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View Full Version : APA league Frustrations....



dooziexx
01-13-2005, 08:16 AM
This is my first session playing on an APA league and last nite was the last week of the regular season before the playoffs started. My team was in 2nd place trailing the 1st place team by 1 point. So last nite, the 1st place team's opponent decided to forfeit the entire nite hence handing the 1st place team 5 points and essentially became the division winner. This totally sucks. We totally got shafted and so did the 3rd and 4th place team because they all had a shot of winning the division since they trailed us by only a point. My captain immediately called the league operator and was told that there was nothing that they could do. Does this crap happens all time in APA leagues?? We busted our asses for 16 weeks to get a shot at taking first and this is how it ends?? How does it get handled by other leagues? Im thinking of quitting the league altogether.

The only good thing that came out of last nite was that I won the league MVP title...So its kind of a bitter sweet victory for me...

Deeman2
01-13-2005, 08:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dooziexx:</font><hr> This is my first session playing on an APA league and last nite was the last week of the regular season before the playoffs started. My team was in 2nd place trailing the 1st place team by 1 point. So last nite, the 1st place team's opponent decided to forfeit the entire nite hence handing the 1st place team 5 points and essentially became the division winner. This totally sucks. We totally got shafted and so did the 3rd and 4th place team because they all had a shot of winning the division since they trailed us by only a point. My captain immediately called the league operator and was told that there was nothing that they could do. Does this crap happens all time in APA leagues?? We busted our asses for 16 weeks to get a shot at taking first and this is how it ends?? How does it get handled by other leagues? Im thinking of quitting the league altogether.

The only good thing that came out of last nite was that I won the league MVP title...So its kind of a bitter sweet victory for me... <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Doozie,

First congratulations on your MVP win. All the leagues have problems but the case you state has to be frustrating. You can't blame the 1st place team as they were ready to play. On the other hand, it seems unfair that a non-playing team would help determine the outcome. It all goes back to the APA rules on forfeits which has always frustrated me when I played in APA. I now play in BCA but just to spend the time with my wife. It might help to know that one day, someone may forfeit to you in that same situation and you will be the beneficiary. Otherwise, I don't see a way to handle forfeits other than not count them at all which would be unfair to any team who had the most forfeits given to them. I have always thought maybe they should just award the forfeited to team their averave points won in a season but there may be problems with that as well.

Unfairness is funny. Last week in a local tournament I drew the other "player" here and he won the toss, broke and ran to put me in the loser's bracket. In the finals later, I won the toss and broke and ran out. Now, i have to beat him twice and he won the next toss, broke and ran out. I had not missed a ball all night, seven runouts and still got second place. This is a winner take all tournament so I felt a little bad at shooting perfect pool and losing. Two nights later different tournament, I draw the same guy. I win the toss (this is race to three - nine ball. He never comes to the table! He must have felt exactly the same way I had two nights before, all over a lost coin toss. The breaks in most things even out even if we don't like to admit it.

I've been on both sides of this issue so I just learned to grin and take it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif Again, congratulations to you and your team on a nice season.</font color>

Deeman
never heard anyone complain that they got a good roll....

Wally_in_Cincy
01-13-2005, 09:13 AM
I thought if a team forfeited the opposing team only got 3 points, same as a bye.

Anyway that sucks, and no this kind of nonsense does not happen in all APA leagues, at least not around here.

SpiderMan
01-13-2005, 09:51 AM
Although it is your first tendency to heap the blame on the team that forfeited, you should also consider why they did it. Unless your team is universally hated, most likely the first-place team and the forfeiting team were in on it together. Look for who's buying who a round of drinks at the awards ceremony. APA format seems to foster the thinking of "work the system to win at all costs".

SpiderMan

dooziexx
01-13-2005, 11:04 AM
Deeman,
Thanks for your input. I believe individual league operators have their own bylaws. They could make forfeits illegal by forcing teams to play. If they cant play on the regular night, then do make-up games during the week. It is an 8man team after all with 3 alternates.

Maybe the above resolution is not a good one as a whole. Im just pissed that we got shafted. And Im sure the other teams that got shafted too are pissed!

woody_968
01-13-2005, 11:17 AM
Congrats on the MVP!!!!

And no, your area is not the only one to have this problem. People say gambling gives pool a bad name, I say its actions like this that hold pool back. Pool players are known for "doing business" and that IMO is the dark side of our game.

I have to agree with spiderman here and say that I would be willing to bet that the winning team had some involvment in getting the team to forfeit.

woody_968
01-13-2005, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman2:</font><hr>
Unfairness is funny. Last week in a local tournament I drew the other "player" here and he won the toss, broke and ran to put me in the loser's bracket.

<hr /></blockquote>

Thats why I think people should lag for the break. You could win or lose from the break so I think some skill should be involved in deciding who gets to break instead of just the flip of a coin.

cheesemouse
01-13-2005, 12:59 PM
dooziexx,

Pool not only builds character it also exposes character. It's pretty hard to stop such goings on but atleast you know the character of those involved and can act accordingly......sad but true.....

cheese_ball
01-13-2005, 03:16 PM
I already like this guy doozie!

I've been saying it for a long time, APA SUCKS!!! It's a waste of time, and a breeding ground for drunks and poor pool playing. This league caters to the weaker players. It is NOT a serious pool league. Any night I have to show up after work and stick around a grimy bar for 4 hours to play 5-7 games is a waste of my time! Not to mention the shag carpet, a 5" rock, and all of the BS politics involved... moving handicaps around for no reason (a player on my team that hadn't played in 5 weeks suddenly jumped from a 4 to a 5)... awarding undeserved points, you guys get the idea.

There is only one good thing that the APA does. They provide a platform for beginning players to go out and have a good time drinking with their friends. That's the only positive thing that I can think of... and I'm stretching it a little! Anyone ever see that shirt.... "My drinking team has a pool problem." That shirt sums up the APA.

Ross
01-13-2005, 04:35 PM
In 8-ball I believe our local APA gives 3/5 for a complete forfeit. In 9-ball, I think it is 60/100 points.

No system can guarantee the exact results that would happen if the teams played, but 3/5 is fairer than 5/5. It guarantees the team that shows up a "winning record" for the night but it doesn't give them an unearned blow-out. For example, in your case, if they had used this system your team could have tied for 1st by winning 4/5, and taking sole possession of 1st by winning 5/5.

Besides being fairer, the 3/5 rule greatly reduces the likelihood of collusion or the appearance of collusion from taking place. I suggest talking to the league operator and ask him/her to at least change the rules for future sessions, since the issue will inevitably come up again.

GeraldG
01-13-2005, 04:59 PM
In the APA rulebook, page 21, it states: "Deliberate forfeits will not be tolerated. If the League Operator/Board of Governors is satisfied that the receiving team conspired to receive deliberate forfeit points, then the points would not be counted. Depending upon the situation and the evidence, either or both teams would be subject to other penalties."

If I were you, I might consider filing a written complaint to the League Operator.

That is NOT the way it's supposed to work.

woody_968
01-13-2005, 05:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheese_ball:</font><hr>
I've been saying it for a long time, APA SUCKS!!! It's a waste of time, and a breeding ground for drunks and poor pool playing. This league caters to the weaker players. It is NOT a serious pool league.

There is only one good thing that the APA does. They provide a platform for beginning players to go out and have a good time drinking with their friends. <hr /></blockquote>

Cheese, I have to question your strong anti-apa stance. Like you said, they are not a league that caters to strong players. That simply is not their market. But the market they have decided to go after they serve pretty well.

They not only give starting players a place to play, they often times are the reason some people start playing pool every week. And when people get in the habbit of playing pool it can get in them wanting to play better and learn the game.

While I no longer play in the APA (for some of the very reasons you talk about) I would never tell someone interested that they shouldnt play. I would tell them to play for a while and see if they like it. You and I obviously do not like the setup they have, but alot of people do have fun in the APA.

Any serious pool player that says they want to see the game grow would not be so harshly bashing a league that tries to support pool as much as the APA does. True, they are giving support with the goal of making money. But anyone that promotes pool should atleast have unbiased verbal support of pool players to allow new players to make their own decisions.

datplayer
01-13-2005, 07:06 PM
Here's my input from a team that has forfeited the last two weeks of our season.

Our LO put together a team to fill out our Tuesday night 8-ball. They were pretty much 5 guys that had never played in the league before, and I jumped in cause I wanted a team to keep my 8-ball status for singles. Needless to say, by the 10th week, I was the only one showing up for our matches. The other guys never really got into the APA, our record stunk, and all of them quit but me.

Other teams were pissed that points were given out, but what could I do? I wasn't the captain, and it's not like we could force these guys to come and play. No contracts are written by the league that forces the team to show up, at least that I know of.

Sometimes these things happen. I my circumstance, there was nothing that could have been done.

Rod
01-13-2005, 09:54 PM
Yes ,I agree Ross. Stuff just happens in league, sort it out with the LO or just give it up. People that play in leagues either just have fun or get serious. If they are serious, they have more trophys or plaques to dust off.

I hate dusting. LOL It goes into the trash pretty fast. Principal is the only thing to me that matters. I've won cues and all sorts of trophys but the only thing that matters is how I won.

Rod

onepocketfanatic
01-14-2005, 12:03 AM
Every league has it's problems. I play in a BCA 8 ball league. Until 2 years ago the format was such that a team could synch the match, and then throw the rest of the games to keep their average low.
Two years ago the particular league I play in changed the scoring such that you had to play every single round until the bitter end. No more sandbagging. The reason the change occurred was the players got fed up with the sandbagging, and someone made a motion to change the rules.
Of course the good teams did not like the changes, because they realized the handicap system would be more fair under the new system.
My suggestion is to make a motion in one of your meetings (we have captains meetings at the beginning and end of every season) to change the rules. That is what we did in our league, and it has made winning on all fronts much more diffictult. It used to be easy to sweep a team, but with the new system, it is now very difficult to win every round even if you are not playing a team that is not that great. It has made our league more competitive and a lot more fun. Good luck and hang in there.

cheese_ball
01-14-2005, 12:42 PM
Woody-

That's one way of looking at it I suppose. The APA does serve a purpose, and that sole purpose is to make money off of the entertainment industry. This league is not designed to improve a players game, but rather to entertain them for an evening a week while denting the old pocket book. I don't find this league to be a particularly good thing for the billiards community. It DOES provide a starting point for beginning players, but really doesn't provide any incentive to become better. With the current handicap system and rule set, it actually retards more people's game than it improves!

Anybody else like the idea of eliminating slop shots in favor of called pockets??? I think that at least 4 level players and beyond should be calling their shots. Then, maybe the APA would help teach people the game.

I think you had the right idea when you mentioned that the APA is a business. It's purpose? To suck as many people in as possible, and to make $$$$$. Can this goal be achieved along side of teaching people to play better pool, respect/love the game? Probably, though that doesn't seem to concern the league operators.

While I probably won't be encouraging any new players to join the APA, I wouldn't discourage them either. There HAVE been occasions where the APA has been successfull in teaching people the "love of the game," but unfortunately it's not very probable.

woody_968
01-14-2005, 04:53 PM
Cheese, I have to agree with everything in your post! I think some people in the APA do want to improve, in fact I have seen some post very proudly about when their handicap goes up. But for the most part I think people work even harder to keep their handicap down.

I have moved on to the VNEA league and am MUCH happier /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Woody

Angel_R
01-14-2005, 10:46 PM
Hey Erik!
I feel your frustration. When I joined the league this fall, I thought it was great that I was playing again and it was. That was until I started having to wait 4-5 hours to play and that was when I got a chance to play. I found that the handicap league does not reward the player that works hard and ends up with a 7 handicap. I found myself driving the distance to play only to sit because the numbers would go over the limit if I play, unless we forfeit a game. Don't get me wrong, I like my teammates, but I joined to play. Then comes the night of listening to drunks fighting about this or that and playing a 4 or 5 that I swear should be at the very least a 6. That's why I'm not playing in our APA league again. I plan on driving to Algonquin and play at Mainstreet Billard in a non-handicap APA triple play league race to 7, which includes 8-ball and 9-ball. At least I'll get my playing time and it will be on a 9ft table and less drunks and a better atmosphere from bar to bar. Sorry about the forfeit, but since a number of the guys in this league play to keep their handicap down, I would expect what they did to your team. Congrats on the MVP

jjinfla
01-15-2005, 06:00 AM
It's sorta senseless to criticize the APA - it's what it is. You either like it or you don't. For many people it is just a night out with the guys/gals. The rest of the week they have a job they have to take care of to support their families. Many of them care less about really playing well (although when they watch the pros on TV they all think they can beat them). But the majority of them don't even know or follow the pros and have no real idea how skillful they really are.

APA 8 ball is not for me. Takes too long and is a waste of time if you lose your match and is really not designed properly for a team sport. The only way you can help your team is by winning. And not being able to win for a weak player can be very frustrating.

APA 9-ball on the other hand is a lot of fun. Everyone on the team can contribute to a "team" victory. As captain I enjoy making the proper matchups to give our team the best chance. Sometimes it does get frustrating to watch one of our 1's miss a BIH shot when the Ob is only 8" from the pocket. And then the next time make an impossible table length straight in shot.

Where can you have so much fun for only $7 a night?

Our team, the "Strokers and the Pokers" finished 2nd last session and is in 1st place in this session. Not bad for a team where the average age is 68. I wonder if that is an APA record?

Jake

GeraldG
01-15-2005, 08:41 AM
I agree, the APA's league play does what it intends to do. It is a good thing for players coming up and to give people a place to go once a week and have fun with their friends and play pool.

I disagree with the idea that it somehow stifles improvement. I think it accomplishes it's mission, and does it very well. It is not INTENDED to give an edge or advantage to more accomplished players, it is not designed for more accomplished players. In fact, the rules are designed to allow the more beginning player to play and be competetive. This ENCOURAGES improvement.

When people first start out in the league as a SL1 or SL2, their main objective is to be a SL3. They work hard at improving because they seem to be a little embarrassed at playing as a 1 or 2. Then they get moved to SL3. Now they have to start producing a little. They are sort of stuck in a quandry...if they don't compete well as a SL3, they might get moved back down to SL2 (OUCH!!). Here is where you see the most imrovement in a player. It's just enough pressure to make them really buckle down and listen to coaching and practice and improve their game. They generally improve so much at this level that by the time they get moved to SL4, they can comfortably play at that level. Now, if they are inclined to sandbag, this is where you'll see it. They don't want to move to SL5. The ones that want to improve will continue to do so, the ones that want to find a comfort zone will want to stay here. It is my job as a team captain and coach to make sure that doesn't happen. Even if it causes me a problem with having too many 4's and 5's, I have to keep them playing honestly and progressing through the ranks. That's what protects the integrity of the system. Sometimes you just have to suggest that one of them is ready to break off and form his own team. Then you replace him with another SL1 or SL2 and start again.

The more accomplished players have their place in APA league. I get my fun from the APA by helping the newer players, coaching them, helping them plan the strategy for the matches and watching them come up through the ranks. Once you get to a SL6 or higher, you're probably not going to play as much. That's a fact of life. The rules only allow for one senior player (SL6 or higher) to play in a match. If there is more than one Senior player on a team, then you can expect to play half the time or less. That's OK with me. If I want to play, there are plenty of tournaments around town. You really need two senior players on the roster, because nobody can make it to every match.

I think it is incorrect to criticize the APA because it doesn't favor the more accomplished players. That is exactly the way it was intended and it works very well, IMHO. Senior players should be participating in the APA for the purpose of helping junior players more than anything else.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-15-2005, 08:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> ... Not bad for a team where the average age is 68. I wonder if that is an APA record?

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake, I played a 72-year-old guy in our 14.1 league Thursday and he ran 25 and out on me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

He's a cagey veteran /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

jjinfla
01-15-2005, 08:53 AM
Well said Gerald.

Did they change the rule for higher skill levels? It was two can play a night, not only one. (In 9-ball). I hope they didn't change it.

Jake

Wally_in_Cincy
01-15-2005, 08:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Well said Gerald.

Did they change the rule for higher skill levels? It was two can play a night, not only one. (In 9-ball). I hope they didn't change it.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know about 9-ball.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr>

..The rules only allow for one senior player (SL6 or higher) to play in a match. <hr /></blockquote>

There is no such rule in 8-ball. You can play 7-6-6-2-2 if you want to.

WaltVA
01-15-2005, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Well said Gerald.

Did they change the rule for higher skill levels? It was two can play a night, not only one. (In 9-ball). I hope they didn't change it.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know about 9-ball.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr>

..The rules only allow for one senior player (SL6 or higher) to play in a match. <hr /></blockquote>

There is no such rule in 8-ball. You can play 7-6-6-2-2 if you want to. <hr /></blockquote>

The "Senior Players" rule only applies to 9-ball, and says only two senior players (6 or higher S/L)can play in a match. Wally's right - in 8-ball you can play any combination that stays under 23-total limit.

Gerald's post is right on - locally, most higher level players still in the league have accepted a mentoring role and don't expect to play much, just coach, advise and work with newer players who show an interest in really learning and improving their game.

Walt in VA

GeraldG
01-15-2005, 09:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Well said Gerald.

Did they change the rule for higher skill levels? It was two can play a night, not only one. (In 9-ball). I hope they didn't change it.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

No, Jake...you are correct. I'm not sure exactly why I typed that. You can play 2 senior level players in a match. In our case, we can seldom post more than one because we don't have enough 2's and 3's...we would end up going over 23.

The rules get a little tricky with this in playoffs...in playoffs, you only have to go to 50 points and 3 won matches out of 5. So, if you win your first 3 matches and then get to 50 points in the 4th match, the game is over. That means that you could conceivably post 3 7's in the first three matches, win those, and then only need a couple of match points to take the game. Then you post a good 2 and let them get the few balls they need. But there is another rule that prohibits using three senior players for the first 3 matches (page 34, paragraph 2). So, you have to be careful and be able to show that if you DID have to play all 5 matches, you could have done it without exceeding 23 points.

WaltVA
01-15-2005, 09:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GeraldG:</font><hr>...The rules get a little tricky with this in playoffs...in playoffs, you only have to go to 50 points and 3 won matches out of 5. So, if you win your first 3 matches and then get to 50 points in the 4th match, the game is over. That means that you could conceivably post 3 7's in the first three matches, win those, and then only need a couple of match points to take the game. Then you post a good 2 and let them get the few balls they need. But there is another rule that prohibits using three senior players for the first 3 matches (page 34, paragraph 2). So, you have to be careful and be able to show that if you DID have to play all 5 matches, you could have done it without exceeding 23 points. <hr /></blockquote>

Gerald, I think you're mixing 8-ball and 9-ball rules here. In 9-ball playoffs, first team to 51 points wins; the only way the number of matches won figures in is if there is a 50-50 tie (Page 66,Sec.6); then the team who won 3 matches is the winner. The rule that you can't play more than 2 senior level players is in effect at all times in 9-ball, regular session or playoffs.

The rule you cite about not shooting 3 S/L7's only applies to 8-ball, where the first team to win 3 matches wins. As you stated, you have to show that you could have played all 5 matches, if necessary, and stayed under the 23 rule. So 7-6-6-2-2 or 7-7-5-2-2 are the strongest possible combinations.

Walt in VA

GeraldG
01-15-2005, 11:26 AM
Actually, if you get to 50 points in 9-ball playoffs in your 4th match and have won 3 matches, you win. The other team can't beat you at that point. We won like that weekend before last. You're right, 51 points is a win, but in the playoffs, as you pointed out, in the event of a 50-50 tie, the team with 3 matches won gets the win. The thinking is that if you get to that point where you already have 50 points in the 4th match and 3 matches won, then there's no way the other team can beat you. In this case, we had the first 3 matches won and when we got to 50 points in the 4th match, the other team was at 27 points. There was no possibility that they could beat us at that point. The LO is the one that called the match over at that point and the other team agreed.

They did, however, voice at least 2 complaints that I know about (and maybe a 3rd one) concerning the SL of our players. This is not unusual. We have an average of one complaint a week leveled against us. That just means I'm doing my job. We practice to play the best pool we can and to be the best team in our division. The more people complaining about how well we play, the better. It's up to the APA to keep our skill levels where they should be. As I said, I make it a point, once a session at least, to call the LO and ask them to review our skill levels. They have all of the data concerning how we've played.

The reason I do that is because of a bad experience several years ago. I was new to APA (had been playing BCA). The team I was playing on had made it all the way through the season in first place. We scorched the team we played in the Division Cup, then when we went to the Cities, we didn't lose a match...not a single one. We were in the finals...the one that would decide whether we went to Vegas or not. We had absolutely anhilated the all-female team (read what you want here) that we played the match before. We were in the third match of the final (and had won the first 2 and the 3rd one was well under control) and the all-female team (read what you want here) that we had beaten the day before decided to come back and watch this match and try to get the team we were playing to protest to get us disqualified. It worked. The APA decided to rerate 3 of us in the middle of the match. They moved 2 of us up one SL and one of us got moved up 2 SLs. That disqualified us and got us a 2-year suspension. Here's the thing.. we were NOT sandbagging. We had trusted that the APA would have us at the skill levels we should be playing at and we simply practiced our heads off and played the best pool we knew how to play. Because the APA was BEHIND in reviewing skill levels, we had to suffer. I still think there may have been a little politics involved, too...but I can't prove that. I vowed not to ever let that happen again. I would rather have everyone on my team playing a skill level HIGHER than they should be. So, I call the LO every session and request that they review all of our skill levels. I call them again, right before the playoffs and ask the to make sure that if anyone is due to go up that they do it NOW.

My response to the other teams when they cry and complain like that is "If you don't want to lose, don't play us. If we can, we are going to beat you every time we play. If you happen to beat us, we won't cry about it, we'll just come back and beat you next time."