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bomber
01-06-2005, 11:13 AM
It seems that alot of people on here discuss all kinds of preshot routines and mathematics when conducting shots. In the last week or two after reading the board I think we have a bunch of scientists or something on here. lol. I think that understanding all of this stuff is great and dont take it the wrong way. But does anyone here just free wheel it. I mean, of course I have a preshot routine but i play mostly on muscle memory. If I had to think about all this physics, I would find me a new game!

I guess my question is: How many of you guys/gals freewheel it? How many of you play by memory? Do you really think about all this science or is it just interesting discussion? (There is nothing wrong with it if you do, im just curious)

bomber
01-06-2005, 11:14 AM
To answer my own question:

1. I freewheel alot. Of course I think about shapes but I play alot on muscle memory.
2. I seldom think about the science of pool when playing...but i do think about it when i am not playing.

woody_968
01-06-2005, 11:22 AM
I would say you have to understand there is a difference between practice and play. Many of the things discussed on this and other forums (and books and videos and instructors) are things that could and should be thought about while going through a practice session. But when it comes time to play you have to be able to go on auto pilot and just play the game. Mechanical thoughts and over thinking can and will destroy someones potential.

People do think and perform differently, some are feel players where some tend to think things through more. The trick is finding out what kind of player you are (it sounds like you already know).

Now the kicker is learning to practice how to play /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ceebee
01-06-2005, 11:27 AM
I learned a lot about playing Pool & Snooker in my younger years and I was a good player. Good meaning I got through college on my winnings & I have won a state tournament.

Today I try to use this scientific approach, that I learn from books & videos, on the practice table. What I can use, I incorporate, what I cannot incorporate is laid aside.

I used to be a Professional Golfer. I learned very quickly that you can't learn to play better golf on the golf course, you learn to fine tune your skills on the practice tee & the putting green.

When it's time to compete, your skills better be there & be sharp or you might lose. Developing your muscle memory on the break shot or pattern shots or extreme english shots will pay off in tight spots. If you do not practice, how will you get better? Every athlete disciplinely practices the fundamentals, in order to develop muscle memory. Then, in competition, the athlete does what they have done in practice, with a great deal of focus.

GeraldG
01-06-2005, 11:39 AM
I think all the "scientific" stuff...the geometry and physics behind it is good to understand, but I also think that you can get bogged down in it to the point that it's detrimental.

During practice I try and analyze shots and predict exactly what's going to happen, yadayada..and hope that some of it will stick in my subconscience and become a part of my playing without having to think about it.

During actual match play, the less I have to think about, the better. I need to spend my thinking time on things like shot selection, strategy and RELAXING. If I have all these formulas and theories in my head...well...I don't have that many active brain cells. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I play a lot better when I just relax and play.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-06-2005, 11:56 AM
I occasionally use the diamonds for kicks or banks but 90% of my kicks are by feel. I have a simple "parallel shift" system for banks.

I usually think about how hard I am going to hit the ball and what cue tip placement to use. I don't know if that is considered science.

The only time I think about physics I suppose is when throwing a ball or a frozen combo.

My aiming is by feel more than 90% of the time.

I really hope that made sense /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bomber
01-06-2005, 12:08 PM
well, at least i am not the only one. i was beginning to think that feel players were dinosaurs.

Deeman2
01-06-2005, 12:28 PM
I think most of us play by feel. You don't have to think about physics or math to shoot a shot or how hard to hit where. However, behind all that, as Charlie said, is fundamental science and practice. Most don't get into the small details and they usually limit their knowledge to a certain extent. For newer and less experienced players, it may help to have an explaination of science so that they know why something happens, then it should become a feel. There have, for instance, been some very good players who didn't believe squirt, swerve and throw existed. They had to have made the adjustments to play as well as they did but must have made them subconsciencously, or by feel.

Deeman

feelings, oh, oh, oh feelings /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
01-06-2005, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> It seems that alot of people on here discuss all kinds of preshot routines and mathematics when conducting shots. ...

Do you really think about all this science or is it just interesting discussion? <hr /></blockquote>I guess that's like asking "do you really practice or is it just interesting discussion?"

Hopefully, what you do or discuss off the table isn't creeping much into your mind when you're on the table.

Fred

jjinfla
01-06-2005, 02:30 PM
I play by feel.. After I shoot and it doesn't come out right I feel that I should have thunk it out better.

Actually all my banks are strickly feel. I picture (feel) where it is banking without english and then I use english or speed to lengthen or shorten the bank. But there is no confidence there.

On the other shots I just know where I have to hit the ball. Is that feel? When I miss it is only because I failed to execute. That is, I cut too much or not enough.

Jake

Jude_Rosenstock
01-06-2005, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> It seems that alot of people on here discuss all kinds of preshot routines and mathematics when conducting shots. In the last week or two after reading the board I think we have a bunch of scientists or something on here. lol. I think that understanding all of this stuff is great and dont take it the wrong way. But does anyone here just free wheel it. I mean, of course I have a preshot routine but i play mostly on muscle memory. If I had to think about all this physics, I would find me a new game!

I guess my question is: How many of you guys/gals freewheel it? How many of you play by memory? Do you really think about all this science or is it just interesting discussion? (There is nothing wrong with it if you do, im just curious) <hr /></blockquote>


There is a physical science behind the game that if you don't have a feel for, you'll never master pool BUT this is something that becomes second nature. The best analogy I can think of would be like asking a baseball player about gravity. The ballplayer may not be able to tell you the mathematical formula for determining the speed of a falling baseball but he still knows where it's going to land. Even though it's helpful for him to understand the physics of his environment (ask any player who's played in Colorado), he doesn't need a calculator in order to make adjustments and ascertain a flyball's destination.

Pool is much the same way. Truly knowing it is having a feel for it. For some people, the science, mathematics and systems available help them attain this feel but these are merely paths to the same goal, not the goal itself.

You got it right. Just feel it and don't bog your mind down with all that stuff. The only time you should EVER refer to a system is when you have no feel for the shot at hand.


Jude M. Rosenstock

DavidMorris
01-06-2005, 02:56 PM
Tap Tap Tap!

Well said, Jude. Pretty much sums of my "feel" of the subject. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

cheesemouse
01-06-2005, 03:20 PM
In competition I totally trust and freewheel. I will use some of the technical crap if I get stalled out; can't see the shot. Having a home table allows me to mess with systems but when the band starts to play the music all the tech stuff goes out the window because it is time to play the game.

Bob_Jewett
01-06-2005, 03:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> ... The only time you should EVER refer to a system is when you have no feel for the shot at hand. .... <hr /></blockquote>
I think this is mostly true, except when you're practicing. Some kind of system is helpful to put your practice shots into a framework, rather than just have 10 billion different shots to learn. Understanding how the balls work -- I suppose you could call it science -- is also helpful in diagnosing why various shots and positions aren't working for you. Do you know what happens if the cue ball is light? If the cue ball is going too far on some positions shots, do you know how to separate out the effects of fast cloth, fast rails or misweighted cue ball?

Well, maybe there are few kicking systems and position systems and certain aiming systems for special shots that are also useful to refer to, but you could argue that you would be better off developing feel for those shots. An example would be the very simple system that gives the follow angle of the cue ball for a nearly full hit on the object ball with follow.

As for actual play, thought paralyzes the arm.

SpiderMan
01-06-2005, 03:32 PM
For plain shotmaking and position play, particularly when I am warmed up and shooting well, it's mostly feel.

For shots where I plan out the details (I'm an engineer first, and can't help doing that), I try to boil it down to one simple execution that, if done correctly, will result in "all that other stuff" happening. That way, I don't have a cluttered mind when I actually shoot.

For banks and kicks, I generally check the geometrically-correct path and then make adjustments for variables (speed, cueball position desired, path deviation, blockages, etc).

For complex interactions such as shooting into clusters and trying to control the paths of multiple balls, I study the entire layout and run a slow-motion simulation in my head. Then I clear my head and hit the first ball in whatever manner I decided would product the correct result.

For long thin caroms I use my cue to check the exact 90-degree line, and I memorize a departure path for the first object ball. Otherwise, I'm tempted to hit too thick. Maybe that's just me.

For thicker caroms I check prospective 90-degree lines and then decide how much follow/draw and/or speed is needed to bend (or not bend) the carom path. Then I clear my head and hit the first object ball with whatever blend of contact point and speed/rotation I planned. I must always resist the temptation to apply some "adjustment" that may bugger the results.

For ball-in-hand combinations, I'm extremely methodical. I first align centers, then I fine-tune by checking right and left edges of the cue and first object balls. I make certain that all I need to do is stroke straight through the cueball towards the center of the "final" ghost ball. I am deadly on these from anywhere on any table.

For breaks, I forget everything and and try to knock the S**T out of them, because I'm a redneck and it's fun for other rednecks to watch. Unless we're talking about 9-ball, which isn't fun at all /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SpiderMan

Jude_Rosenstock
01-06-2005, 03:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>As for actual play, thought paralyzes the arm. <hr /></blockquote>


Bob, I've read your articles and have the utmost respect for your opinion and find what you have to say insightful and a genuine tool for any level poolplayer but you summed up my feelings well with that one sentence. Paralysis from analysis!


Jude M. Rosenstock

Chris Cass
01-06-2005, 04:09 PM
Bomber,

Dude, your taking the pre-shot routine all wrong. It's not a bunch of mechanical movements and is and should be free movements not free wheeling as you put it but more second nature once the pre-shot is in muscle memory.

Does it change? Yes, it does sometime but for the most part it's done on an average. Lets just talk about the stroke pattern part of mine. I have a 4 shot stroke pattern. Johnny Archer also has the same BTW. Not that that has anything to do with mine. Some have more strokes and some with less depending on your pre-shot and what your comfortable with.

Anyway, Mine like I said is a 4 stroke pattern. Lets say, after I reach my 3rd stroke and before I shoot the ball or enter in my final stroke. I get off a bit or something throws me off where I'm not ready to let the ball go? I might not stand up and start the routine over because it's minor and that's not needed. I'll repeat my 4 stroke pattern over. WSomeone watching would see me taking 7 strokes when in actuality I'm repeating my pattern after the 3rd stroke. Do I think of anything while I'm down on the ball? Yes, I think I need to recheck this shot and when I do let it go, I'll nut the shot.

Can you see Kid Delicious? 26 stroke pattern? lol

Regards,

C.C.~~hope you can follow what I just said dude. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
01-06-2005, 07:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is mostly true, except when you're practicing.<hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
As for actual play, thought paralyzes the arm.


<hr /></blockquote>

Exactly, build it in practice, execute with a clear mind during play. When you really know your capabilities it will happen.

Rod

Rod
01-06-2005, 08:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But does anyone here just free wheel it. I mean, of course I have a preshot routine but i play mostly on muscle memory. If I had to think about all this physics, I would find me a new game!
<hr /></blockquote>

You free wheel when you "know" a result will happen. Pool isn't about free wheel, it is what you "expect" will happen. That being said, "know" and "believe" it will happen, then you might free wheel.

It is good to know why things happen, actually you must to be a good player. If you can't read the engineers mathematics it does not mean you can't play. It only means you don't understand. Charts are not feel, it's just numbers. Anyone can play very good or be a champion and not understand plots, graphs or numbers. Feel will get you farther in this game than any reason.

Rod

Popcorn
01-06-2005, 11:00 PM
I just play for the most part but I have been playing the game for more then 40 years. I usually know what is going to happen and know how to effect a positive out come. This does not come from trial and error though, it comes from an understanding of the principles of the game. You may not think about them all the time but you better know them if you really want to be a good player. You may be surprised what players know if you talked to them. Some may seem like dunces but I can assure you most are not, at least not when it comes to pool.

JimS
01-07-2005, 05:19 AM
I study methods, techniques, principles of the game, stroke mechanics etc at home and do a lot of thinking.

Then I go play pool. (now that we finally have a pool hall in town...for the first time in about 30 years.)

Vagabond
01-07-2005, 05:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>

For ball-in-hand combinations, I'm extremely methodical.
because I'm a redneck and it's fun for other rednecks to watch.

SpiderMan [/quote/]

Howdy Spiderman,
Membership to the club denied.U can`t be Red Neck if u are that methodical.LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan
01-07-2005, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
For ball-in-hand combinations, I'm extremely methodical.
because I'm a redneck and it's fun for other rednecks to watch.
SpiderMan [/quote/]
Howdy Spiderman,
Membership to the club denied.U can`t be Red Neck if u are that methodical.LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Hey Vagabond, you must have blinked, both when reading and quoting! I said:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>For breaks, I forget everything and and try to knock the S**T out of them, because I'm a redneck and it's fun for other rednecks to watch
<hr /></blockquote>
Any good Mississippi redneck knows the social import of intertaining the other rednecks. Hold my beer and watch this!

SpiderMan

BlindPlayer
04-04-2005, 09:46 AM
I like this question! I've been playing pool since my Dad and his Lockheed R&amp;D BUDDIES were using "slide rules" for mathematical solutions. They couldn'd even spell "PC" in those days - there weren't any. Technology had just graduated from the first computer made with Vacuum Tubes and soon graduated to transistors the size of quarters!

Anyhoo...for those that have a technical/engineering mind it's just plain fun to brain storm the physics and for us it's impossible not to go there.

One man, who's name escapes me, spent years studing "When Spheres Collide" and used pool balls as his model and wrote the manual.

I echo the sendiments that the tech stuff is for practice. For some of us a more "complete" understanding builds confidence and maybe a touch of pride. In light of that a pool good player needs a silo full of confidence and anything that helps build that is a good thing. Obviously, one can become a high end player without being a tech fanatic (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Tech stuff is fascinating but when it comes to the match I set it aside. The only exception would be a weeknight tournament that goes to 1 or 2am getting down to the finals. At my age (I still work 10 hour days) I get pretty foggy upstairs after 11pm and then I have to rely on the the basics of the tech stuff to get me thru to the 1st or 2nd place finish.

It's weird, I know, but when I close my eyes when I'm tired I can assimulate all that I need to get the job done and can focus better. If I'm frozen it doesn't matter.

One
04-04-2005, 10:36 AM
When I was a beginner I didn't know what happened to the balls, I just played fast and ran some racks. It took me 7 hours to warm-up because of it. I played an automatic game, often I was thinking of something else than pool when I was running those racks.

The automatic playing works up to pro level but it is not fun. Now I play on logic and think on every shot and try play as perfect game as possible.

tateuts
04-04-2005, 12:34 PM
Understanding the science of pool may help your game, but it's a far cry from the training and ability required to play well.

To play my best, I like to feel like my stroke is relaxed, free and easy, effortless. If you call that freewheeling, so be it. To the observer, it probably looks like I'm freewheeling.

But I make every shot as deliberate as possible. I play precise position, speed, and angles. I have a precision plan on every shot. I may not always do exactly what I want but I sure try to do very specific things on each shot. When it comes to the planning and execution, I am not freewheeling whatsoever.

Chris

dr_dave
04-04-2005, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr>In the last week or two after reading the board I think we have a bunch of scientists or something on here. lol. I think that understanding all of this stuff is great and dont take it the wrong way. But does anyone here just free wheel it. I mean, of course I have a preshot routine but i play mostly on muscle memory. If I had to think about all this physics, I would find me a new game! <hr /></blockquote>
I guess it depends what you mean by "science" and "physics."

If knowing and using principles like the 30 degree rule (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=168248&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) and 90 degree rule (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=179084&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) is "using physics," then I am very guilty of using "physics" in my game. To me, they are critical principles (especially the 30 degree rule). Also, I am very methodical with bank and kick shots; although, I always start with a guess based on intuition, and correct that "guess" with an understanding of principles.

For related messages, see "thinkers vs. feelers (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=175913&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=)" (I THINK you are a "feeler") and " technical knowledge is not enough." (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=184727&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

Happy reading,
Dr. Dave

socrates
04-04-2005, 04:43 PM
A little "Zen in the Art of Archery"

Perform the ceremony.

As Mark Wilson used to say "You can not turn precision on and off"

Anyway a couple of thoughts.

MrLucky
04-04-2005, 04:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bomber:</font><hr> It seems that alot of people on here discuss all kinds of preshot routines and mathematics when conducting shots. In the last week or two after reading the board I think we have a bunch of scientists or something on here. lol. I think that understanding all of this stuff is great and dont take it the wrong way. But does anyone here just free wheel it. I mean, of course I have a preshot routine but i play mostly on muscle memory. If I had to think about all this physics, I would find me a new game!

I guess my question is: How many of you guys/gals freewheel it? How many of you play by memory? Do you really think about all this science or is it just interesting discussion? (There is nothing wrong with it if you do, im just curious) <hr /></blockquote> <font color="green">I learned early and hard! but as I got older I also learned that you / it is a continual process! Like a major league batter at times needs a new coach to show him where he is slipping we as pool players also need to not get caught up into "always just doing it!" I know that I after 45 years still need to go back to basics and think about staying down on my shot! I need to remember to stroke and not poke! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif and I need to practice my speed and stroke periodically especially when changing tables and table sizes! No professional athlete with a modicum of intelligence and pride will ever (other than Moss or Iverson!) say they never need to practice and continue to refine their art! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Brian in VA
04-04-2005, 07:10 PM
Hey Steve,
It's good to see a post from you bud! Hope you're well and getting time to enjoy this game again.
Perform the ceremony; I'd forgotten that one. Thanks!

Brian in VA

caedos
04-07-2005, 02:43 PM
For myself: systems are for analysis, principles are for performance. When I have internalized a system properly, it is a playing principle with its own adjustments that I can use as needed. I try to stay in performance mode as much as possible, but for some kicks and banks I step out the entire system analysis and trust myself to switch into shooting mode when the calculation is done.


"Think? Why would I think while I'm hitting?" - Yogi Berra

Carl