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LBBill
01-02-2005, 04:09 PM
For all those that have it figured out, when one ball collides with another, and "this" (outcome) is supposed to happen well, did you ever see Efren do a shot and wonder what the heck he did? Well long ago I read an article by some math/physics guru that said the "collisions" and their outcomes can be changed "abnormally" up to 20% due to the stroke of the player imparting the impact on the cue ball. So if you think you have it all figured out, realize when you get to that level the balls start "telling" you what you can and cannot do. Thought you'd like to know.

randyg
01-02-2005, 05:05 PM
I bet Mr. Newton would like to see that happen.....SPF-randyg

wantsumrice
01-02-2005, 09:09 PM
I'm confused...Explain a little more thoroughly please?

SpiderMan
01-03-2005, 03:06 PM
That didn't make sense to me. Can you give an example of what you're talking about?

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr> For all those that have it figured out, when one ball collides with another, and "this" (outcome) is supposed to happen well, did you ever see Efren do a shot and wonder what the heck he did? Well long ago I read an article by some math/physics guru that said the "collisions" and their outcomes can be changed "abnormally" up to 20% due to the stroke of the player imparting the impact on the cue ball. So if you think you have it all figured out, realize when you get to that level the balls start "telling" you what you can and cannot do. Thought you'd like to know. <hr /></blockquote>

LBBill
01-03-2005, 07:28 PM
When two balls collide, there reaction is predictable (I don't want to get into,dirt, moisture, cloth etc.), its just that as one's swing develops and you are able to make the cue ball do more on its way too the object ball, you also increase your ability to steer or control the object balls path.

DavidMorris
01-03-2005, 07:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr> When two balls collide, there reaction is predictable (I don't want to get into,dirt, moisture, cloth etc.), its just that as one's swing develops and you are able to make the cue ball do more on its way too the object ball, you also increase your ability to steer or control the object balls path. <hr /></blockquote>
Well, certainly, such well-known phenomenon like throw, swerve, transferred english, etc. are known and utilized by any good player, but the laws of physics apply equally to everybody (okay, well maybe not Patrick/One). I don't see how Efrin can "steer" an object ball better than me or anybody else assuming we hit the same contact point and apply the same spin. Obviously the difference between Efrin and me is his consistency of stroke, speed control, eye for the game, natural talent, etc. but at that moment when two balls collide, they are going to react the same for everybody. So I'm not sure I follow your theory.

Sid_Vicious
01-04-2005, 05:38 AM
I concur. Many years ago before formal training in this game, I had developed confidence in back cuts that I truly feel were beyond the 90 degree(dictated by physics theory) by using a home made, jacked up, inside masse style stroke. I couldn't play much more finesse pool at the time, but I somehow found that shot made with that stroke. I haven't kept the selection of that shot over the years since BIH and safeties came into my game so I'd have to start over again to learn it and produce results, but at the time I felt it defied physics yet it went down for me. Efren does some things with the cue that simulates that as well, and I wonder if he's doing much the same thing, only honed to consistency because he makes his living with this game. How many times have you heard the expression after a pocketed extreme cut, "That shot isn't supposed to go"...well if you watch Efren long enough you'll see many of them(IMO.) That proficiency is what I feel keeps separating the best of the best. Fundamentals and knowledge is the building blocks alright, but it's my opinion that the creative masters, especially the Philippinos, "make" shots happen that most of us never will, pushing apparently past physics sometimes(imo), purely by their imagination and confidence and manufactured by their amazing cuemanship, unlike the pure fundamentalists of this game. Jm2c...sid~~~does not

Deeman2
01-04-2005, 07:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I concur. Many years ago before formal training in this game, I had developed confidence in back cuts that I truly feel were beyond the 90 degree(dictated by physics theory) by using a home made, jacked up, inside masse style stroke. I couldn't play much more finesse pool at the time, but I somehow found that shot made with that stroke. I haven't kept the selection of that shot over the years since BIH and safeties came into my game so I'd have to start over again to learn it and produce results, but at the time I felt it defied physics yet it went down for me. Efren does some things with the cue that simulates that as well, and I wonder if he's doing much the same thing, only honed to consistency because he makes his living with this game. How many times have you heard the expression after a pocketed extreme cut, "That shot isn't supposed to go"...well if you watch Efren long enough you'll see many of them(IMO.) That proficiency is what I feel keeps separating the best of the best. Fundamentals and knowledge is the building blocks alright, but it's my opinion that the creative masters, especially the Philippinos, "make" shots happen that most of us never will, pushing apparently past physics sometimes(imo), purely by their imagination and confidence and manufactured by their amazing cuemanship, unlike the pure fundamentalists of this game. Jm2c...sid~~~does not <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Respectfully, to Efren and all you other guys. Physics works the same in most conditions on this planet. If you cut a ball more than 90 degrees, you may have curved the ball into that path but in essence, the object ball departs from the cue ball on a predictable path and it aint magic, although some players make it look like it is.

I defy anyone to show us any shot in enough detail that can't be rationally explained. Of course, I except certain shots I saw Ed Taylor make back inthe 70's and 80's but it was my lack of vision not magic or voodoo that caused this wonder.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

Deeman

bomber
01-04-2005, 08:25 AM
i agree...its all in the stroke. there are certain things you CAN do with pool balls and there are things that you CANNOT do with pool balls. In my opinion, like the other fellas said, everyone has equal oppurtunity to make pool balls react the way that they do. The difference is in the stroke of the player and nothing more. If Efren and I play a shot exactly the same the outcome will be the same. However, he has a much better stroke and is able to do more with the balls that I. It aint magic...its talent.

PQQLK9
01-04-2005, 08:37 AM
Mike Massey comes to mind. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bomber
01-04-2005, 08:44 AM
If you have a Ph.D in math or physics, this is all explained scientifically at http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~penningt/262/ps/apapp.pdf

Its a 109 page pdf file that is tough to understand but explains the physics of pool perfectly.

Deeman2
01-04-2005, 09:20 AM
Ouch! That makes my head hurt! Don't ever post anything that complicated again or I'll throw a nine ball at you... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Deeman

bomber
01-04-2005, 11:01 AM
i told ya that you would need a phd...my degree is in history so i have no clue at most of it!!!!!!!!! who am i kidding, i have no clue about any of it! lol

Bob_Jewett
01-04-2005, 05:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LBBill:</font><hr> ... as one's swing develops and you are able to make the cue ball do more on its way too the object ball, you also increase your ability to steer or control the object balls path. <hr /></blockquote>
Absolutely correct, LBBill. When I'm in stroke, my favorite game is 14.1 played as rotation one pocket (all the balls hit in rotation into one pocket) without the cue ball touching a cushion. (And I feel badly if I have to bank a ball.) I have run several racks of this. Of course, it was in Virtual Pool, but that's just a minor matter of physical implementation.

But I suspect that what you are referring to is swerve and throw. You should get someone to show you how to use these two very useful phenomena in game situations. They aren't for every shot (or for every player), but if you master them, I think your game will improve by a lot more than the 20% mentioned in the title.