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stickman
12-27-2004, 04:07 PM
I've had a full arsenal of shots for several years except for one. I've decided it was time I figure out the problem. The problem is my follow stroke. When I shoot it slow and smooth it works fine, but when I try to shoot it with speed it reacts like a stun shot. I don't know if the cueball slides off the object ball or what. I've always just used another shot. This is for illustrative purposes. This is the Monk 101 series 272+3.

START(
%HJ1C9%If3J4%P\2O5%QC3Y4%RH0Y7%UC8R5%VJ7D5%WK8D7%X[3N9%YG4Z0
%ZC2S5%[Y9P6%\H0Z9%]D4C8%^I2C7%eA8`5
)END

When I shoot this shot with a slow smooth delivery, I can shoot it just fine, except I stop at the third rail. When I try the shot with a little more speed to get closer to the center of the table, I hit the rail at position A or B. I have had this problem for a long time. Any idea what I'm doing wrong? Thanks in advance. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bob_Jewett
12-27-2004, 04:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> I've had a full arsenal of shots for several years except for one. I've decided it was time I figure out the problem. The problem is my follow stroke. When I shoot it slow and smooth it works fine, but when I try to shoot it with speed it reacts like a stun shot. I don't know if the cueball slides off the object ball or what. ... <hr /></blockquote>
The cue ball doesn't follow because it doesn't have any follow on it. You are not hitting where you intend on the cue ball when you crank up the speed, or maybe you are just not aiming high enough. The first thing to try is to use a cue ball on which you can see the chalk spot where you hit. Some of the training balls are good for this, or you can use a stripe for the cue ball turned with the stripe horizontal (like a belt).

Is it possible to describe in words the shot you gave for those of us who can't do the Wei table? Thanks.

yegon
12-27-2004, 04:26 PM
I am no guru on this but I had my share of problems with this shot and I think I figured it up after my session with an instructor.

It was all about the smooth followthrough. There is no need to pound this shot, I can get to the center of the table and even to the oposite end rail just by concentrating on the followthrough.

This has helped with a pocketing of the ball to. We have a pretty tough (old hard rails and cloth) table here that does not want to take these balls into the corner and the pocketing percentage is much higher with the smooth stroke.

I guess this way I get much more action on the cueball and that is why it travels farther.

stickman
12-27-2004, 05:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> Is it possible to describe in words the shot you gave for those of us who can't do the Wei table? Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>

It was some trouble, so I hope this works. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.snapfish.com/share/p=241271104192398250/l=39324198/otsc=SYE/otsi=SALB

Barbara
12-27-2004, 05:12 PM
Stick,

You need a little high left to spin it off the short rail to get shape on the 9.

Do you have Joe Tucker's "Guaranteed Improvement" drill book? He has a three rail drill using high left- and right-follow off the rails just like you diagrammed. His move is to work from 1-, 2-, and 3-diamonds out from the OB's pocket.

And smooth and steady does it!! Keep a light grip on the cue!

Barbara

stickman
12-27-2004, 05:14 PM
yegon, thanks for the tip. I will have to work on it when I get back to the poolhall. I have always had trouble with that shot with speed. It might be that I tend to punch the shot when I try to shoot it with speed. I would normally shoot this shot with low right and avoid shooting the force follow shot, but I think it's time I learn how to shoot it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
12-27-2004, 05:15 PM
Jim,

You don't have position A or B shown. I'll guess it comes up short because of the angle shown. In other words you hit to close to the corner. Keep in mind on this shot it is imparative to hit the 8 ball first. Any slight miss hit with even a tiny bit of rail it will come up short.
Like this -- START(
%HJ1C9%If3J4%P\2O5%QB7X0%RE6Z3%UD1X0%VJ7D5%WK8D7%X[3N9%YG4Z0
%ZJ8D0%[Y9P6%\Z3P4%]D4C8%^I2C7%eA8`5
)END

Another ingredient of this shot is it works much better at a slower speed. The c/b goes deep or longer because it has time to react. At this angle when optimum speed is exceeded the angle will up short.

This is one of those shots that BHE works well. Slow speed with lots of spin making sure to hit the 8 first. Your probably not using near the spin to make this shot work and or hitting the rail slightly before the ball. Just for the record, top has little effect, a good clean hit and lots of spin works best.

As an advanced move you can elevate the butt of your cue with center left only and swerve slightly into the 8 making the angle longer. Let us know if I assumed correct and A and B is where I put them.START(
%HJ1C9%If3J4%P\2O5%QB7X0%RE6Z3%UD1X0%VJ7D5%WK8D7%X[3N9%YG4Z0
%ZJ8D0%[Y9P6%\Z3P4%]D4C8%^I2C7%eA8`5
)END

Rod

woody_968
12-27-2004, 05:18 PM
Without watching you hit the shot its hard to tell, but I would say its like Bob said and you are not striking the cueball where you think you are.

You could be hitting too low on the cueball, and not getting as much forward roll.

Or you could be hitting a little off center and deflecting the cueball. The reason I mention this is because where you are saying you are hitting the rail (A or B) almost looks like the cueball is hitting the rail before it hits the object ball. You could still be making the ball this way, but the reaction of the cueball afterwards would be totally different than what you expect.

Just a thought.

Woody

stickman
12-27-2004, 05:30 PM
Rod, I hope I fixed the diagram and included the A &amp; B. Anyway, I miss the short rail and either scratch in the opposite corner pocket or just past the pocket to the long rail. It comes off more like a stun when I try to shoot it with speed. This shot is just one of many examples I could use. When I shoot follow with speed, my cueball trac goes wide of my intended trac. It goes where I want if I shoot softly.

Bob_Jewett
12-27-2004, 05:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr>
http://www.snapfish.com/share/p=241271104192398250/l=39324198/otsc=SYE/otsi=SALB <hr /></blockquote>
That works, thanks. (That site has annoying pop-ups but I know how to block them.)

What you show is played not with follow, usually, but rather with running english, in this case left, or inside. You should be able to easily get to the other end cushion with nothing but left. If you want to practice this kind of shot, do not freeze the object ball to the cushion, as that adds an unnecessary complication to the shot. (Or you may want to practice frozen-ball shots, but they are not nearly as common as free-ball shots.)

If you want to practice just your follow, place an object ball six inches out from the side pocket, and the cue ball behind the line for a nearly straight-in shot. Pocket the object ball in the foot pocket and follow to the foot cushion and back to the head cushion. This is a much better test of pure follow than the shot you have diagrammed.

For follow and english practice, I like this shot: put the cue ball on the head spot, and the object ball half way to a side pocket and straight in-line. Move the object ball an inch towards the nearer side cushion, making the shot not quite straight in. Now play the shot with running follow, and go three cushions to get back to the kitchen. With good stroke, you can hit the head cushion as your fifth rail, or sometimes the fourth rail on screwy tables.

Bob_Jewett
12-27-2004, 05:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> ... This shot is just one of many examples I could use. When I shot follow with speed, my cueball trac goes wide of my intended trac. It goes where I want if I shoot softly. <hr /></blockquote>
I suspect that side spin is complicating your shot. Are you using left english? If so, with a harder shot, there will be less swerve, and you will hit the cushion well before the ball. Then the cue ball will come straight across the table, even though you might pocket the object ball.

Move the object ball off the cushion. That will let you see the mistake in aim.

tateuts
12-27-2004, 05:49 PM
This is not a good shot to test your power follow stroke.

When you shoot a power follow shot, the thing to concentrate on is to keep your grip hand low though the stroke. Just try it and you'll see what I mean.

Chris

Rod
12-27-2004, 05:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> Rod, I hope I fixed the diagram and included the A &amp; B. Anyway, I miss the short rail and either scratch in the opposite corner pocket or just past the pocket to the long rail. It comes off more like a stun when I try to shoot it with speed. This shot is just one of many examples I could use. When I shot follow with speed, my cueball trac goes wide of my intended trac. It goes where I want if I shoot softly. <hr /></blockquote>

Jim, I think you mean short, speed causes this, at this angle. The c/b hits near the opposite corner or above, instead of hitting the short rail closer to the center. With firm stroke and lots of follow you might get something like this. START(
%HJ1C9%If3J4%P\2O5%Q[4^9%R]0^9%Ub6C9%VG0[3%WK8D7%X[3N9%YC4X1
%ZG2[3%[Y9P6%\Z3P4%]D4C8%^I2C7%eA8`5%_C7V7%`I0N0%aJ8D0
)END

Problem is to make the c/b react this way it travels way to far.

How are you with this shot? START(
%AO0C9%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I s1O6%Pg2O6
%Ul1F4%Vi5C5%WP3D4%Xf6P0%YD0S2%ZP1D1%[J0Z7%\C9T1%]h8D0%^K0[4
%eA2`7
)END

I consider this a slow med speed shot. Just lots of spin, hit the ball sweet and the english brings it back up table. It really takes off on the third rail. I like these shots so I hit them well. I'll mention even at a slower speed I follow thru quite far. There is no hit in these shots, the cue glides through.

Rod

stickman
12-27-2004, 06:00 PM
I'll perfect this shot at the poolhall if it takes all day, or even a couple of days. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I've simple avoided shooting these types of shots, and used another route, because I never hit them well. I have to get my table at home one of these days. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Sid_Vicious
12-28-2004, 12:19 AM
"When I shoot it slow and smooth it works fine, but when I try to shoot it with speed it reacts like a stun shot."

Buddy Dennis fixed this problem for me years ago by teaching that unlike the long follow thru extension of the draw shot, you only need to maintain a longer contact on the CB during the follow stroke by using a far shorter period of contact. I too was stunning everything I was hitting with follow until I incorporated what Buddy taught me during that lesson and it was startling to me just how much distance I was able to get with the "shallow" amount of force. A smooth, fluid stroke is a must and excessive power which I associated with a draw stroke was a no-no. Maybe this isn't what you were looking for, so excuse me if I'm talking out of the box on this one...sid

dr_dave
12-28-2004, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr>The problem is my follow stroke. When I shoot it slow and smooth it works fine, but when I try to shoot it with speed it reacts like a stun shot. I don't know if the cueball slides off the object ball or what. I've always just used another shot.<hr /></blockquote>
Others have commented on your stroke and cue ball contact point. I assume you know how speed affects the cue ball path (i.e., how long the cue ball persists along the tangent line before it curves). If not, my March, 2005 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) summarizes and illustrates the effect of speed on the 90 and 30 degree rules.

poolboy
12-29-2004, 03:47 PM
I know what it is! I recently helped a friend (a very good shooter) who had this same problem. Make sure you are using a level cue, especially off the rail. When hittting it harder, he had a tendency to raise the butt of his cue...thus causing the ball to jump ever so slightly. I bet you are losing some of the "action" because of the little hop.

He's still working on it but has gotten much better.