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View Full Version : Long kick shots and diamonds problem!



Billy_Bob
01-06-2005, 08:53 AM
Two Questions...

1. When I aim just the cue ball [from the corner pocket] at the far center diamond, the cue ball does not go into the other corner pocket, but comes up short. Why? Where should I be aiming?

(These long kick shots have always been a problem for me...)


http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/


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2. How should you aim when going the other way and the center pocket is right smack dab in the middle of where the ball should hit?

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dr_dave
01-06-2005, 09:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>When I aim just the cue ball [from the corner pocket] at the far center diamond, the cue ball does not go into the other corner pocket, but comes up short. Why? Where should I be aiming?<hr /></blockquote>
The answer to that question depends on shot speed and English. Online video demonstrations NV 6.4-6.9 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html) might be of some help.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>How should you aim when going the other way and the center pocket is right smack dab in the middle of where the ball should hit?<hr /></blockquote>
NV 6.10 and 6.11 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html) might also help here.

Deeman2
01-06-2005, 09:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Two Questions...

1. When I aim just the cue ball [from the corner pocket] at the far center diamond, the cue ball does not go into the other corner pocket, but comes up short. Why? Where should I be aiming? <font color="blue"> This is a tough thing to give a simple answer to but I'll try. The angle of incidence does not in all cases equal the angle of deflection as you may have heard. The rebound angle depends on several factors, speed and english having the most impact with draw and follow having effect at shallower angles as well. You can make these angles equal by adjustment of those two factors, if that is important to you. Telling you exactly how is not an easy task. Shoot hard and the angle closes, softer and it opens. Inside (running) english (to the cushion) open the angle and outside (reverse)closes it. In most cases, the diamonds will serve as reference but experience with all combinations of speed and spin is needed to get good at kicks. </font color>

(These long kick shots have always been a problem for me...)


http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/


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2. How should you aim when going the other way and the center pocket is right smack dab in the middle of where the ball should hit? <font color="blue"> You will need to hit before the pocket with running english to open the angle or reverse english on the far side of the pocket to close the angle when a pocket lies in your desired path. Draw and follow will have a similar impact but are more delayed in their curve. Again, experience is the best teacher. Grady Matthews has a nice tape out for kicks and banks.

Good luck! </font color>

Deeman

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Bob_Jewett
01-06-2005, 10:02 AM
&gt; 1. When I aim just the cue ball [from the corner pocket] at the far
&gt; center diamond, the cue ball does not go into the other corner
&gt; pocket, but comes up short. Why? Where should I be aiming?

Let's assume you're not putting sidespin on the ball. To make sure of this, use a stripe as your cue ball.

When a ball without side spin hits a rail at an angle, the rail puts side spin on the ball. One consequence of that is that the ball leaves the rail not at the ideal mirror angle, but more perpendicularly to (straighter out from) the cushion. I assume that's what you meant by "come up short," and that the ball lands on the short rail instead of the corner pocket. You will tend to see the problem more if the cue ball is not rolling smoothly on the cloth when it gets to the cushion, because the follow that this implies tends to cancel the "shortening" due to that acquired side spin. I think that if you play on new cloth or wax up the cue ball, you will find it comes closer to the ideal angle.

Practically, what you have to do is compensate. How much? It depends on the table. You could compensate with a little side spin, but I think you will find that aiming over a little will be much more consistent. Aim over on the far rail half as much as you are missing the pocket by.

&gt; 2. How should you aim when going the other way and the center
&gt; pocket is right smack dab in the middle of where the ball should hit?

Have you tried aiming just a little on your side of the side pocket? That works on a lot of tables, because the follow on the cue ball dominates the shortening from the rail-induced side spin.

woody_968
01-06-2005, 11:39 AM
Another thing to consider when dealing with one rail kicks and banks is the the center of the ball never actually gets to the rail. So if you are aiming AT the diamond on the rail you will make contact to the cusion left of that point (in relation to the shot you have shown) and the ball will tend to come up short. It is not a large difference, but when kicking the length of the table could be far enough to make it come up short.

I am not sure if I am making this clear, so here is an example, take note of where the 1 ball is hitting the rail. It is not in the center of the endrail.

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On one rail kicks and banks I suggest shooting to a point on the rail opposite the diamond, not at the diamond. Give it a try and see if it helps, if not then just ignore me /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Woody

Billy_Bob
01-06-2005, 12:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> Have you tried aiming just a little on your side of the side pocket? That works on a lot of tables, because the follow on the cue ball dominates the shortening from the rail-induced side spin. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes and shooting just before the side pocket seems to work with a dead center hit or a bit of english.

What I'm practicing is shooting natural kick [bank] angles [one ball only] from each diamond/pocket around the table to each pocket around the table.

But I'm finding that I can hit from the side pocket to the opposite long rail second diamond with a dead center hit and make the corner pocket, yet when I try using the natural angles and diamonds with a dead center hit on long shots, something changes and a dead center hit no longer works.

And the corner to just before the opposite side pocket to corner shot working with a dead center hit is interesting. I should think that it would come up short.

BTW - I do understand that the diamond is actually at the cushion and not where the diamond is marked. So when aiming at a diamond from the left, I'm actually hitting a little to the right of where the diamond is visually.

I can of course make these shots (which don't work with dead center and natural angles) by using english or aiming a little further over.

I guess I need to better understand this "rail-induced side spin" business.

It is the angle of the kick which changes everything here?

Maybe shorter angles require a bit of english and wider angles no english or something?

DavidMorris
01-06-2005, 01:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But I'm finding that I can hit from the side pocket to the opposite long rail second diamond with a dead center hit and make the corner pocket, yet when I try using the natural angles and diamonds with a dead center hit on long shots, something changes and a dead center hit no longer works.<hr /></blockquote>
Probably because of one or both of these reasons:

1. You're stroking the cross table bank firm enough to skid the ball into the cushion. On the long bank you've picked up enough natural roll by the time the ball hits the cushion to alter the angle after rebound.

2. The angle is shallower on the cross table bank so the ball could be picking up more running english off the cushion which opens the angle a bit.

Scott Lee
01-06-2005, 01:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>

BTW - I do understand that the diamond is actually at the cushion and not where the diamond is marked. So when aiming at a diamond from the left, I'm actually hitting a little to the right of where the diamond is visually.<hr /></blockquote>

NO, the diamonds are inlaid where they are, to reflect a true aiming point. You aim through the diamond, up on the rail, not at a point of the cushion in front of it. Nonetheless, it is still somewhat of a guess, as A.S.S. (angle/speed/spin) have tremendous affects off of the cushions.

Scott Lee

Billy_Bob
01-06-2005, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DavidMorris:</font><hr> You're stroking the cross table bank firm enough to skid the ball into the cushion. On the long bank you've picked up enough natural roll by the time the ball hits the cushion to alter the angle after rebound.
<hr /></blockquote>

Yes!

I just went down and videotaped the two different shots and that is exactly what is happening!

On the shorter shots, the ball is skidding to the rail.

On longer shots, the ball is rolling by the time it hits the rail.

I guess I should hit my shorter shots with a bit of top english and see what happens...

DavidMorris
01-06-2005, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Nonetheless, it is still somewhat of a guess, as A.S.S. (angle/speed/spin) have tremendous affects off of the cushions.<hr /></blockquote>
A.S.S. also has tremendous effects ON the cushions. Especially when attached to a sweaty, drunk, 300 lb. pool player.

Ba-dump-bum!

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week...

/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

DavidMorris
01-06-2005, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillyBob:</font><hr>top english<hr /></blockquote>
Would that be Irish then? Or Scottish?

Sorry, couldn't resist -- to the purists among us, top english is a nonexistent phenomenon. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

&lt;~~~ on a roll today, baby! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bob_Jewett
01-06-2005, 03:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> ...
BTW - I do understand that the diamond is actually at the cushion and not where the diamond is marked. So when aiming at a diamond from the left, I'm actually hitting a little to the right of where the diamond is visually. ... <hr /></blockquote>
You have rediscovered the difference between shooting "opposite" and "through" the diamond when kicking. Shooting "through" a diamond means to aim at the spot on the rail that is even with the line of diamonds (spots) and at the calculated number. Shooting "opposite" means to land the cue ball on the cushion at a spot even with the diamond number.

Different systems require one method or the other. Most geometrically correct systems require you to shoot opposite. Shooting through is much easier for most situations. All of Raymond Ceulemans' system book works with "opposite" shooting, and I think Ray may know what he's talking about.

In your particular situation -- banking from one corner pocket off the far end rail to the other corner pocket -- it's easy to see the difference between through and opposite. A true mirror system will very obviously require the cue ball to land in the exact center of the far cushion (opposite the middle diamond). Put an object ball there temporarily and sight the shot from the cue ball to see how much correction from "through" is needed to get to "opposite."

A much easier way to see the correct mirror line is to put a ball at the reflected target, which is at a certain place off the table for a particular target. Most authors don't realize that the reflecting surface is at the "rail groove" which is half a ball in front of the nose of the cushion. It is not at the nose of the cushion, and certainly not at the line of the diamonds. I think I've even seen one author draw his "mirror table" with the tables touching at the outside edges of the rails.

For details on setting up the perfect mirror target -- mostly so you can see how broken the mirror system is -- see my July 2004 article in Billiards Digest. If there are enough requests, I'll put the article on-line.

recoveryjones
01-06-2005, 07:33 PM
Some excellent points made here regarding stroke and hitting through or in front of the diamonds etc.

Aside from it being your stroke or a technical(diamond aiming though or in front) problem, it might just be the table itself or weather conditions with humidity involved.

If humidity is present the cue ball rebounds off the rail sharper.Also new cloth can be a factor.If the rail has come unglued where the cue ball makes contact that too will affect the kick.Some tables play short(or long) on the kick you explained and it might not be your stroke.

Dr.Cue in his "Foundation for Banking and Kicking" video uses that very kick you explained to see if a table is rebounding true or coming up long or short.He uses 4 test shots one lenght(long bank corner to corner) wise,one across the table corner to corner, a two rail to the corner and a three rail diamond system shot to see if a table is banking properly.Tables can be different and it's reccomended by Dr. Cue that you check that out in your warm up. RJ

Scott Lee
01-06-2005, 07:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>

Dr.Cue in his "Foundation for Banking and Kicking" video uses that very kick you explained to see if a table is rebounding true or coming up long or short.He uses 4 test shots one lenght(long bank corner to corner) wise,one across the table corner to corner, a two rail to the corner and a three rail diamond system shot to see if a table is banking properly.Tables can be different and it's reccomended by Dr. Cue that you check that out in your warm up. RJ <hr /></blockquote>

RJ...Boy is THAT ever true. Lots of tables even play differently from day to day! LOL As someone who plays on all manner (and sizes) of tables, from great to horrible, I know the value of testing the rails before I start doing an exhibition! I've actually seen supposedly "professional" tables that were so far out of whack, that you had to go almost to the corner pocket for a natural 3-rail kick (normally it is between diamond 2 &amp; 3...about 2-3 feet down from the corner pocket)! One of the most difficult things I do, is having to adjust to poor table conditions. Sometimes I even have to leave out some shots, and replace them with others just because of the table! LOL But I never make excuses for the equipment...a player learns to play the table! LOL

Scott Lee

recoveryjones
01-06-2005, 09:03 PM
Your right on that one Scott. Dr. Cue says that some three rail kicks that should go to the corner come up two diamonds short. With tables that come up 1/2 diamond to a full diamond short adjustments can be made. When they come up 2 full diamonds (this rare) short, things become extremley difficult.

One more thing.I know your an advocate of the straight stroke and that is the main thing we are all looking for. There is one common straight stroke test that can also be faulty on some tables especially the cheaper ones.

People often shoot a shot lengthwise from center diamond to center diamond with the hopes of the cue ball returning to hit their tip.The problem is, is that on some of those tables the diamonds aren't measured precisley, this is according to Bert Kinister.Bert says some of these tables are manufactured by cheap labour and all center points before doing this test should be measured with a tape measure to get a perfectly straight line to shoot down.People with straight strokes might be fooled to be thinking they are putting 1/16 or more of english on the cue ball when they are in fact hitting it straight.Thankyou Bert Kinister.

Check this snooker link for an example of this straight stroke drill and other drills.

http://www.snookergames.co.uk/tuition.html

Scott if you ever get up to Vancouver Canada, PM me for lessons. I think my stroke is off 1/32 or so...LOL and we could use a great teacher like you up here.RJ

Rod
01-06-2005, 09:17 PM
Billy, tables play short and long. Rarely do I see a shot as you describe being right on. The center diamond is usually short and just a giude line. The tables I play on it will come up short. We get in to width vs length and a center ball hit.

Rod

Scott Lee
01-07-2005, 03:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>

Scott if you ever get up to Vancouver Canada, PM me for lessons. I think my stroke is off 1/32 or so...LOL and we could use a great teacher like you up here.RJ <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks RJ...I'd love to come up to Vancouver and Victoria!
I'll definitely keep you in mind!

Scott Lee