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View Full Version : Finding New Stroke and Overdraw Problem



Sid_Vicious
12-16-2004, 10:47 AM
I've recently found what seems to me "my stroke" or my swing as they say in golf terms, and I'm now struggling with drawing way farther than I need. Besides drills, is there advice on how to adjust to a new found stroke and the draw?

Sid

DavidMorris
12-16-2004, 12:02 PM
Well, far be it from me to pretend to give advice, but I struggled with that too until Scott Lee spent a day at my home and pointed out a fundamental flaw in my stroke: my bridge length was too long resulting in inadequate follow-through. I was getting maybe 1-2" of follow-through, if that much, and as a result I was getting very inconsistent CB action. This resulted in me hitting shots much harder than necessary in an attempt to get whitey to do what I wanted. Draw shots in particular were very inconsistent, so much so that I could never rely on them -- I either stopped the CB or barely drew it, or I drew full table, out of control.

Are you familiar with Scott's drill of putting a ball on the side rail at the first diamond, the CB on the second diamond, and then shooting into the corner? First you shoot a stop shot, then a 1 diamond draw, then 2 diamonds, etc., working your way up to a table length draw? After adjusting my stroke to get more consistent follow-through and also building the confidence in being able to hit a full 2 tips low on the CB, my draw became more consistent. Then it was just a matter of tuning my stroke up by a hair for each successive diamond, and practicing a lot to commit the different strokes to muscle memory. Then when I need draw in a game I'll say to myself "I need 2 diamonds of draw" and then it's just a matter of calling up that 2-diamond draw stroke from the drill. I'm not pin-point accurate with it yet, but I'm MUCH better at it than I used to be, good enough to rely on draw now when I need to.

Wally_in_Cincy
12-16-2004, 12:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DavidMorris:</font><hr>
....Are you familiar with Scott's drill of putting a ball on the side rail at the first diamond, the CB on the second diamond, and then shooting into the corner? First you shoot a stop shot, then a 1 diamond draw, then 2 diamonds, etc., working your way up to a table length draw? ....<hr /></blockquote>

You also line up some balls to create a "fence" that you are not allowed to hit when you draw back

START(
%AP8W9%BL3W9%CH8Z4%DL7N1%EN5W9%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MJ3X0%NH2W9%OJ5M0%PO4Z2%UD6Z8%VG4Z4%]J9Z6%^M6Z2
%eB4b6
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

DavidMorris
12-16-2004, 12:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>You also line up some balls to create a "fence" that you are not allowed to hit when you draw back<hr /></blockquote>
True, and the fence balls also serve as a target area marker. The way Scott set it up for me is you use only 3 "fence" balls. For the first (stop shot) you line the first fence ball on the diamond. The goal is to stop the CB within the area of the rail covered by the 3 fence balls. Then for subsequent draw shots, you move the fence back one diamond, aligning the MIDDLE fence ball with the diamond. The draw should again leave the CB within the area covered by the fence balls. This gives you a margin of error of one ball in either direction. Scott is adamant about giving yourself a reasonable margin of error rather than trying for perfection, which leads to frustration and giving up.

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

Shot #1 of Drill:

START(
%AL1Q3%BK6W9%CH8Z4%DL7N1%EJ6R0%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MJ3X0%NH9W9%OJ5M0%PO4Z2%UD6Z8%VG4Z4%]J9Z6%^M6Z2
%eB4a4
)END

Shot #2:

START(
%AL1Q3%BP4X0%CH8Z4%DL7N1%EJ6R0%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MO1X1%NM8X1%OJ5M0%PO0Z2%UD6Z8%VG4Z4%]J9Z6%^M6Z2
%eB4b6
)END

... and so forth, moving back up the table for longer and longer draw shots.

David &lt;~~~~ Hopes Scott doesn't mind us divulging his drills here on the board! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Bob_Jewett
12-16-2004, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>... Besides drills ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think there is no "besides". If you do want to do drills, try the progressive practice drills in the handout on the SFBA web site ( www.sfbilliards.com (http://www.sfbilliards.com) ).

Here's another drill. Set up the object ball a diamond from the corner and near the side rail, and the cue ball a diamond away, with maybe a 15-degree cut shot. Send the cue ball to each of the diamonds on the opposite side rail without hitting a cushion. This will teach you degrees of draw.

Sid_Vicious
12-16-2004, 01:21 PM
Yea it's not really a choice. It is just new to me to have to tone down my draw. I'm not saying I was having any particular trouble drawing with reasonable accuracy using my old stroke, but now this stroke works so well, it gets away from me quick.

There just ain't a shortcut to nuthin in ths game is there! sid

DickLeonard
12-16-2004, 02:19 PM
Bob I learned at an early age to use the straight rail billiard players method of making billiards by drawing the triangle between cueball and the two object balls and dividing the difference in half to score the billiard.

Using Cueball, object ball and diamond made my accuracy very reliable as opposed to feel. Feel only comes in when the pockets are tight limiting the triangle.####

Bob_Jewett
12-16-2004, 04:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Bob I learned at an early age to use the straight rail billiard players method of making billiards by drawing the triangle between cueball and the two object balls and dividing the difference in half to score the billiard.... <hr /></blockquote>
For a diagram of the ball-to-ball-with-draw carom system Dick is describing, see Willie Hoppe's book, "Billiards As It Should Be Played." A similar system is in the October 2004 issue of Billiards Digest.

woody_968
12-16-2004, 04:27 PM
####, that system is something I learned years ago (making myself sound older than I really am) and still use. The interesting thing about the system is most of the time it sends the first ball contacted very close or into a pocket when the second ball is near a pocket. I have even used this just to find the contact point on a bankshot when I am having trouble finding the angle.

Woody

Stretch
12-16-2004, 05:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>... Besides drills ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think there is no "besides". If you do want to do drills, try the progressive practice drills in the handout on the SFBA web site ( www.sfbilliards.com (http://www.sfbilliards.com) ).

Here's another drill. Set up the object ball a diamond from the corner and near the side rail, and the cue ball a diamond away, with maybe a 15-degree cut shot. Send the cue ball to each of the diamonds on the opposite side rail without hitting a cushion. This will teach you degrees of draw. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for that last drill on degrees of draw Bob. Sounds like fun. I can see some great advantages from this already.....like breaking clusters along the opposite side rails? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

Rod
12-16-2004, 05:54 PM
Sid,

I had that happen in golf and pool. It's a snow ball effect, as the stroke gets pure the effect is hitting the ball exact. Usually that is more english with way less effort.

You'll need to know your strengths &amp; limitations with any english a regroup a bit. When it first happen in golf I was easily 2 clubs longer. Here I am hitting a 7 iron my usual 5 iron distance. Later years it happened again now my 9 iron went the old 5 iron distance. It can be a problem though, you have to trust that happens normally without being forced.

It's the same with pool, you'll need to practice. Variable amounts of draw is good practice. Someone mentioned bridge length, I would for sure check out that area. If you are over extended being consistant is difficult at best.

In the end you need overall knowledge of c/b reaction. Most used IMO is near max amount and vary speed of stroke. Doing something better does not make you better necessarly.(maybe more confident) Learning control of that motion does make you better. Your always back to square one but in a more advanced state.

Rod

Rod
12-16-2004, 05:58 PM
Sid,

I had that happen in golf and pool. It's a snow ball effect, as the stroke gets pure the effect is hitting the ball exact. Usually that is more english with way less effort.

You'll need to know your strengths &amp; limitations with any english a regroup a bit. When it first happen in golf I was easily 2 clubs longer. Here I am hitting a 7 iron my usual 5 iron distance. Later years it happened again now my 9 iron went the old 5 iron distance. It can be a problem though, you have to trust that happens normally without being forced.

It's the same with pool, you'll need to practice. Variable amounts of draw is good practice. Someone mentioned bridge length, I would for sure check out that area. If you are over extended being consistant is difficult at best.

In the end you need overall knowledge of c/b reaction. Most used IMO is near max amount and vary speed of stroke. Doing something better does not make you better necessarly.(maybe more confident) Learning control of that motion does make you better. Your always back to square one but in a more advanced state.

BTW I would be somewhat supprised if this is the only change.

Rod

Sid_Vicious
12-16-2004, 06:44 PM
Rod...It's very satisfying to gain this stroke today, and the over draw is my minor complaint but something I need to hone for sure. It was that timing thread that created this new event, and the overall improvement in my game is well worth the work I'll need to do to fix the draw ordeal. It's great to have too much of something I usually have to concentrate at doing perfectly, now it's easy. I'm moving right along...sid