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View Full Version : More is Less/Less needs More/Spin leverage/Fulcrum



LBBill
12-26-2004, 09:34 AM
Just thought I would toss this out there for those that need a little more to think about when executing their shot. Most really good players consider these principles when executing each and every shot. Bridge distance is actually determined by the distance between the fulcrum of the bridge (where the shaft support ends in the bridge hand) to the distance to the cue ball being struck. If you strike the cue ball lets say (X cue tip distance) center left 9'o'clock on the horizontal plane, and increase you bridge distance still striking the X contact point with the same swing speed of your cuestick, as your X cue tip distance is increased, more spin is applied, plus more cue ball squirt. Consider how easy it would be to lift a 1,000 pound wooden crate applying 20lbs of pressure on a ten foot pry bar as opposed to lets say a 100 foot pry bar, think the same amount of energy would generate more lift with the 100 foot bar, duh. I think of the cue stick bridge distance as a pry bar, if you want to do more with less swing speed, lengthen your shaft distance, and in turn if you want to do more with less bridge distance, then you'll have to go more to the outside of the cue ball. When you think of the weight of a cue ball and the weight of a cue stick the leverage you can give to a cue ball is quite amazing, it would be like lifting a 1 pound box with a 5 foot long three pound pry bar, pretty easy don't ya think.

ras314
12-26-2004, 10:21 AM
"for those that need a little more to think about when executing their shot"

"it would be like lifting a 1 pound box with a 5 foot long three pound pry bar"

Makes no sense what so ever to me. Cue shaft might bend a little more with a long bridge distance and a very stiff loop bridge. Might affect squirt a little.

vapoolplayer
12-27-2004, 05:24 AM
i'm scratching my head on this one too.......are you using this example with backhand or parallel english? with backhand english i can see you using an example of a pry bar because you actually use a pivot or fulcrum point. with parallel english you wouldn't. you would just be stroking straight through the cue ball. the longer bridge lets you increase the distance of your backstroke, thus increasing the amount of space you have to accelerate your cue, and acceleration is where you get your power from. that is why you get more out of it. not because it is a fulcrum, or pivot. got the right idea, just the wrong way of explaining it.

thanks

Stretch
12-27-2004, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr> Just thought I would toss this out there for those that need a little more to think about when executing their shot. Most really good players consider these principles when executing each and every shot. Bridge distance is actually determined by the distance between the fulcrum of the bridge (where the shaft support ends in the bridge hand) to the distance to the cue ball being struck. If you strike the cue ball lets say (X cue tip distance) center left 9'o'clock on the horizontal plane, and increase you bridge distance still striking the X contact point with the same swing speed of your cuestick, as your X cue tip distance is increased, more spin is applied, plus more cue ball squirt. Consider how easy it would be to lift a 1,000 pound wooden crate applying 20lbs of pressure on a ten foot pry bar as opposed to lets say a 100 foot pry bar, think the same amount of energy would generate more lift with the 100 foot bar, duh. I think of the cue stick bridge distance as a pry bar, if you want to do more with less swing speed, lengthen your shaft distance, and in turn if you want to do more with less bridge distance, then you'll have to go more to the outside of the cue ball. When you think of the weight of a cue ball and the weight of a cue stick the leverage you can give to a cue ball is quite amazing, it would be like lifting a 1 pound box with a 5 foot long three pound pry bar, pretty easy don't ya think. <hr /></blockquote>

You lost me after "Just thought I'd toss this out there". You say "most really good players concider these principals before each and every shot?"........BWAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!! St.

straightpool
12-27-2004, 07:43 PM
If I had to think about that before every shot, I would find a new hobby! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod
12-27-2004, 07:55 PM
I'm not sure, but if I did think about it I might shoot someone!! Once again rocket science mixed with pool is alive.

Rod

LBBill
12-27-2004, 08:41 PM
For you doubters, now try and break a 9-ball rack with a 4 inch distance from the fulcrum/support area of the bridge, and then increase it to lets say 12 to 16 inches like Danny Medina, do you notice any increase in the power using the same arm swing speed???

LBBill
12-27-2004, 08:55 PM
As you have more shaft length hit the contact point on the outside of the cue ball, you apply more leverage to the hit and in turn apply more spin, try it!! For example, from the support/fulcrum of the bridge hand 3 inches away from the cue ball hit the foot rail, then striking the same spot on the cue ball with the same arm swing speed but having the bridge hand 12 inches away, do you notice any more spin/direction change of the cue ball coming off the end rail, I think so, its simple physics, you guys are showing your hand, don't ya know.

Rod
12-27-2004, 09:05 PM
Well just so you know, I didn't necessarly doubt you said, I just didn't understant it. LOL I don't know what you were saying so the phrase rocket science. At any rate if your arm swing speed is the same there is no increase in c/b speed.

A longer bridge length enables a player more time to build cue speed to an extent. However the arm swing speed is no longer the same. Sorry, I'm still not sure what your trying to say.

Rod

Fred Agnir
12-28-2004, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr> For you doubters, now try and break a 9-ball rack with a 4 inch distance from the fulcrum/support area of the bridge, and then increase it to lets say 12 to 16 inches like Danny Medina, do you notice any increase in the power using the same arm swing speed??? <hr /></blockquote>You have your physics terminology mixed up.

That being said, in general, a longer bridge will result in greater tip speed at contact. But that's a different animal.It has nothing to do with fulcrums in this case.

Fred

LBBill
12-28-2004, 06:56 PM
When striking the cue ball lets say one tip off center 9 o'clock, and you keep the same swing speed more spin will be transferred to the cue than with a shorter bridge distance, just try it, you will see, the longer shaft applies more leverage to the spot struck on the cue ball, off center and in turn creates more spin, its just the laws of physics. Go try it.

Popcorn
12-28-2004, 08:44 PM
What if I shoot it one handed, no bridge?

Bob_Jewett
12-29-2004, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr> ... the longer shaft applies more leverage to the spot struck on the cue ball, off center and in turn creates more spin, its just the laws of physics. ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think you've wandered off along the wrong path, LBBill. The length of the bridge has very little to do with the either spin/speed ratio or the speed of the cue ball. You may want to re-check your theory. Good luck.

LBBill
12-29-2004, 08:26 PM
So Bob, then what your saying. If you strike the cue ball with a 2 mph "hit" and have a the support/fulcrum of your bridge 3 inches away from the cue ball, (and you are striking the cue ball one tip off center, 9 o'clock) that the cue ball will have the same amount of spin if your distance was 12 inches away and all conditions the same. Try what I just said and see if the cue ball comes off the rail a sharper angle also notice that your able to transfer much more english to the object ball and change "steer" its direction more, striking a cue ball this way creates more spin on the cue ball because the length of the shaft leverages the striking point and causes "more" spin than with the 3 inch distance. Now with a draw shot. With more follow through you transfer more spin, thats why you can also draw a ball back further with a longer bridge distance same swing speed than a short, am I making "any" sense?? If you power follow a ball like Kim Davenport is able to you also have to have more bridge distance and therefore more follow through. I have seem Kimmer force follow the cue ball three rails, I know he can't do it with a short bridge distance.

DavidMorris
12-29-2004, 09:27 PM
LBBill, face it, I think you're singing solo here. I'm with Bob and the rest: I don't see how bridge distance and this "fulcrum" effect would have anything do with the amount of spin. It's unheard of, and in all of my years of playing and studying this game, including lessons from pros and reading almost every book on the subject, this is the first I've heard. Bob Jewett would be someone I consider an authority on the physics of pool playing, given his years of research, study, and experiment on the subject. Check out the Jacksonville tapes for Bob's work with others on high-speed photographs and videos of cue-tip-ball interactions.

I think you may be confusing this "fulcrum" idea with that of cue acceleration. A longer bridge length makes it possible to accelerate the cue more before CB contact given the same swing distance. But if you use a long backswing/short bridge or short backswing/long bridge, i.e. the cue travels the same distance before contact, and the tip strikes the CB at the same speed in both cases, spin will have to be the same given identical tip placement.

Longer bridges also cause more abbreviated follow through unless you really drop your elbow, and we all know that follow-through is key to higher-level playing and consistent CB action. More follow-through generally results in more action/spin, since the tip is slowed before contact in a short follow-through "poke" stroke, thus would tend to shoot holes in your long bridge/more spin theory.

If I had to wager I would say that in your experiments you are NOT hitting the CB at the same point. Shorter bridges allow far more accuracy in tip-to-CB placement. In your longer bridge you're probably going wild and hitting farther out on the CB, thus the increased spin you're seeing.

Just my $0.02...

Popcorn
12-29-2004, 09:35 PM
You are losing me here. You use the term fulcrum which suggests the shaft is pivoting. Assuming the cue is going straight it would be the same. The only difference with a longer bridge would be you could pull the shaft back farther and accelerate it a little more giving you more power but the power is generated by the speed of the shaft. If everything is the same speed wise, then nothing would change based on the length of the bridge.

wolfdancer
12-30-2004, 12:34 AM
David, while I was confused, more or less, by LLB's posts, your reply about the longer bridge, promoting a shorter follow through makes sense to me. I've been wondering why I've increased my draw distance, by using a shorter bridge. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up......

superstroke
12-30-2004, 04:48 AM
LBBILL is telling you guys to try it and then make a judgement. I have a table here, I'm going to try it right now.

superstroke
12-30-2004, 04:53 AM
Well sir, I'm sorry to report that with two smooth strokes at the same arm speed the cue ball followed identical to eachother. The first bridge was 3inches and the second was like 12 inches. I know the speed was identical because the object balls that I hit landed exactly the same distance.

vapoolplayer
12-30-2004, 06:25 PM
bill, no one is telling you that you are dead wrong. we're just clarifying that there is no "fulcrum". in your comparison of leverage, you are lifting something using a lever. in pool, you don't lift anything. the reason that you get more out of your shot is because the increased bridge length allows for more acceleration. like i and everyone else have stated, right idea, totally wrong way to explain it. perhaps you could tell us where you heard "that all great players think about this before they shoot". as this is the first time i have ever heard someone talking about leverage or pivot when not talking about backhand english.

thanks

LBBill
12-30-2004, 08:46 PM
With a longer bridge distance you have more follow through, with a shorter bridge distance you have less follow through, you guys are definitely helping me explain my point. Its "follow through" that I should of spoke about. If you have more follow through (longer bridge distance) and the same arm swing speed you will create more spin when striking a cue ball outside of center. Thanks guys, I do have my own way of perceiving this aspect of the game, more follow through equals more spin on off center cue ball hits.

wolfdancer
12-30-2004, 10:12 PM
Fred, I got it figured out...he confusing Archimedes, with Johnny Archer

Rod
12-30-2004, 10:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
With a longer bridge distance you have more follow through, with a shorter bridge distance you have less follow through <hr /></blockquote>

Or so one would think

[ QUOTE ]
I do have my own way of perceiving this aspect of the game <hr /></blockquote>

yes you do

[ QUOTE ]
more follow through equals more spin on off center cue ball hits. <hr /></blockquote>

one could think that

onepocketfanatic
12-31-2004, 12:28 AM
Reading and trying to understand all of this is making my head spin more than the cue ball with a long or short bridge. The follow though related to action on the cb does make sense though.

wantsumrice
12-31-2004, 12:59 AM
I dunno, but the terminology got me a litte confused.

But what I THINK you bill is saying is that the longer the distance between your bridge and the ball is, the more spin you apply. I've actually gave that a little thought before, and theoretically it makes sense because more the shaft would be bending.

DavidMorris
12-31-2004, 08:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr> With a longer bridge distance you have more follow through, with a shorter bridge distance you have less follow through, <hr /></blockquote>
No, I disagree completely. I've seen it in others and I've seen it in myself. When I spent a day with Scott Lee I asked him to help me with my position consistency -- sometimes I got CB action just like I wanted, other times whitey seemed dead even though I applied the same spin. He very quickly pointed out my long bridge length and short swing path was aborting my follow through, I was getting maybe an inch of follow through. Moving my bridge hand up, I was able to easily get 4-6 inches of follow-though, as it should be. Unless you drop your elbow and push through the shot to avoid hitting your chest, a longer bridge length will stop your follow-through short.

vapoolplayer
12-31-2004, 10:52 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif LOL, sorry, wrong again bill......the longer the bridge length, the shorter the follow through. i think you are getting your terminology screwed up. follow throug would be the distance beyond the cue ball that you stroke your cue. by the time you cue tip contacts the cue ball you have don't have as much cue to follow through with using a longer bridge. think about it. if you have a 12 inch bridge, and a standard 29 inch shaft. a long stroke for most people would be to the joint and some people don't stroke it that far. 29 minus 12 is 17 inches. that gives you a 17 inch follow through. got it? now if you use a 6 inch bridge, do the same math. 29 minus 6 equals 23. you get 6 more inches of follow through. understand? again, as stated by many people already, the longer bridge allows for more cue acceleration, but less follow through. a shorter bridge allows for more follow through but less cue acceleration. each has its own ups and downs and each is used for certain shots and/or situations.

vapoolplayer
12-31-2004, 10:58 AM
i looked over my post after i had already posted it and realized that i forgot to mention the above numbers on follow through are just for example. withough dropping the elbow it is just about impossible to follow through to the joint even holding the cue at the very end of the butt. although at this point dropping the elbow occurs long after the cue ball has left the cue tip. just clearing that up before someone gets off on an elbow dropping crusade. i was just posting numbers to make it easier for bill to understand.

thanks

LBBill
12-31-2004, 05:14 PM
Thanks, your on my same page.

LBBill
12-31-2004, 05:20 PM
Let's ask Scott Lee, "if you apply the same side spin, same swing speed, does the spin increase as you increase follow through/bridge length. I am glad your helpin' me out, because I have always been convinced it is true because the "balls" as what they do never lie.

Bob_Jewett
12-31-2004, 06:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr>... if you apply the same side spin, same swing speed, does the spin increase as you increase follow through/bridge length... <hr /></blockquote>
The answer is no, as long as you hit the same distance from the center of the cue ball. The reason that you may feel otherwise is that you don't keep all those other things the same when you use a longer bridge.

DavidMorris
12-31-2004, 07:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr> Thanks, your on my same page. <hr /></blockquote>
Either:

* You're confused
* I'm confused
* You're replying to someone else

I steadfastly disagreed with you and explained why, and you just said we're on the same page.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Pelican
12-31-2004, 07:35 PM
David, I think Bill went one toke over the line.

Rod
12-31-2004, 08:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr> the longer shaft applies more leverage to the spot struck on the cue ball, off center and in turn creates more spin, its just the laws of physics. Go try it. <hr /></blockquote>



Mr Bill,

You stated something in another post but this will do. There isn't any leverage a straight line. Do you know of a way to pry something going straight forward? If you do, explain that please, I'm all ears.

~~~rod, doing nothing on NYE

vapoolplayer
01-01-2005, 02:01 PM
well it seems bill that you're a pioneer. you've ventured farther into the world of pool impossibility than anyone i have ever known. its one thing to be confused and then realize after a few replies that you had your terminology wrong, but it seems you've become more confused as this thread continues. i'm merely reading and posting in this thread for my own amusement now, as its become so confusing its comical. take a hint man, there is no leverage, the longer the bridge, the more acceleration possible, and the less follow through. the shorter the bridge, less acceleration, and more follow through. pick up a book or two, ask an instructor........LOL.

Scott Lee
01-01-2005, 11:37 PM
The answer is no. As long as you are completing your swing (so that your grip hand reaches the 'home' position...which will be in your armpit) the amount of followthrough is not as important as the quality of the swing, and the timing.
The tip does pass through the CB, and I have long thought that a minimum of a few inches (4-6) was necessary for consistent effect. After reviewing this technique at Cue Tech in Dallas, I came to the conclusion above. So...a longer followthrough will NOT deliver any additional influence on the CB. A 'poke' (muscled swing/tight grip), however, whether it goes through the CB or not, is nowhere near as effective as a smooth stroke.

Scott Lee

randyg
01-02-2005, 07:41 AM
Thanks Scott: The "Follow Through" is the RESULT of a perfect stroke, not the cause....randyg

LBBill
01-02-2005, 04:19 PM
Scott, I appreciate your help, then its the in and out (horizontal masse') the cue ball does on its trek/track to the object ball with the longer bridge distance that "tells" me I am imparting more spin and object ball direction change, thanks, I thought all along it was the lenght of the shafts "ability" because all along I thought when the shaft length increase its physical attributes of more mass would impart more spin.