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SPetty
12-15-2004, 11:43 AM
I've read on numerous occasions folks who use words like "The Predator shaft is stiff" or "The Predator shaft gives a stiff hit" or "It's stiff like a Predator" - stuff like that.

What does "stiff" mean?

I suspect some say it because they've heard others say it, but if you've said it or you think it, what does it mean to you?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Perk
12-15-2004, 11:56 AM
Stiff..just like it sounds.

Actually, take a predator and unload on a power shot just off center, not paying attention to the end result of the cue ball or object ball. Just feel the shaft or the cue in your hands. Now take a cue with a "whippy" shaft, and do the same. You should definately get a feel for what some people state.

<--not talking about any thing other than feel of the shot.

tateuts
12-15-2004, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I've read on numerous occasions folks who use words like "The Predator shaft is stiff" or "The Predator shaft gives a stiff hit" or "It's stiff like a Predator" - stuff like that.

What does "stiff" mean?

I suspect some say it because they've heard others say it, but if you've said it or you think it, what does it mean to you?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Concerning the Predator, I think you've mostly heard it from me, sorry!

Here's how I arrived at that observation, which is really just an opinion since I have't tested it. I play with longer cues. Long cues can get to be very whippy. Think of a fishing pole as being whippy and a baseball bat as being stiff. Straight tapers combined with the softer, light maple being used these days, make for a very flexible shaft - especially when it's extended out a few extra inches. I found that the old, dense, hard maple being used 20 years ago was way stiffer, laterally, than the new stuff. It is denser, heavier, and gave a firmer hit.

When the shaft gets too flexible, I can't predict what a harder struck shot is going to do. It seems like there is more stuff being transferred to the cue ball for some reason, so it draws more, squirts more, and is generally harder to control and less accurate. While this is the opposite of what my logic tells me (and the opposite of what Predator ads say) - it sure seems that way to me. The stiffer cue seems to go "thwack" through the cue ball, the whippy cue kind of goes "boing" off it.

Meucci's are usually quite whippy. So are the long, cheaper grade Filipino cues for some reason.

When I got the Predator 30" shafts - two shafts from two different sources, I half expected them to be "whippy" as well. To my surprise and delight, they were as stiff as a 30 year old Dufferin house cue - and that's stiff! I think it's because the predator has a pretty strong conical taper - that's why the tip is only 12.50 to 12.75 but the shaft is thicker. Also, I believe that the glued up laminations make the shaft stiffer than a conventional one piece shaft.

Anyway, technically I can't say for sure that Predator is stiffer than a conventional shaft - but to me it feels and plays stiffer than other shafts I've used. For me it's nice to find a stiff shaft that is not too fat, too steeply tapered, or too heavy.

Chris

dr_dave
12-15-2004, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I've read on numerous occasions folks who use words like "The Predator shaft is stiff" or "The Predator shaft gives a stiff hit" or "It's stiff like a Predator" - stuff like that.

What does "stiff" mean?

I suspect some say it because they've heard others say it, but if you've said it or you think it, what does it mean to you?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>
The Predator Z-shaft online demo (http://www.predatorcues.com/english/demo.htm) clearly shows that the end of the shaft is very flexible (i.e., not stiff). This is what they claim results in less deflection (squirt). The fact that the end of the shaft is also light helps in reducing the cue ball deflection (squirt). So, to me, the Predator shaft (or at least the end of the shaft) is very flexible (i.e., not "stiff").

Chopstick
12-15-2004, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>
What does "stiff" mean?

I suspect some say it because they've heard others say it, but if you've said it or you think it, what does it mean to you?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I'm really having to bite my tongue on this one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Predator shafts are constructed so the last few inches will flex and ride around the cue ball at impact. In order to concentrate this effect the rest of the shaft would have to be made stiffer to balance this effect. For players accustomed to shafts that have a more uniformly distributed flex a Predator shaft will naturally feel more stiff. The tip end is actually more flexible.

Fred Agnir
12-15-2004, 03:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I've read on numerous occasions folks who use words like "The Predator shaft is stiff" or "The Predator shaft gives a stiff hit" or "It's stiff like a Predator" - stuff like that.

What does "stiff" mean?

I suspect some say it because they've heard others say it, but if you've said it or you think it, what does it mean to you?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>It has a stiffer taper than a Meucci. That is, the diameter grows more rapidly than a Meucci as you go down the shaft.

The Z shaft looks like a very stiff taper, like European constant taper.

Fred

Rod
12-15-2004, 10:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What does "stiff" mean? <hr /></blockquote>

Little or less flex than a standard noodle. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SPetty
12-16-2004, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> What does "stiff" mean?<hr /></blockquote>The reason I ask is that I am often distracted by the whippy, flexible, vibratory behavior of my Predator. I don't have a lot of experience with different shafts, but in my limited opinion, there's nothing stiff about it. And if Predator is supposed to be a stiff shaft, I can't imagine how anyone could play with a normal shaft!

When I started playing a few years ago, I did a little research about cues and shafts and stuff and decided on a Predator. I agree that it doesn't really matter what cue/shaft you start with, you'll learn how to compensate for it's behavior as you learn the game. The consistency between shafts is basically what sold me on it, so I could get a basic cue to start and get a "better" cue later and not have to re-learn the aiming. And, the behavior of the several Predator shafts I've used to date seem to be consistently whippy, flexible, and vibratory.

Just wondrin' what I was missing in the "stiff" descriptions... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rod
12-16-2004, 12:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just wondrin' what I was missing in the "stiff" descriptions...
<hr /></blockquote>

Just people's opinions. Most times it's based on limited experience and no real facts to support such claims. You'll find people just agree and then you have a movement. The Alice's Restaurant Pred Stiff Shaft no Squirt Movement! LOL

Really they can preach all they want, believe what they want but don't try to take me for a ride. You've found the shaft isn't stiff. Well, I think it is to a small degree over a few pro-taper production shafts. That's not saying it's stiff, just a bit stiffer than some shafts.

Your certainly welcome to a whippy opinion. Maybe this shaft just isn't for you. The first of the Pred shafts (abt 94) were terrible. I've seen stouter noodles, I mean they were bad, real bad. Can you tell I didn't like it? LOL

The vibration may be comming from the ferrule area, light wood and hollow shaft. Well I guess they fill it but ---. Speaking of butts, vibration existed for years in butt construction. Mostly a thing of the past but it still exists.

You like what you like SPetty, or your not sure exactly what you do like but it seems clear you don't like the Pred.

Remember just like my opinion others have them but---- I ain't trying sell you something that works for me. I never even really mentioned what I liked. (Well sort of in the stiffness) I won't say you get more spin, draw, or accuracy. Yet there are those that make these claims based on "their" experience. I've found people can have vivid imaginations.

There are those that say, oh such and such cues have a stiff hit. If you want a real stiff hit buy ---------- . put on an Ivory ferrule, bla bla bla bla-- thats what it is just their opinion of a stiff hit or what they like, nothing more.

Rod

tateuts
12-16-2004, 04:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> What does "stiff" mean?<hr /></blockquote>The reason I ask is that I am often distracted by the whippy, flexible, vibratory behavior of my Predator. I don't have a lot of experience with different shafts, but in my limited opinion, there's nothing stiff about it. And if Predator is supposed to be a stiff shaft, I can't imagine how anyone could play with a normal shaft!

When I started playing a few years ago, I did a little research about cues and shafts and stuff and decided on a Predator. I agree that it doesn't really matter what cue/shaft you start with, you'll learn how to compensate for it's behavior as you learn the game. The consistency between shafts is basically what sold me on it, so I could get a basic cue to start and get a "better" cue later and not have to re-learn the aiming. And, the behavior of the several Predator shafts I've used to date seem to be consistently whippy, flexible, and vibratory.

Just wondrin' what I was missing in the "stiff" descriptions... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

OK - I will qualify what I said earlier. On softly struck "feel" shots, Predator shafts feel pretty bad. It's the lack of weight in the tip area. On soft shots the lack of cue momentum gives you a feeling of the tip bouncing off the cue ball.

Other than that, I am convinced that you do have a Predator shaft that is whippy. There is no way I could play with it. I've played with maybe 8 - 10 Predators and they've been pretty consistently stiff. If any were whippy like a Meucci, they would be in the trash can - honestly.

I have two for my own cue, one on a custom bar cue, and had a Predator BK. Now, mind you, all of these shafts were made within the last year or so. I can pick up any of these cues and play the exact same way - no adjustment in aim at all for virtually any combination of spin. Even the Predator BK was a fine playing cue.

You should probably try out a new Predator shaft. They probably have changed something since you bought yours.

Chris

SpiderMan
12-17-2004, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I've read on numerous occasions folks who use words like "The Predator shaft is stiff" or "The Predator shaft gives a stiff hit" or "It's stiff like a Predator" - stuff like that.

What does "stiff" mean?

I suspect some say it because they've heard others say it, but if you've said it or you think it, what does it mean to you?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>
The Predator Z-shaft online demo (http://www.predatorcues.com/english/demo.htm) clearly shows that the end of the shaft is very flexible (i.e., not stiff). This is what they claim results in less deflection (squirt). The fact that the end of the shaft is also light helps in reducing the cue ball deflection (squirt). So, to me, the Predator shaft (or at least the end of the shaft) is very flexible (i.e., not "stiff"). <hr /></blockquote>

Dave,

I think the Predator principle is more about effective end mass than stiffness/flexibility. The shaft's bending in the video clip may not be indicative of relative stiffness, as the forces involved may be quite large.

At impact, two things must be overcome in order for the cue to deflect (and reduce ball squirt). One is the resistance of the cue to bending (the "stiffness" term) and the other is the need to accelerate the resting (at least in the perpendicular direction) shaft sideways (the "effective end mass" term).

If the force required to accelerate the end mass in a direction perpendicular to the cue's centerline travel is dominant, then the shaft's resistance to bending may be only a minor influence in squirt management. In other words, the restoring force of the "stiff" shaft is small compared to the force accelerating the effective end mass sideways.

In such a case, it might be possible to achieve similar amounts of deflection for shafts varying widely in stiffness, provided the effective end masses were similar.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
12-17-2004, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>it might be possible to achieve similar amounts of deflection for shafts varying widely in stiffness, provided the effective end masses were similar.
<hr /></blockquote>
I agree with you completely.

Ross
12-17-2004, 03:58 PM
Spiderman, I think you have this exactly correct. For the mass of the cuetip to move to the side (instead of the cueball moving to the side) in the .001 sec that the tip is in contact with the ball requires quite a force even ignoring any resistance due to the stiffness of the shaft.

How much force? Here goes may totally amateur physics analysis, replete with assumptions.

As a very rough approximation, let's assume the cuetip has to move aside one cuetip width (12 mm) in the .001 seconds of tip/ball contact. Also assume that the sideways force on the cuetip is constant so we have constant acceleration over those 12 mm.

Using my testbook amateur physics equations relating constant acceleration to distance and time I get:

acceleration = 2*distance/time-squared
= 2*12mm/.001^2
= 2*.012m/.000001
= 24000 m/sec^2

Now assume that the mass of the end of the stick that has to be moved to the side is say 1 ounce (I have no idea the actual mass) or 28 grams = .028 kg.

Since:
force = mass x acceleration
= .028 kg x 24000 m/sec^2
= 672 kg-m/sec^2 or 672 newtons
= 151 lbs of force (for us english measurement users)

So to accelerate 1 oz 12 mm in .001 secs requires a constant 151 lb force. Of course the real issue is much more complicated since the cb is also accelerating a bit to the side as well as this is going on. But I don't know physics well enough to allow for this.

But as a VERY rough approximation this suggests that overcoming the inertia of the mass of the tip and ferrule is more of an issue that bending the end of the stick 12 mm., since 151 lbs would not only bend the stick but break it into shards!