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stickman
01-16-2005, 10:24 PM
How many have dual additions? (pool and poker) I play the free Texas holdem poker tournaments. We have them 4 nights a week, even though, I only play 3 nights. So far, I've been able to enjoy both. Sometimes I have to choose whether to play pool or poker. Pool normally wins out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

nhp
01-17-2005, 03:38 AM
I play 'holdem poker on occasion, usually the low-limit games at the local casino, like $3-6 or $4-8. It's fun sometimes, but some times the game can be very frustrating. Playing with people who can't throw away every hand can be good and bad, depending on what cards you're getting.

Sidepocket
01-18-2005, 03:01 PM
We are usually able to enjoy both!! If we are playing a Texas Hold-em tourny, we have a max of 2 re-buys. If you are out early, you get to warm up on the pool table before the next one out of poker. Then the betting continues on the pool table.

Ross
01-18-2005, 04:44 PM
Funny you should mention that. Recently I've cut back my pool in favor of poker. Never expected to do that, but I can see myself getting addicted to poker for awhile.

But I think the poker craze will die down in a couple of years or so. I mean there will always be poker, but the popularity it has now is nothing short of amazing. Did you know that on pokerparty.com there are about 15,000-40,000 people playing at a time, 24-7? I think there are a couple more sites that have over 10,000 playing at at time as well. I did a quick mental calculation and I think partypoker.com is making literally millions of dollars/week on rake fees.

An extremely talented young local top player (wins many of our local regional events, has beaten top pros) told me a few months ago he is down on pool. He says he can't make any money at it and he is making much more playing poker. And last week another good (but not top) local player told me he now makes his living totally from playing poker.

Interesting times...

SpiderMan
01-18-2005, 04:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>
An extremely talented young local top player (wins many of our local regional events, has beaten top pros) told me a few months ago he is down on pool. He says he can't make any money at it and he is making much more playing poker. And last week another good (but not top) local player told me he now makes his living totally from playing poker.

Interesting times... <hr /></blockquote>

Are they plaing in casinos, online, tournaments, private games, or what? "Making a living" is impressive, unless their standards are really low.

SpiderMan

JPB
01-18-2005, 05:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> Funny you should mention that. Recently I've cut back my pool in favor of poker. Never expected to do that, but I can see myself getting addicted to poker for awhile.

But I think the poker craze will die down in a couple of years or so. I mean there will always be poker, but the popularity it has now is nothing short of amazing. Did you know that on pokerparty.com there are about 15,000-40,000 people playing at a time, 24-7? I think there are a couple more sites that have over 10,000 playing at at time as well. I did a quick mental calculation and I think partypoker.com is making literally millions of dollars/week on rake fees.

An extremely talented young local top player (wins many of our local regional events, has beaten top pros) told me a few months ago he is down on pool. He says he can't make any money at it and he is making much more playing poker. And last week another good (but not top) local player told me he now makes his living totally from playing poker.

Interesting times... <hr /></blockquote>


I played poker all weekend after not playing for a while. The boom has brought in many bad players. Which is good. But the seeds of the collapse are there already. Online poker will help keep things going becaus ethe rake is low and players will learn to lose slower. However, I noticed a couple of things. I clocked the rake for an hour I played in a low limit game. They dropped $89 the first hour I was in it. Just about the same as in the 15-30 across the room, which I only played in for a short while this weekend. The game was 9 handed so we were paying a theoretical $10/hr each. But of course the bad players pay more rake. And then there's a bad beat drop, but I neglected that because players recover some of that. Then the players tip a lot $1 per hand even on small pots. Then cocktail tips. Figure $125/hr is leaving that table. I don't know how long the bad players will last when they are long term losers and are paying all that overhead. As the games get tougher people will be long term losers even after they play some online and read some books. Fortunately the games were very beatable anyway, but that may change as bad players get pounded and quit.

No limit seemed to be going. They had a time charge that I think was $10/hr/player. Not bad if you can beat it. But every time no limit has been the game there have been problems. People will lose their money faster and in big hunks and get discouraged. Hasn't happened yet and the new limited buy in live no limit games will slow the bleeding down. But people who are new to poker and decide to play live 2-5 NL are going to hit some real ugly streaks. We'll see how long they will last.

Pool needs to stay alive until people figure out how good the game is. Most players can't beat poker for significant money and they will eventually figure that out. Poker isn't even zero-sum in the casinos, it is negative sum. As people find they are losers (they won't admit it but will tell you they break even or are a little ahead) they will drift away from poker. Poker will survive of course, but I doubt the current level will last more than 5 years or so. Pool is a worthwhile game whether you profit or not. Poker really isn't all that fun after a while. Winning players keep going because they are winning. But bad poker players are crazy to keep playing if they are physically capable of playing another game. Any other game.

SpiderMan
01-19-2005, 09:38 AM
Poker and sports book are two of the few "Casino Games" where you are not destined to lose. Of course you have to be better than the other players.

In most casino games, the house must lose in order for you to win, so don't expect that to happen over the long term. In poker and parimutuel betting, other players must lose in order for you to win, and that's fine with the house because they get theirs off the top anyway.

SpiderMan

Ross
01-19-2005, 10:40 AM
Spiderman, I didn't ask the first guy I mentioned where he played. But the one who is making a living at it has both a weekly private game at his house and also plays online. He is a sharp guy with a stong aversion to regular work. I don't know how much he makes at it. Just enough to get by is my guess-- maybe I'll ask him next time I see him. He was a shrewd gambler at pool as well --he would never get into a bad game.

JPB
01-19-2005, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Poker and sports book are two of the few "Casino Games" where you are not destined to lose. Of course you have to be better than the other players.

In most casino games, the house must lose in order for you to win, so don't expect that to happen over the long term. In poker and parimutuel betting, other players must lose in order for you to win, and that's fine with the house because they get theirs off the top anyway.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Of course. And the catch is being better than the other players enough to overcome the rake and maintain a bankroll.

The problem is that many of the players brought to poker by the boom only understand the first concept you mentioned, and not the catch. They do not understand how good they have to play to beat the game for a significant sum. Nor do they understand standard deviation or the relationship of their EV, their bankroll, and their standard devition. The first hump they have to get over is the overhead, rakes and tokes. If they play well enough to overcome this, they then are a theoretical break even player. But even players necessarily have big standard deviations because they have no EV. So their bankrolls will swing. A lot. And if they think you are supposed to make one big bet per hour they will be shocked when they lose 400 big bets and may not like the game so much anymore. They don't know that they aren't supposed to make one BB/hr, and that some very good players make less, particularly as you move up in limits. You have to be an extremely good player to beat a las vegas 20-40 for $30 an hour. So if your EV in the game is really $3/hr, and not the theoretical $40 you read in a book, you can expect some major losing streaks. And the games are getting more aggressive as people watch TV and learn to play some. So the swings go up. So lets take a new player with one year of experience who has played some on the internet and can win in some low limit games who tries to step up to 15-30. And they can overcome the rake and tokes and make $6/hr. Then they go on a $12000 losing streak. This is going to happen over and over. Excellent players can expect $9000 losing streaks in a 15 game from time to time. And I mean long term winners with maybe a $25/hr EV. How many people you know really enjoy losing 12-15K? How do they feel afterwards? Might they switch hobbies? Trust me this will happen. Not might happen. Will happen.

The poker boom is great, but people have been trying to play poker for a living for years and have been getting busted. Most fail. And now the games are tougher in some respects. Your competition comprises experienced players, rocket scientists, game theory experts, computer geniuses, etc... So as people move up in limits they will start getting hurt and many of them will quietly quit the game. Many of the people who can't afford to move up will get sick of the low limit games or slowly get ground down even in those. At some point it just isn't fun to grind in a LL game. Look at the people who have. Poker will last, but not at the level of poularity it enjoys now. Many of the "bandwagon" players are going to lose enough money to force them to quietly give up poker. Others just won't like it enough to stick with it long term and will just be occasional recreational players.

Ross
01-19-2005, 01:30 PM
I had the same assessment. New players will get in for awhile before they realize they can't win against the better players. Then things will slow down. I also agree that poker is fun for awhile but then gets more like a job that pays so much per hour. And not that interesting of a job either.

nolimit9ball
01-19-2005, 07:19 PM
Why choose one or the other???

The folks at GSN are producing a new television show called "NO LIMIT 9 BALL." it takes the gambling aspect of poker and puts it in a 9 ball format. We are currently casting people for the show, and a 1 in 4 chance to win $20,000!!!! For more information check out our website at www.nolimit9ball.com (http://www.nolimit9ball.com)

Kato
01-22-2005, 12:26 AM
I have a $25 no-limit game at my place every other Saturday night at 8 p.m. If any of you are ever going to be in town I keep open 2 "swing seats" out of 8. It pays out the top 2 spots. Afterwards we have 3 or 4 $5 five card draw games that are absolutely insane. Usually at least 6 players stick around for that one. Bring your own drink, I supply the rest.

Kato