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datplayer
01-11-2005, 11:48 AM
I'm thinking of ordering a custom cue from a guy here in town. He's a great player and shoots with cues that he himself has made. I have been able to see some of his work and it looks impressive. Apparently he only makes a few cues a year, mostly as a hobby. His prices are suppose to be fairy reasonable as well.

However, he has a reputation of being a former road player, pothead, and plays big money matches. I've heard rumors before that he skipped town when he owed money. This makes me think that it would be a risk to give him money.

What do you guys think? I really want a cue from someone locally that I oversee being built, but is it too much of a risk?

PQQLK9
01-11-2005, 11:55 AM
If he makes good cues and is local I would buy from him.
Just get a receipt for your money . Good luck.

Popcorn
01-11-2005, 11:57 AM
Don't give him any money. If his cues are any good and your order is not something strange he should take the order without any deposit since it can be sold to someone else. I insist on no deposit and won't take money even if they offer. A deposit seems to give people the idea they have something over your head and they will begin to bug you for no real reason.

Cueless Joey
01-11-2005, 12:08 PM
Tap, tap, tap.

SpiderMan
01-11-2005, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote datplayer:</font><hr> I'm thinking of ordering a custom cue from a guy here in town. He's a great player and shoots with cues that he himself has made. I have been able to see some of his work and it looks impressive. Apparently he only makes a few cues a year, mostly as a hobby. His prices are suppose to be fairy reasonable as well.

However, he has a reputation of being a former road player, pothead, and plays big money matches. I've heard rumors before that he skipped town when he owed money. This makes me think that it would be a risk to give him money.

What do you guys think? I really want a cue from someone locally that I oversee being built, but is it too much of a risk? <hr /></blockquote>

If you believe that he is a risk, then I wouldn't pay up front. If you really must have one of his cues, ask him if he has any complete or almost complete that are not spoken for. Perhaps you can find something to be finished out to suit you in short order, and avoid the deposit issue without having to directly challenge his ethics.

SpiderMan

GeraldG
01-11-2005, 12:12 PM
I'm with Popcorn on this one, but from a different perspective. Popcorn is looking at it from a cuebuilder's perspective, and a valid one. From a customer's perspective, this guy has apparently shown himself to be a little flakey.

If I did give him a deposit it would be no more than 20%, and I'd have an agreement in writing that gives a timeframe for completion. If you do that, though, be aware that building a cue takes a lot of time. Six months is pretty quick and a year is not unreasonable depending on how much inlay work is involved.

My cuemaker (Danny Tibbetts) lives right down the street from me and he and I are good friends. I have no problem with giving Danny money up front, because I know him and I know he won't rip me off. In fact, he's building one for me now. Custom cues can be big-ticket items, though...if I didn't know him I might be a little hesitant to put very much money in up front. 20% of the one he's building for me now would be over $1,000.00...a lot of money to risk if I didn't know him.

Paul_Mon
01-11-2005, 12:24 PM
I paid my cuemaker 1/2 up front and half upon completion. We knew each other only thru this board but I'd seen and used his cues. Since we lived over 500 mile apart I had to trust that he would deliver, which he did. I'd suggest you pay 25% down and get a receipt.

Paul Mon~~~~~proud Blackheart owner

Popcorn
01-11-2005, 01:01 PM
I will tell you a funny thing about deposits. I know a well known cue maker (Would never use his name) whose cues take years to get and people often give him deposits. I have seen him sell cues to people without almost any wait for a high price. What he is doing is selling cues that were ordered several years ago by another customer at today's prices and basically forgetting about the original customer. I actually heard him tell a customer who had waited like three years that the guy had to pay more now since the cues value has gone up. This guy was really mad and told him what he could do with the cue after waiting three years. This cue maker guy must have thousands in deposits for cues I am sure he has no intention of ever delivering.

Jimmy B
01-12-2005, 02:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I will tell you a funny thing about deposits. I know a well known cue maker (Would never use his name) <hr /></blockquote>

Why not?? Sounds like someone that some people might want to avoid, If you're not willing to give a name why bother with the story??

JB

Popcorn
01-12-2005, 02:24 PM
This same guy was at last years Hopkins show and sold out for big dollars. Needless to say people are still waiting for their cues that have been on order for who knows how long, but he had pleanty of cues to sell at the show. The point of the story was that a deposit will in no way guarantee you getting your cue any faster or at all for that matter. In his mind he must feel like why should he wrap up and deliver a cue you ordered three years ago for say $700. when he can sell the now completed cue today to anybody for $1500. No point in using his name, I think he may be more typical then one may think. Ordering a cue from many of these guys is a complete crap shoot. Best to stick to the used market or attend a show and just pay top dollar if you really want a cue in my opinion. Beyond that you may be dead before you get your cue and it has nothing to do with the cue maker being too busy, they are just bad and unscrupulous business men many of them. I really think one is best dealing with someone local you can have a good relationship with that will actually build you a cue. He doesn't have to be famous just build good cues and deliver in your lifetime.

SpiderMan
01-12-2005, 03:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>Ordering a cue from many of these guys is a complete crap shoot. Best to stick to the used market or attend a show and just pay top dollar if you really want a cue in my opinion. Beyond that you may be dead before you get your cue and it has nothing to do with the cue maker being too busy, they are just bad and unscrupulous business men many of them. I really think one is best dealing with someone local you can have a good relationship with that will actually build you a cue. He doesn't have to be famous just build good cues and deliver in your lifetime. <hr /></blockquote>

I couldn't agree more. Unless you're buying for investment you don't really need a "name". Of course there are things one must know about the construction of a good cue that will last, but they aren't the "secrets" that they once were. Many lesser-known guys can build a good product. It isn't rocket science or magic, but it helps to have a machinist's background, experience and/or tutelage, patience, and common sense.

SpiderMan

Barbara
01-12-2005, 04:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>I really think one is best dealing with someone local you can have a good relationship with that will actually build you a cue. He doesn't have to be famous just build good cues and deliver in your lifetime. <hr /></blockquote>

Been there, done that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara~~~has a cue for my lifetime /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

woody_968
01-12-2005, 04:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote datplayer:</font><hr> This makes me think that it would be a risk to give him money.

What do you guys think? <hr /></blockquote>

There must be some reason you dont trust him or you wouldnt be here asking this question. Follow your instincts, dont give him much (if any) money up front.

Where are you from? Maybe someone on here would know of someone close to you that they could recommend.

Woody

BLACKHEART
01-12-2005, 07:49 PM
Popcorn, I can agree with most of what you say. There are those in any business that are not trust worthy. They may be local or not. You may have a better chance with someone local, because you can actually go &amp; see the guy to check on his progress. I personally don't take deposits, UNLESS I feel that the Q that is being ordered, is one that I feel won't sell to anyone else,because of the design or extreme weight. There are some customers who voluntarily send deposits. If you order a Q from me &amp; a year later my prices have gone up(as is the case this last year), I honor our ORIGINAL DEAL. I only mention this to assure future CUSTOMERS OF CUSTOM CUEMAKERS, that there are still a few honest guys out there. Now on the other side of the coin. I have had CUSTOMERS, who wrote bad checks. Ordered Qs &amp; never picked them up. I've had Qs returned months later, that looked like they were run over in a gravel driveway, with a note saying it was that way when he got it from me. This is just to show that shady characters are on both sides of the cash register...JER

Troy
01-12-2005, 08:22 PM
I'm not a cue MAKER, I just do repairs. However, I learned from a local Cue Maker and I agree with Jer.
I don't ask for payment or a deposit up front.
I don't take checks unless I know the customer.
I guarantee my work and maintain a top reputation even if it costs me.

I had a person tell me a tip I had installed fell off. I said "No Charge" then 'cuz my tips don't fall off. After a closer look, I never put a tip on this cue, but since I already said "No Charge" I kept my word. Oh well, I got ripped off that once.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Popcorn, I can agree with most of what you say. There are those in any business that are not trust worthy. They may be local or not. You may have a better chance with someone local, because you can actually go &amp; see the guy to check on his progress. I personally don't take deposits, UNLESS I feel that the Q that is being ordered, is one that I feel won't sell to anyone else,because of the design or extreme weight. There are some customers who voluntarily send deposits. If you order a Q from me &amp; a year later my prices have gone up(as is the case this last year), I honor our ORIGINAL DEAL. I only mention this to assure future CUSTOMERS OF CUSTOM CUEMAKERS, that there are still a few honest guys out there. Now on the other side of the coin. I have had CUSTOMERS, who wrote bad checks. Ordered Qs &amp; never picked them up. I've had Qs returned months later, that looked like they were run over in a gravel driveway, with a note saying it was that way when he got it from me. This is just to show that shady characters are on both sides of the cash register...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
01-12-2005, 09:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is just to show that shady characters are on both sides of the cash register...JER
<hr /></blockquote>

I'll bet you run into them Jer and I'm sure that exists on both sides of the fence. I really respect a man that honors an original deal, seller or customer.

Rod

Jimmy B
01-13-2005, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Needless to say people are still waiting for their cues that have been on order for who knows how long, but he had pleanty of cues to sell at the show. The point of the story was <hr /></blockquote>

And my point was this is a forum where we share information and try to educate and answer questions. We try to help each other out, your post was pretty much useless, why bother if you're scared to drop a name, it's either true or it isn't and if it's true then you should have no problems telling it.

JB

Rich R.
01-13-2005, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> And my point was this is a forum where we share information and try to educate and answer questions. We try to help each other out, your post was pretty much useless, why bother if you're scared to drop a name, it's either true or it isn't and if it's true then you should have no problems telling it. <hr /></blockquote>
Popcorn, a name would certainly alert someone thinking about dealing with this guy. Maybe it would help someone avoid getting burned by him.
If he is dealing the way you say, he deserves to have his name be known. There is no good reason to protect him.

Popcorn
01-13-2005, 08:45 AM
One of my points was that they all do it to a degree. One of the most renowned ,no longer with us, cue makers if you ran into him in Atlantic City and he needed money would sell you a cue and it arrived a few weeks later. Needless to say he did not just build this cue, someone else's wait just got a little longer. I just think unless you are buying as a collectable the reality of ordering a cue that will not be delivered for years is kind of silly anymore. There are a lot of good cue makers around the country now, (this was not always the case), who do very nice work and you may even live close to one. You can give them an order and receive the cue in a timely manor. The idea of waiting years for a cue you intend on playing with is ridicules. Myself after waiting a couple of years to get a cue from Balabushka called him and asked for my money back which he promptly sent me within a week. The cue was to be $120.00 with two shafts, just a basic cue and I sent him the payment in full with the order and was told by the way it would be about two months. It was funny because he added 6% interest to the money for the time he had it. I have owned numerous Balabushka's over the years, and still have a couple but never got one directly from him. If you didn't live in his area and could go right there, or weren't a top player he brushed you off. Back to the cue maker who was at the Hopkins show, his name comes up on these boards from time to time and other then nice comments about his cues, his business practices are well known. I don't plan on posting his name regardless what someone else may think. I am interested in others opinions but I make my own decisions as to what I do. If that Jimmy guy thinks what I post is useless then I suggest he not read it.

Cane
01-13-2005, 09:13 AM
Popcorn, and others...

I'm not a cuemaker, have not desire to be, there are plenty of great ones out there, but I am a maker of custom Bamboo Fly Rods. I NEVER take deposits. If a customer wants a rod, they specify what they want, I tell them it will be close to a year before it's complete, I bill them on completion, give them 10 days inspection period in which time they can get a full refund minus shipping if the rod is returned in new condition, (which, I've only had to do once out of over 600 cane rods, and turns out this guy has done the same thing to several makers) and if they don't want the refund, I spend the money... usually on either new tools, or one of you cuemakers products.

The custom cue I currenty play with was a special cue, that I designed. I asked the maker, whom I consider very reputable, if he wanted a deposit. He said "Ahhh... you can send me half, you can send me a hundred... or you can just pay me when it's done... Doesn't really matter to me." Since I knew him, I paid half when I ordered, half when complete. But he's trustworthy, and I know him personally.

Again, I'm no cuemaker, so I don't know what business "rules" are used in the cuemakers world, but as a maker of fly rods that cost as much or more than many cues, in that world, I make the rod, then send the bill. I can always sell the rod for $1200 to $2500 if the customer doesn't come through with the money, but would never even consider making a rod for a customer and then selling it to someone else because value or prices had increased since the original order! Just isn't ethical.

Later,
Bob (ready for spring so I can look for pool tournaments near trout streams!)

Rich R.
01-13-2005, 10:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If that Jimmy guy thinks what I post is useless then I suggest he not read it. <hr /></blockquote>
Popcorn, I don't care about "that Jimmy guy". He can take care of himself. I am selfishly concerned about myself. I attend several high profile pool events, each year, and I have been known to buy a cue or two. I would like to know what cue makers to avoid.
If you don't put a name to your statements, I have to agree with Jimmy, your post is useless to me and I may end up being this guy's next victim.

Popcorn
01-13-2005, 10:28 AM
I think Jack Justis the case guy builds rods as well.

Jimmy B
01-13-2005, 03:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> One of my points was that they all do it to a degree. One of the most renowned ,no longer with us, cue makers if you ran into him in Atlantic City and he needed money would sell you a cue and it arrived a few weeks later. Needless to say he did not just build this cue, someone else's wait just got a little longer. I just think unless you are buying as a collectable the reality of ordering a cue that will not be delivered for years is kind of silly anymore. There are a lot of good cue makers around the country now, (this was not always the case), who do very nice work and you may even live close to one. You can give them an order and receive the cue in a timely manor. The idea of waiting years for a cue you intend on playing with is ridicules. Myself after waiting a couple of years to get a cue from Balabushka called him and asked for my money back which he promptly sent me within a week. The cue was to be $120.00 with two shafts, just a basic cue and I sent him the payment in full with the order and was told by the way it would be about two months. It was funny because he added 6% interest to the money for the time he had it. I have owned numerous Balabushka's over the years, and still have a couple but never got one directly from him. If you didn't live in his area and could go right there, or weren't a top player he brushed you off. Back to the cue maker who was at the Hopkins show, his name comes up on these boards from time to time and other then nice comments about his cues, his business practices are well known. I don't plan on posting his name regardless what someone else may think. I am interested in others opinions but I make my own decisions as to what I do. If that Jimmy guy thinks what I post is useless then I suggest he not read it. <hr /></blockquote>

That Jimmy guy thinks you're a blowhard wannabe know it all, you want everyone to think your "in the loop" and somehow know all this knowledge that nobody else knows, you don't want to piss anyone off by mentioning a name here when it may in fact help someone from getting F^%$Ked in the future. If you don't have the balls to help others out then you shouldn't have the ego to do your little name-dropping. I had similar problems with guys in the past and I have never had any trouble telling my story, if it helped one other person then I did a good thing. One such guy is in your neck of the woods, Dennis Searing screwed me one time and I have always told anyone who wants to know about his business practices the story. The difference is I don't care what he thinks about me saying it because it's the truth, if he wants only good stories about him out there then he needs to work on his business end, I also add that his cues are very well built but he's not a person I'd trust in a business deal. My point is this forum isn't for you to beat around the bush in an attempt to impress us all with your hidden knowledge, nobody is impressed. And if you donít like my opinion I suggest you just donít read my posts.

JB

Jimmy B
01-13-2005, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If that Jimmy guy thinks what I post is useless then I suggest he not read it. <hr /></blockquote>
Popcorn, I don't care about "that Jimmy guy". <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks pal, I love you 2 :-D

JB

Paul_Mon
01-13-2005, 06:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> That Jimmy guy thinks you're a blowhard wannabe know it all, you want everyone to think your "in the loop" and somehow know all this knowledge that nobody else knows, you don't want to piss anyone off by mentioning a name here when it may in fact help someone from getting F^%$Ked in the future. If you don't have the balls to help others out then you shouldn't have the ego to do your little name-dropping. I had similar problems with guys in the past and I have never had any trouble telling my story, if it helped one other person then I did a good thing. One such guy is in your neck of the woods, Dennis Searing screwed me one time and I have always told anyone who wants to know about his business practices the story. The difference is I don't care what he thinks about me saying it because it's the truth, if he wants only good stories about him out there then he needs to work on his business end, I also add that his cues are very well built but he's not a person I'd trust in a business deal. My point is this forum isn't for you to beat around the bush in an attempt to impress us all with your hidden knowledge, nobody is impressed. And if you donít like my opinion I suggest you just donít read my posts.

JB
<hr /></blockquote>

Boy do I wish that I wrote that. You hit the nail right on the head with this guy. He hides behind this secret identity of a so called old time road player and cue maker. If he's telling us the truth what's the big secret. He once told me "who I am is not important" and wondered if I would believe him more if he was well known. I have a hard time believing most of what he writes.

Paul Mon~~~wants to believe

datplayer
01-13-2005, 06:57 PM
I appreciate all the tips and input. It seems that I may be better finding someone more trustworthy.

Popcorn
01-13-2005, 08:26 PM
quote
"I have a hard time believing most of what he writes."

Could you please point out any errors in any of my writings. My knowledge and experience are extensive and I try to write helpful things, not venomous writings like yours? I write honestly about something I obviously know a lot about which should be easy to recognize. If I am a BS'er then I am very good at it.

Rod
01-13-2005, 08:33 PM
Jimmy,

No one wins on this deal. I mean, many times people have been critisized for saying something bad about someone. The other person is not here to defend themselves. Now your asking for someone to spill the beans. We've all been screwed but a forum can be a lynching mob using one persons word. It is best conducted in private.

I'll bet big time this practice exists. Why would anyone would wait 5 years or better for a cue is beyond me. There are way to many good cue makers out there. If you have to have the name, well you just wait. Personally I'd expect it to happen. It's hard to imagine anyone actually thinks a builder is on 437 and your at 732 and it won't. It has been documented right here in front of your eyes.

My point is, why say anything bad about someone that has a good reputation. If you have an an axe to gring with Popcorn that's your business.

Rod

BLACKHEART
01-13-2005, 09:14 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gifI don't know POPCORN from Adam,but I have agreed with him on many issues &amp; have not on others. I think we can agree, that on this one issue, he is not going to budge on nameing this Qmaker. I CAN LIVE WITH THAT &amp; MOVE ON. Whipping a dead horse is gets you nowhere. Popcorn, keep on posting &amp; I'll keep on agreeing or disagreeing with you. Night all...JER

ChadCash
01-13-2005, 11:54 PM
popcorn I wonder if you are talking about someone i know . I ordered a cue from this guy years ago ,sent a deposit and he keeps making up excuses.Thinking about placing an ad in BD and warning people or going to disscusion forums and trashing him if I dont get my product or the cash.

Jimmy B
01-14-2005, 01:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> My knowledge and experience are extensive <hr /></blockquote>

I guess if you say so LOL.

JB

Jimmy B
01-14-2005, 01:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>
My point is, why say anything bad about someone that has a good reputation. If you have an an axe to gring with Popcorn that's your business.

Rod


<hr /></blockquote>

I have no axe to grind against anyone personally, I just hate when people want to drop hints and pretend that they have some secret knowledge and them and only those they like will learn it. Fact is if he didn't want to warn the person about a cue maker who does things in the way he discribed then why even mention it. Popcorn just likes to pretend he's this all knowing insider and that he's too good to share any of his knowledge, but he'll drop hints to impress us all. He even did it on his follow up post where he was bad mouthing Gus, except he's such a nice guy he never said Gus's name so that down the line he can deny ever saying it. The guy is a clown and I find it hard to believe anyone who swears he's telling the truth yet can't say names. I think you need to help people out here and as long as what he says is true then why worry about who he pisses off?

JB

Jimmy B
01-14-2005, 01:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ChadCash:</font><hr> Thinking about placing an ad in BD and warning people or going to disscusion forums and trashing him if I dont get my product or the cash. <hr /></blockquote>

And doing so would be a service to us all and may help to stop this from happening in the future, which would be a good thing for everyone. Where is the down side??? Although you could just hint about it and help nobody and let others get screwed over.

JB

GeraldG
01-14-2005, 02:04 AM
I have to agree that posting the person's name in a public forum is probably not the best idea. The obvious solution is to PM anyone that has a need to know. I also agree that there's nothing at all to be gained from coming on here and trashing each other. Once again, a PM is the best way to handle differences of that sort. JMHO.

buddha162
01-14-2005, 03:48 AM
A PM is not going to help anyone except the guy receiving it.

Listen, I don't consider describing a negative business transaction to be "trashing" anyone. Since this is a pool forum, and members of this forum order custom cues all the time, I see no problem with past customers testifying to bad business deals. I also love to read about A+ cuemaker service/delivery time/products, but I think the information should flow both ways.

Tell you what, Popcorn or anybody else could email the cuemaker and let him know what's going to be posted on the CCB. If the cuemaker cares enough he can register and defend himself. As far as I'm concerned relaying customer service experiences good or bad is completely legitimate on this forum.

-Roger

GeraldG
01-14-2005, 05:26 AM
I respectfully disagree. That is not the purpose or format of this forum, at least as far as I know. I'm not telling you what to post, that's not my job. But I can tell you that there is a certain amount of danger in posting things like that without concrete evidence.

IMO that sort of thing should have it's own forum. A Board of Inquiry type format that is carefully monitored to prevent people from posting blatantly libelous, injurious or slanderous statements or making threats would be much more suited to this type of thing. In that format, everyone should be required to provide their full names in the posts and be prepared to present evidence that what they are posting is true.

The potential problem that I see is that the owners and moderators of the forum could be dragged into a civil suit, not just the posters. This is especially true when the posters are allowed to post under screen name without revealing their true identity and the information posted is second-hand (hearsay) information. When you are posting information that could be damaging to someone's livelihood or business reputation, you need to be able to back it up with fact. If Popcorn is not willing to provide his name and evidence, then it would be very unwise to post the cuemaker's name in here. It IS Popcorn's right, under the present rules of this forum, to post anonymously. If I were that cuemanker and someone posted something like that about my business (which I felt to be untrue), you can bet that everyone involved would be served papers and have an opportunity to prove in court what they were saying was true. The truth is an absolute defense against libel and slander, but hearsay and second-hand information is not considered evidence. You can't say, "I heard he did this" and I heard he ripped off so-and-so" and "I figure he sold someone else's cue", etc. While it may be true, it's not proof. You have to be able to say "Here's a copy of my cancelled check for the deposit and it's been 2 years and I still don't have my cue or my money back." Also, there is a statute of limitations on these things. In most states, the statute of limitations in civil cases is 2 years.

Maybe the owners/moderators would be interested in starting a forum like that? It certainly would have it's value.

Paul_Mon
01-14-2005, 06:35 AM
Popcorn says: ďCould you please point out any errors in any of my writings.Ē

Try reading it again. I said believing what you write, not in error. You could be plagiarizing anyone and it would not be in error but I would be correct in that I didnít believe you.

Popcorn says :Ē My knowledge and experience are extensive and I try to write helpful things, not venomous writings like yours?Ē

If you say so. A lot of what you have to say is good information but is it truly yours. Itís your right on this forum to post anonymously, the reader then need to figure out whatís BS. Your reputation as Popcorn means nothing. Many people post here anonymously but when need be they identify themselves. IMO, this lends credence to their writings. If this is venomous please accept my apology.

Popcorn says: If I am a BS'er then I am very good at it.

I agree. Please note that I did not address nor will I address anything you post unless asked. You and I would not talk to each other in person unless you initiated the conversation. I will continue to ignore addressing you personally, unless asked.

best regards.........Paul Mon

Jimmy B
01-14-2005, 04:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> A PM is not going to help anyone except the guy receiving it.

Listen, I don't consider describing a negative business transaction to be "trashing" anyone. Since this is a pool forum, and members of this forum order custom cues all the time, I see no problem with past customers testifying to bad business deals. I also love to read about A+ cuemaker service/delivery time/products, but I think the information should flow both ways.

Tell you what, Popcorn or anybody else could email the cuemaker and let him know what's going to be posted on the CCB. If the cuemaker cares enough he can register and defend himself. As far as I'm concerned relaying customer service experiences good or bad is completely legitimate on this forum.

-Roger <hr /></blockquote>

Great post, I couldn't agree more with everything you wrote.
JB

Jimmy B
01-14-2005, 04:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr> I respectfully disagree. That is not the purpose or format of this forum, at least as far as I know. I'm not telling you what to post, that's not my job. But I can tell you that there is a certain amount of danger in posting things like that without concrete evidence.

IMO that sort of thing should have it's own forum. A Board of Inquiry type format that is carefully monitored to prevent people from posting blatantly libelous, injurious or slanderous statements or making threats would be much more suited to this type of thing. In that format, everyone should be required to provide their full names in the posts and be prepared to present evidence that what they are posting is true.

The potential problem that I see is that the owners and moderators of the forum could be dragged into a civil suit, not just the posters. This is especially true when the posters are allowed to post under screen name without revealing their true identity and the information posted is second-hand (hearsay) information. When you are posting information that could be damaging to someone's livelihood or business reputation, you need to be able to back it up with fact. If Popcorn is not willing to provide his name and evidence, then it would be very unwise to post the cuemaker's name in here. It IS Popcorn's right, under the present rules of this forum, to post anonymously. If I were that cuemanker and someone posted something like that about my business (which I felt to be untrue), you can bet that everyone involved would be served papers and have an opportunity to prove in court what they were saying was true. The truth is an absolute defense against libel and slander, but hearsay and second-hand information is not considered evidence. You can't say, "I heard he did this" and I heard he ripped off so-and-so" and "I figure he sold someone else's cue", etc. While it may be true, it's not proof. You have to be able to say "Here's a copy of my cancelled check for the deposit and it's been 2 years and I still don't have my cue or my money back." Also, there is a statute of limitations on these things. In most states, the statute of limitations in civil cases is 2 years.

Maybe the owners/moderators would be interested in starting a forum like that? It certainly would have it's value. <hr /></blockquote>
This makes no sense, how would a different forum make it any better? You either agree or disagree with posting your own dealings, I don't see how you think it's wrong and that people could be sued in one setting yet it's fine under a new heading??? Makes no sense at all. I'd also like to say that whenever someone writes something you need to take it with a grain of salt, good or bad you need to do your own research. This is just part of the research. There is nothing stopping someone from making up a few fake screen names and posting nothing but positive spam about a cuemaker, to me it's just as bad as the guy who would make up negative lies about someone. If a businessman conducts himself responsibly he has little to worry about when it comes to this sort of thing. Sure everyone will have 1 or 2 angry customers, but in the long run the good will far out weigh the bad and that is how a good reputation is built. I want to hear the bad stories as well as the good and I'll then decide for myself, and IMO a post from someone with a "real"name carries much more weight then a post from someone named after snack food.

JB&lt;----Fake name

highsea
01-14-2005, 07:53 PM
A agree with you GeraldG.

If the original buyer who got screwed posted his experience, that would be one thing. Second or third hand accounts are invariably one sided, and it is not fair to the person who cannot defend himself.

If a buyer is unsure of a cuemaker, he should ask for references from previous customers, get firm agreements in writing, and use his best business judgement regarding prepayments.

The fact that popcorn mentioned that all cuemakers are not necessarily as ethical as we as customers would prefer, was intended as a general warning of the "caveat emptor" variety. Naming names is inappropriate if you are not directly involved in the transaction. jmo

This doesn't mean that I think cuemakers should be a protected species. If I ordered a cue and was ripped off, I would have no trouble telling the world. But I would never tell a "I heard this" story and name names.
______________________

buddha162
01-15-2005, 03:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> If I ordered a cue and was ripped off, I would have no trouble telling the world. But I would never tell a "I heard this" story and name names.
______________________ <hr /></blockquote>

That is a distinction I tried to make clear in my post. Now, if Popcorn invites the person that got screwed on to this forum to post his grievances, that would be fine. Even if he gets that person's permission and perhaps his name, that would be fine too.

Popcorn's assertion were made with a note of certainty that implies his knowledge is definitive in regards to this particular cuemaker's business practice. He said he knew of numerous customers that were ripped off in the same way, and this imo warrants a spilling of the beans.

-Roger

Rich R.
01-15-2005, 04:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> The fact that popcorn mentioned that all cuemakers are not necessarily as ethical as we as customers would prefer, was intended as a general warning of the "caveat emptor" variety. <hr /></blockquote>
Popcorn's generalization is one of the things I disagree with most, in his post. He is saying that all cue makers are unscrupulous. I just don't believe that.

I have dealt with a couple of cue makers and I have had none of the problems that popcorn describes. Now that is first hand information.

Grouping all cue makers together with one unflattering statement, as Popcorn did, is just irresponsible, IMHO. There is no way that he can have first hand information about all cue makers. If every cue maker he had dealt with has screwed him, he is obviously dealing with the wrong cue makers.

You may as well say that all pool players are chain smoking drunken gamblers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Popcorn
01-15-2005, 08:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> The fact that popcorn mentioned that all cuemakers are not necessarily as ethical as we as customers would prefer, was intended as a general warning of the "caveat emptor" variety. <hr /></blockquote>
Popcorn's generalization is one of the things I disagree with most, in his post. He is saying that all cue makers are unscrupulous. I just don't believe that.

I have dealt with a couple of cue makers and I have had none of the problems that popcorn describes. Now that is first hand information.

Grouping all cue makers together with one unflattering statement, as Popcorn did, is just irresponsible, IMHO. There is no way that he can have first hand information about all cue makers. If every cue maker he had dealt with has screwed him, he is obviously dealing with the wrong cue makers.

You may as well say that all pool players are chain smoking drunken gamblers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Quote popcorn

"they are just bad and unscrupulous business men many of them."

I didn't not say all are bad. I am beginning to think many of you people are just idiots, (Notice I did not say all), and maybe not worth talking with when you can take a stupid thread like this and draw it out like this based on my analogy. Jimmy B doesn't count, he is just your basic mean drunk who sits down at the key board at times and spews his venom, that is understandable, but the rest of you I don't quite know what to think. I am beginning to think alcohol may have a lot to do with many of these posts on here.

GeraldG
01-15-2005, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> The fact that popcorn mentioned that all cuemakers are not necessarily as ethical as we as customers would prefer, was intended as a general warning of the "caveat emptor" variety. <hr /></blockquote>
Popcorn's generalization is one of the things I disagree with most, in his post. He is saying that all cue makers are unscrupulous. I just don't believe that.

I have dealt with a couple of cue makers and I have had none of the problems that popcorn describes. Now that is first hand information.

Grouping all cue makers together with one unflattering statement, as Popcorn did, is just irresponsible, IMHO. There is no way that he can have first hand information about all cue makers. If every cue maker he had dealt with has screwed him, he is obviously dealing with the wrong cue makers.

You may as well say that all pool players are chain smoking drunken gamblers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Quote popcorn

"they are just bad and unscrupulous business men many of them."

I didn't not say all are bad. I am beginning to think many of you people are just idiots, (Notice I did not say all), and maybe not worth talking with when you can take a stupid thread like this and draw it out like this based on my analogy. Jimmy B doesn't count, he is just a mean drunk who sits down at the key board at times and spews his venom, that is understandable, but the rest of you I don't quite know what to think. I am beginning to think alcohol may have a lot to do with many of these posts on here. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, Popcorn, if it helps any, I'm on your side. Your intended message was:

"There are unscrupulous cuemakers just as there are unscrupulous people in any business. If you are intending to have a cue built, do your homework and make sure that the cuemaker you choose will deliver."

And, I think you are right in refusing to divulge any names on this forum. Anything else would be wrong under the circumstances.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-15-2005, 08:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr>

And, I think you are right in refusing to divulge any names on this forum. Anything else would be wrong under the circumstances.

<hr /></blockquote>

I agree. That would be asking for trouble. No need to exacerbate the situation.

Rich R.
01-15-2005, 08:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> "they are just bad and unscrupulous business men many of them."

I didn't not say all are bad. I am beginning to think many of you people are just idiots, (Notice I did not say all), and maybe not worth talking with when you can take a stupid thread like this and draw it out like this based on my analogy. Jimmy B doesn't count, he is just your basic mean drunk who sits down at the key board at times and spews his venom, that is understandable, but the rest of you I don't quite know what to think. I am beginning to think alcohol may have a lot to do with many of these posts on here. <hr /></blockquote>
Actually, you did say "all", in a different post.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>One of my points was that they all do it to a degree. [ QUOTE ]


If you just provided the name of the cue maker you were referring to, this thread wouldn't have been so drawn out.

You make a statement about an unscrupulous cue maker and refuse to name him, and now you refer to us as idiots and imply that we are alcohol abusers.

Maybe it is you who should look in the mirror.

Popcorn
01-15-2005, 09:21 AM
When I say they all do it to a degree, it may in a way have been a little bit in defense of many of them. They are in a nickel and dime business and a lot of them live hand to mouth. When you are dealing with people in that position things will happen. Such as having to turn a cue into cash today because the bills are due and the cue was pre paid for and they need to get money out of it. This thread went off in a strange direction.

Rich R.
01-15-2005, 09:41 AM
I agree that it is definitely a difficult business. However, we differ in our opinion of the people in it.
You seem to think that most, if not all cue makers, are a little underhanded.
On the other hand, I believe that most of them are good, hard working, honest people, trying to make a living.
I don't believe the practices you mention are as common place as you would have us believe.
This is why I, and others, believe that the names of the bad ones, should be made public. In that way, customers could avoid those cue makers, or take precautions to protect themselves. A little information goes a long way to benefit people. As long as what you are saying is the truth, there should be no problem disclosing a name.

Fred Agnir
01-15-2005, 05:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Jimmy B doesn't count, he is just your basic mean who sits down at the key board at times and spews his venom, <hr /></blockquote>I can honestly say that at this moment, I've been drinking for a few hours, and Jimmy B is dead sober. And I don't trust him to be at the keyboard. Plus, he can't spell or type, so he has no chance at my keyboard.

Hope this helps,

Fred

Paul_Mon
01-15-2005, 08:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Jimmy B doesn't count, he is just your basic mean who sits down at the key board at times and spews his venom, <hr /></blockquote>I can honestly say that at this moment, I've been drinking for a few hours, and Jimmy B is dead sober. And I don't trust him to be at the keyboard. Plus, he can't spell or type, so he has no chance at my keyboard.

Hope this helps,

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, why don't you trust him? Is it the venom?

Paul Mon~~~pass the venom

highsea
01-15-2005, 09:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> The fact that popcorn mentioned that all cuemakers are not necessarily as ethical as we as customers would prefer, was intended as a general warning of the "caveat emptor" variety. <hr /></blockquote>
Popcorn's generalization is one of the things I disagree with most, in his post. He is saying that all cue makers are unscrupulous. I just don't believe that.<hr /></blockquote>
I did not get that impression. After reading my own post, I could have worded it more clearly. What I was trying to say is that "Not all cuemakers are as ethical as we would like them to be.", not "All cuemakers are not as ethical, etc.."

I too have heard horror stories about a couple big name cuemakers, but I would be doing them a disservice by reciting those stories in a public forum without personal and firsthand knowledge.

Rich R.
01-16-2005, 07:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> I too have heard horror stories about a couple big name cuemakers, but I would be doing them a disservice by reciting those stories in a public forum without personal and firsthand knowledge. <hr /></blockquote>

Highsea, I can certainly understand your position, however, Popcorn claims to have first hand information.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>
I will tell you a funny thing about deposits. I know a well known cue maker (Would never use his name) whose cues take years to get and people often give him deposits. I have seen him sell cues to people without almost any wait for a high price. What he is doing is selling cues that were ordered several years ago by another customer at today's prices and basically forgetting about the original customer. I actually heard him tell a customer who had waited like three years that the guy had to pay more now since the cues value has gone up.<hr /></blockquote>

Jimmy B
01-16-2005, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> . Jimmy B doesn't count, he is just your basic mean drunk who sits down at the key board at times and spews his venom, <hr /></blockquote>

I have over 400 posts here, they are all still up for everyone to read, what from my posts here would lead you to say this?? Sure I post drunk, all the time as a matter of fact, but still I haven't seen any venom as you put it and none of what I have said in this thread was mean spirited, so please explain how you came to your conclusion.

JB