to Jesse "Shakedown" Jackson

eg8r
12-14-2004, 12:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
There is no evidence of vote fraud. What are you talking about? <hr /></blockquote> This is the democratic way, if you keep saying it enough then people will believe them. Look at all the people who thought there was voter disenfranchisement in the previous election and nothing came to fruition. Look at all the years the Dems have lied to the elderly telling them the Repubs were going to steal away their healthcare and social security. The dems don't even have to mention this stuff anymore because the elderly already believe it and there is no evidence of it.

eg8r

hondo
12-14-2004, 01:04 PM
Right. What he said.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr> I think the point of the OP is that the act of requesting PROOF of actual ballots in an election is most certainly not "poor sportsmanship". On the contrary, it is every citizen's right. It is not partisan in the least to demand this, and would be perfectly acceptable no matter which way the tables were turned.

~DC <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
12-14-2004, 01:07 PM
Doesn't matter. In your mind one becomes a whiner
just by asking questions you don't want to hear.



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Eg, if I was playing 1 hole with you and you were
ahead 7-5 and I stole 2 of your balls and beat you,
would you be a whining , crying baby if you complained? <hr /></blockquote> Probably not, I would not have anything riding on the game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif However, the problem with your analogy is that there is proof you stole the two balls (you admitted it here), however there is no proof that anything was stolen in this election.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
12-14-2004, 01:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think the point of the OP is that the act of requesting PROOF of actual ballots in an election is most certainly not "poor sportsmanship". <hr /></blockquote> Those people are not simply asking. They are whining and crying and have zero proof. Did you read the posts a few months ago where someone went to Kerry's website and read some of the DNC material. A portion was extracted gives light to the current situation. The part that was posted was the DNC stating (and I am paraphrasing) that if there is no proof of voter fraud then make the declaration anyway. File lawsuits and tell the news there was voter fraud.

So we fast forward from that point a few months ago, to the present. There is no proof of voter fraud, yet, the lawsuits are coming and the news is being mislead. This has all been scripted prior to the election, they were just waiting to see which state they would attack.

[ QUOTE ]
The dissidents claim there were disparities in vote totals for Democrats, too few voting machines in Democrat-leaning precincts, organized campaigns directing voters to the wrong polling place and confusion over the counting of provisional ballots by voters whose names did not appear in the records at polling places.
<hr /></blockquote> In this quote, the author is stating matter-of-factly that there fraud was happening, however there is no proof. Is that "simply asking"?

[ QUOTE ]
The challengers requested that the court declare Kerry the winner or throw out the results if the justices decide to hear the case.
<hr /></blockquote> In this quote, they don't even want to recount, they want Kerry declared the winner on the sole base that the justices just "hear" the case. They don't care if they are right or wrong. They feel if the justices agree the hear the case then they are right. Sorry that is not how it happens in the real world. Having said that, most crying, whining babies are trying to get their way in a situation that just does not happen in the real world.

[ QUOTE ]
"While the existence of anomalies could possibly be explained by human error or technical malfunctions, the fact that, in every case in Ohio known to the contestors, the error favored the Bush-Cheney ticket, strongly indicates manipulation or fraud," the challengers said in a court filing.
<hr /></blockquote> Isn't this what they were saying about the democratic counties/precincts in Florida and it was all disproved many times over. Just because some people say it, does not make it true. Another example of a whining crying baby.

[ QUOTE ]
On the contrary, it is every citizen's right. <hr /></blockquote> Who said it wasn't? I actually don't think this "right" to a recount is spelled out in the bill of rights, but you might be correct (I am not looking it up since most Americans believe they have more "rights" than they are given anyways, why not make up more in the process). When you post sentences like this you make the insinuation that someone stated the opposite and this simply never happened. Since your post was in reply to mine, I can gaurantee you will not find anything in that post that states the withholding of anyone's rights.

[ QUOTE ]
It is not partisan in the least to demand this, <hr /></blockquote> Once again, your desire to argue something that simply is not there does not make any sense. Who said it was partisan? I think you have decided to make it a partisan issue as you remember the whining crying baby syndrome of the democratic party 4 years ago, and you are afraid they might be falling in the same pit once again. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
12-14-2004, 01:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't matter. In your mind one becomes a whiner
just by asking questions you don't want to hear.
<hr /></blockquote> C'mon surely you could try harder than that. One failed analogy and you quit and take your ball home?

Are we to believe you truely think these people are "just asking questions". Leads me to believe you are in denial.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
12-14-2004, 01:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I actually don't think this "right" to a recount is spelled out in the bill of rights <hr /></blockquote>

Whether or the votes are recounted in a state depends on the laws of that particular state. The Federal govt. has nothing to do with it. For instance, a state may have a law that says if the margin of victory was less than 1%, the votes must be recounted.

hondo
12-15-2004, 06:51 AM
Frankly, I'm beaten down. Any time I try to say
understand how other people think ,I'm labeled
pc or my words are twisted. I'm just thank God
you gung ho guys don't have any kids in Iraq.
You can sit safely in the comfort of your homes
and label people right and left. I mean just left.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Doesn't matter. In your mind one becomes a whiner
just by asking questions you don't want to hear.
<hr /></blockquote> C'mon surely you could try harder than that. One failed analogy and you quit and take your ball home?

Are we to believe you truely think these people are "just asking questions". Leads me to believe you are in denial.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
12-15-2004, 06:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Frankly, I'm beaten down. Any time I try to say
understand how other people think ,I'm labeled
pc or my words are twisted. I'm just thank God
you gung ho guys don't have any kids in Iraq.
You can sit safely in the comfort of your homes
and label people right and left. I mean just left.

<hr /></blockquote>

Hondo,

This thread is about the election, not the war.

Big news folks. Warren County OH did their recount. Out of 95,000 votes Dubya picked up 2 and Kerry picked up 1.

I guess Jesse Jackson was right.

eg8r
12-15-2004, 07:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I'm beaten down. Any time I try to say
understand how other people think ,I'm labeled
pc or my words are twisted. I'm just thank God
you gung ho guys don't have any kids in Iraq.
You can sit safely in the comfort of your homes
and label people right and left. I mean just left. <hr /></blockquote>Talk about twisting words, are you not doing exactly this very thing. Where in this thread did I label you as part of the left? You are making stuff up, and this is sad.

eg8r

eg8r
12-15-2004, 07:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This thread is about the election, not the war.

Big news folks. Warren County OH did their recount. Out of 95,000 votes Dubya picked up 2 and Kerry picked up 1. <hr /></blockquote> Wow, Bush is widening the gap one recount at a time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Maybe the left will demand that another recount happens and this time only the DNC gets to do the counting. That might turn up a few more votes for Kerry.

eg8r

Chopstick
12-15-2004, 08:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>

I'm just thank God you gung ho guys don't have any kids in Iraq.

<hr /></blockquote>

I'm not pickin' on Hondo here. I just want to say something. We all got kids in Iraq. From my own perspective, those are my boys and I love every one of them. They are fighting my enemies, for my country, and right or wrong whoever is president is my president. And I don't like anyone talking about any of them in a disrespectful or marginalizing fashion.

Once again I ain't picking on you Hondo. There are things that have been said around here that should not have said. Maybe this is one of them. It's just how I feel about it.

crawdaddio
12-15-2004, 08:46 AM
First off Ed, I didn't intend to reply to you specifically. I just happened to click on your post when I clicked "reply".

[ QUOTE ]
They are whining and crying and have zero proof. <hr /></blockquote>

Untrue. In some county in Ohio (I don't have the specifics), A diebold machine counted roughly 5000 votes for Bush.
The county had just over 1000 registered voters. Many, many problems with these electronic voting machines.
Another case was reported by pollworkers that on 2 of their 4 machines, when you selected "John Kerry" GW's name
was actually counted in the confirm screen, and nothing could be done about it. I don't care who won, I am concerned about accurate, accountable voting systems. These machines are neither and were designed by a convicted embezzler. I don't have any "proof" such as
a court decision or an affadavit from some high ranking con. that you would believe. However, take a look at the
link below, use some common sense, and I think you will agree that it would be VERY easy for someone to rig an
election in a number of undetectable ways. That it all I have to say. Good day........

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

Peace
~DC

hondo
12-15-2004, 09:34 AM
Obviously, I'm missing your point. I feel for
every one of our kids dying in that sick, misguided,
un-necessary war more than you could ever imagine.
If I offended you with these words also ,so be it.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>

I'm just thank God you gung ho guys don't have any kids in Iraq.

<hr /></blockquote>

I'm not pickin' on Hondo here. I just want to say something. We all got kids in Iraq. From my own perspective, those are my boys and I love every one of them. They are fighting my enemies, for my country, and right or wrong whoever is president is my president. And I don't like anyone talking about any of them in a disrespectful or marginalizing fashion.

Once again I ain't picking on you Hondo. There are things that have been said around here that should not have said. Maybe this is one of them. It's just how I feel about it. <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
12-15-2004, 09:37 AM
Right and left is an expression and I tried to
make a pun of it. Obviously, unsuccessfully.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Frankly, I'm beaten down. Any time I try to say
understand how other people think ,I'm labeled
pc or my words are twisted. I'm just thank God
you gung ho guys don't have any kids in Iraq.
You can sit safely in the comfort of your homes
and label people right and left. I mean just left. <hr /></blockquote>Talk about twisting words, are you not doing exactly this very thing. Where in this thread did I label you as part of the left? You are making stuff up, and this is sad.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
12-15-2004, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr> In some county in Ohio (I don't have the specifics), A diebold machine counted roughly 5000 votes for Bush.

<font color="blue">IIRC that was caught before the voting even started. Besides Bush won by 130,000 so that 5000 is moot </font color>


The county had just over 1000 registered voters. Many, many problems with these electronic voting machines.
Another case was reported by pollworkers that on 2 of their 4 machines, when you selected "John Kerry" GW's name
was actually counted in the confirm screen, and nothing could be done about it. I don't care who won, I am concerned about accurate, accountable voting systems.

<font color="blue">In Ohio the votes are counted in the prescence of observers from both parties. It would be very, very hard to steal an election. </font color>


<hr /></blockquote>

crawdaddio
12-16-2004, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr> In some county in Ohio (I don't have the specifics), A diebold machine counted roughly 5000 votes for Bush.

<font color="blue">IIRC that was caught before the voting even started. Besides Bush won by 130,000 so that 5000 is moot </font color>

<font color="red">It is NOT moot in the least. It is an example of how unreliable these systems are. I wonder how many times and in how many places these things have occured undetected? </font color>
The county had just over 1000 registered voters. Many, many problems with these electronic voting machines.
Another case was reported by pollworkers that on 2 of their 4 machines, when you selected "John Kerry" GW's name
was actually counted in the confirm screen, and nothing could be done about it. I don't care who won, I am concerned about accurate, accountable voting systems.

<font color="blue">In Ohio the votes are counted in the prescence of observers from both parties. It would be very, very hard to steal an election. </font color>

<font color="red">I just plain disagree. The Diebold software has back doors that can be used at any time from any location. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">I re-iterate:
I don't care who won, I am concerned about accurate, accountable voting systems. </font color>

Peace
~DC