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superstroke
01-05-2005, 05:45 AM
Does anybody like looking at the cue ball last on thin cuts, sometimes even long shots when the cue ball is on the rail froze, seems to work good looking at the cb last. And when I say last I mean stroking it maybe 3 times just looking at the cb.....your thoughts

randyg
01-05-2005, 05:52 AM
No. Should I be...SPF-randyg

superstroke
01-05-2005, 06:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> No. Should I be...SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Try it, if your percentage goes up, then your answer is yes.

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 06:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote superstroke:</font><hr> Does anybody like looking at the cue ball last on thin cuts, sometimes even long shots when the cue ball is on the rail froze, seems to work good looking at the cb last. And when I say last I mean stroking it maybe 3 times just looking at the cb.....your thoughts <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know about that...I guess if it works for you, then "whatever works". I prefer to have my eye on the contact point of the object ball at the time of the stroke. I don't really treat any shot any different from any other shot as far as preshot routine and the actual execution of the shot. That may be right or it may be wrong..I dunno, but it works for me. I find my aiming point, then my line from the cue ball to the aiming point, then I get down on the shot on the line from the cue ball to the aiming point. Then when I execute the shot, my eye is glued to the aiming point.

superstroke
01-05-2005, 06:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote superstroke:</font><hr> Does anybody like looking at the cue ball last on thin cuts, sometimes even long shots when the cue ball is on the rail froze, seems to work good looking at the cb last. And when I say last I mean stroking it maybe 3 times just looking at the cb.....your thoughts <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know about that...I guess if it works for you, then "whatever works". I prefer to have my eye on the contact point of the object ball at the time of the stroke. I don't really treat any shot any different from any other shot as far as preshot routine and the actual execution of the shot. That may be right or it may be wrong..I dunno, but it works for me. I find my aiming point, then my line from the cue ball to the aiming point, then I get down on the shot on the line from the cue ball to the aiming point. Then when I execute the shot, my eye is glued to the aiming point. <hr /></blockquote>

Where's your aiming point on a tough cut, ob is close to the rail?

Sid_Vicious
01-05-2005, 07:15 AM
Depends on whether I an putting any english, then I do look at my CB, or a combination thereof...sid

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote superstroke:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote superstroke:</font><hr> Does anybody like looking at the cue ball last on thin cuts, sometimes even long shots when the cue ball is on the rail froze, seems to work good looking at the cb last. And when I say last I mean stroking it maybe 3 times just looking at the cb.....your thoughts <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know about that...I guess if it works for you, then "whatever works". I prefer to have my eye on the contact point of the object ball at the time of the stroke. I don't really treat any shot any different from any other shot as far as preshot routine and the actual execution of the shot. That may be right or it may be wrong..I dunno, but it works for me. I find my aiming point, then my line from the cue ball to the aiming point, then I get down on the shot on the line from the cue ball to the aiming point. Then when I execute the shot, my eye is glued to the aiming point. <hr /></blockquote>

Where's your aiming point on a tough cut, ob is close to the rail? <hr /></blockquote>

If the OB is on the rail or very close to the rail, I may pick a point on the rail itself for an aiming point. I try to imagine the cueball sitting in the position it should be in when it contacts the OB. If I can't get a good eyeball on the contact point on the OB, then I try to pick a spot on the cushion to aim for that will put the cueball where it needs to be. Using left or right spin on these shots gets very tricky. You have to compensate for the deviation from a straight path that the english is going to cause. Sometimes you have to spin the ball one way or another on these shots to avaoid a scratch in the corner at the end of the table where you're shooting from. Really, the only thing you can do to learn these shots is to practice them over and over and over and pay attention to what works and what doesn't. If you just shoot the shot and don't watch carefully what happened, then all the practice in the world isn't going to help. You have to shoot the shot, watch where the cueball actually hit and then analyze what happened, and make any adjustments you need to make. In general, you should shoot these really thin cuts with a fairly soft stroke because the cueball is going to travel, the thinner the cut the further the cueball travels. You want to avoid turning loose of the cueball any more than you have to.

What I know for sure is that I can't hit what I can't see. If I'm looking at the cueball when I stroke, then I can't see the object ball.

If you are lined up correctly on your shot and all of your basics are good...stance, stroke, etc. then you shouldn't have to think about the cueball too much. I decide on spin, etc., before I ever line up for the shot. Once I line up on the shot and check how I'm cued up on the cueball, then I forget about the cueball and concentrate on the onject ball.

DavidMorris
01-05-2005, 11:48 AM
I don't know of any player that looks at the CB last only on thin cuts -- either they always look at the CB last, or the OB last.

Which one is a long-running debate in some pool circles. I think the majority of players, either by nature or by instruction, look back and forth during the pre-shot routine but settle on the object ball as the cueball is struck. However there is a group that advocate looking at the CB as the tip makes contact. Our very own Scott Lee is one of them, or at least he was 18 months ago when I spent a day with him. I believe Allison Fisher might also keep her eyes on the CB as hits it.

Bob_Jewett
01-05-2005, 12:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DavidMorris:</font><hr>... I believe Allison Fisher might also keep her eyes on the CB as hits it. <hr /></blockquote>
Allison has very predictable, consistent eye movement as far as I have observed, and I believe that on normal shots, she never, ever even considers looking at the cue ball when the tip hits the ball.

DavidMorris
01-05-2005, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote DavidMorris:</font><hr>... I believe Allison Fisher might also keep her eyes on the CB as hits it. <hr /></blockquote>
Allison has very predictable, consistent eye movement as far as I have observed, and I believe that on normal shots, she never, ever even considers looking at the cue ball when the tip hits the ball. <hr /></blockquote>
You're probably right, Bob, I'm sure it's somebody else I'm thinking of. I just recall when Scott and I were discussing it he mentioned a well-known pro that does it, and I was thinking it was her for some reason.

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote DavidMorris:</font><hr>... I believe Allison Fisher might also keep her eyes on the CB as hits it. <hr /></blockquote>
Allison has very predictable, consistent eye movement as far as I have observed, and I believe that on normal shots, she never, ever even considers looking at the cue ball when the tip hits the ball. <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, I just went and watched some video of her playing Karen Corr (at least the part of the tape that my wife didn't record "The OC" over). She certainly appears to be looking at the object ball at the time she executes the stroke. I did notice something about her, though. Her stance. She looks like she has both feet pointed directly at the object ball...or maybe it's just the angle of view that I had. Boy, what a smooth, clean stroke.

Bob_Jewett
01-05-2005, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr>...
Yeah, I just went and watched some video of her playing Karen Corr (at least the part of the tape that my wife didn't record "The OC" over). She certainly appears to be looking at the object ball at the time she executes the stroke. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Watch again and notice exactly when in the shot her eyes move from the cue ball to the object ball. It's a major part of her shot routine.

DavidMorris
01-05-2005, 01:08 PM
Allison and Karen both, coming from European snooker, use the stiff-legged, square-facing stance popular in snooker instead of the leading leg stance that most American pool players use.

I'm 6'2, if I locked my legs, squared off, and bent over that far, I'd wrench my back and rip my pants... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 01:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr>...
Yeah, I just went and watched some video of her playing Karen Corr (at least the part of the tape that my wife didn't record "The OC" over). She certainly appears to be looking at the object ball at the time she executes the stroke. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Watch again and notice exactly when in the shot her eyes move from the cue ball to the object ball. It's a major part of her shot routine. <hr /></blockquote>

OK, it looks like she looks at the cueball briefly after she gets down on the shot, maybe a practice stroke there, then looks at the object ball and fixes on it and makes the stroke. Is there something I'm missing? I don't really have a lot of tape of her to watch. I didn't start recording until the match was well under way and then my wife came along and recorded an episode of The OC over most of it. I just happened to remember that I had a little bit of her on tape still, when she came up in this discussion. The camera angles on the footage that I have left aren't the best for seeing exactly where she's looking, but it does appear that at the time she executes the stroke she's looking at the object ball. She doesn't mover her head at all, she only shifts her eyes, it appears...which is a good thing.

Bob_Jewett
01-05-2005, 01:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> ... The camera angles on the footage that I have left aren't the best for seeing exactly where she's looking, but it does appear that at the time she executes the stroke she's looking at the object ball. She doesn't mover her head at all, she only shifts her eyes, it appears...which is a good thing. <hr /></blockquote>
Can you see exactly when she shifts her eyes? I believe her timing of the shift is very, very consistent.

GeraldG
01-05-2005, 01:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> ... The camera angles on the footage that I have left aren't the best for seeing exactly where she's looking, but it does appear that at the time she executes the stroke she's looking at the object ball. She doesn't mover her head at all, she only shifts her eyes, it appears...which is a good thing. <hr /></blockquote>
Can you see exactly when she shifts her eyes? I believe her timing of the shift is very, very consistent. <hr /></blockquote>

Not really. I've watched her play a thousand times (well, maybe not THAT many) both on TV and in person and never really paid any attention to it to that detail. They don't really show her face full-on while she's shooting. Why is that significant? I mean, other than the fact that she's like a machine and she pretty much does exactly the same thing every shot. I don't know if it really makes any difference if you switch on the first practice stroke or the last or somewhere in between, as long as you do it the same way every time, does it?

woody_968
01-05-2005, 03:45 PM
I could be wrong, but it seems like I remember hearing that Strickland looked at the cueball last, I will look at some video when I get home if I think about it.

I do believe there are times that the CB should be looked at last. When jacked up and shooting over a very close OB is just one example.

We often hear the argument that if your stroke is straight and you are lined up you shouldnt have to look at the cueball, you should be able to trust where you will hit it. But you can make the same argument for looking at the CB. If your lined up right, and have a straight stroke, why should you have to look at the OB?

Cueless Joey
01-05-2005, 04:46 PM
I don't think it matters at all as long as you freeze on the cueball before executing the shot, and that the elbow, grip hand and the bridge hand are in line.
I see no reason to look at the cueball last after I already froze the tip there for at least a second, shift the eye to the ob for at least two seconds then I pull the trigger. What I'm concerned at the last stroke is that I follow the line I froze on.

Scott Lee
01-05-2005, 10:17 PM
David...It's true that I am VERY comfortable looking at the CB last on any shot. However, I have been working on my own eye pattern movement, thinking more about the 'quiet eye' theory, which recognizes fewer, but longer looks at both the CB &amp; OB. Since I worked at Cue Tech a few months ago, I have been experimenting with OB on contact, as this was the way I played for many years (until about 15 yrs ago, when I changed). I still am not convinced that CB last on some shots is not the best option, but I am keeping an open mind! LOL OK Randy? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

randyg
01-06-2005, 06:50 AM
Hey SCOTT: This is what makes you a great BCA Instructor. Working with you is always fun because you have an open mind for any information.

Our job is to find multiple ways to teach the same thing. Every student we face will have a different learning aptitude.

While the eye-patterns are maybe the second most critical thing we address, it's the personal eye patterns (PEP) that you &amp; I teach that quiet the brain while shooting.

There are at least five instances when a shooter would want to look at the cue ball last. All of Scott's new students now learn that.

See you in Iowa sooooon. Looking forward to teaching a great Pool School together....SPF-randyg

Qtec
01-06-2005, 07:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There are at least five instances when a shooter would want to look at the cue ball last. All of Scott's new students now learn that.
<hr /></blockquote>

1. Jump shots.
2. swerve shots.
3. when the balls are very close together.?

whats the other 2?

qtec.[ when i have to jack-up, I still look at the OB]

Scott Lee
01-06-2005, 01:28 PM
Randy...You're right! Our job is to teach the same basic ideas different ways, so that we adapt our concepts to our student's needs, rather than forcing them to adapt to ours! LOL Examples are, of course, bridge, stance, grip, stroke, followthrough, timing, personal eye patterns, and many others (Keeping in mind that ALL of these things happen BEHIND the CB, not in front of it!).

Q-tec was very perceptive in his answer. The overall answer is...look at the CB last on any shot where the CB is more important than the OB...jumps, masse's, kicks, the break, certain safeties, or where the CB &amp; OB are close together (in the same peripheral vision range). /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

See you in Des Moines!

Scott

daviddjmp
01-06-2005, 01:34 PM
I think it is a good idea to look at the cueball last when you are jacked up over a ball. This way, you are sure to hit the CB in the center. If you hit off center, the CB will curve and it is easy to miss the shot-

Ross
01-06-2005, 05:06 PM
Bob, I'm pretty sure Allison's eye pattern is this:

warm up strokes:
during backstrokes, eye shifts to ob (to verify aim and alignment)
during forward stroke, eye shifts to cb (to check cb contact point)

final stroke :
1. cuestick paused at cb, eye focused on cb
2. eye shifts to ob BEFORE starting backstroke
3. backstroke (eye stays on ob)
4. pause (eye stays on ob)
5. forward stroke

This technique actually works pretty well but I've never worked hard enough to ingrain it. It also requires discipline under pressure because it is easy to not trust everything and want to peek out of sequence.

GeraldG
01-06-2005, 05:55 PM
There's NO WAY I could get that kind of detail out of the little bit of video that I have. Most of the actual shots are shown from behind, some frontal shots when she's looking a shot over, etc. I HATE the way they video these matches. I guess it's great for the spectators, people that just want to watch the match, but if you are trying to pick out some technical details like this, it just doesn't work.

Great info, though. The thing about it is that I'm not really sure what my entire sequence is...I just know that on the vast majority of shots, I fix on the object ball and sort of forget about the cueball after I get my cue alignment the way I want it on the cueball. I'm pretty sure that if I tried to pay attention to what I do the whole time with my eyes, I'd probably end up doing something different from normal anyway.

I'll tell you one other thing that has always puzzled me. You see a lot of people, Johnny Archer is one of them, that when they cue up and during the practice strokes, they are cued up at the very bottom of the cueball....like they were going to use extreme draw. Then when they actually execute the stroke, they hit the cueball wherever they want to. HOW DO THEY DO THAT?????
And...why?? I'll have to remember to ask Johnny about that when I see him again.

Rod
01-06-2005, 06:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The overall answer is...look at the CB last on any shot where the CB is more important than the OB...jumps, masse's, kicks, the break, certain safeties, or where the CB &amp; OB are close together (in the same peripheral vision range). <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Scott,

That's the jest of what should happen. Everyone is going to be a little different in their assment of the shot. For instance I rarely look at the c/b last on a jump. I spend time in setup to know exactly where I'll hit the c/b and it will "if it's a good stroke". Of course it doesn't matter if it's poor because I knew it wasn't executed correctly. That applies to, some jumps, some kicks, some balls very close, but never on the break. Masse' is obviuos. I see it as if the stroke is poor it doesn't matter what ball you look at. LOL Might as well look at the waitress. ha ha ha

With me it's always been execution, if I don't deliver; well I get what I get, and I know why. The problem with most pool players, they think they did and don't understand or know why. When you really understand "feel" you will know why.

Rod

Rod
01-06-2005, 07:16 PM
Ross,

That is almost exactly what I do now. The exception is I use three quickie strokes to verify, basic aim and distance the tip is from the c/b, so to speak. On the forth stroke I zero in. Years ago I didn't need the distance part but now it's part of the program. Years ago it was three strokes, dead foucsed when I pulled the trigger.

My most important shot is carried out in the same manor, that is the break. I spend more time with that shot than any other. That usually is more strokes if necessary, when ever I feel comfortable. BTW I don't play slow and I'm real happy with my break. If I give the same attention to all shots I could run more than three friggen balls!