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Volcom
01-04-2005, 08:54 PM
Alright guys. i need valid proof on something. My friends and I at our local pool hall have been discussing if it is possible for all 15 balls to be hit in on the break. I argued that it was possible and has happened. Does anyone have proof,Can it really happen?

DavidMorris
01-04-2005, 09:17 PM
Never heard of it happening.

Tom Rossman says here (http://www.sciencenetlinks.org/sci_update.cfm?DocID=132) says that the most he's seen off the break out of a 15-ball rack was 7. But then again he also said the most he'd seen from a 9-ball rack was 5 -- I hope he was watching a couple weeks ago when Alex P. dropped 6 on the break on ESPN. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

loofnicnad
01-05-2005, 05:32 AM
Here's an additional question....
IF... All the balls were pocketed off the break, would the sinking of the 8-Ball be legal?

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 06:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote loofnicnad:</font><hr> Here's an additional question....
IF... All the balls were pocketed off the break, would the sinking of the 8-Ball be legal? <hr /></blockquote>

I would think that would depend on which rules you were playing by. It would count as an 8-ball on the break. If an 8 on the break is a win, then it would be a win.

I made 5 balls on a 9-ball break Tuesday night. Anyone worth a darn would have been out from there...but not me! I didn't hold the cue ball in the center of the table like I should have and ended up hooked and kicking...and my opponent got out from there. I cut all the wood and he built the fire....oh, well.

One time about 4 years ago, I was playing in a little local tournament at a place called Cherokee Billiards (now defunct). It was a straight-up race to 6. I won the lag for the opening break and then broke the 9-ball in 3 times in a row, then ran the 4th rack (got lucky). My opponent BLEW UP and threw his cue across the room and stormed out to the parking lot, then came back in and picked up his cue and broke it down and left. Easiest match I ever played.

loofnicnad
01-05-2005, 07:17 AM
I regularly set up bonfire size piles of wood for my Tuesday night playing partner. lol

bomber
01-05-2005, 07:20 AM
im sure that it is technially possible but i have never heard of it happening. im sure that physics would allow it occur given the right conditions but the odds of it happening are almost nill.

DavidMorris
01-05-2005, 07:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I would think that would depend on which rules you were playing by. It would count as an 8-ball on the break. If an 8 on the break is a win, then it would be a win. <hr /></blockquote>
Gerald makes a good point there, and one that I think bears expanding on for the sake of casual pool players. Most casual barroom shooters are accustomed to "bar rules" which vary from place to place -- there are NO "official" bar rules. 8-ball, played by "official rules" is usually either played under APA or BCA rules, both of which can deviate between each other AND from typical bar rules. Which is why it's so important for two players who don't know each other to agree on the rules before the game! I've seen so many arguments over "rules" when two casual shooters are playing. It's an argument neither player can win, because there are no written rules in such a case, unless you're playing in a tournament where rules are established or where both players agree on standardized rules beforehand.

Regarding the 8-ball on the break, according APA &amp; BCA rules:

* In APA, 8-ball on the break is a win, unless you scratch, then it's a loss. APA deviates from typical bar rules by being slop rather than call-pocket, and ball-in-hand is anywhere on the table, like 9-ball, except after a foul on the break, when it's behind the headstring.

* In BCA, 8-ball on the break is spotted, or the breaker reracks and breaks again. And you do not lose by scratching when pocketing the 8-ball, whether on the break or the 8-ball shot. Non-obvious shots must be called, but not banks, caroms, or combinations -- just the called ball into the called pocket. BIH is also anywhere on the table except after the break.

Virtually all flavors of "bar rules" consider an 8 on the break as a win, and it would be a pain not to, considering most bar tables are coin-op and you can't spot the 8.

Deeman2
01-05-2005, 07:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Volcom:</font><hr> Alright guys. i need valid proof on something. My friends and I at our local pool hall have been discussing if it is possible for all 15 balls to be hit in on the break. I argued that it was possible and has happened. Does anyone have proof,Can it really happen? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> While anything MAY be possible, I'd bet it has never occured in the entire history of the game. Why? The critical movement part of the break occurs in a very short time frame, perhaps, two or three seconds at most. Just the timing of filling 15 balls into a limited amount of pockets is cutting it pretty slim, IMO. IN addition, the two pockets at the head of the table are less active and would not receive as many balls in almost all breaks. The collisions that would take place in front of the four more active pockets would make for some pretty high probablities of balls now going in, but kissing away. How many times have you seen three balls in one pocket on a break? Not often and this would probably need to occur a staggering five or so times, in the same shot! The old 15 ball shot that Jimmy Caras used to do was very "iffy" even with them all set up and evenly distributed to the pockets. I just think it is about as likely as Qtek becomeing a Republican.

This being said, anything is possible. </font color>

Deeman
broke 6 in in 9 ball but maybe, at most, 5 in 8 ball...

Volcom
01-05-2005, 06:49 PM
well guys for those of you who are still reading about this one.... i checked with guiness and the fastest time a person has made 15 balls in in like 23 seconds. So from what i hear its not possible... thanks for the help though

Scott Lee
01-05-2005, 09:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DavidMorris:</font><hr> * In BCA, 8-ball on the break is spotted, or the breaker reracks and breaks again. And you do not lose by scratching when pocketing the 8-ball, whether on the break or the 8-ball shot. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually David, it IS a loss. BCA rules 4.19 and 4.20 specifically state that pocketing the 8 and scratching the CB, in the same shot, is loss of game...except on the break.

Regarding pocketing all 15 balls...it has never been done legally. You can't expend enough energy in the break to keep all the balls on the table, and going around the table long enough for all of them to find pockets. Years ago, trick shot artist Norm "Farmer" Webber used to pocket all 15 balls off the break. However, he used two broomsticks to 'channel' the balls into the pockets. There is, of course, the 15 ball trick shot, which is a very specific set up, and difficult to execute perfectly. That's why you rarely see it in exhibitions, and never in competition. If you hang up a ball or two (easy to do), you invalidate the shot (even though pocketing 13 out of 15 is SPECTACULAR, imo!). Jeanette Lee does the 15 ball shot in a tv commercial she did for Imperial pool tables. I bet it took more than a couple of "takes"! LOL Sure does look cool when they all go!

Scott Lee /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DavidMorris
01-05-2005, 09:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Actually David, it IS a loss. BCA rules 4.19 and 4.20 specifically state that pocketing the 8 and scratching the CB, in the same shot, is loss of game...except on the break.<hr /></blockquote>
Yes, scratching AND pocketing the 8 on the same shot is a loss -- I should have been more clear. What I meant to say is that scratching while shooting at the 8 but not pocketing it is NOT a loss, according to 4.19:
[ QUOTE ]
4.19 PLAYING THE 8-BALL
When the 8-ball is the legal object ball, a scratch or foul is not loss of game if the 8-ball is not pocketed or jumped from the table. Incoming player has cue ball in hand. Note: A combination shot can never be used to legally pocket the 8-ball, except when the 8-ball is the first ball contacted in the shot sequence. <hr /></blockquote>
Virtually every house/bar rule game of 8-ball I've ever played called a foul of any sort while shooting at the 8-ball a loss, as does APA. I was just pointing out that it isn't a universal rule. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott Lee
01-05-2005, 10:10 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif alrighty then! LOL

DavidMorris
01-05-2005, 10:16 PM
Good catch, by the way, Scott. I have no idea why I used the word "pocketing" instead of "shooting." /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I seem to be doing that kind of thing a lot today...

Scott Lee
01-05-2005, 10:20 PM
Well, you can "shoot" a ball and miss...but you CAN'T miss a ball you "pocket"! LOL

Scott ~ it be da same ting mon!

Wally_in_Cincy
01-06-2005, 08:13 AM
Fran Crimi said when she was a technical advisor for "Carlito's Way" the director asked her if she knew a way to pocket all 15 balls on the break.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif