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SecaucusFats
12-17-2004, 11:01 AM
Science Reveals That Lesbian & Heterosexual Women Are More Violent Domestically Than Men.

A.)Lesbians:

1.) Women are four times more likely to be victims of domestic violence in a lesbian household than in a married household.(Claire Renzetti, Violent Betrayal)

2.) Marrried women in traditional families experience the lowest rate of violence compared with women in other types of relationships ("Violence Between Intimates," Bureau of Justice Statistics Selected Findings, November 1994, p.2)

3.)Among lesbians, "rates of verbal, physical, and sexual abuse were all significantly higher in their prior lesbian relationships than in their prior heterosexual relationships: 56.8% had been sexually victimized by a female, 45% had experienced physical aggression, and 64.5% experienced physical/emotional aggression." (1991 survey of 350 lesbians, 75% of whom had been in a previous relationship with a man) (Donald G. Dutton "Patriarchy and Wife Assault: The Ecological Fallacy Violence and Victims. Vol 9, Number 2., 1994. Page(s) 167-178.)

4.) A survey of 1,099 lesbians found that more than half reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. This includes verbal, emotional, psychological, and physical abuse. (Gwat Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrior, "Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships: Dicussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications, "Journal of Social Service Research 15 (1991): 41-59)

5.) Levels of abuse run higher among lesbians than they do homosexual men.

a.)44% of gay men reported having experienced violence in their relationships, 13% reported sexual violence and 83% reported emotional abuse.

b.)55% of lesbians reported physical violence in their relationships, 14% reported sexual abuse, and 84% reported emoytional abuse. (Study of 499 ethnically diverse homosexual, bisexual and transgendered teenagers and adults) (Susan C. Turrell "A Descriptive Analysis of same-Sex Relationship Violence for a Diverse Sample" Journal of Family Violence. Vol. 13, 2000. Page(s) 281-293)

B.)Heterosexual women:

1.)There is evidence from a variety of sources that women are more violent in a domestic setting while men wage war globally. The Revs. Sewell point out in their recent report that:

"We think it is important to note that there have been the same kind of studies done in many countries. there is cross-cultural verification that women are more violent than men in family settings. When behavior has cross-cultural verification it means that it is part of human nature rather than a result of cultural conditioning. <font color="red">Females are most often the perpetrators in spousal violence in most cultures that have been studied to date </font color> ."

2.) Susan Steinmetz, Ph.D. a leading researcher in the filed of family violence, has done a cross-cultural comparison of marital abuse. Using a modified version of the Conflict Tactics Scale (CTS), she examined marital violence in small samples from six socities: Finland, United States, Canada, Puerto Rico, Belize, and Israel. Her results suggest that "...in each society the percentage of husbands who used violence was similiar to the percentage of violent wives." The major exception was Puerto Rico where men were more violent. <font color="red">She also found that: "Wives who used violence...tended to use greater amounts." </font color> (Steinmetz, S.K. A Cross Cultural Comparison of Marital Abuse, Journal of Sociology and Social Welfare, 8, 404-414, 1981)

3.) A 1988 survey of couples in Canada by Brinkerhoff and Lupri found the same pattern. They examined interspousal violence in a representative sample of 562 couples in Calgary, Canada. they used the CTS and found <font color="red"> twice as much severe violence where females assaulted males, 11%, as male assaulting female, 5% </font color> .(Brinkerhoff and Lupri, Interspousal Violence. Canadian Journal of Sociology, 13, p. 407-434, 1988)

All of the above referenced studies can be found at http://www.dvmen.org/dv-38.htm

4.) <font color="red">In Bland and Orn's study, 73.4% of a sample of 616 women said they were the first to use physical violence </font color> . (Bland, R. and Orn, H. Family Violence and Psychiatric Disorder, Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 31, p. 129-137, March, 1986)

The bibliography for B.) 1-4 can be found at http://www.dvmen.org/dv-183.htm

5.) The data from 3 studies: one in 1975, one in 1985, and one done in 1992.

Results:

The scientifc data for the three studies, expressed as a rate per 1,000 couples:

Minor violent acts:

1. Threw something 2. Pushed/Grabbed/Shoved 3. Slapped or spanked

Severe Violent Acts:

1. Kicked/bit/hit with fist 2. Hit, tried to hit with object 3. Threatened with gun or knife 4. Beat up 5. Used gun or knife

Minor Assaults by husband/ by wife 1975 98/77 1985 82/75 1992 92/94

Severe Assaults by husband/ by wife 1975 38/47 1985 30/43 1992 19/44

1975 study: (Behind Closed Doors: Violence In the American Family, Anchor Press, Garden City, NY)

1985 study: (Strauss and Gelles, Journal of Marriage and the Family, August 1986)

1992 study: (Murray A. Straus and Glenda Kaufman Kantor. 13th World Congress of Sociology, July 19, 1994)

Table was prepared using the data from ("Change in Spouse Assault Rates From 1975 to 1992: A Comparison of Three National Surveys In The United States" By Murray A. Straus and Glenda K. Kantor.)

Average results of three studies:

<font color="red">Husbands report they have been severely assaulted by wives: 32 per 1000.

Wives report they have been severely assaulted by Husband: 22 per 1000.
</font color>
If one will take the time to peruse these studies, as well as the numerous studies at http://www.dvmen.org/dv-39.htm one will find:

1.) No evidence that a patriarchal society has any direct influence on family violence.

2.)There is no direct relationship between structural patriarchy and wife assault.

3.)Battering in lesbian couples is much more frequent than heterosexual battering and lesbian relationships are significantly more violent than gay relationships.

These and other studies show that, domestically, lesbian women are the most violent, heterosexual women 2nd most violent, homosexual men 3rd most violent, and heterosexual men are the least violent

SF

eg8r
12-17-2004, 11:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Science Reveals That Lesbian &amp; Heterosexual Women Are More Violent Domestically Than Men. <hr /></blockquote> You better watch yourself, we have a boardmember that might not like the truth in this post. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r &lt;~~does not know if any of it is true

Wally_in_Cincy
12-17-2004, 11:20 AM
I think my first wife was included in that survey /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chopstick
12-17-2004, 11:53 AM
I can say from personal experience that women are prone to violence. I have never and would never raise a hand to a woman and I have been assaulted with everything kitchen knives to automobiles.

hondo
12-17-2004, 12:28 PM
I don't mind a little abuse from women as long as they
wear black boots and garter.

Ross
12-18-2004, 12:17 PM
SF, there is a bit of truth in what you are posting (lesbians have a high rate of domestic violence, woman do start a lot of fights, and there are some truly violent women), but overall your conclusions are misleading (that women in general are "more violent" toward their partners than men). Why do I say this?

First, the research you cite has been highly selected to show only one side of the story so I'm guessing it is from a biased resource (like the Heritage Foundation or the Family Research Council). I call these resources biased not because they are conservative but because they never cite studies that don't support their hypotheses.

Second, it is true that lesbian relationships have a higher rate of domestic violence of the fighting, hitting, verbal, and emotional abuse sort than do heterosexual couples. But these stats are not controlled for the perpetrators own life history. It may well be that women that are physically or sexually abused as children are more likely to become lesbian, so they tend to be more violent later in life. But more importantly what is misleading is the way that all of the studies you cite neglect to pull out the stats separately for the most serious of violent acts - acts where the victim is killed. For this stat you will find heterosexual men perpetrating at a much higher rate than lesbians.

To round out the picture here are some murder stats that were left out:

<ul type="square"> In 1996, among all female murder victims in the U.S., 30% were slain by their husbands or boyfriends. Uniform Crime Reports of the U.S. 1996, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1996

70% of intimate homicide victims are female. Bureau of Justice Statistics Selected Findings: Violence Between Intimates (NCJ-149259), November 1994.

More than twice as many women are killed by their husbands or boyfriends as are murdered by strangers. (Arthur Kellerman, "Men, Women and Murder," The Journal of Trauma, July 17, 1992, pp. 1-5)

More than 90 women were murdered every week in 1991 - 9 out of 10 were murdered by men. (Violence Against Women, A Majority Staff Report, Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 102nd Congress, October 1992, p. 2)

Among all female victims in 1992, 29% were slain by boyfriends or husbands and 4% of male victims were slain by their wives or girlfriends. (Federal Bureau of Investigations, 1993)
[/list]
So men kill their women a lot more often than women kill their men.

Also the motivation behind the violence is ignored in the studies you cite. Men are more often after control and domination than women. For example, 85% of stalkers are men. Men killing their wives at work (obviously not an act of getting caught up in the moment) are much more common than the reverse. And men are much more likely to assault or kill their partners AFTER women break up with them while women are more likely to be violent while still in the relationship. And motive does matter - a man instilling fear in his wife to control her is different than a woman punching her big lug of a husband to get him to pay attention. And of course self-defense is another motive ignored in the studies you cited.

But one of the MOST misleading parts of the studies you cite is how they choose to lump together different levels of violence. This tactic helps hide the greater severity of the acts of men. For example look at the research you cite in point 5). For these stats under "severe violent acts" these researchers lumped together:
"1. Kicked/bit/hit with fist 2. Hit, tried to hit with object 3. Threatened with gun or knife 4. Beat up 5. Used gun or knife"

So with this categorization if the wife threw a pot in the direction of her husband, missed him completely and then her husband then held a knife at her throat or beat her up (I assume that sometimes includes black eyes, broken bones, and maybe hospitalization) they would each be seen as equally violent, getting one count of "severe violent acts" apiece.

Finally, these stats fail to take physical differences of size and strength into account. It is misleading to equate an average size 5' 10" 180 lb man hitting, kicking, slapping, or choking an average size 5' 5" 130 lb woman to the reverse. Now I am a small guy myself, but I promise you that if any of my previous girlfriends or ex-wife would have come at me with their fists I would not have been scared or had much chance of getting severely injured. The reverse would not have been true.

So to summarize, men are equally or less violent IF you just count incidents, equate kicking/hitting/biting to "beat up" and "use gun", if you equate a stronger larger man attacking a smaller weaker woman to the reverse, if you ignore motive and if you conveniently fail to mention the most violent act of all- murder.

Chopstick
12-18-2004, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> SF, there is a bit of truth in what you are posting (lesbians have a high rate of domestic violence, woman do start a lot of fights, and there are some truly violent women), but overall your conclusions are misleading (that women in general are "more violent" toward their partners than men). Why do I say this?

First, the research you cite has been highly selected to show only one side of the story so I'm guessing it is from a biased resource (like the Heritage Foundation or the Family Research Council). I call these resources biased not because they are conservative but because they never cite studies that don't support their hypotheses.
<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Ross. Actually the report in his link has references to a number of academic sources. Here is an excerpt that I found particularly interesting.
<font color="blue">
The question of why men beat women defines out of existence any notion of female pathology. The focus is on the male as transgressor, and feminists have avoided, with good reason, victim-blaming explanations that locate the causes of male violence in women. Given their advantages in strength and power, males can avoid physical conflict with women under all but the most extenuating circumstances. Nevertheless, those women who did report using violence in intimate relationships, 73.4% said they struck the first blow (Bland and Orn 1986), women physically abuse children more than men do (Straus et al., 1980) and that only minor differences exist between male and female aggression (Frodi, Macaulay and Thome, 1977; Hyde, 1984). </font color>

I was raised as a Sourthern Gentleman, but I am beginning to question these beliefs. The more I research the traditional relationships between men and women I am finding that they are unfairly biased toward women. In fact, I am beginning to believe that it is men who are oppressed, not women. If men are truly oppressed than feminism is down right scary. I mean, aside from Arab Faciasts, who's the only other group of people that you have seen walking around with a towel on their heads. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

ChopStick &lt;~~~Still respects women, but has doubts about them.

SecaucusFats
12-18-2004, 01:40 PM
Ross,

Thanks for your well thought out response. You brought up some excellent points, and I'm glad you did so.

As we both know stats and studies can be manipulated in various ways to support one view or another. Sometimes the manipulation is not overt, but more the result of subtle cultural, gender or other forms of bias on the part of the individual or individuals conducting the research.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the murder statistics you cite, and I was seriously remiss in not having obtained those stats prior to my posting. I also thank you for bringing out the flawed methodology used in the CTS survey in regard to how violent incidents were categorized.

Going back to what I said above regarding bias (intentional or otherwise) I must say that perhaps due to my own experience with my previous spouse, I may have been subconsciously biased towards a particular viewpoint.

My ex developed bi-polar disorder with schizophrenia. She became extremely violent and agitated on very many ocassions, which in turn, resulted in my receiving lacerations and fractured bones. I tried everything I could to help her recover, and after having used up every bit of our insurance coverage and tens of thousands of dollars more out of pocket I had to accept that it was all more than I could bear and I filed for divorce. Today, I am married to a great lady whom I love and respect with all my heart.

Again thanks for your response.

SF

SPetty
12-18-2004, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>In fact, I am beginning to believe that it is men who are oppressed, not women. <hr /></blockquote>BWAAHAAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHA! hahahahahaha! funny.

Ross
12-19-2004, 02:58 PM
Wow SF, given what you went through with your ex, I can see why you wouldn't want women to always be portrayed as the innocent victims. I'm glad you moved on and found yourself a good woman.

And I do know women can be violent (and of course mental illness makes the problem worse). Look at what this sick woman did a few days ago to get a baby! I also know that a traditional lack of power has hidden women's own potential for their own ruthlessness. But unfortunately men, on the average, still win the overall violence perpetrator "prize."

I know this isn't related to domestic violence, but if you've never seen the movie "Men with Guns" by all means see it (and no it isn't a liberal anti-gun movie! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif). It is an excellent John Sayles movie set in a fictional central or south american country where there is an armed conflict between the rebels and the government. The movie does a nice job of contrasting idealism and the ugly reality of armed conflict between ideologically warring parties. Basically in these countries (like Iraq) "men with guns" on both sides fighting for a cause they may or may not believe in do pretty much whatever they want to do, creating a major amount of personal tragedy for others and themselves along the way. Anyway I found the movie pretty gripping and the title pops into my head when I see the headlines from Iraq and elsewhere.

Gayle in MD
12-19-2004, 03:10 PM
Thank you Ross for adding some reality to this thread. I might also point out that the major cause of death for pregnant women is murder by the father of their baby, husband or boyfriend.

Gayle in Md.

Chopstick
12-19-2004, 03:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>In fact, I am beginning to believe that it is men who are oppressed, not women. <hr /></blockquote>BWAAHAAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHA! hahahahahaha! funny. <hr /></blockquote>

I wouldn't mind being oppressed by you. Shall I refer to you as your Highness.