PDA

View Full Version : If America were Iraq, What would it be Like?



SnakebyteXX
12-20-2004, 01:32 PM
by Juan Cole

President Bush said Tuesday that the Iraqis are refuting the pessimists and implied that things are improving in that country.

What would America look like if it were in Iraq's current situation? The population of the US is over 11 times that of Iraq, so a lot of statistics would have to be multiplied by that number.

Thus, violence killed 300 Iraqis last week, the equivalent proportionately of 3,300 Americans. What if 3,300 Americans had died in car bombings, grenade and rocket attacks, machine gun spray, and aerial bombardment in the last week? That is a number greater than the deaths on September 11, and if America were Iraq, it would be an ongoing, weekly or monthly toll.

And what if those deaths occurred all over the country, including in the capital of Washington, DC, but mainly above the Mason Dixon line, in Boston, Minneapolis, Salt Lake City, and San Francisco?

What if the grounds of the White House and the government buildings near the Mall were constantly taking mortar fire? What if almost nobody in the State Department at Foggy Bottom, the White House, or the Pentagon dared venture out of their buildings, and considered it dangerous to go over to Crystal City or Alexandria?

What if all the reporters for all the major television and print media were trapped in five-star hotels in Washington, DC and New York, unable to move more than a few blocks safely, and dependent on strangers to know what was happening in Oklahoma City and St. Louis? What if the only time they ventured into the Midwest was if they could be embedded in Army or National Guard units?

There are estimated to be some 25,000 guerrillas in Iraq engaged in concerted acts of violence. What if there were private armies totalling 275,000 men, armed with machine guns, assault rifles (legal again!), rocket-propelled grenades, and mortar launchers, hiding out in dangerous urban areas of cities all over the country? What if they completely controlled Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Denver and Omaha, such that local police and Federal troops could not go into those cities?

What if, during the past year, the Secretary of State (Aqilah Hashemi), the President (Izzedine Salim), and the Attorney General (Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim) had all been assassinated?

What if all the cities in the US were wracked by a crime wave, with thousands of murders, kidnappings, burglaries, and carjackings in every major city every year?

What if the Air Force routinely (I mean daily or weekly) bombed Billings, Montana, Flint, Michigan, Watts in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Anacostia in Washington, DC, and other urban areas, attempting to target "safe houses" of "criminal gangs", but inevitably killing a lot of children and little old ladies?

What if, from time to time, the US Army besieged Virginia Beach, killing hundreds of armed members of the Christian Soldiers? What if entire platoons of the Christian Soldiers militia holed up in Arlington National Cemetery, and were bombarded by US Air Force warplanes daily, destroying thousands of graves and pulverizing the Vietnam Memorial? What if the National Council of Churches had to call for a popular march of thousands of believers to converge on the National Cathedral to stop the US Army from demolishing it to get at a rogue band of the Timothy McVeigh Memorial Brigades?

What if there were virtually no commercial air traffic in the country? What if many roads were highly dangerous, especially Interstate 95 from Richmond to Washington, DC, and I-95 and I-91 up to Boston? If you got on I-95 anywhere along that over 500-mile stretch, you would risk being carjacked, kidnapped, or having your car sprayed with machine gun fire.

What if no one had electricity for much more than 10 hours a day, and often less? What if it went off at unpredictable times, causing factories to grind to a halt and air conditioning to fail in the middle of the summer in Houston and Miami? What if the Alaska pipeline were bombed and disabled at least monthly? What if unemployment hovered around 40%?

What if veterans of militia actions at Ruby Ridge and the Oklahoma City bombing were brought in to run the government on the theory that you need a tough guy in these times of crisis?

What if municipal elections were cancelled and cliques close to the new "president" quietly installed in the statehouses as "governors?" What if several of these governors (especially of Montana and Wyoming) were assassinated soon after taking office or resigned when their children were taken hostage by guerrillas?

What if the leader of the European Union maintained that the citizens of the United States are, under these conditions, refuting pessimism and that freedom and democracy are just around the corner?

Juan Cole is Professor of History at the University of Michigan



Link (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0922-11.htm)

hondo
12-21-2004, 06:01 AM
Excellent post. Michael Moore said what if France in
1776 came over here and said we're going to occupy
your country and liberate you from the tyrannical
British.

Chopstick
12-21-2004, 10:09 AM
Nice post Snake. Perspective is an important tool in evaluating any situation. I do believe that this is the America we will face in 15 or 20 years if we don't take care of the problem now. It is exactly what they have planned for us.

highsea
12-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Let's continue with that analogy...

What if George W. Bush suspended the Constitution and invaded Mexico and Canada, and was responsible for the deaths of 14.5 Million people? Would the Europeans call it a "freeedom struggle" if the US fought back their efforts to put an end to it?

What if fundamentalist southern baptists formed up militias and declared war on the rest of the world if they didn't renounce their beliefs and convert? And what if they adopted the tactics of car bombs and suicide attacks that killed five or ten thousand people each day? Would they be called "freedom fighters", or "right wing death squads"?

What if our laws were based solely on the Old Testament, slavery was legal, women weren't allowed to drive, vote, hold jobs, attend school, go out in public alone, or speak to men outside their family on penalty of death by stoning? Would the leaders of the European Union still call us a "civilized" country?

What would the world be like if the US adopted the ideology of our enemies?

Chopstick
12-21-2004, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>
What if fundamentalist southern baptists formed up militias and declared war on the rest of the world
<hr /></blockquote>

Except for the militia part I think they already have. The secret of how to go fishing with a southern baptist. If you go fishing with one of them, they will drink all of your beer. If you go fishing with two of them, they won't drink any. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle in MD
12-23-2004, 08:32 PM
Excellent post. And just think what the Iraqi's have been going through for years and years before we went in there. There must be a lot of good Iraqi's over there who are strong and brave.

I sure hope some good comes out of all this for them after everything they have been through.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
12-25-2004, 08:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I sure hope some good comes out of all this for them after everything they have been through. <hr /></blockquote> Imagine having to sit there and hold your breath waiting for our media to get all choked up and apologize to the American people for not telling us of some of the good things going on?

eg8r

Chopstick
12-26-2004, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I sure hope some good comes out of all this for them after everything they have been through. <hr /></blockquote> Imagine having to sit there and hold your breath waiting for our media to get all choked up and apologize to the American people for not telling us of some of the good things going on?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

The news media and all those people who are writing those books aren't doing it as a public service. They are doing it to make money. What they are presenting is what we are buying. Just stop buying that crap and they will come up with something else. The truth about anything is never going to be as good as we want it to be and it is never as bad as they say it is.

Gayle in MD
12-29-2004, 08:13 AM
Well, what do you think is going on Ed, do you think there is more good happening over there than bad?

Thank God we have free press here, and they are usually at odds with one another. Atleast we get something to ponder over. My only gripe with the press these days is that now they think we want their opinions about everything, maybe some do, but I, for one, do not. They should just report the news and leave it at that, IMO.

When it comes to war, generally speaking, things are usually much worse than we know, ever.

Gayle in Md.

catscradle
12-30-2004, 01:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Well, what do you think is going on Ed, do you think there is more good happening over there than bad?
... <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not Ed, but I think ... whether there is more good going on over there than bad or vice-versa; there is more good going on and more bad going on than before. Iraq was totally stagnant under Saddam Hussein (sp?) and would never get better. Change can be painful and doesn't always work, but at least the oppourtunity to move in a positive direction now exists.
JMHO.

Chopstick
01-01-2005, 08:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>
I'm not Ed, but I think ... whether there is more good going on over there than bad or vice-versa; there is more good going on and more bad going on than before. Iraq was totally stagnant under Saddam Hussein (sp?) and would never get better. Change can be painful and doesn't always work, but at least the oppourtunity to move in a positive direction now exists.
JMHO.
<hr /></blockquote>

Well said. I think a lot of people don't realize that there are lot of people in the world that think democracy is a temporary social experiment and they will do anything to see it fail.

eg8r
01-02-2005, 07:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Well, what do you think is going on Ed, do you think there is more good happening over there than bad?
<hr /></blockquote> I did not ask what was happening more often. Somewhere deep down, don't you think it would be nice to once hear something good that was happening? Surely you cannot always desire to hear just the bad (besides the fact that it makes Bush look bad, and amplifies the liberals desire to see America lose).

eg8r

Qtec
01-02-2005, 09:30 AM
Democrcy IS a social experiment.
The same with Capitalism.

What are the long term aims of Capitalism?
Chasing bits of paper?

Very profound.

Q

Gayle in MD
01-03-2005, 03:01 AM
Oh, so now you have decided that I want to see us lose? No, you have decided that all liberals want to see the US lose, as you incorrectly label me a liberal.

Interesting, you continually use the same tactics used by the Bush Campaign. Anyone who sees the truth, and has the guts to say what is obvious, but different than the Bush propaganda, is anti-American. I wonder how all the Veterans who fought in Vietnam, and then came back here to tell us the truth after Johnson lied to the American people about the war, would feel about your lumping them into a category which insinuates that they are anti-American.

Bush was warned what would happen if he went in, he wouldn't listen, now things have turned out pretty much the way that many who warned him said they would. According to you, anyone who acknowledges the reality of those conditions is anti-American.

This is the kind of thinking that will bring a nation down for sure. Atleast you acknowledge that what is happening makes Bush look bad, but moreover, Ed, what is happening is killing our good young men.

If the emperor is naked, say so! They're not exactly throwing roses at us over there Ed.

One thing about conservatives, when they follow, they follow with blinders on. Thank God for the press.

Gayle

Gayle in MD
01-03-2005, 03:10 AM
The people who wrote the books were people with twenty to thirty years service in the CIA, NSC and the FBI. They wrote the books because they wanted us to know that we were intentionally mislead and lied to by this administration. Those whom I have seen interviewed, struck me as patriotic and devoted to their country.

Now if you want to talk of money mongers, take a good long look at the Bush administration and the Republican Party.

Yeah, lets all stop reading books, someone might make a buck. We'll all just deny reality, swear the Emperor has clothes.

Gayle

Wally_in_Cincy
01-03-2005, 06:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Democrcy IS a social experiment.
The same with Capitalism.

What are the long term aims of Capitalism?
Chasing bits of paper?

Very profound.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Let's see.

Quality of life?

Providing an avenue for a person who is born poor to change his circumstances thru his own diligence?

Q, those bits of paper provide a lot of improvement in the quality of life for millions of people around the world.

Do you think communism is a better system?

Bob_in_Cincy
01-03-2005, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SnakebyteXX:</font><hr>
by Juan Cole

" ........ What if the Air Force routinely (I mean daily or weekly) bombed Billings, Montana, Flint, Michigan, Watts in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Anacostia in Washington, DC, and other urban areas, attempting to target "safe houses" of "criminal gangs", but inevitably killing a lot of children and little old ladies?

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, that would be bad. Hey ! Wait a minute ! Isn't Michael Moore from Flint ? As long as he was in Flint when it was bombed, that might be ok.

Bob

Bob_in_Cincy
01-03-2005, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
Thank God we have free press here, <hr /></blockquote>

Oh thank you! I needed a good laugh today ! ROFLMAO

Bob

Qtec
01-03-2005, 09:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think communism is a better system?

<hr /></blockquote>
No, I dont.
The man who said,"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", hit the nail on the head. I,m sure Fidel Castro had the best intentions for the Cuban people, but after a time, just staying in power becomes the main issue. Unfortunately, it seems that the most ruthless player ends up in power.

If you want the next generation to survive and prosper we have to start thinking long term.
Pretty soon US oil will dry up and you will be totally dependant of foreign imports. What if the Arabs refused to sell the US any oil? Thats their decision, right? Thats called freedom.
What if they said you have it at but at double the normal market price? Thats Capitalism, right?
We are really all, ultimately, dependant on each other.

Q

eg8r
01-03-2005, 09:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, so now you have decided that I want to see us lose? No, you have decided that all liberals want to see the US lose, as you incorrectly label me a liberal.
<hr /></blockquote> Don't be so paranoid, I did not label you, I stated the desire of liberals.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who sees the truth, and has the guts to say what is obvious, but different than the Bush propaganda, is anti-American. <hr /></blockquote> Is it your desire to make stuff up? Do you care to comment on the ACTUAL WORDS of my post, or do you want to continue to play your silly game and just make up stuff? Let me know, since most of what I have read from you this post of yours already seems to be pointless drivel that has nothing to do with the question asked in my post.

My post was very simple in asking don't you just wish some good news would be displayed on the evening news. You for some reason decided to hop on your soapbox once again. Everything I am reading from you lately is blah blah blah. You are not even making a point to comment on the main subject. This is where some very elementary reading comprehension could go a long ways. Go back and read my simple question, and if you can find it in your good heart, make a comment on that. It should be an easy yes or no answer, not some diatribe on the uses of Bush tactics, etc.

eg8r

eg8r
01-03-2005, 09:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If you want the next generation to survive and prosper we have to start thinking long term.
Pretty soon US oil will dry up and you will be totally dependant of foreign imports <font color="red">(Not once we begin drilling in Alaska.)</font color>. What if the Arabs refused to sell the US any oil? <font color="red">(What if? There are other avenues.)</font color>Thats their decision, right?<font color="red">(Absolutely.)</font color> Thats called freedom.
What if they said you have it at but at double the normal market price? <font color="red">(Then we would buy it at that price until we started drilling in Alaska, or we would look to other sources for the oil.) </font color>Thats Capitalism, right?<font color="red">(Sure. However, retaliation (I am not referring to bombing them and stealing it) is also part of capitalism. It is the threat of retaliation that sort of helps balance this out.) </font color>
We are really all, ultimately, dependant on each other. <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r

Qtec
01-03-2005, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
If you want the next generation to survive and prosper we have to start thinking long term.
Pretty soon US oil will dry up and you will be totally dependant of foreign imports <font color="red">(Not once we begin drilling in Alaska.)</font color>. <font color="blue"> If the US had to reley on Alakan oil, it would only last a matter of months! The Chinese have already struck a deal with Venezuela [sp?]</font color> What if the Arabs refused to sell the US any oil? <font color="red">(What if? There are other avenues.)</font color>Thats their decision, right?<font color="red">(Absolutely.)</font color> Thats called freedom.
What if they said you have it at but at double the normal market price? <font color="red">(Then we would buy it at that price until we started drilling in Alaska, <font color="blue">HaHa. Thats a fantasy. </font color> or we would look to other sources for the oil.) </font color>Thats Capitalism, right?<font color="red">(Sure. However, retaliation (I am not referring to bombing them and stealing it) is also part of capitalism. It is the threat of retaliation that sort of helps balance this out.) <font color="blue"> So ultimately, US dominance relys on conquest? </font color> </font color>
We are really all, ultimately, dependant on each other. <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Is Iraq all about the oil? of course not! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q

Wally_in_Cincy
01-03-2005, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Do you think communism is a better system?

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">I'm not sure how your post relates to my question. I must be stupid. But I will respond anyway. </font color>

No, I dont.
The man who said,"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", hit the nail on the head. I,m sure Fidel Castro had the best intentions for the Cuban people, but after a time, just staying in power becomes the main issue. Unfortunately, it seems that the most ruthless player ends up in power.

<font color="blue">I'm not so sure Castro had the good intentions for the Cuban people. I think he was a far left-wing idealogue who was also of the belief that it was ok to kill his own people to implement his system. If we can consider that "good intentions" so be it. </font color>

If you want the next generation to survive and prosper we have to start thinking long term.

<font color="blue">Yep. We need less socialism and more capitalism. Might as well start now /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously, socialism seems to be acceptable for Scandinavia and much of the rest of Europe. If that's the way they want to live then God bless them. But America has a different mindset. We believe more in rugged individualism and risk-taking. </font color>

Pretty soon US oil will dry up and you will be totally dependant of foreign imports. What if the Arabs refused to sell the US any oil? Thats their decision, right? Thats called freedom.

<font color="blue">You are right. That is freedom. But it's a moot point. They will not stop selling because once their money spigot is turned off it will be the end of the regimes that rule the countries.

We get most of our oil from Canada and Mexico anyway. </font color>

What if they said you have it at but at double the normal market price? Thats Capitalism, right?

<font color="blue">Correct. See above. </font color>

We are really all, ultimately, dependant on each other.

<font color="blue">That's capitalism. I have something you want (money). You have something I want (oil). </font color>


<hr /></blockquote>

Chopstick
01-03-2005, 10:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
We are really all, ultimately, dependant on each other.
<hr /></blockquote>

Yes Q, we are. As far as them doubling the price of oil, they can't. At $75 a barrel gas from coal becomes viable. We're already two thirds of the way there. I'd be willing to pay another dollar a gallon just to tell those ragheads where to stick it.

The whole oil crisis thing is just about money anyway. There is a much worse crisis coming over the horizon and no one's even talking about it. Food. I believe America is still the largest producer of food.

Qtec
01-03-2005, 10:36 AM
You and Wally are missing the point. Resources are FINITE, not INFINITE. There is an end. Things like oil and coal do not come in an endless supply. just a 25% decrease in supply would have huge consequences for the US or the EU.
The SE Asia situation shows just how vulnerable we really are.

Q

Chopstick
01-03-2005, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> You and Wally are missing the point. Resources are FINITE, not INFINITE. There is an end. Things like oil and coal do not come in an endless supply.
<font color="blue">They do run out. Nowever, we have enough coal to last 500 years and we are already building gas station equipment for hydrogen distribution. The first fuel cell power plant has just opened, I forget where. </font color>

just a 25% decrease in supply would have huge consequences for the US or the EU.
<font color="blue">It is my understanding that we get the largest percentage of our oil from Venusuala. We'll just buy more from them. </font color>


The SE Asia situation shows just how vulnerable we really are.
<font color="blue">I guess big waves would make the Dutch nervous. However we have mountains to sit on. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<font color="blue">I saw a Discovery channel documentary on the possibility of a tsunami a half a kilometer high striking the east coast of the United States. How much aid are we gonna get when that happens? </font color>

Qtec
01-03-2005, 11:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The SE Asia situation shows just how vulnerable we really are.
I guess big waves would make the Dutch nervous. However we have mountains to sit on. <font color="blue"> </font color>

I saw a Discovery channel documentary on the possibility of a tsunami a half a kilometer high striking the east coast of the United States. How much aid are we gonna get when that happens? <font color="blue"> If that happens, there wont be much left over to give aid to!
I dont want to worry you but Yellowstone park is one mega volcano. It has risen 72 cm in 50 years. When it blows, which could be at any minute, it will take most of the US with it. The consequecs for the rest of the world would also be devastating.</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Q

Wally_in_Cincy
01-03-2005, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> ... I dont want to worry you but Yellowstone park is one mega volcano. It has risen 72 cm in 50 years. When it blows, which could be at any minute, it will take most of the US with it. <hr /></blockquote>

Any minute? Where do you hear this stuff?

I don't think you realize how big this country is. If it did blow it might darken the sky but it's not going to destroy anything more than 100 miles at most I would guess.

I'm assuming there is a tiny shred of fact in your statement.

Chopstick
01-03-2005, 11:57 AM
I saw the Yellowstone volcano one. That is scary. I also understand that the earth's magnetic field is degrading. They are saying that it does that before it flips polarity as it has done in the past. Before it flips it collapses completely before it re-establishes itself at the opposite poles. That means during that time period the surface of the earth will be exposed to hard radiation from space like gamma and X rays.

We are losing farmland everywhere from irrigation salinity. Throw in a couple asteriods and we have plenty to worry about. This planet is too freaking dangerous. We need to move on if we are going to ensure our long term survival.

highsea
01-03-2005, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <font color="blue">It is my understanding that we get the largest percentage of our oil from Venusuala. We'll just buy more from them.</font color><hr /></blockquote>
The majority of US oil imports are from Canada (2.1 MMBD), Saudi Arabia (1.8 MMBD), Mexico (1.6 MMBD), and Venezuela (1.4 MMBD). The US imports about 12 MMBD, a little less than 20% of that is from the Persian Gulf.

Total US production is about 8 MMBD (about the same as Saudi Arabia). This is down from the high in 1985 of 10 MMBD, but is back on the upswing, with the Gulf of Mexico production on a sharp rise. Alaska produces about 1 MMBD, and opening up ANWR would add about 1.4 MMBD to that.

Saudi Arabia just increased their published proved reserves by 80%, to about 450 Billion barrels. Canada's Alberta Oil Sands have a proved reserves of 320 Billion Barrels.

Increased oil exploration (and thus new oil discoveries) have always outpaced world consumption. There is no reason to anticipate that the world will run out of oil in the forseeable future. Also, new technologies allow previous oil that was considered unrecoverable, profitable to extract.

China has a rapidly increasing demand for oil, and has just inked a large deal with Iran. This doesn't really afffect US imports, because we don't source from Iran. It will have a much larger effect on the EU, because they are heavily dependent on Persian Gulf Oil.

So from the Euros perspective, the war is all about oil. As production in the North Sea declines, their dependence on Gulf Oil grows. This is why France and Germany were willing to sell their UNSC vetos to Iraq, the promise of oil. Since the US is not dependent on Gulf Oil, we couldn't be bribed (less than 10% of total US consumption comes from the Persian Gulf, and that could be replaced by ANWR and the Gulf of Mexico).

Europe sees the coming backlash from their failure to support the US in the UN wrt Iraq. Ironically, it is their own failure to support the US in enforcing the UN resolutions which caused the US to go into Iraq, and which now creates a potential threat to the European economy. Couple this with the deflation of the dollar, and the disappearance of the US trade deficit with Europe, and you are left with a bunch of nervous Euros.
--------------------------------------------

highsea
01-03-2005, 12:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> I also understand that the earth's magnetic field is degrading. They are saying that it does that before it flips polarity as it has done in the past. Before it flips it collapses completely before it re-establishes itself at the opposite poles. That means during that time period the surface of the earth will be exposed to hard radiation from space like gamma and X rays.<hr /></blockquote>Haha, good one Chop. Actually, the earth's magnetic pole always moves. Right now it is just over 20 Deg. from the terrestrial pole. 200 Years ago it was 40 degrees off. It is moving about 6 miles a year, to the north/northwest. Some years it moves as much as 25 miles, so it's not a constant thing. It kind of hops around and does a little jig. No one knows the actual cause of this, but there are a few theories.

GPS has made compasses mostly unnecessary nowdays, but mariners still know to correct for compass deviation. Charts have a compass rose on them and a date. The correction is typically around 10 minutes per year from the date on the chart (depending on the chart scale). A new survey is done every ten tears, and new charts are printed.

But there is no catastrophic flip, it's a gradual thing. In geological scales it seems rapid, but to us we hardly notice.
-----------------------------------------

Chopstick
01-03-2005, 01:09 PM
I realize that it moves around. I saw a guy on TV talking about it weakening.

Variations in the earth's magnetic field are important to all living beings on the planet. Scientists are aware that this field is in a constant state of flux as it is influenced by the solar winds, shifts in the magnetic core, and the presence of ferromagnetic substances in the earth's crust.

Current research shows that the earth's field periodically waxes and wanes, and even reverses itself entirely. Though the reasons for this are not currently known, geological evidence indicates that the strength of the field gradually grows weaker, reaches a minimum or disappears entirely, and then builds again the opposite direction. This results in a reversal of the North and South magnetic poles. Scientists estimate that such reversals take place about every one-half to one million years. The most recent reversal took place about 700,000 years ago.

Other scientist have documented that the earth's magnetic field has degraded about 50% over the last 500 - 1,000 years, with a full 5% decline being recorded in the past 100 years. Calculations are that if this degradation continues at its present rate, there will not be a sufficient magnetic field to support life within 1500 years.


Link (http://www.asunam.com/Observe.html)

<font color="blue">Of course this could be the same guy that said cell phones will give you brain cancer. </font color>

highsea
01-03-2005, 01:50 PM
He's a quack.

"What is REIKI?
Reiki is a Japanese healing art that was drawn from Buddhist, Shinto, and Taoist traditions, and synthesized into a palatable system, by a Japanese gentleman named Mikao Usui.

The term "REI" in this context means "from the higher spiritual realms", and "KI" means "vital life force and/or energy." Thus Reiki means the principle of life force energy from the higher spiritual realms.

In Reiki, the healing energy or dynamic, is allowed to flow into the practitioner, and then the practitioner acts as a vehicle through which this energy can be passed onto another individual via the hands."

[ QUOTE ]
Rev. Junnen Asunam Pope is a Shingon Buddhist Monk, a Reiki Master, and Director of the Reiki Foundation™. He has also been Ordained as a Minister, and Healer / Counselor by the Interfaith Church and Ministry; the Church of Tzaddi. His experience as a Minister of Natural Healing encompasses several modalities in addition to Reiki, and as such he uses an integrated approach, which allows him to serve the varying needs of each person, treating them as a unique individual with specific wellness goals. His work focuses on assisting people in restoring their health and wellness physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually.

His extensive training in holistic disciplines, including studies in Japan, has helped him to develop a completely versatile palette of modalities for helping people.

Rev. Pope has worked successfully with many people facing the challenges of cancer (ovarian, lung, etc., and the detrimental affects of some cancer treatments), chronic fatigue syndrome, arthritis, immune dis-orders, vasculitis, the affects of multiple sclerosis, stress, insomnia, low energy and waning vitality.

In the area of counseling, Rev. Junnen Asunam Pope has assisted individuals in successfully navigating the trials of life transitions such as: career changes, maintaining balanced intimate relationships, moving forward after separation and/or divorce, grief counseling, and developing the path of a spiritual lifestyle. He has helped many people to lead more effective and happier lives, by helping them to organize their own personal goals (and their lives), the ways and means to arrive at success (and the steps to getting there), and how to not lose sight of living life in a meaningful and fulfilling way.

Energetic balancing sessions (Reiki) and Counseling sessions can take place either in person, or by phone, depending on location and needs.

Rev. Junnen's vow, is to "help people to help themselves" ... so they become empowered within themselves, and find greater wellness and fulfillment in mind, body, and spirit in all aspects of their lives.

LIST OF PERSONAL SERVICES AVAILABLE:

LIFE ISSUE AND SPIRITUAL COUSELING
IN PERSON AND /OR BY TELEPHONE

ASSISTANCE FACING THE CHALLENGES OF
CANCER, CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME,
MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS, DIVORCE / SEPARATION,
SEASONAL AFFECT DISORDER,
EMOTIONAL, MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STRESS,
RELATIONSHIP DIFFICULTIES

REIKI HEALING SESSIONS

ENERGY BALANCING

DISTANT HEALING SESSIONS

ASSISTANCE IN DEVELOPING SPIRITUALLY

LIGHT AND COLOR THERAPY

BUDDHIST TEACHINGS<hr /></blockquote>

highsea
01-03-2005, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> ... geological evidence indicates that the strength of the field gradually grows weaker, reaches a minimum or disappears entirely, and then builds again the opposite direction. This results in a reversal of the North and South magnetic poles. Scientists estimate that such reversals take place about every one-half to one million years. The most recent reversal took place about 700,000 years ago....Calculations are that if this degradation continues at its present rate, there will not be a sufficient magnetic field to support life within 1500 years.
<hr /></blockquote>
If this were all true, life would never have had the chance to evolve on earth. Since it did, it's not (variation of anthropic principle). I will try to dig up some real data on the strength of the earth's field.

------------------------------------------

Chopstick
01-03-2005, 02:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> If this were all true, life would never have had the chance to evolve on earth. Since it did, it's not (variation of anthropic principle). I will try to dig up some real data on the strength of the earth's field.

------------------------------------------ <hr /></blockquote>

I was trying to find something when I ran across that page. I didn't look behind it. I first got into the changes in the earths magnetic field as a result of a cool toy I bought. It's called a levitron. This gizmo is a magnet base and a top. You spin the top and it will levitate above the magnet. There's a picture of it here.

Levitron (http://www.levitron.com/)

The base has three screw in posts that you use to level it with. One thing I noticed is that once it was setup and leveled so the top would remain over the center of the magnet, it would only be good for a day or two. Then I would have to change the leveling to get it to levitate again. The cause turned out to be that there are lines and localized concentrations of the earths magnetic field that were constantly in motion. I once found a website that had maps of these magnetic lines but I can't find it again. I was interested in investigating it further. The guy talking about feild degradation was on Discovery just for a minute. I didn't catch his name. I can't find any hard reference material to back up his claim.

It doesn't make any sense about it turning off completely since it has switched several times with life present on the planet.

Qtec
01-03-2005, 08:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Volcanic activity began in the Yellowstone National Park region a little before about 2 million years ago. Molten rock (magma) rising from deep within the Earth produced three cataclysmic eruptions more powerful than any in the world's recorded history. The first caldera-forming eruption occurred about 2.1 million years ago. The eruptive blast removed so much magma from its subsurface storage reservoir that the ground above it collapsed into the magma chamber and left a gigantic depression in the ground- a hole larger than the state of Rhode Island. The huge crater, known as a caldera, measured as much as 80 kilometers long, 65 kilometers wide, and hundreds of meters deep, extending from outside of Yellowstone National Park into the central area of the Park.

The most recent caldera-forming eruption about 650,000 years ago produced a caldera 53 x 28 miles (85 x 45 kilometers) across in what is now Yellowstone National Park (Figure 2). During that eruption, ground-hugging flows of hot volcanic ash, pumice, and gases swept across an area of more than 3,000 square miles. When these enormous pyroclastic flows finally stopped, they solidified to form a layer of rock called the Lava Creek Tuff. Its volume was about 240 cubic miles (1,000 cubic kilometers), enough material to cover Wyoming with a layer 13 feet thick or the entire conterminous United States with a layer 5 inches thick.
<hr /></blockquote>

http://www.solcomhouse.com/yellowstone.htm

A Yellowstone eruption could be 2,500 times greater than Mt St Helens.



Q

Gayle in MD
01-07-2005, 07:04 AM
Your statement was very clear, my comment was very clear. If you can't keep up, don't blame me. When you used the word "You" the rest of your sentence was directed to me, not just liberals.

Again, this is a trick used by the right, to lump all those who don't agree with Bush into a group which supposedly is anti Bush, and therefore anti American.

Get's a bit old IMO.

Gayle in Md.