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jjinfla
01-02-2005, 05:14 PM
From a collector's point of view, which cue, each with a current price of $2500, would have the best chance of increasing in value over the years?

Jake

Barbara
01-02-2005, 05:26 PM
Jake,

Richard Black makes some cues that I believe are just for pure art form more than being a playable cue. I see these yearly at the Super Billiards Expo. They're gorgeous, but how do they play?

OTOH, I know SouthWest makes very playable cues that are not as decorative as RB's cues.

Unless you can afford a 6-figure art collection, go for the playable cues as I believe these will be worth more in the long run.

Barbara

JimS
01-02-2005, 06:44 PM
I think that the South West's will hold value the longest...but I am biased (I have a few to sell /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

Jimmy B
01-03-2005, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> From a collector's point of view, which cue, each with a current price of $2500, would have the best chance of increasing in value over the years?

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Barb is 1/2 right, she's right when she says to go with the "hit" I think the SW will not only hold value but will be much easier to sell down the road. She's wrong about the 6 figure thing, the trouble is the high end cue market is such a small market it's hard to move certain cues (Living cue makers) Anyone who wants to buy a cue as an investment is a fool. Buy what you like in the way of hit and looks and be happy, never try to think of it as an investment and you'll never be let down.

JB <font color="purple"> </font color>

Pelican
01-03-2005, 02:22 PM
Sorry to disargee Jimmy but if you know what to buy they do appreciate. I have already turned down a nice profit on my Richard Black 30th Anniversary and it has been out less than a year. Cues like this made in limited numbers (this was a total of 30) appreciate the day the maker ships them.

Pel

Fred Agnir
01-03-2005, 03:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> Sorry to disargee Jimmy but if you know what to buy they do appreciate. <hr /></blockquote> I don't think that's what Jimmy said.

Fred

Chris Cass
01-03-2005, 03:09 PM
Hi Fred,

A cue is only worth what the buyer will pay for it. Like the Dow. It only matters when buying and selling. I get a kick out of some that get a rush when the market moves in one direction or another. I probably don't make any sence to anyone but I think of this stuff in it's easiest form. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards,

C.C.

dg-in-centralpa
01-03-2005, 03:10 PM
Barbara - I bought a Black "Bushka" model at Valley Forge several years ago. I use this to play with all the time. The hit is great and well balanced. This cost me $1495 at the time. This is low end for a Black cue. Now it retails at $1700 according to his website. I can't compare to a Southwest as I've never owned nor played with one. If anyone is willing to loan me one for a week...hahaha.

DG - would buy another Black just because

Pelican
01-03-2005, 04:16 PM
Based it on this from his post:
"Anyone who wants to buy a cue as an investment is a fool."

Oh, I believe my 30th Anniv Black is a good investment.

Pelican
01-03-2005, 04:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>

A cue is only worth what the buyer will pay for it.

<hr /></blockquote>

Chris, that applies to everything in the world. If everyone on earth would be willing to ride a horse the price of gasoline would plummet. But the price of hay would sky rocket /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif. .......... Can't win /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Later, Pel

Fred Agnir
01-03-2005, 06:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> Based it on this from his post:
"Anyone who wants to buy a cue as an investment is a fool."

Oh, I believe my 30th Anniv Black is a good investment. <hr /></blockquote> Both statements aren't opposites.

Argue that you aren't a fool for investing in a stick. Don't bother arguing whether or not the cue will appreciate. Jimmy wasn't talking about cue appreciation/depreciation. He was talking about the foolishness of investing in cues.

There are collectors, investors, and a combination of both. The industry and fan base is so small compared to other industries that collect &amp; invest that to buy cues as investments, IMO, makes little sense. Do you have an opposing view?

There are, IMO, a few investment-quality cues, but to "invest" in say, a $3000 cue, what does that get? What's the investment return? Or are we redefining "investment"? Is it an investment to buy a $1400 cue just so that it reappraises at $1700 several years later? Is that an investment? Are you really investing in the Richard Black cue? Or are you collecting? Or are you just owning? Do you ever plan on selling it? Is it going to improve your net worth? Again, are you really "investing"?

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't invest in cues

Pelican
01-03-2005, 08:45 PM
"Again, are you really "investing"?"

I guess it is all in how one defines investing. Do I expect to be able to retire off it? No. Did I buy it with the idea that it would appreciate in value? Yes. To me that constitutes an investment. No different for an art collector, coin collector, vintage car collector, etc.

Hey, when I'm going to tie up a bunch of bucks I do it in my business where I know it is going to make me some money. Still, I don't mind having a few thousand in some beautiful cues that I can enjoy owning and know they are still a good 'investment' by my definition. I think that is where the whole misunderstanding came about - by definition. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Later, Pel

Fred Agnir
01-04-2005, 09:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> Did I buy it with the idea that it would appreciate in value? Yes. <hr /></blockquote>Fair enough. Given all the reasons why you buy a cue, where does "the idea that it would appreciate in value" rank? High? Low? I have to believe it's low. And its low for most if not all pool players save a dozen or so high-end collectors. Even at that, some of the highest-end collectors aren't buying them as an investment. They simply like them, which is why they're collectors and not something else.

Are people who rank it high foolish, wise or neither? Can a good case be made that using the idea of favorable market appreciation as a highly important criterion in purchasing a pool cue is a foolhardy waste? I think so. Can a good case be made that it's wise?

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks purchasing a cue as an investment is a foolish idea

Jimmy B
01-04-2005, 09:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> Sorry to disargee Jimmy but if you know what to buy they do appreciate. I have already turned down a nice profit on my Richard Black 30th Anniversary and it has been out less than a year. Cues like this made in limited numbers (this was a total of 30) appreciate the day the maker ships them.

Pel <hr /></blockquote>

I may or may not have a clue what to buy, but I do know one thing 30 cues is an awefull lot.

JB

bomber
01-04-2005, 11:21 AM
i know a little about economics as i teach economics and history...a cue does not make for a good investment...however, you can make a case that it can be considered an investment even though it is a poor one. it is possible of appreciation and depreciation just like gold, silver, mutual funds etc... when you take all the intangibles into consideration, a cue as a true economic investment is a poor one.

there are different forms of investing however. you can invest in love of the cue and for that, their is no price tag.

jjinfla
01-04-2005, 01:49 PM
Man, you guys are tough.

But you are all right, and correct too.

The aesthetic value of a collection is priceless. Especially to the owner of the collection. Being able to turn that collection into money can be painful and a lot of work. And it sure is not liquid money.

So I decided to dump the money into a 100 shares of MSFT.

Jake

GeraldG
01-04-2005, 03:42 PM
Sometimes a cue CAN be a good investment. I've bought a couple from folks that got in over their heads and couldn't pay their bets. Not really what I'd call top-end cues, mind you ...but not cheap ones either. I've bought a Schon, a Lambros and a couple of Joss cues like that. If you can buy a $1,200.00 Schon with 2 shafts and a case for $300.00, then turn around and sell it a week later for $600.00, that's a pretty good investment in my book. I still have the Lambros because I like to play with it occasionally...I got it for $150.00 the same way. My main playing cue is a Danny Tibbett custom cue (and he's in the process of building another one for me now), but if I'm traveling and don't want to risk that cue, I just take the Lambros. I sold the Joss cues and the Schon at a profit.

The Tibbett cues are high-end cues (I consider anything over $3,000.00 a high-end cue) and not something that I would buy purely for investment purposes. I buy those to play with. If they appreciate, fine...they're not really for sale.

I also have a one-of-a-kind 6-point Ebony and Ivory Esperitu with 4 shafts that I picked up in a pool room...LOTS of Ivory (even the butt plate is Ivory). It's the only real high-end cue I've bought that way. I'll probably sell it on Ebay or something.

Fred Agnir
01-04-2005, 05:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> If you can buy a $1,200.00 Schon with 2 shafts and a case for $300.00, then turn around and sell it a week later for $600.00, that's a pretty good investment in my book. <hr /></blockquote> I figured we had different definitions of "investment."

Fred

Bob C
01-04-2005, 07:09 PM
I don't think that cues are a particularly great investment at this time, however if you had put a few Szambotis, Balabushkas or Rambows away in the early 1990s and held them for several years you would not have been disappointed with their appreciation.

One of the nice things about collecting/investing in cues is that unlike stocks and bonds, you can take your cues out admire them and play with them from time to time.

Bob_Jewett
01-04-2005, 07:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I figured we had different definitions of "investment."
... <hr /></blockquote>
If I had known what it would be worth, I wouldn't have sold that Balabushka for $150 (two shafts) in 1972. And I would have thought of it as investing to keep it. I could have sold the stick in 1998 for about $30,000 if I hadn't touched it. That's about 22% compound annual growth, which is pretty good. But I don't think that Charles Schwab or Warren Buffett would consider most cue purchases even of $1500 sticks as investments.

GeraldG
01-04-2005, 08:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> If you can buy a $1,200.00 Schon with 2 shafts and a case for $300.00, then turn around and sell it a week later for $600.00, that's a pretty good investment in my book. <hr /></blockquote> I figured we had different definitions of "investment."

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Why do you say that? My definition of an investment is to put money into something with the expectation of making a profit on it later. I never said it was a long-term, big money investment. In fact I said that I didn't think that high-end cues were a good investment, in most cases. If they do appreciate, then most times it is difficult to find a buyer that is willing to pay enough for the cue to give you your profit. Plus, the appreciation may be very slow if it happens at all. But, if you buy something one week and double your money on it a week later, is that not an investment and then a 100% return on that investment? What is your definition of an investment?

I know of an original Balabushka for sale right now (if anyone is interested, I can put you on it tomorrow). It has 3 shafts with it but only 1 one them is original and it's cracked. The other 2 were made by Danny Tibbett to match. The butt is in great shape. It has the rings that change color as you turn it in the light. I had it in my hands last Tuesday. The guy started out trying to get $75,000.00 for it, realized very quickly that wasn't going to happen, then put it on Ebay trying to get $30,000.00 for it. The highest bid that he got was $12,000.00 and it didn't meet his reserve, so it didn't sell. could probably pick it up for the $12,000.00 tomorrow. At that price, it MIGHT be a good investment if you have the time to try to sell it. You might be able to get $20,000.00 out of it eventually, but it might take a long time to find a buyer for it. And, you might not find a buyer for it. That, to me, is not wise investing. However, the guy that owns it bought it from George Balabushka in the '60's and has had it since then. He owned a pool hall in New York and bought it to play with, so it wasn't bought as an investment for him. It has all of the documentation with it.

bomber
01-05-2005, 07:17 AM
an investment is to acquire a good/service in hopes of a benefit to the buyer, normally monetarily. so you can consider a cue an investment, but normally a poor one. cues as a whole have a high rate of depreciation. granted, if you can buy the right cue at the right time it can turn a profit but the cue market has a low demand therefore, technically speaking, has a low rate of return as a whole. also, cues are a HIGH risk investment making them a poor investment as well. these risks include theft, damage to the wood, increasing numbers of cuemakers, and normally a high initial purchase price for normally a low return rate.

in some circumstances you can get a steal on a cue and sell it for much higher. while buying a 1200 schonn for 300 bucks and reselling at a later date is technically an investment it is in reallity more like stealing or taking advantage of someones misfortune. in a way, this contradicts the economic definition of investment.

dooziexx
01-05-2005, 08:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> From a collector's point of view, which cue, each with a current price of $2500, would have the best chance of increasing in value over the years?

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake,
Heres my take. If you want to invest in a SouthWest, go for a Franklin era SouthWest or one that has inlays. Those will at least hold their value for now but I think will appreciate in time due to the limited amount of Jerry's cues available.

On the other hand, I would invest in Richard Black too because he is a well-known cue maker and he is old.. If he goes, I think his cues will appreciate. Plus he does all the cue work by himself and his wife.

Just me 2cents.

DavidMorris
01-05-2005, 09:05 AM
---- WE INTERRUPT THIS DEBATE TO BRING YOU A COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC QUESTION FOR DOOZIEXX ----

Erik, did you ever get a PM from me back before Christmas? You took a break from the board for a couple weeks just as I sent it, and since you've been back I hadn't seen a reply so I was wondering if there was a problem with your PM box or something.

---- WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED INVESTMENT DEBATE ---- /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> in some circumstances you can get a steal on a cue and sell it for much higher. while buying a 1200 schonn for 300 bucks and reselling at a later date is technically an investment it is in reallity more like stealing or taking advantage of someones misfortune. in a way, this contradicts the economic definition of investment. <hr /></blockquote>

How do you figure that? A guy comes up to you in a poolroom and asks you to buy his cue for $300.00. That's stealing? I don't get it. He offers the cue for sale, he sets the price. How in the world is that stealing? The fact that he bet more on a game than he could cover is NOT misfortune. It was a decision he made. I pay him what he wants for the cue (if it's a price I can pay at the moment and it's not too high for the cue), or I just tell him "No, thanks." I figure that by buying the cue from him, I'm helping him out of a jam the HE got HIMSELF into. What would you suggest? Give him the money to pay his bad bets? I also figure that what I do with the cue after I buy it is my business. I own it at that point, I bought and paid for it. In EVERY case, I have given these guys the option of buying the cue back at the same price when they get their next paycheck. NONE have ever come and bought it back. The guy with the Schon TOLD me to go ahead and sell it because he wasn't going to have the money to get it back. I'm not a freakin' bank or pawn shop, I'm not going to hold the cue for them forever. Remember, they come to ME to buy the cue. I never go to them offering to buy it. I don't see any contradiction at all. How many people have found themselves in a bad financial situation and dumped stock, then the buyer turned around and sold it at a higher price? Would that be considered contradictory to the economic definition of investment? Did the buyer of the stock steal anything? It's called capitalism...free enterprise. It's the way our economy works.

bomber
01-05-2005, 10:55 AM
yes, we all have read Wealth of Nations. i understand your point but you must understand that you cant really discuss the two things, cues and stocks, in the same terms. we all have agreed that a cue can be considered an investment technically and we all understand the darwinism behind buying the cue from the guy who lost his ass. but, if you consider that truly investing then killing someone so you can collect their insurance money is investing. it just really isnt the same thing.

investing has an economic conotation that surrounds it. make a few hundred bucks off a cue aint really it.

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> yes, we all have read Wealth of Nations. i understand your point but you must understand that you cant really discuss the two things, cues and stocks, in the same terms. we all have agreed that a cue can be considered an investment technically and we all understand the darwinism behind buying the cue from the guy who lost his ass. but, if you consider that truly investing then killing someone so you can collect their insurance money is investing. it just really isnt the same thing.

investing has an economic conotation that surrounds it. make a few hundred bucks off a cue aint really it. <hr /></blockquote>

That made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Who says that you can't discuss cues and stocks in the same terms? You? Who are you? An economics professor? If you buy something and resell it for a profit, then it was an INVESTMENT. Point me to some economic reference that says "investing in a thing under X dollars is not investing". If a store owner buys $500.00 worth of goods and then sells those goods for $750.00, did he not invest his money and then enjoy a return on his investment?

What about a company that "invests" money in training an employee with the expectaion that that employee will later produce revenue for the company, thus provide a "return" on the "investment"? Does that qualify as a true investment in your world?

What if the guy had taken his cue to a pawn shop? He might get $100.00 for it if it was a $1,000.00 cue. Then, if he doesn't pick it up (redeem the pawn slip), the pawn shop sells it for $500.00 or more. Did the pawn shop steal something from him? Or, did he make a conscious decision to walk in to the pawn shop and ask the operator to give him money in exchange to the cue? In my case, it was not a loan (as it would be in a pawn shop), the cues were not collateral. They were an ouright sale. Nonetheless, I offered them a chance to buy back.

What has Darwinism to do with this? Charles Darwin was the author of several papers including "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection". It discusses his theories of evolution and how differing species evolved and explains things like convergent evolution, etc. It is mainly concerned with his findings on the Islands of Galapagos and comparisons of finches, tortoises, iguanas, etc. found there. "Darwinism" is a modern term used to describe the beliefs that went into this treatise and discussion including "Survival of the fittest". It has absolutely not one thing to do with economics.

Killing someone for insurance is about as far removed from buying and reselling a cue as you can get. You are comparing apples with Yugos. If you kill someone to collect insurance, you have committed murder. Buying and reselling a cue is no different from buying and reselling a car or lawnmower or whatever. The motivation of the seller doesn't really enter into the equation, technically. Please explain how you draw this parallel.

You STILL haven't explained how it's "stealing" or, for that matter, how it's different from buying and reselling stocks. If I (or anyone) waited until the guy's back was turned, picked the cue up and walked out of the pool hall with it and then sold it, THAT would be "stealing" it.

Your arguments make no sense and hold no water thus far. Please come up with something better.

bomber
01-05-2005, 11:58 AM
forget it...you will never understand and i do not wish to argue economics on a pool forum, even though i teach economics every day and play pool everyday. you sound like one of my students lol. you simply know more than me i guess. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> forget it...you will never understand and i do not wish to argue economics on a pool forum, even though i teach economics every day and play pool everyday. you sound like one of my students lol. you simply know more than me i guess. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hey, I'll never argue your expertise in either area, especially pool. What works for me may or may not work for you, and you are probably twice the pool player I am. When it comes to Biology/Zoology I could probably hold my own. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I just don't particularly appreciate being called a thief because I bought a cue from someone that wanted to sell it to me and being compared to someone who would commit murder-for-money.

bomber
01-05-2005, 12:18 PM
no one called you a theif or is accusing you of theivery and i dont really care who can play better or who is smarter. i dont want to get into a pissing contest with ya, i have studied economics a great deal and teach it daily. i was offering my viewpoint. i will keep my opinions to myself if you would like...i enjoy having intelligent debate but what was an intelligent debate is now being taken personally and i dont wish to participate.

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 12:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> no one called you a theif or is accusing you of theivery and i dont really care who can play better or who is smarter. i dont want to get into a pissing contest with ya, i have studied economics a great deal and teach it daily. i was offering my viewpoint. i will keep my opinions to myself if you would like...i enjoy having intelligent debate but what was an intelligent debate is now being taken personally and i dont wish to participate. <hr /></blockquote>

Fair enough.

Popcorn
01-05-2005, 01:29 PM
That is not an investment, it is just buying something for below market value and sitting on it till you can sell it for the right price. Investments usually have an element of risk involved and can go either way. I don't know about the value of the Balabushka you are talking about. Not many have sold for that kind of money.

Popcorn
01-05-2005, 01:37 PM
Are Balabushka cues really selling for that kind of money? Are there any examples of recent sales that are setting the market for them?.

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> That is not an investment, it is just buying something for below market value and sitting on it till you can sell it for the right price. Investments usually have an element of risk involved and can go either way. I don't know about the value of the Balabushka you are talking about. Not many have sold for that kind of money. <hr /></blockquote>

From dictionary.com:

inˇvestˇment ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-vstmnt)
n.
The act of investing.
An amount invested.
Property or another possession acquired for future financial return or benefit.
A commitment, as of time or support.
A military siege.
Archaic.
A garment; a vestment.
An outer covering or layer

From Encarta:

investment




inˇvestˇment [ in véstm&amp;#601;nt ] (plural inˇvestˇments)


noun

1. finance use of money for future profit: the outlay of money, for example, by depositing it in a bank or by buying stock in a company, with the object of making a profit


2. finance money invested: an amount of money invested in something for the purpose of making a profit


3. finance something invested in: something such as a company, endeavor, or object that money is invested in with the goal of making a profit



From Merriam-Websters:

Main Entry: 2investment
Function: noun
Etymology: 2invest
: the outlay of money usually for income or profit : capital outlay; also : the sum invested or the property purchased

Looks like it qualifies to me. There is no requirement that there is a risk for an investment to be an investment. Usually, there is some amount of risk and cues are certainly no different.

You are right about the Balabushka, though. I think the owner heard of one selling at one of the big auction houses (Sotheby's or Christies) for $75,000.00 and figured he could get that for his. It didn't work out that way (not surprisingly).

jjinfla
01-05-2005, 02:05 PM
If a person takes his $1,000 cue to a pawn shop and gets $100 for it and then the pawn broker puts it up for sale for $500 and then someone else buys it for $500. I see this as a plain business deal in which all three parties are happy.

A few weeks ago a girl sold her Josh cue for $50. Stupid? Thievery? She was fed up with it, hated it, wanted no part of it. All I can say is why wasn't I there? (Maybe her ex gave it to her and she wanted to make sure he couldn't get it.)

I have collected several things over the years, Lionel Trains, Coins, Lladros. But lately I am primarily collecting pictures of dead presidents.

Jake

Pelican
01-05-2005, 03:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Investments usually have an element of risk involved and can go either way. <hr /></blockquote>

Folks buy CD's for investment. They have no risk, unless you think we're fixin' to have another depression and the banks are gonna fail /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif