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bluey2king
12-21-2004, 02:11 PM
Hello and Happy Holidays
With some time off for the Holidays, I was thinking of getting some lessons.
I have some Q's *L*
What is the going rate for instructors? I called a Downtown pool hall in Denver and for a prominant Instructor is $50 Bucks/hr. Maybe I just need a BCA certified instructor not sure what that costs, but I am a little embarassed to just ask how much. If I knew a range that would help. What should I look for in one? I am APA S/L 4 in 8 & 9ball.
How many lessons should I consider taking, how much time is needed to digest each lesson. I know these Q's vary for person to person but I figure there is a lot of experience out there that might shed some light on a stradgity for me.
Thanks you guys and gals have been Great!
Bluey2King

Deeman2
12-21-2004, 02:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> Hello and Happy Holidays
With some time off for the Holidays, I was thinking of getting some lessons.
I have some Q's *L*
What is the going rate for instructors? I called a Downtown pool hall in Denver and for a prominant Instructor is $50 Bucks/hr. <font color="blue"> from $40 to $100 an hour one on one. </font color> Maybe I just need a BCA certified instructor not sure what that costs, but I am a little embarassed to just ask how much. If I knew a range that would help. What should I look for in one? <font color="blue"> That you like him/her, respect their knowledge and have heard good things about them. </font color> I am APA S/L 4 in 8 &amp; 9ball. <font color="blue"> It would be a wise investment instead of more money on a new cue. IMO </font color>
How many lessons should I consider taking, how much time is needed to digest each lesson. <font color="blue"> I would take a couple of hours then play a while, then go back and see what you have improved. </font color> I know these Q's vary for person to person but I figure there is a lot of experience out there that might shed some light on a stradgity for me. <font color="blue"> One thing that might help. If you are going to pay good money for lessons, listen and regard everything they tell you. I see a lot of people who want to impress the instructor. Don't fall into that trap. If they are good and you have confidence in them, remember that they are trying to help you and you must follow their instructions even after you go play later. Do the drills they recommend (even if they are boring) and keep some kind of record of your play (see if you can go to a 5 or 6 in APA). </font color>
Thanks you guys and gals have been Great! <font color="blue">You are welcome.

Deeman </font color>
Bluey2King

<hr /></blockquote>

bluey2king
12-21-2004, 02:37 PM
Thanks Deeman that is Sound Advice!
B2K

DavidMorris
12-21-2004, 03:19 PM
What Deeman said, that's good advice. I can whole-heartedly recommend Scott Lee, one of our resident CCB instructors, who spent an entire day with me at my home about 18 months ago. It was an excellent investment, and I got 8 hours of video tape out of it to watch over and over. Video taping is priceless and should be standard with any billiards instruction IMHO.

Scott travels around and can come to your home, your local pool hall, or whatever you arrange. His website is http://www.poolknowledge.com -- his rates are there too.

pooltchr
12-22-2004, 05:00 AM
You have some good advise already posted here. Rates for instructors are pretty much as was already suggested, anywhere from $40 to $100 per hour.

Interview your potential instructor. A BCA instructor should have the knowledge to explain everything in the course, as well as the ability to demonstrate different concepts. They may not be pro players, but they are professional instructors. There is a big difference depending on whether you want to be impressed by someone's skill in shooting, or you want to learn the skills so thay you can grow your own game.

Your instructor should ask you a lot of questions regarding your skill, your goals, what you expect from the lessons, etc. Beware of anyone who only tells you how they are going to fix your game. No one can do that. We can educate you and give you the tools to improve your game, but we can't make you a better player. You have to take what you learn and apply it in order to see any results.

Scott is a very highly regarded instructor. I have spent some time with him, as well as some other instructors. Whenever we get together, it usually results in learning from each other, which in the end helps all of our students.

Check the list of instructors on the BCA web site if you need to find one in your area. Another option is to contact Randyg at Cue Tech in Dallas and see if he is bringing his school on the road in your area. Randy is one of the best in the business.

Steve

randyg
12-22-2004, 06:47 AM
Bluey2king: Tentative Pool School in Colorado Springs. Date TBA.....Happy Holidays-randyg

Popcorn
12-22-2004, 08:57 AM
I know that seems to be the going rate but it sounds like a lot of money, what justifies it?. Are most instructors as busy as they may be if they charged a little less? After all, most instructors have no overhead to speak of, probably file no income taxes or pay any sales tax or have any kind of occupational licenses at all, they operate illegally. Not saying all, but almost everyone I have run into who teaches pool anyway. The same with so called cue repairmen. I build cues and do cue repair as a hobby, but I have an occupational licensee city and county, pay sales tax and income tax. Out of curiosity, what kind of license are you required to have to teach pool in most cities or counties?

Deeman2
12-22-2004, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I know that seems to be the going rate but it sounds like a lot of money, what justifies it?. <font color="blue"> Popcorn,

I think you have to understand that instruction is not a job. in most cases, where they are lined up in sequential order to take lessons. The teacher does have the expense of those hours of travel (signifgant in Scott Lee's case), time between students, etc. If a guy charges say $65 an hour and has to come to you, he had better have more than an hour to teach to make his nut. </font color>

Are most instructors as busy as they may be if they charged a little less? <font color="blue"> It's a whatever the market will tolerate issue. Obviously not a lot of instructors can demand $100 an hour but the ones that can usually have a fairly high amount of demand. If they did not, they would reduce prices. Some do group instruction to make it possible for some to learn at reduced rates.

</font color> After all, most instructors have no overhead to speak of, probably file no income taxes or pay any sales tax or have any kind of occupational licenses at all, they operate illegally. <font color="blue"> THat's alittle like convicting some one before they commit a crime. We should assume they all pay their taxes, etc. unless someone proves otherwise. </font color> Not saying all, but almost everyone I have run into who teaches pool anyway. <font color="blue"> I just would not assume that. </font color> The same with so called cue repairmen. <font color="blue"> Might be said of a lot of professional people but still, it's not true until a case is proven and unfair to make that assumption. </font color> I build cues and do cue repair as a hobby, but I have an occupational licensee city and county, pay sales tax and income tax. Out of curiosity, what kind of license are you required to have to teach pool in most cities or counties? <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> I don't believe there is a license to teach pool. There are industry certifications such as BCA status but I would rather judge a person by their demonstrated skills and not a piece of paper. There are plenty of hairstylists with a license that do terrible work. That being said, I think the BCA is a good way to make sure someone has credentials if you are not familiar with an instructor or are looking blind for one.

Deeman </font color>

Popcorn
12-22-2004, 10:04 AM
quote
" I don't believe there is a license to teach pool."

Anyone doing business in most any city needs some kind of licence if they are self imployed and own the business. I would assume this would include someone teaching regardles what they teach. I am just asking what licence, if any, the teachers on here are required to get where they live to do business.

Deeman2
12-22-2004, 10:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> quote
" I don't believe there is a license to teach pool."

Anyone doing business in most any city needs some kind of licence if they are self imployed and own the business. I would assume this would include someone teaching regardles what they teach. I am just asking what licence the teachers on here are required to get where they live to do business. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">I believe they are required to have the same general business licenses that anyone would, just not a focused credential for pool instruction. I may be wrong. If California or New York City has a teaching permit for pool or licenses specific to general instruction for, games and sports, for instance, I certainly am not aware of them. We'll see if someone more knowledgable can answer this.

Deeman </font color>

pooltchr
12-22-2004, 10:24 AM
I have a business license for the City of Charlotte, Mecklenburg County and the State of NC. Each has to be renewed annually.
Cost of doing business...Video Camera and tapes. Binders for student manuals, copying, printing, mailing, BCA dues, costs for continuing education classes to keep my certification, additional classes if I want to upgrade, travel, gas, training aids, advertising and promotion, upkeep on my website.....I think you get the idea. We haven't even covered my time, which is also worth something. Running a legitimate business is not cheap. I think my rates are very reasonable, and judging from the number of students I work with, apparently they agree.
Just my .02 worth.
Steve

Barbara
12-22-2004, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I have a business license for the City of Charlotte, Mecklenburg County and the State of NC. Each has to be renewed annually.
Cost of doing business...Video Camera and tapes. Binders for student manuals, copying, printing, mailing, BCA dues, costs for continuing education classes to keep my certification, additional classes if I want to upgrade, travel, gas, training aids, advertising and promotion, upkeep on my website.....I think you get the idea. We haven't even covered my time, which is also worth something. Running a legitimate business is not cheap. I think my rates are very reasonable, and judging from the number of students I work with, apparently they agree.
Just my .02 worth.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I agree!

I thought $650 for RandyG's Pool School to come up to CT was a bargain!

Barbara

woody_968
12-22-2004, 10:35 AM
Another thing to consider is the cost of learning how to teach. I know some people play well and just start teaching, but many of the the instructors have spent a considerable amount of time and money to obtain certification.

I know with the amount of money I am investing to learn the proper way to teach, it will take ALOT of lessons at $50hr (and I will start out less than that) to recover my expenses. True, I could find better ways to invest my money, but teaching is what I have always wanted to do.

Popcorn
12-22-2004, 10:51 AM
That is exactly what I was talking about, you are legit, most aren't. I run into it with the cue repair guys all the time. They get a porper machine and come in the pool room handing out cards. One guy around here had a rented warehouse and he knew what he was doing, he could work on cues, but had no license or insurance. He got broke into and a some cues he had there for repairs or shafts were stolen to the tune of about $10,000. Needless to say everybody got stiffed and he eventually skipped town. They learned a lesson about doing business with someone who is not legitimately set up as a business and fly by night. If someone is just taking a few lessons from a guy at the pool room. No video, he has no credentials other then he may be a good player and yet wants $50.00 because that is the going rate. Even if he isn't that bad a teacher his price should be considerably less, like $20. an hour and that would be generous.

Popcorn
12-22-2004, 11:06 AM
I don't think pool should be taught by the hour but by the lesson and what you want to get covered. I go to the dentist and I don't pay him by the hour but by the job. Relating this to pool you can charge so much a lesson and it could be an hour and a half or 55 minutes depending on how the lesson is going. Some people don't seem to get it and some catch on right away and now just have to practice between lessons. You just have to take the bad with the good and have it average out. You can only cover so much in a lesson.

Deeman2
12-22-2004, 12:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> That is exactly what I was talking about, you are legit, most aren't. I run into it with the cue repair guys all the time. They get a porper machine and come in the pool room handing out cards. One guy around here had a rented warehouse and he knew what he was doing, he could work on cues, but had no license or insurance. He got broke into and a some cues he had there for repairs or shafts were stolen to the tune of about $10,000. Needless to say everybody got stiffed and he eventually skipped town. They learned a lesson about doing business with someone who is not legitimately set up as a business and fly by night. If someone is just taking a few lessons from a guy at the pool room. No video, he has no credentials other then he may be a good player and yet wants $50.00 because that is the going rate. Even if he isn't that bad a teacher his price should be considerably less, like $20. an hour and that would be generous.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Popcorn,

I'm sure there are a lot of less than perfect instructors out there as there may be cue repair guys. However, I don't think, in fairness to most instructors out there your generilizations are correct. Aside from that, if a person, good player or good instructor, can impart good, permanent knowledge to another it is certainly worth $50 or even $100 an hour. I see these kids that can't run five balls go out and buy $1,000 cues, add a $500 case, a $200 break/jump cue and whine about a couple of hundred investment in training! They struggle for years at a lower level because they don't have proper guidance. What's so bad about paying a reasonable rate to a person that can help them when many will play nine ball at $20 a whack without thinking twice about it? I went to a small tournament the other night and not enough showed up to make it worth playing. I ended up playing a kid for $20 race to three sets and finished $120 ahead. He played o.k. but could not draw a ball six inches! I just left him a bunch of draw shots when I got in trouble. After we quit, I almost jokingly said, "I'll fix that draw problem for $30." He said, "I ain't payin' 30 bucks for that!" Now, the kid just dropped $120 when a draw stroke might have cut that in half of at least extended his barrels a while.(maybe, maybe not). I probably would have helped him for nothing but his remark made me clam up.

I just think it is not reasonable for people to expect these players/instructors to work for assembly line wages when they have so much time and skill invested.

If you are anywhere near my age (52) you might remeber when no one would show you anything without your playing them for money. Then it was a sort of catch things when you could. I am very happy we have the quality of instructors we have today and think far too many people are wasting their time and money on gadgets and looks instead of learning the basic skills this game requires.

Deeman</font color>

woody_968
12-22-2004, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I don't think pool should be taught by the hour but by the lesson and what you want to get covered. <hr /></blockquote>

I 100% agree with this statement. I use an hourly rate as an example, but would never walk away from a lesson if I didnt feel the student had a good grasp on what I was trying to convey to him.

nAz
12-22-2004, 04:22 PM
lots of good advice given to you it should help you decide. the only thing i can add to it is for you to get it video taped, you can then review it at your leisure. good luck to you.

DennyS
12-22-2004, 05:19 PM
Hi everyone. I was sitting here reading some of these posts and thought I would make a comment on this subject. I have been teaching now for 17 years, professionally for 14. I have classes set up on an hour basis for a regular course. We also do clinics and workshops monthly. We just finished up a 2day clinic/workshop on kicking, banking and the break. Two other BCA Instructors and myself along with WPBA Professional Sarah Rousey taught this clinic. I must say turned out to be a real success. It was a privilege to work with Sarah. She is a real professional! I have classes setup on a weekly basis with most of my students for an hour. There are occasions when they want to work longer and the time is provided. Each class is dependent on what the studentís needs are. We work on many things during these hourly session and homework is assigned for them to do and bring back following week. I also ask them to keep a personal practice record sheet to track what and how they were doing. If they play in league or any other venue I also want them to keep track of situations that come up that they find difficult or donít understand why and how, so we can work on them. I charge $20.00 an hour for the sessions as they are in a class setting. My private lessons are still $50 and hour. I have many students every week; I must be doing something right. I love working with students from the beginner to the professional and respect each and every one of them. I really donít think you can put a monetary amount on something that you love to do. These are just thoughts from an instructor that has been around for a while. I read a lot of posts in this forum and enjoy many of them. I am happy to say for a while I served on the BCA Certification Committee with a lot of my friends. I was able to meet and make some real good friends while working on the committee there. Thank you for your time!

pooltchr
12-22-2004, 05:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I don't think pool should be taught by the hour but by the lesson and what you want to get covered. <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn...Most of my students sign up to take the full course. I do that at a flat fee regardless of how long it takes to complete the course.

Sometimes I get more experienced players who really just want an evaluation to see if there are any particular areas where they might need to make adjustments. This is where the hourly rates come in. I have heard many on this forum say they worked with Scott Lee and went way beyond the scheduled time. I often find my hourly sessions going beyond the plan as well. If I spend an hour and a half with a student who only scheduled an hour, they usually don't pay for extra time. But you have to be able to offer options for your customers.
Steve

DavidMorris
12-22-2004, 06:28 PM
Yeah, I thought I'd add that Scott Lee is known for going above and beyond. When he quoted me the price for a full day of instruction at my home, I was figuring maybe 6 hours, 8 at most. Well, he stayed for over 10 hours, and we quit only because I was too tired to continue!

Given the quality of the personalized guidance that I received, and the full 8 hours of video tape, the price was a bargain. And I'm no beginner either, I've been playing off and on for 25+ years, had a solid, straight stroke and an understanding of position play. I've got a bookshelf full of books and several videos that I've studied for years. My main problem was with consistency, which I thought would be attributed to something wrong in my stance or something. Turns out it was due to a short swing path/long bridge length that Scott identified and corrected right away, plus my lack of a disciplined and well-defined preshot routine. We spent the rest of the day doing drills to reinforce these things and working on advanced topics like banking and diamond systems, and we worked on the break for awhile with Scott clocking my break speed with his radar gun. Plus we played several racks while he coached me on pattern play.

If a long-time player and self-described "student of the game" like myself can gain so much from it, I can with all certainty say that for a beginner just starting out that needs a firm grounding in the fundamentals and wants to avoid those oh-so-hard-to-break bad habits, one-on-one videotaped instruction is well worth the going rates. As someone else stated, such money is far better spent than on expensive cues, cases, and other gadgets.

dmgwalsh
12-22-2004, 08:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DavidMorris:</font><hr> Yeah, I thought I'd add that Scott Lee is known for going above and beyond. When he quoted me the price for a full day of instruction at my home, I was figuring maybe 6 hours, 8 at most. Well, he stayed for over 10 hours, and we quit only because I was too tired to continue!

Given the quality of the personalized guidance that I received, and the full 8 hours of video tape, the price was a bargain. And I'm no beginner either, I've been playing off and on for 25+ years, had a solid, straight stroke and an understanding of position play. I've got a bookshelf full of books and several videos that I've studied for years. My main problem was with consistency, which I thought would be attributed to something wrong in my stance or something. Turns out it was due to a short swing path/long bridge length that Scott identified and corrected right away, plus my lack of a disciplined and well-defined preshot routine. We spent the rest of the day doing drills to reinforce these things and working on advanced topics like banking and diamond systems, and we worked on the break for awhile with Scott clocking my break speed with his radar gun. Plus we played several racks while he coached me on pattern play.

<hr /></blockquote>

I'd like to add that I had the same experience with Scott Lee. Not only was the instruction superb, he went almost two hours over the two hours I paid for the first lesson. I had two more lessons with him and he gave me plenty of time on each of them. Videotaped each time. He brings such an enthusiasm to the lesson and so much intensity, I barely could pause to get a sip of water, for fear I would miss something. He is like the energizer bunny. He keeps going and going.

Anyway, he probably travels to your area. I just spoke to my brother in Oregon today about him giving lessons in that area. email him and talk to him. You won't be disappointed.

Dennis

JPB
12-22-2004, 09:00 PM
I think 50/hr is fine if they know what they are doing. Check your PM tho, I have a coupla questions. And Scott Lee is gr8 as everyone else has said.

Chris Cass
12-23-2004, 01:56 AM
Oh how lucky you are. I would see if I could attend a classroom type BCA instruction combined with on hands training and video taping session.

I'm very happy for you my friend. I know you'll love learning what a good foundation really is and in many cases corrections needed to get on the right track for improvement. Ask many questions and try to absorb all the instruction and if you keep very good notes mentally and on paper or tape. You'll get whatever your investment is forefold.

Myself, I would pay close attention to getting all my mechanics right and going with a BCA Qualified school or instructor will give you what you'll need to troubleshoot any future slacking and saving you more money and time. I would also follow up with a return at a later time to keep the instruction fresh within your mind. Say, like 6 mths and after all the work from the lesson plans was near or completed.

I'm really happy for yopu my friend. Yep, the new yr can bring in many dreams if one sews the seeds now.

Regards,

C.C.~~likes the RandyG school approach. I'd also tape every word as to get every possible bit of information that learned there at the school. What you might think is not impontant might be the most important. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rich R.
12-23-2004, 04:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>If you are anywhere near my age (52) you might remeber when no one would show you anything without your playing them for money. Then it was a sort of catch things when you could. <hr /></blockquote>
Ain't that the truth? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
New players learned by watching the old players. Most of the time, you didn't ask questions. You just sat and watched. Later you would try things out, on the table, and attempt to figure out how to do them the right way. Most of the time, you didn't really understand what you were trying to do.
I prefer the way it is today, with instructors and videos and books. The problem is, I'm trying to break bad habits I learned 35 years ago. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

randyg
12-24-2004, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Another thing to consider is the cost of learning how to teach. I know some people play well and just start teaching, but many of the the instructors have spent a considerable amount of time and money to obtain certification.

I know with the amount of money I am investing to learn the proper way to teach, it will take ALOT of lessons at $50hr (and I will start out less than that) to recover my expenses. True, I could find better ways to invest my money, but teaching is what I have always wanted to do. <hr /></blockquote>

WOODY: Are you becoming "certified"? Check out our certification classes....Merry Christmas-randyg

randyg
12-24-2004, 11:09 AM
RICH: Our time together will be soon. Looks like a school brewing in your area...Merry Christmas-randyg

randyg
12-24-2004, 11:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Oh how lucky you are. I would see if I could attend a classroom type BCA instruction combined with on hands training and video taping session.

I'm very happy for you my friend. I know you'll love learning what a good foundation really is and in many cases corrections needed to get on the right track for improvement. Ask many questions and try to absorb all the instruction and if you keep very good notes mentally and on paper or tape. You'll get whatever your investment is forefold.

Myself, I would pay close attention to getting all my mechanics right and going with a BCA Qualified school or instructor will give you what you'll need to troubleshoot any future slacking and saving you more money and time. I would also follow up with a return at a later time to keep the instruction fresh within your mind. Say, like 6 mths and after all the work from the lesson plans was near or completed.

I'm really happy for yopu my friend. Yep, the new yr can bring in many dreams if one sews the seeds now.

Regards,

C.C.~~likes the RandyG school approach. I'd also tape every word as to get every possible bit of information that learned there at the school. What you might think is not impontant might be the most important. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

CHRIS: Can you believe Scott &amp; I are hosting a Pool School in the middle of Iowa in the Middle of Jan.....cold=cold. Merry Christmas...randyg

Rich R.
12-24-2004, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> RICH: Our time together will be soon. Looks like a school brewing in your area...Merry Christmas-randyg <hr /></blockquote>
Randy, that is very good news to get today, on Christmas Eve. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
I will be waiting for the details.

May you and yours, have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year.

DSAPOLIS
12-24-2004, 11:46 AM
I have never charged more than $25 per session for my instruction. Each session lasts 1-3 hours, and I try not to overload them with too much in any one session. I do this because it makes no sense to charge high prices when the student will need money for practice time after he leaves my class. Just because I charge less, does NOT mean that my instruction is any less valuable... I just feel that the student will need to practice what he/she has been taught, and if they are broke after taking lessons, what's the point? Many students make the mistake of paying extravagant prices for one session of instruction, and more than likely, TOO MUCH information was crammed into that one session, which in the long haul will be counterproductive. Thats just my view on the subject.

Chris Cass
12-24-2004, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>
CHRIS: Can you believe Scott &amp; I are hosting a Pool School in the middle of Iowa in the Middle of Jan.....cold=cold. Merry Christmas...randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Randy,

Where and When? How much me in a pm please. I don't plan on going anywhere soon and I would love the chance to be able to attend. I have a few candidates that might be interested. My brain was picked yesterday from a friend of mine about what I thought he needed to get better in his game.

I told him that he needs to have a strong repeatable, consistant pre-shot routine. He went on to ask what I meant. He asked about the grip and then proceeded to show me this shot. lol

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http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

LOL I asked him, what was his problem again? He told me, Focusing. I told him when your in a game or match where his mind begins to drift in and out. You'll need a consistant pre-shot routine. The grip and alignment is all about your mechanics.

What you need to do is take and invest his money into a certified BCA instructor. They'll give you the information to get your mechanics right. Then, also teach you how to troubleshoot your mechanics when things go aray down the road. They'll set you up with a good pre-shot routine and teach you everything you'll need to know to play more consistantly.

Then, you can rely on your pre-shot routine to get you through the match when focusing becomes a problem. They'll teach you all about your eye patterns, stroke patterns and the importance of knowing your average stroke patterns. You'll need time to get things right and when they do all come togather. You'll be right where you need to be.

I told him whatever the cost may be it's well worth the price to have peace of mind knowing it's possible for him to make that investment back when he plays the tournaments and the enjoyment of playing the right way.

I had to laugh at what he showed me. He said this shot is what helped him focus better when he plays. I told him if he just put one ball out on the table it would force him to focus on that one ball. I told him that when you play you should only focus on that one ball your shooting.

I told him the shot doesn't end the minute the shot is made but when the cb stops. He asked me many questions but I didn't have the time nor the patients to help him more. I told him, there's so much you need to know and that an instructor is the one to get that information. I don't give lessons and especially not for free.

I think I'll tell him where and when first. lol

Regards,

C.C.~~Merry Christmas to you too Randy and all the instructors at your school. Sounds like Scott would be a welcome addition to an already well put togather class. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
12-24-2004, 01:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DSAPOLIS:</font><hr> I have never charged more than $25 per session for my instruction. Each session lasts 1-3 hours, and I try not to overload them with too much in any one session. I do this because it makes no sense to charge high prices when the student will need money for practice time after he leaves my class. Just because I charge less, does NOT mean that my instruction is any less valuable... I just feel that the student will need to practice what he/she has been taught, and if they are broke after taking lessons, what's the point? Many students make the mistake of paying extravagant prices for one session of instruction, and more than likely, TOO MUCH information was crammed into that one session, which in the long haul will be counterproductive. Thats just my view on the subject. <hr /></blockquote>

Hi David,

I like the way you think. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif It's my suggestion to record this information as it might very well be much to absorb for anyone person. The idea about this does extent from many schools. They'll put out a mountain of information and what is remembered is more than just the average small blocks. Kind of like speed reading.

I think no matter what information is put out whether it me a little or alot. It's all valuable if you can tape. Some information will be discarded for those who know the information or had experience with before hand. The classes are set up for more than one skill level to benifit from it. I see it that way. Myself, I have much knowledge about playing and what to use or what to do in many areas. So, for me I'll discard many things where some would need to learn this. This is what makes me want to go.

Now, I would pay $25. just to meet with you my friend. Your a good man and you put out many valuable things in your books and writings. For this it's well worth the trip to see you even in FL. (hope that goes well for you to)

Did I mention your being a champion? That counts very high on my list. The next is the ability to teach or to express ones thoughts. This you have also. That's why I would see you too. So many champions like yourself know everything in the world about the game and ball reactions. Not a handful able to teach it though. You sir have both. I would like to see you join the class and work with Randy and Scott. Along with the other instructors. That would be the nuts. The Iowa one would be the one I'd like to see you join the team.

Regards,

C.C.~~I value the instructors on this board that are giving so much and require so little in return. They have their heart in the right place and I don't want everything for nothing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

randyg
12-24-2004, 02:26 PM
CHRIS:

Sounds like you sould become an Instructor. I will email you more info about the Iowa Pool School direct.....randyg

DSAPOLIS
12-25-2004, 09:57 AM
In Resposne to Chris:

Let me start off by saying that all the glory goes to Him. I am just trying to be a good steward with the gifts, talents and abilities that the Lord has entrusted me with. Remember that it is Him working through me, not me working for pool players. For many years I took, took, and took some more. This si my way of giving back to the game that provided me with so much for so long. I would be more than happy to join Randy and Scott free of charge to reach as many pool players as possible, only because I am in the business of making better pool players, not money.

John 10:10 - "<font color="red">The thief does not come except to steal, kill, and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly</font color>."

For many years I was the thief.

Good Luck &amp; God Bless

PQQLK9
12-25-2004, 10:04 AM
John 10:10 - "The thief does not come except to steal, kill, and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."

Merry Christmas David, there is something Godly about you. You even look like his son.

Chris Cass
12-25-2004, 05:24 PM
We are all his sons. I don't know the bible nor much about the church but I believe we all have our shortcomings and we all can help give peace to those in need. To give back for what we've gained is a feeling that we all want to do when it's our time to reflect. We all go through life taking and wanting what others have or what we feel others would want. There does come a time when these things mean nothing to the big picture in life. That is we are all brothers and sisters. We all want for one another and we all need from one another. When the time comes in your mind it will tell you that we need eachother and know we all belong to something much more valuable than any material things we could ever have. Love is the gift we all can give and we all could use. That you can't buy. That is our most prize possession, not some cue or first place tourney. Even if it's the US Open, my dream.

Regards,

C.C.~~I love all of you. even the vincents in the world. they I think need it more than I.

jjinfla
12-25-2004, 08:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DSAPOLIS:</font><hr> I have never charged more than $25 per session for my instruction. Each session lasts 1-3 hours, and I try not to overload them with too much in any one session. <hr /></blockquote>

Where do I sign up? When can I come up there and visit you? It's probably only a two hour drive for me. But if you only charged me $25 for more than an hour I would feel guilty. I would be the thief.

Jake

Cane
12-27-2004, 11:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What you need to do is take and invest his money into a certified BCA instructor. They'll give you the information to get your mechanics right. Then, also teach you how to troubleshoot your mechanics when things go aray down the road. They'll set you up with a good pre-shot routine and teach you everything you'll need to know to play more consistantly. <hr /></blockquote>

Therein lies the secret of great instruction. When I first started back at this great game after a 14 year layoff, I researched every pool school and instructor I could find... the name Randy Goettlicher kept coming up, so I put down the bucks for his 3 day advanced school. Then for the Expert School, then for the BCA Instructor Certification. Best money I ever spent! Randy and the Pool School team not only taught me the importance of a good preshot routine, they taught technical aspects of the game I never considered and they "proved" to me that a lot of the myths of pool that I'd always believed were just that... MYTHS.

Still, I have to say the the most important thing I learned at the pool school was how to troubleshoot my own problems. If I'm rested and healthy, I don't get out of stroke. If I make a mistake, then I'll know immediately what I've done wrong and how to correct it. RandyG, Jerry Powers and Gene Bell taught me how to troubleshoot my own game and now I can do it in an instant when a mistake is made. The really great thing about it is, the longer I play and teach using the Pool School principles, the better the game gets. Example... last night (rather early this morning), I took first place money in a tournament that included what USED to be thought of as the best player in Western Arkansas and a player that's on the BCA Masters List. I put them both on the L side of the chart, the one listed on the Masters List met me in the finals and I smoked him like a cheap cigar. Everytime I go through my "Pool School" practice routines, my game gets better, mistakes come less often, and I can drift into that creative side of shooting when I'm at the table and admire the scenary and relax when I'm not at the table. Pool has become more fun for me than it ever has been.

In other words, Chris, you made the best point I've seen in this thread. "Then, also teach you how to troubleshoot your mechanics when things go aray down the road." I put great value on everything I learned at Pool School, but THAT is the most valuable thing I could ever have learned and the Pool School staff makes "self repair" easy.

Hmmmm... Sumptin' ain't right, here!!! I have my own pool school and here I go off sounding like an ad agency for Randy! *S*

Later,
Bob

woody_968
12-27-2004, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>
WOODY: Are you becoming "certified"? Check out our certification classes....Merry Christmas-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Randy, yes I am looking to get certified. I have looked briefly at your classes, and would love to attend, but I dont know that I can spend the extra travel expenses. I will look into it more in the beginning of the year, and may contact you for more info.

Woody

randyg
12-27-2004, 04:14 PM
WOODY: If I survive the Iowa Pool School, maybe we can get a school going in your area also....Just an idea. Imagine leaving sunny Dallas for 20 below weather.....randyg

Chris Cass
12-27-2004, 06:22 PM
Hi Cane,

I know you do teach this also and I'd love to recommend students to you also. I wish I knew more about your school. Thank you for making my post credible and I truely believe that this is the reason to go to any school. I feel that if you need to learn anything it has to be how to understand what's going on that makes your play the way it is. Also to find out what's not going on when it isn't. lol

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
12-27-2004, 08:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> the most important thing I learned at the pool school was how to troubleshoot my own problems

<font color="blue">Ain't THAT the truth!!!! </font color>

Everytime I go through my "Pool School" practice routines, my game gets better

<font color="blue">Have you also noticed that every time you teach, you find improvement? I know every time I spend time with students, my game picks up a bit. All that focus on the things we learned in the class, reinforcing it as we work with students, just makes it that much stronger in your own game. If you want to get good at this game, take the class....if you want to get REALLY good at this game, learn how to teach it to others!!! </font color>

Later,
Bob
<hr /></blockquote>

Steve

DickLeonard
12-28-2004, 01:22 PM
Woody, no one ever wanted a lesson from me. They would always say sure he runs 100s but all he shoots are bunnies and short shots.

The manager at RPI Student Union told me that the best player in the room, a Security Guard there told him that I would never show him anything.

I told the manager that everytime he asked me how to play a rack, I would tell play the shot this way and he would say I don't like that shot. After so many of these episodes I just stopped trying to show him. I couldn't figure what he wanted to learn.####

woody_968
12-28-2004, 02:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr>
I told the manager that everytime he asked me how to play a rack, I would tell play the shot this way and he would say I don't like that shot. After so many of these episodes I just stopped trying to show him. I couldn't figure what he wanted to learn.#### <hr /></blockquote>

That is such a great example of the way sooooo many players think. I think there is a period that players go through when they feel they want to do it their way, and until they have strugled enough to be willing to accept good help they will not change. Sort of like being a teenager, man I wish I would have listend to advise about life back then, but I thought I knew it all LOL.

Barbara
12-28-2004, 02:28 PM
####,

That's why there is this Zen saying, "When the student is ready, the instructor will appear.".

Barbara

Deeman2
12-28-2004, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Woody, no one ever wanted a lesson from me. They would always say sure he runs 100s but all he shoots are bunnies and short shots.

The manager at RPI Student Union told me that the best player in the room, a Security Guard there told him that I would never show him anything.

I told the manager that everytime he asked me how to play a rack, I would tell play the shot this way and he would say I don't like that shot. After so many of these episodes I just stopped trying to show him. I couldn't figure what he wanted to learn.#### <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Dick,

Anytime you want to show any of us anything, I'll sit down and shup up. I know you have forgotten more than most of us will ever know. I sincerely wish I had a teacher with your knowledge and talent when I was young. I do get the same thing with my wife. She says, "How can you show me, you always shoot easy shots! GRRRRR...

Deeman </font color>
wishes he did always shoot easy shots!

Cane
12-28-2004, 03:19 PM
Chris,

I've closed my (rather my significant others) sports bar, grill and pool room, so I'm back to just being a poolplayer and plan a LOT of road trips in the next few years. I'll find my way to your pool room one of these days, but if not, I'll see you next year at the US Open. Things keep going like they are and I'm going to throw my hat in the ring next year. You're not going to South Padre at the end of January by any chance are you? Billie (the former pool room queen of big ole Poteau Oklahoma) and I will be there. As a matter of fact, if any CCB'ers will be there, I'd really like to get together with you.

Later,
Bob

SPetty
12-28-2004, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> You're not going to South Padre at the end of January by any chance are you? <hr /></blockquote>Howdy Cane,

I haven't heard a thing about this tournament. Do you have a link to a site with information?

Cane
12-28-2004, 03:41 PM
Steve,

You're absolutely right. Everytime I teach a class or even a single student, my game picks up. Like you said, it reinforces what we teach in our own games.

That said, I love teaching! Not only is it the best thing I ever did for my game, but it's the best thing I ever did for myself personally. I'm a "young" retiree. I've been fortunate in life in that I can concentrate my life on pool and pool alone. Well, the boss lady does require a little attention, but her idea of a great winter vacation is the tournament in South Padre in Jan... funny thing is, she can't run three balls to save her life, and I can't teach her!!! It's impossible!!! I don't care how qualified you are, never teach your own Life Partner how to teach pool. I'm actually considering, when I go to Randy's Pool School for my Instuctor Upgrade this coming year, taking Billie along and letting her take a three day class from Randy! Hope he has better luck than I do! I'm sure he will. I've been through three of Randy's Pool School Classes and then helped him teach the Idaho Falls Pool School (part of Randy's Road Show) and I have no doubt that he can get things across to Billie that I just can't. She tends not to listen to me because... hell, I don't know why, but she met Randy and mentioned that she might like to take his class. "Billie", I said, "I teach the same thing Randy does!" She said, "Yeah, but he won't get mad at me".

Now, don't get me wrong... she understands the fundamentals well (execution is a problem, but understanding is not). When I'm playing, whether it be tournament or a match up and I make a mistake, she'll ease over and say "You're not finishing! Get that thumb on your nipple" (when I'm finishing my stroke well, the second knuckle of my grip hand hits my nipple every time... so much so that it gets hard as a rock and sore as a boil. I keep band aids in my pool case to cover that bugger for a long session!) or "Honey, you were up watching the cue ball go before it ever leaves... freeze on your shots!". She can spot MY mistakes, but I just cannot teach her! Frustrating!!!!

Okay, 'nug naggin for now! LOL

Later,
Bob

Cane
12-28-2004, 04:52 PM
SPetty,
Here's the info I have on it... might be kind of screwed up because my 'puter is going to he!! in a handbasket and it wouldn't open it as a doc file, so I had to convert it. In any case, here's the info. I'm definitely going... would be a good place for any Souther CCBers to get together.

THE South Padre Island
THIRD ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL
9-Ball Championships
JANUARY 28-29-30 2005
South Padre Island Convention Centre "http://www.sopadre.com"
OPEN TO AMATEURS ONLY
NO PROS
THREE DIVISIONS TO CHOSE FROM:
OPEN, LADIES, SENIOR (55+) PRE-PAID ENTRY FEE $125 (includes reg. Fee)
FRIDAY, JANUARY 28, 2005, ENTRY FEE IS $150
(No entry fee accepted after 2pm Friday)
$10,000 ADDED TO TOTAL PURSE
40 VALLEY COUGAR $1 COIN-OP TABLES
OPEN RACE TO 11
LADIES RACE TO 9
SENIORS RACE TO 9
ALTERNATE BREAK TEXAS EXPRESS 9-BALL RULES
DOUBLE ELIMINATION ISLAND DRESS CODE
Players Auction starts at 2pm Friday under the direction of Mr. Dennis Strickland
OPEN PLAY STARTS AT 6PM FRIDAY.
LADIES &amp; SENIORS START AT 8AM ON SAT.
TOURNAMENT DIRECTED BY THE ACADEMY OF BILLIARDS 1-800-707-0158
HOST HOTEL * TRAVELODGE - 1-800-578-7878(Please Inform Reservations That
You Are With The SPI 9-Ball Tournament In Order To Receive This Group Rate)

__________________________________________________ __________Please mail to: South Padre Island Convention &amp; Visitors Bureau Or fax to:
(956) 761-3024 ATTN: SPI 9 Ball Championships 7355 Padre Blvd.,
South Padre Island, TX 78597
Questions? 1-800-657-2373 $25 mini-tournamentstarts
Friday at NOON

Later,
Bob

pooltchr
12-28-2004, 05:59 PM
I feel like I can work with most anyone EXCEPT my wife. I would much rather turn her over to Scott or Randy for the pool lessons.

I used a flyer once that said "Save your relationship...let ME teach your wife or girlfriend how to play pool." I got a few takers on that one. I'm working with a lady now because her husband got frustrated. She just wouldn't listen to him.
Learning this game can be frustrating, and emotional. I don't need to bring any more of either into my personal relationship! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

jpeters
12-28-2004, 06:14 PM
Is the pool school class in Iowa all finished? Sorry I missed the dates. I have been away from the computer for a while and see that I missed a few. Noticing all the prices for instruction It would seem that the quality is much more important than the time spent by an instructor. This has been my main focus of searching out my schooling. I am still looking to spend time with at least 3 Instructors beginning of new year. I am considering Scott Lee and RandyG as additionss to Tim White. Any suggestions on my 3 choices. Also how much time between the different classes should I consider? I have been working on the material on the videos from Tim White for quite a while now with super improvement. As was stated by others earlier, I feel as I should be well rounded to the entire scope of the game from many angles. I have noticed Steve as having the Set-Pause-Finish in his closings. Is this the common stroke wording? I have never heard that before until I saw the videos. Are most of the other Instructors going to be teaching me the same things I already know now? Happy New Year

randyg
12-28-2004, 06:22 PM
Gentleman, gentleman-send me your wives....SPF-randyg

randyg
12-28-2004, 06:34 PM
jpeters: The school in Iowa is Jan. 14-15-16. Scott &amp; I are the lead instructors. Bingo, two for one.

SET-PAUSE-FINISH is the slogan from CUE-TECH Pool School. CUE-TECH is the father of SPF. Scott, Steve, Bob, Tim White (and many others) are clients of our teaching philosophy. If you like Tim White's videos, you will like who taught him......SPF....randyg

Popcorn
12-28-2004, 08:52 PM
If you did not know a thing about him, what would be your opinion of Efrin? Would you try to make him change everything even if he was playing pretty well?

Chris Cass
12-28-2004, 10:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> Chris,

I'll find my way to your pool room one of these days, but if not, I'll see you next year at the US Open. Things keep going like they are and I'm going to throw my hat in the ring next year. Later,
Bob
<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Bob,

I like the way you think. First, the part about you throwing your hat into the ring and play the Open. The best was me being there too. My friend, I wish I had more people thinking I'll be around still by then, including myself. Don't get me wrong, I do have a very positive attitude and a strong will. It's just my body seems not to want to give me some leeway.

I want to discuss the pool school and other champion players without a BCA certification. Teaching is a gift and some with the right training through the BCA course can develope some skills into communicating ideas to others.

This doesn't mean that the qualification is neccessary but what is important is the lesson planning and the goal objectives. There's many notable players that teach that aren't BCA qualified that do a fantastic job teaching and have a direction for the students. This is very well accepted by myself and others too.

The BCA qualification is a way of giving a guarantee to the student that's unaware of what a good instructor is. Nor what to look for in an istructor. There many that aren't BCA qualified that do a good job too.

Take Sailor of Racine,WI. for one. He's not BCA qualified as far as I know and has taught many champions to play at the championship levels. With the students hard work and dedication. This counts for every student. Some of his students went on to become BCA qualified instructors and some have not but all walked away with something they could take to the bank.

Mark Wilson I believe also took lessons from Sailor before getting his BCA qualification. Mark also worked for Jerry Briesath for a few yrs for lessons. I envy that. Then there's Ron Dobenski(sp?). He took many events off in the early to late 80"s. Sailor taught him and he also spent some time with Jerry Briesath. I remember losing to him when I was on the hill and he needed like 2 games. The guy kicks this shot in and runs out sending me packing. He did play it but I felt the odds were too high for him to make the shot. That was at Red Wing, MN.

START(
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%WD6P5%Xg6H4%]s4[3%^f1W3
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

What could I say? I congradulated him on a good shot. The cb lands at letter A on the table and he's out. Then, the break and out for the win.

Sorry for going off subject but there's also Jeff Carter. He's been to Sailor and Jerry I believe too. He plays very well and has extremely good focus during the match. I only heard him mutter one time out of all the times I played tourney with him in Alsip, IL.

My point is that I would recommend all the BCA qualified instructors in the students area. However, if travel isn't a problem then, I can come up with the few that I know are well established from what I've heard good things about. I would never recommend someone to someone unless, I knew they could help. I also like to recommend that the student isn't willing to do their part in making the instruction worth while.

kind of fighting the magic pill sometimes. lol

Regards,

C.C.~~there's no stopping a good instructor with a good student once put togather. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
12-29-2004, 05:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Gentleman, gentleman-send me your wives....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

I am seriously considering signing her up the next time we get together for my upgrade session. Just don't team her up with me!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

randyg
12-29-2004, 06:18 AM
CHRIS: Well spoken. I know quite a few pool players who can teach this old dog a thing or two. One of my life goals is to find them all and pick their brain.

The BCA Instructors Organization is a common ground unit. Not all BCA Intructors are good at what they teach yet there are some outstanding ones in our group.

The members of the SET-PAUSE-FINISH (SPF)family are very special Instructors. We meet several times a year to upgrade information and techniques. We all share the common phylosophy of the New School tradition. Instead of hiding info we share many thoughts between us. When one is down we pick them up. When one shines, we shine with them. We may not be the only shining star, but we are the Milky Way.

CUE-TECH is the Father of SPF. CUE-TECH has produced a very proud bloodline of over two-hundred SPF Instructors. Being part of the CUE-TECH Staff makes me smile with satisfaction every single day....amen

Thanks Chris and Happy New Year to you and your proud family....randyg

woody_968
12-29-2004, 07:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If you did not know a thing about him, what would be your opinion of Efrin? Would you try to make him change everything even if he was playing pretty well? <hr /></blockquote>

Im not sure if this was actually meant for me, but Ill bite and give an answer anyway /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

First I will say it depends on how well is pretty well. I do not think players have to fit a cookie cutter mold.If a player can consistently strike the cueball where desired, with a straight stroke and proper follow through I wouldnt start trying to change his mechanics just because I want him to stand a certain way.

That being said, if something sticks out in the setup that I know could keep him from being as consistent as possible it would be my job to bring it to their attention.

As far as Efrin, while most people hold him as the poster child for being able to play with an unorthodox stroke, I dont know that I would suggest changing anything. I havent studied any video of him as of late, but IIRC his stance gets him on a good line with plenty of clearance. He has a loose grip. He plays with good tempo and a flowing stroke.

He has a longer bridge than alot of instructors would recommend, and his pump handle action is not what most would call ideal. BUT his final stroke is solid!

So I guess I took the long way to say, no, I wouldnt go ripping him apart if I didnt know who he was but he played well.

This is a great question, I will look at some footage when I get home tonight and see if I am remembering things correctly (if I can find a tape where they actually show the player shooting instead of just a close up of the table) or if I need to come back and pull my foot out of my mouth.

Woody

Alfie
12-29-2004, 08:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If you did not know a thing about him, what would be your opinion of Efrin? Would you try to make him change everything even if he was playing pretty well? <hr /></blockquote>Randy G, what say you?

Popcorn
12-29-2004, 09:37 AM
I'm no teacher but myself, in all honesty would think as good as he plays, at a point the funky fundamentals would do him in, maybe as he gets older. I have seen players who had funny fundamentals that played great but if they laid off for any time their games would drop dramatically. I am sure the same thing would happen even to Efrin. There is just too many things that can wrong with his game, sort of like too many moving parts. I prefer a player like Ray Martin or many of the older style players that play such a simple game they will be able to play till the day they die. They seem like you could wake them up in the middle of the night, put a cue in their hands and they would begin making balls. It is a bad thing if players are influenced by a player like Efrin, what works for him may not work for them. Just my opinion.

Chris Cass
12-29-2004, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If you did not know a thing about him, what would be your opinion of Efrin? Would you try to make him change everything even if he was playing pretty well? <hr /></blockquote>Randy G, what say you? <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Alpie,

Of course I can't speak for Randy but it's my position that a good instructor doesn't clone their students but more hone's the students skills.

Regards,

C.C.

woody_968
12-29-2004, 11:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> It is a bad thing if players are influenced by a player like Efrin, what works for him may not work for them. Just my opinion. <hr /></blockquote>

I dont think that is just an opinion, I think that is a fact. I know one player locally that has much the same form as Efrin, I dont know if that is who is is trying to emulate, but thats what he looks like. He has shown no improvement in the many years I have known him. Because of his pump handle stroke he is all over the cueball.

Woody

Chris Cass
12-29-2004, 11:09 AM
You know something Randy? I don't think it's possible for me to respect or like you, anymore than I do now.

Have a Happy New Years,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif