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05-22-2002, 01:35 AM
I've seen ads for various tip shaping tools. Some say nickel radius and some say dime radius. I'm thinking the dime radius is more sharply curved. What is the difference in playability between the two? I don't really shape my tip much. I just use a tip pik so it holds the chalk better. And I let it shape itself.

Jay M
05-22-2002, 11:08 AM
As far as the curve, they are exactly what they say they are, yes, the dime shape is a sharper curve. Probably 90% (a guess, not a statistic) of the players I know use a nickel radius shape.

The bottom line on the difference between them is that the dime radius has a somewhat larger contact area with the cue ball when applying spin, allowing for more spin, more squirt and less accuracy. The nickel radius has less ability for spin and higher accuracy due to the lower squirt.

With true center, both are the same. It might also be noted that a tip will last longer with nickel shaping as the sides don't get worn down nearly as much.

Jay M

Fred Agnir
05-22-2002, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr> The bottom line on the difference between them is that the dime radius has a somewhat larger contact area with the cue ball when applying spin, allowing for more spin, more squirt and less accuracy. The nickel radius has less ability for spin and higher accuracy due to the lower squirt.<hr></blockquote>
These are all statements that need to have some reference point included, IMO. For example, for identical eccentric aimpoints on the cueball, I agree that a dime curvature would spin more due the contact area farther from the center of the cueball. The farther contact area would mean more squirt for the dime curvature for any given aimpoint.

However, in order to get the same amount of spin, the nickel shape would have to be aimed farther from the center, possibly causing a more eccentric hit and therefore *more* squirt for a specific amount of spin for the nickel.

So given these two seemingly opposing statements, they both could be correct depending on what the reference comparison is: Spin or aim.

In case anyone has read this far, Clawson studies (Predator and Iron Willy) recommend the dime for less squirt. The going caveat was that a dime curvature means higher maintenance. I've been using a dime for a bit to try it out. My current tip (which I never touch after initial shaping) is still in dime mode well into its life. FWIW.

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't feel a difference in squirt or spin

05-22-2002, 12:40 PM
MAYABANG!

SpiderMan
05-22-2002, 12:49 PM
Fred,

I carry both a penny and a dime shaper in my case. Don't have a nickel shaper. You might not think there's much difference in a penny and a dime, but it is noticeable both in cueball action and maintenance. For me, a Talisman medium with hold a penny contour for quite a while, but a dime needs frequent shaping to stay a dime. I'm currently playing with a penny contour on a padded triangle, and it seldom needs touch-up.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Jay M:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; The bottom line on the difference between them is that the dime radius has a somewhat larger contact area with the cue ball when applying spin, allowing for more spin, more squirt and less accuracy. The nickel radius has less ability for spin and higher accuracy due to the lower squirt.&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
These are all statements that need to have some reference point included, IMO. For example, for identical eccentric aimpoints on the cueball, I agree that a dime curvature would spin more due the contact area farther from the center of the cueball. The farther contact area would mean more squirt for the dime curvature for any given aimpoint.

However, in order to get the same amount of spin, the nickel shape would have to be aimed farther from the center, possibly causing a more eccentric hit and therefore *more* squirt for a specific amount of spin for the nickel.

So given these two seemingly opposing statements, they both could be correct depending on what the reference comparison is: Spin or aim.

In case anyone has read this far, Clawson studies (Predator and Iron Willy) recommend the dime for less squirt. The going caveat was that a dime curvature means higher maintenance. I've been using a dime for a bit to try it out. My current tip (which I never touch after initial shaping) is still in dime mode well into its life. FWIW.

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't feel a difference in squirt or spin <hr></blockquote>

Doctor_D
05-22-2002, 12:51 PM
Good afternoon:

I have been using a Dime Radius on my Moori Mediums for over a year now. They hold their shape well and only need shaping every other week or so. This, with 30 hours of use each week.

Dr. D.

TonyM
05-22-2002, 01:22 PM
"The bottom line on the difference between them is that the dime radius has a somewhat larger contact area with the cue ball when applying spin, allowing for more spin, more squirt and less accuracy. The nickel radius has less ability for spin and higher accuracy due to the lower squirt. "

Actually, I believe that all of the above statements are actually false!

Perhaps you have the dime and nickel curvatures backwards?

Regarding curvature and contact patch versus spin:

Since we are to assume that a successful shot requires that the cue tip does not slip on the cueball (or else it is a misscue) the contact patch, in and of itself does not limit the amount of spin that can be applied. In fact, you can apply the same amount of spin with either a dime or a nickel curvature tip. The difference will be that the nickel tip will require a bit more offset (distance of the shaft centerline from the cueball center) than the dime tip. This is purely a geometric effect of the different curvatures, not the contact patch size. Strike the cueball at the same "contact point", and you will get the same spin (at least with a dime and nickel comparison).

As for squirt, Predator did find that a dime curvature produced a bit less squirt than a nickel curvature tip. The reasons are still a bit of a mystery, and I wouldn't discount error in the experiment (in theory the tip curvature shouldn't matter at all).

Tony
-uses a dime or even smaller curvature

TonyM
05-22-2002, 01:33 PM
Yes the dime curvature is more highly curved than the nickel. As to the difference in playability, I would say that the dime curvature produces more spin at less actual shaft offset than the nickel curvature. This does not mean to imply that the dime curvature will produce MORE SPIN total. It mearly means that the tip with the smaller curvature hits the cueball further away from center for a given shaft offset. This is simply due to the geometry of the different curvatures.

I prefer a dime curvature myself. I use either a Water Buffalo, or a Moori medium hard, or a Tiger Everest tip. (I precompress each in a vice to eliminate break-in). In each case, I never use a tip pik, or a scuffer, or any other kind of tip maintenance tool, other than chalk. Chalk IS my tip maintenance tool. The tips hold their shapes very well (probably due to my chalk technique and the pre-compression).

I've tried a nickel or flatter tip, but I prefer to stay closer to the center of the cueball when applying spin. With a flat tip, you have to displace the shaft much farther from center to get an equivalent amount of spin. This just doesn't suit me personally, or perhaps it just doesn't look right to me. Different strokes and all....

Best advice is to try several tip curvatures and find one that suits your game.

Tony

Alfie
05-22-2002, 01:59 PM
Quote Jay M-- "The bottom line on the difference between them is that the dime radius has a somewhat larger contact area with the cue ball when applying spin, allowing for more spin, more squirt and less accuracy. The nickel radius has less ability for spin and higher accuracy due to the lower squirt."

The contact patch size is virtually the same size for both curvatures.

You will get a given amount of spin for a given tip offset regardless of tip curvature.

Squirt is not completely understood, however, the only contributing factor known for sure so far is the effective tip end mass. Less mass, less squirt. Predator claims about 10% less squirt with the dime radius. AFAIK this is unproven.

No comment on the squirt/accuracy thing.

IMO

Tom_In_Cincy
05-22-2002, 04:22 PM
90% is about right, for all pool players

But of the pool players that are ranked B or better, I would say that the percentage is closer to 50% here in the Mid West.

penny 19mm (1856-present)
nickel 21.2mm current
dime 17.9mm (-current)

Jay M
05-22-2002, 07:53 PM
Anyone care to make a bet on this one? I'll spot you .01mm /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Jay M

Jay M
05-22-2002, 07:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good afternoon:

I have been using a Dime Radius on my Moori Mediums for over a year now. They hold their shape well and only need shaping every other week or so. This, with 30 hours of use each week.

Dr. D.
<hr></blockquote>

Dr. D,
I have yet to shape my Moori's (M) with almost a year of play on them... and I break with my playing cue. You might want to slow down just a bit on the shaping /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Just a side note, they have a very minor amount of hardening that has happened, maybe due to age or compression from the breaks, but aside from that, I don't even scuff the things.

Jay M

05-23-2002, 06:38 AM
My opinion one more time: "Leave your tip a nickel or even less after install and LET YOUR STROKE MODEL-IN THE CURVATURE IT WANTS"...sid~~~feels that tip "twiddlin'" by players is a bit of a fetish or nervousness. It may be helpful in immediate confidence, OR in placing blame in something missed, BUT fix the mechanics, not the tip

05-23-2002, 07:07 AM
I have considered both the nickel and dime radius for the tip and I feel that the tip radius to be proper should match the radius of the cue ball. This allows maximum tip surface to contact the outer curved portion of the cue ball, convex and concave. This being said,however,visually a nickel or dime is very close to perfect for matching the cueball. When I thought about it, what would a nickel or dime have to do with playing pool if it was any other way?

Scott Lee
05-24-2002, 10:19 AM
I'm with sid on this one! Personally, I don't believe it makes a hill of beans difference whether you have a penny, nickle or dime radius on your tip (no matter WHAT kind of tip it is)! There is NO such thing as a "too round" tip.
Round hits round...flat does NOT hit round! Stroke mechanics are far more important to the action and accuracy of the hit on the CB, than which curvature you have on your tip. I also do nothing to my tips (Talisman H), and break with my playing cue. JMO

Scott Lee

TonyM
05-24-2002, 04:36 PM
"You will get a given amount of spin for a given tip offset regardless of tip curvature."

I don't think that this is correct. For a given tip offset (I assume that you mean a given shaft centerline offset?) you will get a different tip/ball contact point when the tip curvature varies. Since it is the actual contact point (ans speed) that determines the spin (not the tip offset per se) then you will indeed get a different amount of spin if you vary the curvature (but leave the offset the same).

It's based on geometry. Imagine an extreme case version. One tip is completely flat, and the other has a curvature the same as the diameter (both 13.0 mm tips). At an offset of 1/2d, the flat tip will still be striking the cueball in the center, while the curved tip will be striking the ball well away from center. In fact the flat tip will not produce any spin until it is offset &gt;1/2d from center.

A similar relationship can be made for tips of different curvatures (although the effect ismuch smaller).

Tony

TonyM
05-24-2002, 04:41 PM
Certainly both surfaces should be curved. As to "matching" the curvature of the cueball, this would produce a very flat tip indeed!

A cueball has a curvature equal to it's diameter (well obviously!). Perhaps the reason that a dime looks so right is that it approaches the diameter of the tip itself? (although still larger).

Probably a curvature equal to the tip diameter is the theoretical ideal, but likely this would be too difficult to maintain. A nickel or dime is a good compromise that can still be easily maintained.

Tony
-still likes a dime....

Alfie
05-25-2002, 03:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> "You will get a given amount of spin for a given tip offset regardless of tip curvature."

I don't think that this is correct. For a given tip offset (I assume that you mean a given shaft centerline offset?) [...] <hr></blockquote>

Wrong, oh great M.S. of C., I meant the contact point offset. Is it your experience that most people relate tip offset (re: squirt) to the shaft centerline?

-- How could they do such a thing? :-)

TonyM
05-26-2002, 12:07 PM
"I meant the contact point offset. Is it your experience that most people relate tip offset (re: squirt) to the shaft centerline? "

Well that's a good question. Most people talk of spin as the number of tip diameters from center. Since this depends on the tip diameter (not the contact point) it would seem that most people would relate to the shaft offset, not the actual contact point. The actual contact point is not obvious from the vantage point of the player behind the cueball. We can only infer the contact point from the shaft offset. This is why the curvature affects the actual contact point in practice. We can set the shaft at an identical offset from center (for example: 1 tip of sidespin) but the actual contact point will vary with the curvature.

The truth is that for an identical contact point offset, both spin and squirt would remain the same (for the same cue with different tip curvatures and the same stroke speed) but in practice most players use the cue shaft as a reference, hence the apparent variation in spin or squirt.

Tony

Alfie
05-28-2002, 09:42 AM
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heater451
05-28-2002, 10:40 AM
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heater451
05-28-2002, 10:47 AM
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