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View Full Version : Allen Hopkins tip a foul shot ?



ras314
01-04-2005, 09:23 AM
During the Skins game Allen shows a shot with the cb froze to the ob and aimed nearly at the side pocket. His advice to get the cb to the end rail was shoot straight thru the cb with a level cue. Isn't this a illegal push shot? Or am I missing something? With the balls not quite frozen he uses an elevated cue which also looks questionable.

WaltVA
01-04-2005, 09:33 AM
The illegality comes from a double hit, not a push shot - if the CB/OB are frozen together, the effect is like hitting one ball, and they both take off together, no double hit.

If they are close, but not frozen, the CB will rebound from the OB at impact, and strike the cue tip in a normal follow-through, resulting in a double hit foul. The elevated cue is actually a way of cutting down on the follow-through and avoiding the double hit.

Walt in Va

bomber
01-04-2005, 11:03 AM
alot of players will foul even if they elevate their cue...it is a pretty tough little shot for someone that does not play much

Scott Lee
01-04-2005, 11:18 AM
Roy...When the balls are frozen, the rules allow a straight through level cue stroke, like Walt described. When they're a little apart, you must elevate the cue or shoot off angle, to avoid the double hit foul. I've seen refs in Vegas miss this, and call a foul anyway. LOTS of league players don't know the difference, and it might start arguments in many situations. HTH

Scott

WaltVA
01-04-2005, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> ...I've seen refs in Vegas miss this, and call a foul anyway. LOTS of league players don't know the difference, and it might start arguments in many situations. HTH

Scott <hr /></blockquote>
MIGHT may not be the right word; it WILL start arguments 90% of the time in league play, IMO. As a ref, at least 50% of the calls I'm asked to make cover this, and one team captain or the other will want to argue whether the player executed the shot legally. Some believe that elevating the cue 45 degrees automatically means a legal shot, while others think that any shot not at an angle should be called a foul.

Someone, I think Fred A., suggested dropping this type of double hit as a foul, and just letting the player shoot. It would sure make life easier for the refs.

Walt in VA

Rich R.
01-04-2005, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WaltVA:</font><hr> Someone, I think Fred A., suggested dropping this type of double hit as a foul, and just letting the player shoot. It would sure make life easier for the refs.
<hr /></blockquote>
Walt, my local APA league has simplified it a little. If the balls are closer than the width of the chaulk cube, you must elevate your cue, or shoot at an angle, or it is an automatic foul. As long as you do that, it is automatically not a foul.
Of course, if it is determined the balls are frozen, you can shoot straight through.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-04-2005, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WaltVA:</font><hr>Someone, I think Fred A., suggested dropping this type of double hit as a foul, and just letting the player shoot. It would sure make life easier for the refs.

Walt in VA
<hr /></blockquote>

There is no enforcable rule of this type in APA, for the reasons you cite.

catscradle
01-04-2005, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote WaltVA:</font><hr>Someone, I think Fred A., suggested dropping this type of double hit as a foul, and just letting the player shoot. It would sure make life easier for the refs.

Walt in VA
<hr /></blockquote>

There is no enforcable rule of this type in APA, for the reasons you cite. <hr /></blockquote>

This is one think in the APA that drives me crazy. When somebody takes a shot with the cueball close to the object ball and the cueball takes off like a raped ape you absolutely know it is a double hit, but I've never seen it called in the APA and wouldn't dare call it myself for fear of a drunken riot starting.

jjinfla
01-04-2005, 01:32 PM
If you play in the APA, then look in the team manual, page 96, under definitions. Push shots: "...push shots will not be called in this amateur league."

But then, not many APA players bother to read the manual.

And of course this rule does not apply anywhere else.

Jake

Popcorn
01-04-2005, 01:34 PM
I think there is always going to be an argument if the player at the table does not call for an independent look to see if the cue ball is frozen or not. In fact I believe it is the shooters responsibility or it is a foul automatically. Let me ask you this, can I take ball in hand and freeze it to the object if I want? I have a trick shot I do where I freeze it to an object ball and shoot through it and pocket another ball like the first ball isn't there. It consists of splitting the angle and shooting. You appear to be aiming at nothing yet the cue ball takes a different path and pockets a ball. It is actually a straight pool shot and can come up.

You pocket the 1 in the side in this shot shooting along the path of the arrow.
START(
%A^3I5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%Eg6R8%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg6T0%Wc4J2%Xg0R8
)END

Rod
01-04-2005, 01:38 PM
Scott,

I didn't see the demo but suggesting using an elevated cue to avoid a foul may lead many people in the wrong direction. Most players, including league haven't a clue if it's a good or bad hit. I've heard it hundreds of times, "I jacked up to avoid a foul". The funny part is they fouled right in front of me and I called it a bad hit.

I don't want to see the game changed. I think people should learn the difference if they intend to play league or tournaments. However the other side of me says most people will not take the time to learn and understand the difference.

Rod

Tommy_Davidson
01-04-2005, 02:27 PM
&gt; Under PBTA rules,if the cue ball and the object ball are closer than the width of a piece of chalk,and the cue ball goes forward more than 1/2 a ball width,it's a foul unless the balls are frozen. More often than not,you can HEAR the foul,because when 2 balls are that close,simple physics demands that the cue ball stops dead instaneously,then is hit again by your still accelerating tip. I see people do this all the time around here,and I only call a foul if I know the player knows the difference. A lot of players try to use the argument that they used follow or topspin and made it "chase" the object ball down the table in an effort to swing at the 9,but this is bogus. If the cue ball draws back to you,there is no foul. If the balls are frozen and the cue balls follows the object ball slowly,it's also not a foul. If the cue ball screams forward,you know to call a foul,if you can get away with it. Tommy D.

poolboy
01-04-2005, 02:37 PM
As a BCA/ACS National referee...I may be able to shed some light on the issue.

He's probably talking about BCA/ACS rules. By these rules...if the cueball is frozen to an object ball you may shoot directly at the object ball as long as it's "a normal forward stroke." So, by those standards...it is a legal shot.

Because it is such a contentious shot, many leagues have formed their own rules in an attempt to simplify the situation.

WaltVA
01-04-2005, 02:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> Walt, my local APA league has simplified it a little. If the balls are closer than the width of the chaulk cube, you must elevate your cue, or shoot at an angle, or it is an automatic foul. As long as you do that, it is automatically not a foul.
Of course, if it is determined the balls are frozen, you can shoot straight through. <hr /></blockquote>
Rich, that's definitely a good simplification for APA league situations; wish everybody would agree on it. However, our L.O. insists on running EOS tournaments by "Vegas rules" and insists that local refs make the call based on what they see (or hear) "because that's the way it will be called in Vegas." So if there is a ref available, he or she will be asked to judge the shot, whether in a tournament or weekly match.

Walt in VA

cheesemouse
01-04-2005, 02:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
can I take ball in hand and freeze it to the object if I want? <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn,

If you have BIH and touch another ball during placement it is a foul....so you are not allowed to freeze the cb to an ob.

WaltVA
01-04-2005, 03:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> If you play in the APA, then look in the team manual, page 96, under definitions. Push shots: "...push shots will not be called in this amateur league."

But then, not many APA players bother to read the manual.

And of course this rule does not apply anywhere else.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>
The foul is not a push shot, but a double hit foul, and that is called in the APA. The "Jacksonville experiment" showed that the CB rebounding from the OB can be struck again by the cue tip with a normal follow-thru, and even with a low hit, the CB can take off at top speed after the OB. That is caused by a double hit, and will be called by an APA ref.

Walt in VA

Bob_Jewett
01-04-2005, 06:02 PM
&gt; I think there is always going to be an argument if the player at
&gt; the table does not call for an independent look to see if the cue ball is
&gt; frozen or not.

Just as with a ball frozen on the cushion, if a ball is not called frozen to the cue ball, it is not frozen.

&gt; Let me ask you this, can I take ball in hand and freeze it to the
&gt; object if I want?

No. It is always a foul to touch object balls intentionally, and placing the cue ball in contact with an object ball is touching it.

&gt; I have a trick shot I do where I freeze it to an object ball and
&gt; shoot through it and pocket another ball like the first ball isn't there.

This is explained in Byrne's "Standard Book." Martin has the shot in his book, but makes the mistake of splitting the angle rather than a distance.

The demo I like for this is to freeze an object ball on the side rail even with the foot spot. Place an object ball on the head spot. Place the cue ball on the head spot frozen to that object ball. Shoot the cue ball through the ball it's frozen to and pocket the ball on the side rail straight into the foot pocket. Actually, the cue ball and object ball pair can be placed anywhere on the head string and the aiming spot remains the same.

Bob_Jewett
01-04-2005, 06:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WaltVA:</font><hr>...
Someone, I think Fred A., suggested dropping this type of double hit as a foul, and just letting the player shoot. It would sure make life easier for the refs.
<hr /></blockquote>
Well, yes, but it brings up other problems. Here is one wording of the possible rule:

The cue ball may be struck any number of times as long as it is with one forward motion of the cue stick.

Think about that for a while and see if you can't think of some new problems that might result. Then try to reword it to solve those problems.

I think the current problem with double hit shots is mostly one of education. I think it is wrong to weaken the rule because some players are ignorant and argumentative. It would be nice if trained, competent referees were more readily available, but they seem to holed up with the hen's teeth.

HallofFame
01-04-2005, 08:59 PM
It depends on the "ref", you should always consult with him/her to see how he/she will handle push shots; if the "ref" calls a foul, it's a FOUL; it's HIS/HER decision.

Push shots have ALWAYS been a touchy subject in and out of tournaments, I believe if the cue ball is kissed to an object ball it should be played like "English" snooker; you HAVE to play AWAY from the ball; meaning, you CANNOT hit that ball at all.

HOF

Vagabond
01-05-2005, 05:36 AM
It has been played that way for many years in the PRO TOURNAMENTS and it is not a foul.
Vagabond

ras314
01-05-2005, 10:19 AM
Power has been going on and off here so I haven't had the computer on, but thanks for all the replys.

Some where I was told that a contact time "longer than usual" on the cb was a push shot and illegal under some rules. It did not require a double hit to be a foul. Also I think follow on the cb can cause the tip to bounce up and away from the cb without a double hit. I've seen some hard feelings over these questions.